Whats the deal with Catholics?

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May 26, 2016
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Dear God 4Me

Your still getting confused. The answer to your question depends on your definition of faith. Let me explain as their is history to it.
Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term “faith” is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19
, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).
However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.
A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word “formed” to clarify the nature of the faith in “sola fide” renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.
Why, then, do Catholics not use the ther in this regard, we would have to say, “Jesus is not God.” Obviously, the Church could not have people running around saying “Jesus is God” and “Jesus is not God,” though both would be perfectly consistent with the Trinity depending on how the term “God” is being used (i.e., as a noun or a proper name for the Father). Hopeless confusion (and charges of heresy, and bloodbaths) would have resulted in the early centuries if the Church did not specify the meaning of the term “God” when used in this context.
Of course, the Bible uses the term “God” in both senses, but to avoid confusion (and heretical misunderstandings on the part of the faithful, who could incline to either Arianism or Modalism if they misread the word “God” in the above statements) it later became necessary to adopt one usage over the other when discussing the identity of Jesus.
A similar phenomenon occurs in connection with the word “faith.” Evangelical leaders know this by personal experience since they have to continually fight against antinomian understandings of the term “faith” (and the corresponding antinomian evangelistic practices and false conversions that result). Because “faith” is such a key term, it is necessary that each theological school have a fixed usage of it in practice, even though there is more than one use of the term in the Bible. Evangelical leaders, in response to the antinomianism that has washed over the American church scene in the last hundred and fifty years, are attempting to impose a uniform usage to the term “faith” in their community to prevent these problems. (And may they have good luck in this, by the way.)
This leads me to why Catholics do not use the formula “faith alone.” Given the different usages of the term “faith” in the Bible, the early Church had to decide which meaning would be treated as normative. Would it be the Galatians 5 sense or the Romans 14/James 2 sense? The Church opted for the latter for several reasons:
First, the Romans 14 sense of the term pistis is frankly the more common in the New Testament. It is much harder to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “faith formed by charity” than it is to think of passages which demand that pistis mean “intellectual belief.” In fact, even in Galatians 5:6
itself, Paul has to specify that it is faith formed by charity that he is talking about, suggesting that this is not the normal use of the term in his day.
Second, the New Testament regularly (forty-two times in the KJV) speaks of “the faith,” meaning a body of theological beliefs (e.g. Jude 3
). The connection between pistis and intellectual belief is clearly very strong in this usage.
Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13
(though that is the locus classicus for it), including places where it is not obvious because of the English translation or the division of verses. If in this triad “faith” is taken to mean “formed faith” then hope and charity are collapsed into faith and the triad is flattened. To preserve the distinctiveness of each member of the triad, the Church chose to use the term “faith” in a way that did not include within it the ideas of hope (trust) and charity (love). Only by doing this could the members of the triad be kept from collapsing into one another.
Thus the Catholic Church normally expresses the core essences of these virtues like this:
Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us . . . because he is truth itself. (CCC 1814)
Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. (CCC 1817)
Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. (CCC 1822)
In common Catholic usage, faith is thus unconditional belief in what God says, hope is unconditional trust in God, and charity is unconditional love for God. When we are justified, God places all three of these virtues in our hearts. These virtues are given to each of the justified, even though our outward actions do not always reflect them because of the fallen nature we still possess. Thus a person may still have the virtue of faith even if momentarily tempted by doubt, a person may still have the virtue of trust even if scared or tempted by despair, and a person may still have the virtue of charity even if he is often selfish. Only a direct, grave violation (mortal sin against) of one of the virtues destroys the virtue.
As our sanctification progresses, these virtues within us are strengthened by God and we are able to more easily exercise faith, more easily exercise trust, and more easily exercise love. Performing acts of faith, hope, and charity becomes easier as we grow in the Christian life (note the great difficulty new converts often experience in these areas compared to those who have attained a measure of spiritual maturity).
However, so long as one has any measure of faith, hope, and charity, one is in a state of justification. Thus Catholics often use the soteriological slogan that we are “saved by faith, hope, and charity.” This does not disagree with the Protestant soteriological slogan that we are “saved by faith alone” if the term “faith” is understood in the latter to be faith formed by charity or Galatians 5 faith.
One will note, in the definitions of the virtues offered above, the similarity between hope and the way Protestants normally define “faith”; that is, as an unconditional “placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit.” The definition Protestants normally give to “faith” is the definition Catholics use for “hope.”
However, the Protestant idea of faith by no means excludes what Catholics refer to as faith, since every Evangelical would (or should) say that a person with saving faith will believe whatever God says because God is absolutely truthful and incapable of making an error. Thus the Protestant concept of faith normally includes both the Catholic concept of faith and the Catholic concept of hope.
Thus if a Protestant further specifies that saving faith is a faith which “works by charity” then the two soteriological slogans become equivalents. The reason is that a faith which works by charity is a faith which produces acts of love. But a faith which produces acts of love is a faith which includes the virtue of charity, the virtue of charity is the thing that enables us to perform acts of supernatural love in the first place. So a Protestant who says saving faith is a faith which works by charity, as per Galatians 5:6
, is saying the same thing as a Catholic when a Catholic says that we are saved by faith, hope, and charity.
We may put the relationship between the two concepts as follows:
Protestant idea of faith = Catholic idea of faith + Catholic idea of hope + Catholic idea of charity
The three theological virtues of Catholic theology are thus summed up in the (good) Protestant’s idea of the virtue of faith. And the Protestant slogan “salvation by faith alone” becomes the Catholic slogan “salvation by faith, hope, and charity (alone).”​
This was recognized a few years ago in The Church’s Confession of Faith: A Catholic Catechism for Adults, put out by the German Conference of Bishops, which stated:
Catholic doctrine . . . says that only a faith alive in graciously bestowed love can justify. Having “mere” faith without love, merely considering something true, does not justify us. But if one understands faith in the full and comprehensive biblical sense, then faith includes conversion, hope, and lovegood Catholic sense. According to Catholic doctrine, faith encompasses both trusting in God on the basis of his mercifulness proved in Jesus Christ and confessing the salvific work of God through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit. Yet this faith is never alone. It includes other acts


I don't understand what you mean by, "Unformed faith and Faith formed by,"

A saved person is justified by faith ALONE, Justified, as in,
"Made righteous by God, In right standing with God", Rom 3: 22--26. Rom 4: 1--5. Rom 5: 1.
Eph 2: 8--9. Titus 3: 5--6.

Rom 4: 5 says, "To him that WORKETH NOT, but BELIEVETH on Him that justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is counted as RIGHTEOUSNESS".

The Council of Trent says something like,
"If any man says he is justified by faith, WITHOUGHT works, let him be anathema", So according to the Catholics, Paul lost his salvation.

James isn't talking about works for salvation, Abraham was already justified before God, as a man of God.
James was talking about being justified before men, See James 2: 18.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Dear garee

The very nature of sola scriptura requires it to be explicitly found in the Bible itself

Given sola scriptura’s central premise, the Protestant has no choice but to prove that the Bible clearly and explicitly teaches the principle.
Thanks for the reply. You sure are working hard trying to answer all the requests. Do you ever think you are putting your kind of Catholic faith in the fathers in vain?

Sola scriptura is found in no other place, save all that is written in the law and the prophets.

For some reason it would seem that you started trying to rightly divide which fathers to follow after and call that walking by faith . It is the error of all who put their faith in a daysman or what you call a Pope, as your own holy father on earth which comes by an oral tradition of men called apostolic succession.

It usurps the authority of our one Holy Father in heaven. We are to call no man father on earth .One is our Spiritual Father as the infallibly interpreter in heaven (not seen the faith principle) reserved for our father in heaven . Again there simply is no daysman or what men call a Pope as infallible mediator between God and man.. Even Christ as the Son of man which pertains to his corrupted flesh resisted being called a daysman. It is clear that God desires we worship his Spirit seeing he has no form to behold


Yet he cannot, because the Bible does not. What it does explicitly teach is the infallible, binding authority of Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; Phil. 4:9; 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; and many more) and of the Church (Acts 15:1–32; 16:4; 20:28; 1 Tim. 3:15).
You are simply turning the loosening and binding law upside down just as did the apostate Jews who also served a law of the fathers. The things of men never become those of God.

The things of God are never loosened from earth and bound in heaven as if the church was in the place of the promised Holy Spirit.

Moreover, the Bible—in its indications of binding tradition, authoritative oral tradition, apostolic succession, strong Church authority, the papacy, Holy Spirit-led councils, et cetera—flat-out contradicts sola scriptura but not Catholic doctrines revealed through Tradition (such as the Assumption of Mary).
We cannot built a law of faith on assumptions .You can assume any thing you want about the Mary who is fast asleep waiting for the wake up call on the last day when she will receive her new incorruptible body .it will be neither male-or female Jew or gentile . But like the angels... no was to procreate. No longer having any part here under the Sun forever more the moment her spirit left her body of decaying , corruptible flesh

There are no authoritative oral tradition of sinful men, they make the word of God to no effect. We measure Christ’s faith by all things written in the law and prophets .You simply according to the law of your fathers measure your faith after the oral traditions of the fathers .

No man can serve two teaching authorities.

Is all things written in the law and prophets a teaching authority?

Why is it required of Catholics, then, to provide more scriptural "proof" for doctrines such as the Assumption or an infallible papacy than Protestants are required to give for sola scriptura? For if ever a tradition needed to be incontrovertibly grounded in plain biblical teaching, it is that one
Not more scriptural proof. But simply any scriptural "proof". Scripture is of no authority to those who measure their faith as a law of the fathers. Scripture is the whole deposit of His faith . Again no man can serve two teaching masters .it is either our father in heaven or the Catholic fathers on earth.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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The bible never states scripture is the sole rule of faith in authority. Simply not there
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

ECF's and you are wrong again. Who would have even imagined it possible?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Mar 28, 2016
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Dear garee

The very nature of sola scriptura requires it to be explicitly found in the Bible itself

Given sola scriptura’s central premise, the Protestant has no choice but to prove that the Bible clearly and explicitly teaches the principle.
It’s what happens when a person puts themselves under a law of the father (sinful men) .They show others they have a misguided zeal that in the end supports the father of lies.

Not believing all things written in the law and the fathers (sola scripture) and rather serving the fathers as if they were in the place of God our father in heaven was reformed during the first century reformation . It raised its human head and again and was reformed by all things written in the law and the prophets in the fifteenth century reformation , it is the key that the gates of hell could never prevail against in any generation.

The entire criterion needed to have an improper zeal for God in any reformation is shown below(Acts 22). What Saul before his born again conversion into the Nazarene sect/denomination called a perfect manner he found out it had no place in worshiping God but it rather persecuted all things written in the law and the prophets(soal scriptura) .

I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the “law of the fathers”, and was “zealous toward God”, as ye all are this day.And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished. Act 22:3

Their hatred for all that is written in the law and the prophets drove then to kill the true disciples of Christ. We can see that in respect to the Nazarene denomination. The first sect named on this side of the cross. They who once venerated Saul n now accuse him as a false prophet.( mover of sedition)

Act 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the “sect” of the Nazarenes:

The Catholic denomination/sect is not even listed in the scriptures.

Again they from the Pharisees with Sadducee denominations put aside there differences and accused Paul of being a false prophet because he was trusting all things written in the law and the prophets .But they could not prove it .. seeing they would have to make without effect, sola scriptura. and take accountability for destroying the faith of Christ.

Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Act 24:13

We can see as the Holy Spirit informs us.. believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets is the final authority of God in matters of his faith (the unseen will of God).

The difference between after and before his conversion is easy to see. Because Paul now a member of the Nazarene sect /denomination. Paul reflects that change.by saying so worship I the God of my fathers. Where before he worshiped the father as if they were our God in heaven called our father. This takes away His understanding he offers to us and directs that kind of faith towards men who they must call fathers. So then it is not so much that we refer to them as fathers but to actually call them fathers.... that usurps our father in heavens authority that he binds on earth

The law of God as in all things written in the law and prophets is only an opinion called a heresy to those who serve the law of the fathers. What they called heresy became the very law that condemned them.

Paul basically said: You can call it an opinion if you want and the fathers you worship as the law. But by that which you call heresy ,But born again Paul and every believer worships our father in heaven , and not fathers on earth. as a law of the fathers. #80 (oral traditions of men become those of God) in the book of the law called a catechism.
 
Jul 4, 2015
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1 Corinthians 3 is not about Purgatory.

1 Corinthians 3 is all about the 'Works" we do. We can do works for our Sanctification which is the gold, silver, precious stones. Or we can do 'Works" for our self which is wood, hay, straw.

The works we do for God will remain, the works we do for our self will be burned up.

Our Rewards in Heaven are based on the gold, silver, and precious stones.

Again its our Works that are being tested by fire here, not us. Therefore this verse is not about Purgatory.

Why do you refuse to follow Jesus DeaconMike? Why are you teaching the commandments of Satan? I truly believe just from listening to you that you do not have the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Why? Could it be because you have never received your Salvation? And why have you not received your Salvation?

We do not receive Salvation by being Baptized as Babies. In fact we can never receive our Salvation by being Baptized. Its when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior that God gives us Salvation by His Grace. Have you ever accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Have you ever confessed with you mouth that Jesus is Lord? Or are you relying on your being Baptized in the Catholic Church for receiving your Salvation?

Repent DeaconMike, call out to God to forgive you of all you sins. Ask God to give you your Salvation. Accept His Salvation by Faith. Pray to God for the filling of the Holy Spirit. Ask God to fill you with the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
Jul 4, 2015
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Until you DeaconMike reject all the oral traditions of men you will never have the Truth in you. Its your total dependence on the Oral Traditions of the Catholic Church that keeps you in bondage to the lies from Satan.

Only the Scriptures have the Whole Truth.

We do know the Catholic Church puts their Oral Traditions equal to the Truth from God. Can one Worship God and Satan at the same time? No. Can one follow what God and Satan says at the same time? No.

Its time for you to choose DeaconMike who will you follow.

Will you follow God only, or will you keep on following the Catholic Church?
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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Until you DeaconMike reject all the oral traditions of men you will never have the Truth in you. Its your total dependence on the Oral Traditions of the Catholic Church that keeps you in bondage to the lies from Satan.

Only the Scriptures have the Whole Truth.

We do know the Catholic Church puts their Oral Traditions equal to the Truth from God. Can one Worship God and Satan at the same time? No. Can one follow what God and Satan says at the same time? No.

Its time for you to choose DeaconMike who will you follow.

Will you follow God only, or will you keep on following the Catholic Church?

Since no one seems willing to answer i'll ask again,,,

What about the following instances of the actual Bible using oral tradition?


  • The reference to "He shall be called a Nazarene" cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was "spoken by the prophets" (Matthew 2:23). This prophecy, which is considered to be "God's word", was passed down orally rather than through Scripture.
  • In Matthew 23:2-3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based "on Moses' seat", but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of "teaching succession" from Moses.
  • In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul the Apostle refers to a rock that "followed" the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But, this critic writes, rabbinic tradition does.
  • "As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses" (2 Timothy 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (cf. Exodus 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.
  • In 1 Peter 3:19, the Apostle Peter describes Jesus' descent into Hell, drawing directly from a Jewish apocalyptic book, the Book of Enoch, which is not part of the Biblical canon in Catholic or Protestant churches.
  • In the Epistle of Jude 9, a dispute is mentioned between the Archangel Michael and Satanover Moses' body, which is not mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, and is drawn from oral Jewish tradition.
  • In the Epistle of James 5:17, when recounting the prayers of Elijah described in 1 Kings17, a lack of rain for three years is mentioned, which is absent from the passage in 1 Kings.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Since no one seems willing to answer i'll ask again,,,

What about the following instances of the actual Bible using oral tradition?


  • The reference to "He shall be called a Nazarene" cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was "spoken by the prophets" (Matthew 2:23). This prophecy, which is considered to be "God's word", was passed down orally rather than through Scripture.
  • In Matthew 23:2-3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based "on Moses' seat", but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of "teaching succession" from Moses.
  • In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul the Apostle refers to a rock that "followed" the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But, this critic writes, rabbinic tradition does.
  • "As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses" (2 Timothy 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (cf. Exodus 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.
  • In 1 Peter 3:19, the Apostle Peter describes Jesus' descent into Hell, drawing directly from a Jewish apocalyptic book, the Book of Enoch, which is not part of the Biblical canon in Catholic or Protestant churches.
  • In the Epistle of Jude 9, a dispute is mentioned between the Archangel Michael and Satanover Moses' body, which is not mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, and is drawn from oral Jewish tradition.
  • In the Epistle of James 5:17, when recounting the prayers of Elijah described in 1 Kings17, a lack of rain for three years is mentioned, which is absent from the passage in 1 Kings.
The oral traditions handed down by the apostles was Jewish oral tradition. Historical traditions tied to biblical truth.

Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jul 8, 2016
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Thanks for the reply. You sure are working hard trying to answer all the requests. Do you ever think you are putting your kind of Catholic faith in the fathers in vain?

Sola scriptura is found in no other place, save all that is written in the law and the prophets.

For some reason it would seem that you started trying to rightly divide which fathers to follow after and call that walking by faith . It is the error of all who put their faith in a daysman or what you call a Pope, as your own holy father on earth which comes by an oral tradition of men called apostolic succession.

It usurps the authority of our one Holy Father in heaven. We are to call no man father on earth .One is our Spiritual Father as the infallibly interpreter in heaven (not seen the faith principle) reserved for our father in heaven . Again there simply is no daysman or what men call a Pope as infallible mediator between God and man.. Even Christ as the Son of man which pertains to his corrupted flesh resisted being called a daysman. It is clear that God desires we worship his Spirit seeing he has no form to behold




You are simply turning the loosening and binding law upside down just as did the apostate Jews who also served a law of the fathers. The things of men never become those of God.

The things of God are never loosened from earth and bound in heaven as if the church was in the place of the promised Holy Spirit.



We cannot built a law of faith on assumptions .You can assume any thing you want about the Mary who is fast asleep waiting for the wake up call on the last day when she will receive her new incorruptible body .it will be neither male-or female Jew or gentile . But like the angels... no was to procreate. No longer having any part here under the Sun forever more the moment her spirit left her body of decaying , corruptible flesh

There are no authoritative oral tradition of sinful men, they make the word of God to no effect. We measure Christ’s faith by all things written in the law and prophets .You simply according to the law of your fathers measure your faith after the oral traditions of the fathers .

No man can serve two teaching authorities.

Is all things written in the law and prophets a teaching authority?



Not more scriptural proof. But simply any scriptural "proof". Scripture is of no authority to those who measure their faith as a law of the fathers. Scripture is the whole deposit of His faith . Again no man can serve two teaching masters .it is either our father in heaven or the Catholic fathers on earth.
Dear galee
In order for the doctrine to exist Scripture needs to state it. Scripture dousnt. Scripture alone is a term and a principle not found in the Sacred text.
 
Jul 4, 2015
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“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason—I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other—my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand; I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen.”

—Martin Luther at Worms; April 17, 1521

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Catholics are False Prophets with their teachings of Mary being without sin.
 
Jul 8, 2016
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“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason—I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other—my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand; I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen.”

—Martin Luther at Worms; April 17, 1521

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Catholics are False Prophets with their teachings of Mary being without sin.
Dear Mecc99
And we see where got him. Martin Luther before he died had literally dozens of competing denomination' s contradicting what he said. Niw Protestants have over 40,0000 various denominations all teaching various contrictory teaching. All claiming Sola Scriptura and all claiming to have the correct understanding and all claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit

So much for Sola Scriptura

Peace
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Dear galee
In order for the doctrine to exist Scripture needs to state it. Scripture dousnt. Scripture alone is a term and a principle not found in the Sacred text.
Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The Lord Himself refuted the idea right in the face of satan.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jul 4, 2015
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Yes there are lots of different Christian Churches. But NONE of them teach Mary is equal to God like you teach. NONE of them Pray to Mary as their God. NONE of them have Statues of Mary. NONE of them have Pictures of Mary. And NONE of them Pray the Rosary to Mary.

The Teachings of the Catholic Church about Mary are false. So much for Oral Traditions.
 
Jul 4, 2015
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Here is a list of false teachings of Mary in the Catholic Church.

According to Roman Catholicism, Mary is "the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, hereafter referred to as "CCC" 721), the "Queen over all things" (CCC 966), our "Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix" (CCC 969), who is "full of grace" (CCC 722), the "Mother of God and our mother" (CCC 2677), the "new Eve" (CCC 726), and the "seat of wisdom" (CCC 721). She had no original sin (CCC 508), and never committed sin (CCC 493). She is second only to her Son" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, par. 66) and sits "on the right hand of the majesty on high" (Pope Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, 14). In fact, "no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother" (Pope Leo 13th, Octobri Mense). It was Mary who "crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world" (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus). It is she who "delivers our souls from death" (CCC 966), and "continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation" (CCC 969). "Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her divine son for men, made atonement for the sins of man," (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma4, Ott, page 213). Therefore, we can "entrust all our cares and petitions to her" (CCC 2677), "give ourselves over to her now" (CCC 2677), "pray to her" (CCC 2679), and have devotion to her (CCC 971). She was "taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven" (CCC 974). When speaking of the Church, "we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary," (CCC 972). In her, the church is holy (CCC 867). "Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity" (CCC 967). Finally, in paradise the church gathers "around Jesus and Mary" (CCC 1053).

CCC 1053: 1053 "We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern" (Paul VI, CPG § 29).

Its a shame Catholics refuse to follow God.
 
Jul 8, 2016
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Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The Lord Himself refuted the idea right in the face of satan.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Dear Rodger
Scripture teaches that scripture is authoritive. That is not the issue. The issue is the word 'alone'. The verse that you quoted and many others like it state God' s written Word has authority. Amen to that. We are concerned with Scripture stating it is the ONLY authority. That is different Matter. Scripture never ststes it the only authority.
 
Jul 8, 2016
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Here is a list of false teachings of Mary in the Catholic Church.

According to Roman Catholicism, Mary is "the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, hereafter referred to as "CCC" 721), the "Queen over all things" (CCC 966), our "Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix" (CCC 969), who is "full of grace" (CCC 722), the "Mother of God and our mother" (CCC 2677), the "new Eve" (CCC 726), and the "seat of wisdom" (CCC 721). She had no original sin (CCC 508), and never committed sin (CCC 493). She is second only to her Son" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, par. 66) and sits "on the right hand of the majesty on high" (Pope Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, 14). In fact, "no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother" (Pope Leo 13th, Octobri Mense). It was Mary who "crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world" (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus). It is she who "delivers our souls from death" (CCC 966), and "continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation" (CCC 969). "Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her divine son for men, made atonement for the sins of man," (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma4, Ott, page 213). Therefore, we can "entrust all our cares and petitions to her" (CCC 2677), "give ourselves over to her now" (CCC 2677), "pray to her" (CCC 2679), and have devotion to her (CCC 971). She was "taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven" (CCC 974). When speaking of the Church, "we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary," (CCC 972). In her, the church is holy (CCC 867). "Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity" (CCC 967). Finally, in paradise the church gathers "around Jesus and Mary" (CCC 1053).

CCC 1053: 1053 "We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern" (Paul VI, CPG § 29).

Its a shame Catholics refuse to follow God.
Dear Mec99

I would be happy to walk through each Marian doctrine with you if you wish.
Fundamentalists are sometimes horrified when the Virgin Mary is referred to as the Mother of God. However, their reaction often rests upon a misapprehension of not only what this particular title of Mary signifies but also who Jesus was, and what their own theological forebears, the Protestant Reformers, had to say regarding this doctrine.
A woman is a man’s mother either if she carried him in her womb or if she was the woman contributing half of his genetic matter or both. Mary was the mother of Jesus in both of these senses; because she not only carried Jesus in her womb but also supplied all of the genetic matter for his human body, since it was through her—not Joseph—that Jesus "was descended from David according to the flesh" (Rom. 1:3).
Since Mary is Jesus’ mother, it must be concluded that she is also the Mother of God: If Mary is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus is God, then Mary is the Mother of God. There is no way out of this logical syllogism, the valid form of which has been recognized by classical logicians since before the time of Christ.
Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ.
To avoid this conclusion, Fundamentalists often assert that Mary did not carry God in her womb, but only carried Christ’s human nature. This assertion reinvents a heresy from the fifth century known as Nestorianism, which runs aground on the fact that a mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.
The Nestorian claim that Mary did not give birth to the unified person of Jesus Christ attempts to separate Christ’s human nature from his divine nature, creating two separate and distinctpersons—one divine and one human—united in a loose affiliation. It is therefore a Christological heresy, which even the Protestant Reformers recognized. Both Martin Luther and John Calvin insisted on Mary’s divine maternity. In fact, it even appears that Nestorius himself may not have believed the heresy named after him. Further, the "Nestorian" church has now signed a joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and recognizes Mary’s divine maternity, just as other Christians do.
Since denying that Mary is God’s mother implies doubt about Jesus’ divinity, it is clear why Christians (until recent times) have been unanimous in proclaiming Mary as Mother of God.
The Church Fathers, of course, agreed, and the following passages witness to their lively recognition of the sacred truth and great gift of divine maternity that was bestowed upon Mary, the humble handmaid of the Lord.

Irenaeus

"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus

"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"For Luke, in the inspired Gospel narratives, delivers a testimony not to Joseph only, but also to Mary, the Mother of God, and gives this account with reference to the very family and house of David" (Four Homilies 1 [A.D. 262]).
"It is our duty to present to God, like sacrifices, all the festivals and hymnal celebrations; and first of all, [the feast of] the Annunciation to the holy Mother of God, to wit, the salutation made to her by the angel, ‘Hail, full of grace!’" (ibid., 2).

Peter of Alexandria

"They came to the church of the most blessed Mother of God, and ever-virgin Mary, which, as we began to say, he had constructed in the western quarter, in a suburb, for a cemetery of the martyrs" (The Genuine Acts of Peter of Alexandria [A.D. 305]).
"We acknowledge the resurrection of the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the firstling; he bore a body not in appearance but in truth derived from Mary the Mother of God" (Letter to All Non-Egyptian Bishops 12 [A.D. 324]).

Methodius

"While the old man [Simeon] was thus exultant, and rejoicing with exceeding great and holy joy, that which had before been spoken of in a figure by the prophet Isaiah, the holy Mother of God now manifestly fulfilled" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 7 [A.D. 305]).
"Hail to you forever, you virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for unto you do I again return. . . . Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . Wherefore, we pray you, the most excellent among women, who boast in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate your memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid., 14).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"The Father bears witness from heaven to his Son. The Holy Spirit bears witness, coming down bodily in the form of a dove. The archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing the good tidings to Mary. The Virgin Mother of God bears witness" (Catechetical Lectures 10:19 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"Though still a virgin she carried a child in her womb, and the handmaid and work of his wisdom became the Mother of God" (Songs of Praise 1:20 [A.D. 351]).

Athanasius

"The Word begotten of the Father from on high, inexpressibly, inexplicably, incomprehensibly, and eternally, is he that is born in time here below of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God" (The Incarnation of the Word of God 8 [A.D. 365]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"Being perfect at the side of the Father and incarnate among us, not in appearance but in truth, he [the Son] reshaped man to perfection in himself from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit" (The Man Well-Anchored 75 [A.D. 374]).

Ambrose of Milan

"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose?" (The Virgins 2:2[7] [A.D. 377]).

Gregory of Nazianz

"If anyone does not agree that holy Mary is Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead" (Letter to Cledonius the Priest 101 [A.D. 382]).

Jerome

"As to how a virgin became the Mother of God, he [Rufinus] has full knowledge; as to how he himself was born, he knows nothing" (Against Rufinus 2:10 [A.D. 401]).
"Do not marvel at the novelty of the thing, if a Virgin gives birth to God" (Commentaries on Isaiah 3:7:15 [A.D. 409]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia

"When, therefore, they ask, ‘Is Mary mother of man or Mother of God?’ we answer, ‘Both!’ The one by the very nature of what was done and the other by relation" (The Incarnation 15 [A.D. 405]).

Cyril of Alexandria

"I have been amazed that some are utterly in doubt as to whether or not the holy Virgin is able to be called the Mother of God. For if our Lord Jesus Christ is God, how should the holy Virgin who bore him not be the Mother of God?" (Letter to the Monks of Egypt 1 [A.D. 427]).
"This expression, however, ‘the Word was made flesh’ [John 1:14], can mean nothing else but that he partook of flesh and blood like to us; he made our body his own, and came forth man from a woman, not casting off his existence as God, or his generation of God the Father, but even in taking to himself flesh remaining what he was. This the declaration of the correct faith proclaims everywhere. This was the sentiment of the holy Fathers; therefore they ventured to call the holy Virgin ‘the Mother of God,’ not as if the nature of the Word or his divinity had its beginning from the holy Virgin, but because of her was born that holy body with a rational soul, to which the Word, being personally united, is said to be born according to the flesh" (First Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).
"And since the holy Virgin corporeally brought forth God made one with flesh according to nature, for this reason we also call her Mother of God, not as if the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh" (Third Letter to Nestorius [A.D. 430]).
"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [John 1:14]: let him be anathema" (ibid.).

John Cassian

"Now, you heretic, you say (whoever you are who deny that God was born of the Virgin), that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, cannot be called the Mother of God, but the Mother only of Christ and not of God—for no one, you say, gives birth to one older than herself. And concerning this utterly stupid argument . . . let us prove by divine testimonies both that Christ is God and that Mary is the Mother of God" (On the Incarnation of Christ Against Nestorius 2:2 [A.D. 429]).
"You cannot then help admitting that the grace comes from God. It is God, then, who has given it. But it has been given by our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore the Lord Jesus Christ is God. But if he is God, as he certainly is, then she who bore God is the Mother of God" (ibid., 2:5).

Council of Ephesus

"We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her" (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).

Vincent of Lerins

"Nestorius, whose disease is of an opposite kind, while pretending that he holds two distinct substances in Christ, brings in of a sudden two persons, and with unheard-of wickedness would have two sons of God, two Christs,—one, God, the other, man; one, begotten of his Father, the other, born of his mother. For which reason he maintains that Saint Mary ought to be called, not the Mother of God, but the Mother of Christ" (The Notebooks 12[35] [A.D. 434]).
 
Jul 8, 2016
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Here is a list of false teachings of Mary in the Catholic Church.

According to Roman Catholicism, Mary is "the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God" (Catechism of the Catholic Church, hereafter referred to as "CCC" 721), the "Queen over all things" (CCC 966), our "Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix" (CCC 969), who is "full of grace" (CCC 722), the "Mother of God and our mother" (CCC 2677), the "new Eve" (CCC 726), and the "seat of wisdom" (CCC 721). She had no original sin (CCC 508), and never committed sin (CCC 493). She is second only to her Son" (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, par. 66) and sits "on the right hand of the majesty on high" (Pope Pius X, Ad Diem Illum Laetissimum, 14). In fact, "no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother" (Pope Leo 13th, Octobri Mense). It was Mary who "crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world" (Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus). It is she who "delivers our souls from death" (CCC 966), and "continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation" (CCC 969). "Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her divine son for men, made atonement for the sins of man," (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma4, Ott, page 213). Therefore, we can "entrust all our cares and petitions to her" (CCC 2677), "give ourselves over to her now" (CCC 2677), "pray to her" (CCC 2679), and have devotion to her (CCC 971). She was "taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven" (CCC 974). When speaking of the Church, "we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary," (CCC 972). In her, the church is holy (CCC 867). "Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity" (CCC 967). Finally, in paradise the church gathers "around Jesus and Mary" (CCC 1053).

CCC 1053: 1053 "We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, where in eternal blessedness they see God as he is and where they are also, to various degrees, associated with the holy angels in the divine governance exercised by Christ in glory, by interceding for us and helping our weakness by their fraternal concern" (Paul VI, CPG § 29).

Its a shame Catholics refuse to follow God.
Mary Ark of the Covenant
Why do Catholics call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant? Answering that question will take us on a thrilling journey through the Old and New Testaments.For example, Luke wove some marvelous things into his Gospel that only a knowledgeable Jew would have understood—a Jew who knew Jewish Scripture and had eyes to see and ears to hear. One of the things he would have understood is typology.
We all know that the Old Testament is full of stories, people, and historical events. A type is a person, thing, or event in the Old Testament that foreshadows something in the New Testament. It is like a taste or a hint of something that will be fulfilled or realized. Types are like pictures that come alive in a new and exciting way when seen through the eyes of Christ’s revelation. Augustine said that "the Old Testament is the New concealed, but the New Testament is the Old revealed" (Catechizing of the Uninstructed 4:8).
The idea of typology is not new. Paul says that Adam was a type of the one who was to come—Christ (Rom 5:14). Early Christians understood that the Old Testament was full of types or pictures that were fulfilled or realized in the New Testament.
Here are a few more examples of biblical typology:

  • Peter uses Noah’s ark as a type of Christian baptism (1 Pt 3:18-22).
  • Paul explains that circumcision foreshadowed Christian baptism (Col 2:11-12).
  • Jesus uses the bronze serpent as a type of his Crucifixion (Jn 3:14; cf. Nm 21:8-9).
  • The Passover lamb prefigures the sacrifice of Christ (1 Cor 5:7).
  • Paul says that Abraham "considered that God was able to raise men even from the dead; hence, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back" (Heb 11:19).
[h=4]The Ark of the Old Covenant[/h]God loved his people and wanted to be close to them. He chose to do so in a very special way. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, "The prayer of the people of God flourished in the shadow of the dwelling place of God’s presence on earth, the ark of the covenant and the temple, under the guidance of their shepherds, especially King David, and of the prophets" (CCC 2594). God instructed Moses to build a tabernacle surrounded by heavy curtains (cf. Ex 25-27). Within the tabernacle he was to place an ark made of acacia wood covered with gold inside and out. Within the Ark of the Covenant was placed a golden jar holding the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant (cf. Heb 9:4).
When the ark was completed, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle (Ex 40:34-35; Nm 9:18, 22). The verb for "to cover" or "to overshadow" and the metaphor of a cloud are used in the Bible to represent the presence and glory of God. The Catechism explains:
In the theophanies of the Old Testament, the cloud, now obscure, now luminous, reveals the living and saving God, while veiling the transcendence of his glory—with Moses on Mount Sinai, at the tent of meeting, and during the wandering in the desert, and with Solomon at the dedication of the temple. In the Holy Spirit, Christ fulfills these figures. The Spirit comes upon the Virgin Mary and "overshadows" her, so that she might conceive and give birth to Jesus. On the mountain of Transfiguration, the Spirit in the "cloud came and overshadowed" Jesus, Moses and Elijah, Peter, James and John, and "a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my Son, my Chosen; listen to him!’" Finally, the cloud took Jesus out of the sight of the disciples on the day of his Ascension and will reveal him as Son of Man in glory on the day of his final coming. The glory of the Lord "overshadowed" the ark and filled the tabernacle. (CCC 697)
It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.
God was very specific about every exact detail of the ark (Ex 25-30). It was a place where God himself would dwell (Ex 25:8). God wanted his words—inscribed on stone—housed in a perfect container covered with pure gold within and without. How much more would he want his Word—Jesus—to have a perfect dwelling place! If the only begotten Son were to take up residence in the womb of a human girl, would he not make her flawless?
The Virgin Mary is the living shrine of the Word of God, the Ark of the New and Eternal Covenant. In fact, St. Luke’s account of the Annunciation of the angel to Mary nicely incorporates the images of the tent of meeting with God in Sinai and of the temple of Zion. Just as the cloud covered the people of God marching in the desert (cf. Nm 10:34; Dt 33:12; Ps 91:4) and just as the same cloud, as a sign of the divine mystery present in the midst of Israel, hovered over the Ark of the Covenant (cf. Ex 40:35), so now the shadow of the Most High envelops and penetrates the tabernacle of the New Covenant that is the womb of Mary (cf. Lk 1:35). (Pontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People, The Shrine: Memory, Presence and Prophecy of the Living God)
[h=4]King David and Elizabeth[/h]Luke weaves additional parallels into the story of Mary—types that could be overlooked if one is unfamiliar with the Old Testament. After Moses died, Joshua led the Israelites across the Jordan River into the Promised Land. Joshua established the Ark of the Covenant in Shiloh, where it stayed for more than 200 years. One day the Israelites were losing a battle with the Philistines, so they snatched the ark and rushed it to the front lines. The Philistines captured the ark, but it caused them great problems, so they sent it back to Israel (1 Sm 5:1-6:12).
David went out to retrieve the ark (1 Sm 6:1-2). After a man named Uzzah was struck dead when he touched the ark, David was afraid and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" He left the ark in the hill country of Judea for three months. We are also told that David danced and leapt in front of the ark and everyone shouted for joy. The house of Obed-edom, which had housed the ark, was blessed, and then David took the ark to Jerusalem (2 Sm 6:9-14).
Compare David and the ark to Luke’s account of the Visitation:
In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." (Lk 1:39-45)

  • Mary arose and went to the hill country of Judea. I have been to both Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided), and they are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.
  • When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" Elizabeth uses almost the same words: "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke is telling us something—drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel.
  • When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.
  • When the Old Testament ark arrived—as when Mary arrived—they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.
  • The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sm 6:12; 1 Kgs 8:9-11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Lk 1:56; 2:21-22).
It seems clear that Luke has used typology to reveal something about the place of Mary in salvation history. In the Ark of the Old Covenant, God came to his people with a spiritual presence, but in Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, God comes to dwell with his people not only spiritually but physically, in the womb of a specially prepared Jewish girl.
The Old Testament tells us that one item was placed inside the Ark of the Old Covenant while in the Sinai wilderness: God told Moses to put the stone tablets with the Ten Commandments inside the ark (Dt 10:3-5). Hebrews 9:4 informs us that two additional items were placed in the Ark: "a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded." Notice the amazing parallels: In the ark was the law of God inscribed in stone; in Mary’s womb was the Word of God in flesh. In the ark was the urn of manna, the bread from heaven that kept God’s people alive in the wilderness; in Mary’s womb is the Bread of Life come down from heaven that brings eternal life. In the ark was the rod of Aaron, the proof of true priesthood; in Mary’s womb is the true priest. In the third century, St. Gregory the Wonder Worker said that Mary is truly an ark—"gold within and gold without, and she has received in her womb all the treasures of the sanctuary."
While the apostle John was exiled on the island of Patmos, he wrote something that would have shocked any first-century Jew. The ark of the Old Covenant had been lost for centuries—no one had seen it for about 600 years. But in Revelation 11:19, John makes a surprising announcement: "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple."
At this point chapter 11 ends and chapter 12 begins. But the Bible was not written with chapter divisions—they were added in the 12th century. When John penned these words, there was no division between chapters 11 and 12; it was a continuing narrative.
What did John say immediately after seeing the Ark of the Covenant in heaven? "And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child" (Rv 12:1-2). The woman is Mary, the Ark of the Covenant, revealed by God to John. She was seen bearing the child who would rule the world with a rod of iron (Rv 12:5). Mary was seen as the ark and as a queen.
But does this passage really refer to Mary? Some say the woman represents Israel or the Church, and certainly she does. John’s use of rich symbolism is well known, but it is obvious from the Bible itself that the woman is Mary. The Bible begins with a real man (Adam), a real woman (Eve), and a real serpent (the devil)—and it also ends with a real man (Jesus, the Last Adam [1 Cor 15:45]), a real woman (Mary, the New Eve [Rv 11:19-12:2]), and a real serpent (the devil of old). All of this was foretold in Genesis 3:15.
John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote about this passage in Revelation:
What I would maintain is this, that the Holy Apostle would not have spoken of the Church under this particular image unless there had existed a Blessed Virgin Mary, who was exalted on high and the object of veneration to all the faithful. No one doubts that the "man-child" spoken of is an allusion to our Lord; why then is not "the Woman" an allusion to his mother? (On the Blessed Virgin Mary)
Later in the same chapter we read that the devil went out to persecute the woman’s other offspring—Christians—which certainly seems to indicate that Mary is somehow the mother of the Church (Rv 12:17).
Even if someone rejects Catholic teaching regarding Mary, he cannot deny that Catholics have scriptural foundations for it. And it is a teaching that has been taught by Christians from ancient times. Here are a few representative quotations from the early Church—some written well before the New Testament books were officially compiled into the final New Testament canon:
Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides" (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).
Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: "Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary" (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).
The Catechism of the Catholic Church echoes the words from the earliest centuries: "Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is ‘the dwelling of God . . . with men’" (CCC 2676).
The early Christians taught the same thing that the Catholic Church teaches today about Mary, including her being the Ark of the New Covenant.
[h=3]SIDEBARS[/h][h=3][/h][h=4]Mary, the Ark As Revealed in Mary's Visit to Elizabeth[/h][TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant[/TD]
[TD]Mary: Ark of the New Covenant[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1-11).[/TD]
[TD]Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14).[/TD]
[TD]John the Baptist - of priestly lineage - leapt in his mother's womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]David asks, "How can the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9).[/TD]
[TD]Elizabeth asks, "Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15).[/TD]
[TD]Elizabeth "exclaimed with a loud cry" in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11).[/TD]
[TD]Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).[/TD]
[TD]The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39-45).[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God's presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11).[/TD]
[TD]Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[h=4]Mary as the Ark Revealed by Items inside the Ark[/h][TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]Inside the Ark of the Old Covenant[/TD]
[TD]Inside Mary, Ark of the New Covenant[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The stone tablets of the law - the word of God inscribed on stone[/TD]
[TD]The body of Jesus Christ - the word of God in the flesh[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The urn filled with manna from the wilderness - the miraculous bread come down from heaven[/TD]
[TD]The womb containing Jesus, the bread of life come down from heaven (John 6:41)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]The rod of Aaron that budded to prove and defend the true high priest[/TD]
[TD]The actual and eternal High Priest[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

The Lord Himself refuted the idea right in the face of satan.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Amen! For us 'Scipture says' is final; for Catholics 'Scripture says' is nothing but someone's 'interpreation' - what the church says is their ultimate authority. Sad to say, but Roman Catholics are slaves to Rome.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,475
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The oral traditions handed down by the apostles was Jewish oral tradition. Historical traditions tied to biblical truth.

Ga 1:14 And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Amen! Yet according to the Roman Catholic church, oral tradition seems to be a body of undefined teachings, apart from the Holy Scriptures, allegedly of apostolic origin, that is passed on from generation to generation through the church, and especially through Catholic bishops.

In Paul's epistle it means one thing (the divine doctrines handed on personally by an apostle to the church); it means something entirely different in Catholic theology (namely the transmission of God's Word from one generation to another by the church).
 
Sep 16, 2014
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Its so sad to see the Catholics pour so much effort into justifying their Worship of Mary as their god.

Can God allow anyone in Heaven while they Worship Mary as a god? No.

Its not so much the Worshiping of Mary, its also the fact Catholics believe they received Salvation when they were Baptized as babies. Because of this they never go looking for Jesus to accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

Most if not all Catholics do not have Salvation. This is why they are deceived into Worshiping Mary.

Have you been Baptized in the Christian Church DeaconMike? By total immersion? Or are you relying on your false Baptism as a baby?

Look at Jesus He was totally immersed in the water, not just sprinkled and it was when He was an Adult, not as a baby!