Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[Chester]

I have been and are saved by grace through faith - it is God in His grace that saves, faith is the channel.

.

because what God has begun He continues. But this is NOT what scripture actually says.




but it is NOT your salvation to lose, it is God's. and God does not make your faith a condition of it. It is provided by grace, God's unmerited favour,. You simply receive it through faith. If that were not so it would not be a free gift, it would be offered on the condition of your faith, and your faith would have become a work



but you do, you require the work of 'faith'.

Mr. Valiant, I appreciate your input and your trying to correct my "poor" doctrine by your standards.

But your last point is what some have been saying is the problem:

I said , "I do not believe in a works salvation" - You said, "but you do, you require the work of 'faith'"

I said I don't believe something and you said I do! That makes people angry! And the point of the post was that I was trying to get someone to acknowledge and be OK that I do believe this even if it doesn't make any sense to them.

Now to your credit you explain your reasoning by saying that faith is a 'work'. I understand your point. But it might have been better to say something like:

It is OK if you think this (above) is not a works salvation, but to me even 'faith' is a work, and to me that seems like you are requiring works.

Just a suggestion (to all) to keep the tempers from flaring so much . . .

Hey, your smiley face really helped too -- and really, I am OK with your post because I sensed a good attitude!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Angela, if you could trust the Catholic Church to be guarded by the Holy Spirit when putting together the Bible, don't you feel that they would be able to interpret that same book truthfully?

I'm a protestant evangelical investigating the claims of the Catholic Church; So far, they've provided the best interpretation for me on obscure passages that are hard to understand. I think deep in your heart, the Lord is speaking to you and you are not satisfied with the protestant interpretations that all seem to not agree about what the parable is about.

If you'd like a catholic commentary from a reputable catholic study bible, I'll be more than glad to post the notes for you if you are interested.

1 the catholic church did not put together the bible God did.
2. Any human organization that takes credit for anything, Run far far away from. For they are not from God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I must say some of these opinions have swayed my view but as I'm searching there's verses that keep coming to mind that make me continue believing what I do. A scripture that has come to mind is the parable of the virgins and also the parable of the talents in Matthew 25. There were brides who weren't ready. A servant who didn't obey his master. What happened to the servant? What he had got taken away from him. And he was thrown into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

All men are given talents, That can not use them unless God blesses them (they must be saved first) We all have gifts.

The women who were not ready did not get to go because they did not have the oil (oil is a representative of the HS all through scripture) IE, they were never saved.

 

[UnderGrace]

Mr. Valiant, I appreciate your input and your trying to correct my "poor" doctrine by your standards.

But your last point is what some have been saying is the problem:

I said , "I do not believe in a works salvation" - You said, "but you do, you require the work of 'faith'"

I said I don't believe something and you said I do! That makes people angry! And the point of the post was that I was trying to get someone to acknowledge and be OK that I do believe this even if it doesn't make any sense to them.

Now to your credit you explain your reasoning by saying that faith is a 'work'. I understand your point. But it might have been better to say something like:

It is OK if you think this (above) is not a works salvation, but to me even 'faith' is a work, and to me that seems like you are requiring works.

Just a suggestion (to all) to keep the tempers from flaring so much . . .

Hey, your smiley face really helped too -- and really, I am OK with your post because I sensed a good attitude!

Faith is not a work, nor a gift, and it is not meritorious when it happens, it is simply being persuaded and convinced about what we have been told. When we believing in Jesus for eternal life, we have become persuaded that Jesus, as the author and finisher of our faith, loves us, forgives us, and freely grants eternal life to us, not because of anything we have done but simply and only because of God’s grace toward us.

The more we are persuaded and believe God’s truth then we move from faith to faith.

For example future faith builds upon our former faith.

Believing simple and elementary things allows us to later believe more difficult and hard things. This is what the Bible means when it talks about going from “faith to faith” Rom 1:17). But even this ongoing, sanctifying faith is not a work.

 

[oyster67]

Will not Jesus leave the 99 to go after the one who strays? If you jump ship, He's going in after you.

To hog-tie me and drag me back up onto the ship against my will? Don't think so. The Prodigal son returned because he chose to. If he had refused to do so, it would have been a sad ending indeed. The NT is full of warnings telling Christian to abide in the vine and walk carefully, lest he himself end up a castaway because of his own neglect.

 

[LaurenTM]

Will not Jesus leave the 99 to go after the one who strays? If you jump ship, He's going in after you.

what some members here seem to fail to realize, is that salvation is OF God, from beginning to end

and yes, Jesus will most certainly go out of His way for one person. the Bible is full of stories like that

sometimes people walk away because of the cruelty of other 'believers' or really bad teaching that leaves you cold and wondering where God is

there is such a thing as 'cold' love

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To hog-tie me and drag me back up onto the ship against my will? Don't think so. The Prodigal son returned because he chose to. If he had refused to do so, it would have been a sad ending indeed. The NT is full of warnings telling Christian to abide in the vine and walk carefully, lest he himself end up a castaway because of his own neglect.

lol..

God does not have to hog tie anyone.. Who would want to leave him, and not come back?

The prodigal was the son,, He never stopped being the son, And if he died, His father would have taken his body and brought it home..

The prodigal son is about the father's love, not the son.

 

[UnderGrace]

To hog-tie me and drag me back up onto the ship against my will? Don't think so. The Prodigal son returned because he chose to. If he had refused to do so, it would have been a sad ending indeed. The NT is full of warnings telling Christian to abide in the vine and walk carefully, lest he himself end up a castaway because of his own neglect.

Isn’t interesting that Jesus did not make the story about forcing the son to come back or even about if the son had never returned.

Probably because that is not even the point of the story. We always want to make it about self.

The story magnifies God and who He is. Jesus is teaching a great truth about God’s love.

 

[oyster67]

I have come to the utter most conclusion that the doctrine of believing that you can lose your salvation is one the, if not THE, most destructive doctrine infecting the body. I pray in Jesus name, and with all the strength my soul can muster, that my brothers and sisters in Christ will be free from the inevitable condemnation that the fruit of that doctrine bears, and embrace the Truth that IT IS FINISHED! And rest in Jesus with that knowledge. Peace love and Grace to you all.

Even though we disagree about OSAS, I am blessed by your appreciation for the grace Jesus extended to us when He died on the cross. There is power in that blood. There is no power in our works (perhaps some of you thought I believed that?) He will never leave or forsake his children. He loved us before we loved Him. I want to assure you that I do not obey Him and honour Him out of a spirit of fear, or even obligation. I serve Him because I love Him. We have more in common than we do in difference.

 

[oyster67]

I do not see how anyone saved by grace through faith in A god who would never ever fail them would ever lose faith. is my point.

I also believe a salvation can be lost must be earned..

I can not judge you anyway.. You probably are my brother. if you start talking repent of every sin, or any sin though, WATCH OUT lol JK

On your first point; Yes, I too find it hard to believe anyone would do such a thing. But I think the Bible (many places in the NT) says it is possible.

On your second point; Just because I believe that salvation can be tossed away by a rebel does not mean that I believe in a works-based salvation. I do not. By grace and grace alone are we saved. All power is in the blood. There is no power in our works. I believe that salvation can be lost when a man begins to cultivate a rebellious attitude and refuses to confess and repent of that.

Lastly, I do not believe that every time I slip and make a mistake that I have lost my salvation. I would be a nervous wreck if I believed this way. I have peace and joy and am glad to have you as my brother. God bless you.

 

[valiant]

Faith is not a work, nor a gift, and it is not meritorious when it happens, it is simply being persuaded and convinced about what we have been told.

True saving faith is worked in us by God. It is not just being 'persuaded and convinced' about what we have been told which results in 'believing'. That kind of 'faith' will not survive very long against the subtlety of the devil (John 2.23-25).

Saving faith results from being given to the Son by the Father.(John 6.39-40). It is a God inworked gift,

When we believing in Jesus for eternal life, we have become persuaded that Jesus, as the author and finisher of our faith, loves us, forgives us, and freely grants eternal life to us, not because of anything we have done but simply and only because of God’s grace toward us.

Many believe that for whom it is not true. We may come to a belief about that 'by persuasion' and change our minds 6 months later. It is only a God inworked faith that will stand the test,

The more we are persuaded and believe God’s truth then we move from faith to faith.

Saving faith is once for all. It does not need building up.

For example future faith builds upon our former faith.

That is a different type of faith, it is not saving faith. It is faith in what God will do now we are saved

Believing simple and elementary things allows us to later believe more difficult and hard things. This is what the Bible means when it talks about going from “faith to faith” Rom 1:17). But even this ongoing, sanctifying faith is not a work.

It does not speak of 'going from faith to faith'. It declares that we have revealed to us the righteousness of God by faith which is revealed to faith. The whole passage is about the righteousness of God by faith. It is speaking about justification, NOT sanctification,,

 

[valiant]

On your first point; Yes, I too find it hard to believe anyone would do such a thing. But I think the Bible (many places in the NT) says it is possible.

what God has saved is saved for ever, otherwise He has not saved. He does the saving, not us, we are simply the saved

On your second point; Just because I believe that salvation can be tossed away by a rebel does not mean that I believe in a works-based salvation. I do not. By grace and grace alone are we saved. All power is in the blood. There is no power in our works. I believe that salvation can be lost when a man begins to cultivate a rebellious attitude and refuses to confess and repent of that.

you have a strange ides of pre conversion man. He can only be saved by grace alone. He already has a rebellious attitude and refuses to confess and repent. So what's the difference. God's grace will never give up. It is ALL of God,

Lastly, I do not believe that every time I slip and make a mistake that I have lost my salvation. I would be a nervous wreck if I believed this way. I have peace and joy and am glad to have you as my brother. God bless you.

well you may not believe it but if you are His, God will never let you go however rebellious you become.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

On your first point; Yes, I too find it hard to believe anyone would do such a thing. But I think the Bible (many places in the NT) says it is possible.

This is where we disagree,, I see alot of places where it says people in he church are really not saved, and they will walk away.. So we must be careful we are not one of them. But I see no place where a person can lose faith (saving faith).. In fact we see (at least I do) the opposite.

On your second point; Just because I believe that salvation can be tossed away by a rebel does not mean that I believe in a works-based salvation. I do not. By grace and grace alone are we saved. All power is in the blood. There is no power in our works. I believe that salvation can be lost when a man begins to cultivate a rebellious attitude and refuses to confess and repent of that.

To me, this is a work. A man must work hard to not cultivate this rebellious attitude, especially since in our flesh (our carnal selves) this is a normal response to everything God..

I was a prodigal child for 5 years, Basically because i lost faith in my church, and thus God,

I never once thought I lost salvation, or stopped being the child, and I felt Gods chastening the whole time.. It was when I finaly had to get on me knees I thank you God) that I came back.. Not because I all of a sudden found faith again, But because I knew I was away from home, and needed to return..

Lastly, I do not believe that every time I slip and make a mistake that I have lost my salvation. I would be a nervous wreck if I believed this way. I have peace and joy and am glad to have you as my brother. God bless you.

Praise God. Because this would be horrific, And sadly I know so many who do believe this. What hope is there in this kind of Gospel? All one could do is water down the law so they fit in, or deny alot of what they are doing is sin at all. Or give up and leave god (I have witnessed all three responses)

 

[valiant]

To hog-tie me and drag me back up onto the ship against my will? Don't think so.

When God draws you back He will make you willing. He did it when you were unsaved.

The Prodigal son returned because he chose to. If he had refused to do so, it would have been a sad ending indeed..

a parable is not a good place to get overall doctrine. It illustrates one point

The NT is full of warnings telling Christian to abide in the vine and walk carefully, lest he himself end up a castaway because of his own neglect.

It tells him to abide in the vine and produce fruit to prove that he is a possessor and not just a professor.

who said Paul would have been lost just because he failed in his ministry? 1 cor 3 deals with a similar case

 

[PeterJens]

A thought

I have been accused of miss-representing people and their beliefs. Now the problem I was
told was I was saying what they personally believed and was getting it wrong. I should only
say what I believed.

It struck me with redefining the meaning of words, the confusion of interpretation of how
concepts are built this is like saying ones own propoganda is the only expression allowed.
This is dangerous, because it allows people to say what they like without an honest response
from the other side. So how many words have been redefined?

1. Repentance
2. Confession
3. Righteousness
4. Sin
5. Jesus's work
6. The kingdom of God
7. Legalism
8. Walking in the Spirit
9. New birth
10. Holiness
11. Perfection
12. Forgiveness
13. The cross
14. The old covenant
15. The new covenant
16. The believer
17. The spoken word of the believer
18. Gods authority
19. Talking with the dead
20. The power of miracles, healing
21. The role of wealth
22. Love

After many months of interaction, the list above shows almost everything
is changed. Now this is subtle and also a full scale assault on a culture of faith.

So if one does not recognise what appears to be brothers and sisters is actually
something else, it can get very confusing.

Now to those wanting this to be a splitting of spiritual kingdoms within the body
their intention is very obvious, and their condemnation very strong.

So just me pointing this out, is deemed as something wrong. They accept their
view is insulting to the "religious", that their goal is to win over the lost, to expose
the "others", to set free the prisoners.

No longer is the goal sin to set people free from, but "legalism."
These are people who are not what they appear to be.

I am hyper-sensitive to this approach because when arguing with muslims, it
because apparent they rejected love as expressed in Christ and life and emphasised
a true legalistic view of absolute justice, which is brutal and insane.

What this group appear to support is hyper-grace with a total rejection of
formalism and structure with an emphasis on mysticism and the group dynamic.

Doing this is hard because God instituted formalism within the temple and Israel,
which though is a shadow of things is also relevant.

 

[garee]

Faith is not a work, nor a gift, and it is not meritorious when it happens, it is simply being persuaded and convinced about what we have been told.

Faith is the work as a labor of Christ love of an unseen God working in us to both will and do His good pleasure .His faith (not of our selves) freely gives us ears to hear His spiritual words .Like those used in parables. They are designed to hide the spiritual meaning of some(natural man) while revealing it to His kingdom of priests. The believers. We simply cannot be persuade and convinced unless he gives us ears to hear his spiritual words.

 

[FreeNChrist]

To hog-tie me and drag me back up onto the ship against my will? Don't think so.

Friend you are His possession now. He has bought you at a great price to Himself. You are no longer your own. And you should thank God for all of that.

The Prodigal son returned because he chose to. If he had refused to do so, it would have been a sad ending indeed.

Do you think for a moment that Jesus, who is the father figure in that analogy, did not know that the son would come to his senses and return?? Why do you think he was continually awaiting the son's return?? And the son learned much through that experience, wouldn't you say? God's timing is not our timing.

The NT is full of warnings telling Christian to abide in the vine and walk carefully, lest he himself end up a castaway because of his own neglect.

The NT is full of exhortations to walk as who we now are, and not as who we used to be. Not because we will be changed back into who we were and sent to hell, but because it is foolish and damaging to us and others in so many ways not to.

 

[oyster67]

(Matt 7:13 [KJV])
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

(Matt 7:14 [KJV])
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Private interpretations abound, but none of these sandcastles will stand in the end.

 

[LaurenTM]

(Matt 7:13 [KJV])
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

(Matt 7:14 [KJV])
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Private interpretations abound, but none of these sandcastles will stand in the end.

wonder if Jesus sits in heaven with a marker in one hand and an eraser in the other

a person might get that impression sometimes

 

[FreeNChrist]

(Matt 7:13 [KJV])
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

(Matt 7:14 [KJV])
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Private interpretations abound, but none of these sandcastles will stand in the end.

It's Jesus. He is the Way. And every believer has found Him.