Whats the deal with Catholics?

[DeaconMike]

Greetings DeaconMike,



The above is not the belief of Roman Catholicism, for according to Catholic dogma, Mary was sinless, a co-redeemer, co-mediator, assumed up into heaven (resurrected), as well as many other false beliefs. If you are claiming that this is not so, then you are not representing the beliefs of the RCC. [/COLOR]

Dear ahwalukee

If you open up a Catechism of the Catholic Church you will find the Church teaches Mary need a savior like anyone else. Mary is a creature not a god. How Mary was " saved" was by a singular intervention from God preserving Mary from Original sin.
Think of it this way. We all need to be saved. two ways to look at it. Think of a person walking down a Road and falls into a pit. Someone comes along and pulls him out of the pit and saves him.now think of another person walking down thst same road and coming up to the pit just as he is about to fall into the pit someone Catches and grabs him by the beck and prevents him from falling into the pit

Both were saved from the pit but in two different ways. That is how Mary was saved

 

[Ahwatukee]

Dear ahwalukee

If you open up a Catechism of the Catholic Church you will find the Church teaches Mary need a savior like anyone else. Mary is a creature not a god. How Mary was " saved" was by a singular intervention from God preserving Mary from Original sin.
Think of it this way. We all need to be saved. two ways to look at it. Think of a person walking down a Road and falls into a pit. Someone comes along and pulls him out of the pit and saves him.now think of another person walking down thst same road and coming up to the pit just as he is about to fall into the pit someone Catches and grabs him by the beck and prevents him from falling into the pit

Both were saved from the pit but in two different ways. That is how Mary was saved

I have studied what the RCC believes and teaches. I know that they believe, that she was without sin, that she was assumed up to heaven. You are not representing what the RCC really teaches. I have gone out an looked at the dogmas. Aside from Mary, you have so many other issues that are clearly not in accordance with the word of God and there is not enough room in one post to list all of the false teachings of the RCC.

 

[God4me]

Dear ahwalukee

If you open up a Catechism of the Catholic Church you will find the Church teaches Mary need a savior like anyone else. Mary is a creature not a god. How Mary was " saved" was by a singular intervention from God preserving Mary from Original sin.
Think of it this way. We all need to be saved. two ways to look at it. Think of a person walking down a Road and falls into a pit. Someone comes along and pulls him out of the pit and saves him.now think of another person walking down thst same road and coming up to the pit just as he is about to fall into the pit someone Catches and grabs him by the beck and prevents him from falling into the pit

Both were saved from the pit but in two different ways. That is how Mary was saved

You don't find that in the Bible, it's just pure Catholic speculation.
And you can't build a doctrine on speculation.

 

[DeaconMike]

Yes the difference is private interpretations as commentaries that make up the different opinions of sects. Not how long a private interpretation has existed. Being consistence in a belief that person holds as a private interpretation makes up all of the sects.

Apostate Judaism and their fathers has been around from the beginning. What qualifies the Catholic sect as having a better private interpretation of God's interpretation the bible other than the church around the corner?

What is the official Catholic teaching on private interpretations or private revelations seeing it is all one and the same ? What would make their heresies as opinions more accurate as to what God interpretation the Bible teaches us?

Do we even need a man to teach us or can the perfect law of God of itself quicken our souls and give us simply ones God’s understanding so that we can guard our hearts?


And it would seem you are using the word apostles in a way that does not coincide with its meaning and usage in the scriptures. All believers who obey the loving commandment to go out into the world and make disciples of men are considered apostles. Moses was an apostle as one sent by God .

So when you say apostolic times that can mean any time the Spirit of Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God sends someone with the gospel.

And if you would explain the Catholic fathers law in regard to "Private Revelations" which seems to be unheard of in the other camps.? What purpose do they serve ? Are they private interpretations coming from the mind of men inspired from the earth and therefore called an oral tradition seeing God is no longer bringing any new revelations.

Dear garee
Sacred Tradition is not private revelation. The Church teaches that Divine revelation is revealed under two modes Oral and written which the bible confirms. Scripture Alone is never a phrase found in the NT and therefore an un biblical principle

Apostolic succession is the " constant handing down " of the faith handed down. The Church fathers are not Divine Revelation. In fact they debated and disagreed about all kinds of things.
What it does show is how doctrine was practiced and believed and how foctrine develops from the original deposit of faith I. E. The Trinity Hypoststic Union , csnon of the NT. So forth. So the church fathers are living witnesses to the constant passing down of the depositium fide.
Hope that clears things up

 

[DeaconMike]

You don't find that in the Bible, it's just pure Catholic speculation.
And you can't build a doctrine on speculation.

Dear God4me
It's all there in Sacred Scripture for those that want to see it. This is not new stuff this began with the early church fathers recognizing the connections of Eve/ Mary , Ark of The Covenant / Mary as ark of the Covenant. This isn't new stuff. It has been accepted by Orthodox and Catholic Christisnity well before Protestantism existed 1500 years later

 

[Ahwatukee]

Dear ahwalukee

If you open up a Catechism of the Catholic Church you will find the Church teaches Mary need a savior like anyone else. Mary is a creature not a god. How Mary was " saved" was by a singular intervention from God preserving Mary from Original sin.
Think of it this way. We all need to be saved. two ways to look at it. Think of a person walking down a Road and falls into a pit. Someone comes along and pulls him out of the pit and saves him.now think of another person walking down thst same road and coming up to the pit just as he is about to fall into the pit someone Catches and grabs him by the beck and prevents him from falling into the pit

Both were saved from the pit but in two different ways. That is how Mary was saved

"Not a few Protestants are surprised to discover the Catholic Church actually agrees that Mary was "saved." Indeed, Mary needed a savior! However, Mary was "saved" from sin in a most sublime manner. She was given the grace to be "saved" completely from sin so that she never committed even the slightest transgression."

The above is what the RCC believes and it is false! Mary was saved in the same way everyone else is saved and that by trusting in the shed blood of Christ as the One who made payment for our sins.

 

[DeaconMike]

I have studied what the RCC believes and teaches. I know that they believe, that she was without sin, that she was assumed up to heaven. You are not representing what the RCC really teaches. I have gone out an looked at the dogmas. Aside from Mary, you have so many other issues that are clearly not in accordance with the word of God and there is not enough room in one post to list all of the false teachings of the RCC.

Dear ahwalukee

No offense , but from your comments you don't have a clue what the Church teaches. My guess is you got your information from non Catholic souces

Trust me when I say I know what the church teaches. 5 yeas in a Catholic Major seminary ell do that.
If you really want to learn what the Church teaches use Catholic sources.

 

[mailmandan]

Dear Mailmadan
If you take the time to actually read and study what you just posted you just confirmed everything the Church teaches. " Hail full of Grace, highly favored one". Are all translations of the same Gr kekaritomene a perfect passive participle
Which translates " you who has been Graced by God". The Gr is a " perfect passive ". As you have so correctly confirmed. Which means it has a continuing on going sense. If it was in a past sense the Gr has another sense aorist which the Gr would use.

Take the time to study what you post

Peace

I did take the time to read and study the article and it does not confirm your argument.

 

[DeaconMike]

I did take the time to read and study the article and it does not confirm your argument.

Dear Mailmadan
You quoted what the Church teaches. I'm not sure you understand the nature of the arguemrnt. You didn't look at the morphology usage. Kekaritomene is a perfect passive participle. Thst translates Hail full of Grace , highly favored one , all translations of the same word. You even confirmed its usage in your lexicon examples. Not sure what you do not understand. It's all there if you want to see it

 

[Mec99]

Tell us DeaconMike how do we receive Salvation?

Do we receive Salvation from the Catholic Church? No.
Do we receive Salvation by being in the Catholic Church? No.
Do we receive Salvation by believing Peter was a Pope? No.
Do we receive Salvation by the Oral Traditions of the Catholic Church? No.
Do we receive Salvation from Mary? No.

Do we ever receive Salvation by anything the Catholic Church believes in or teaches? No.

We receive Salvation by the Grace of God.

Ephesians 2:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved

Its by the Grace from God that we have received our Salvation.

Therefore we do not need the Catholic Church nor any of its teachings nor commandments nor Traditions nor Mary!

We walk in the Spirit with God serving and Worshiping God. This is all we need. We have no need of anything from or in the Catholic Church BECAUSE Salvation is not based on the Catholic Church.

We can say all you want DeaconMike about the Catholic Church and Mary but my Salvation is Eternal and I can never lose it.

 

[DeaconMike]

Tell us DeaconMike how do we receive Salvation?

Do we receive Salvation from the Catholic Church? No.
Do we receive Salvation by being in the Catholic Church? No.
Do we receive Salvation by believing Peter was a Pope? No.
Do we receive Salvation by the Oral Traditions of the Catholic Church? No.
Do we receive Salvation from Mary? No.

Do we ever receive Salvation by anything the Catholic Church believes in or teaches? No.

We receive Salvation by the Grace of God.

Ephesians 2:8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved

Its by the Grace from God that we have received our Salvation.

Therefore we do not need the Catholic Church nor any of its teachings nor commandments nor Traditions nor Mary!

We walk in the Spirit with God serving and Worshiping God. This is all we need. We have no need of anything from or in the Catholic Church BECAUSE Salvation is not based on the Catholic Church.

We can say all you want DeaconMike about the Catholic Church and Mary but my Salvation is Eternal and I can never lose it.

Dear Mecc99

If I were you I would take St Psuls words seriously
" see the kindness and the severity of God; severity toward those who have fallen, but Gods kindness to you, PROVIDED you CONTINUE in his kindness" otherwise YOU WiLL BE CUT OFF"
Rom 11:22
Not the words of a once saved always saved

As for "Eph2
Please keep in mind that is one aspect of how salvation is used past tense However scripture also uses the present and future senses as well showing salvstion is a process and not a one time event
I here been saved
I am being saved
I hope to be saved

All these senses can be found in Sacred Scripture
Peace

 

[valiant]

Dear Mailmadan
You quoted what the Church teaches. I'm not sure you understand the nature of the arguemrnt. You didn't look at the morphology usage. Kekaritomene is a perfect passive participle. Thst translates Hail full of Grace , highly favored one , all translations of the same word. You even confirmed its usage in your lexicon examples. Not sure what you do not understand. It's all there if you want to see it

The correct translation is 'Highly favoured one'. Mary was highly favoured as we all agree, She was not full of grace. Are you saying the Christians 0f Eph 1.6 were 'full of grace''. It uses the same word.

Jesus rejected Mary in Mark 3.21, 31-35. She was certainly not full of grace then. And when she left her son in Jerusalem in Luke 2.

 

[Mec99]

You are wrong.

Ephesians says we HAVE been saved. We cannot lose our Salvation because Salvation is based on Grace from God, not on our sins.

Tell me DeaconMike, if our Salvation is based solely on the Grace of God, then how can we lose our Salvation by sinning? We cannot!

Now if you want to believe you can lose your Salvation i have no problem with it. But then how can you walk in Assurance with God if you are constantly worried about losing your Salvation? You cannot. You will never have the Peace of God in your life if you are always afraid of losing your Salvation and ending up in Hell.

 

[valiant]

Dear Mecc99

If I were you I would take St Psuls words seriously

If I were you, so should you.

" see the kindness and the severity of God; severity toward those who have fallen, but Gods kindness to you, PROVIDED you CONTINUE in his kindness" otherwise YOU WiLL BE CUT OFF"
Rom 11:22
Not the words of a once saved always saved

But then they are not spoken to Christians. They are spoken to those who pretended but were not real, (like many Rcs)

As for "Eph2
Please keep in mind that is one aspect of how salvation is used past tense However scripture also uses the present and future senses as well showing salvstion is a process and not a one time event
I here been saved
I am being saved
I hope to be saved

yes,

I have been saved from the guilt of sin' (Tit 3.5),

I am being saved from the power and pollution of sin (1 cor 1.18).

I will be delivered from sins' very presence.

All these senses can be found in Sacred Scripture

Now you know what they mean

 

[valiant]

Dear ahwalukee

If you open up a Catechism of the Catholic Church you will find the Church teaches Mary need a savior like anyone else. Mary is a creature not a god. How Mary was " saved" was by a singular intervention from God preserving Mary from Original sin.
Think of it this way. We all need to be saved. two ways to look at it. Think of a person walking down a Road and falls into a pit. Someone comes along and pulls him out of the pit and saves him.now think of another person walking down thst same road and coming up to the pit just as he is about to fall into the pit someone Catches and grabs him by the beck and prevents him from falling into the pit

Both were saved from the pit but in two different ways. That is how Mary was saved

There is not one word about this in scripture, (nor in the earliest fathers)

 

[DeaconMike]

The correct translation is 'Highly favoured one'. Mary was highly favoured as we all agree, She was not full of grace. Are you saying the Christians 0f Eph 1.6 were 'full of grace''. It uses the same word.

Jesus rejected Mary in Mark 3.21, 31-35. She was certainly not full of grace then. And when she left her son in Jerusalem in Luke 2.

Dear Valiant.
Kekaritomene ( Gr for " who has been graced by God) is translated as "highly favored One " or Hail full of Grace" in English. It all it translated from the same word.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

The correct translation is 'Highly favoured one'. Mary was highly favoured as we all agree, She was not full of grace. Are you saying the Christians 0f Eph 1.6 were 'full of grace''. It uses the same word.

Jesus rejected Mary in Mark 3.21, 31-35. She was certainly not full of grace then. And when she left her son in Jerusalem in Luke 2.

Dear Valiant.
Kekaritomene ( Gr for " who has been graced by God) is translated as "highly favored One " or Hail full of Grace" in English. It all it translated from the same word.

engraced by God as all Christians are, (eph 1.7) NOT full of grace as you RCs claim. as you do so often you twist the meaning of the Greek.

 

[DeaconMike]

engraced by God as all Christians are, (eph 1.7) NOT full of grace as you RCs claim. as you do so often you twist the meaning of the Greek.

Not according to the Gr. The saying by the Angel is a title. A name change. It would be like me saying to you " you who types on chat sites".
The morphology is a perfect passive participle which means an event has happened in the past
And continues to exist into the future"
We are born not in s state of grace. That's what salvation is about. Mary is in a state of grace which happened in the past and is continuing
That is the meaning of the Gr Like it or not my friend
Peace

 

[notuptome]

We are born not in s state of grace. That's what salvation is about. Mary is in a state of grace which happened in the past and is continuing
That is the meaning of the Gr Like it or not my friend
Peace

Mary was not born in a state of grace. Mary was blessed of God to give birth to the baby Jesus. Mary was a clean vessel with the correct lineage to bring into this world the baby Jesus. Mary was favored to perform a most significant deed for the glory of God.

God loves every soul that comes into the world with the same complete love wherewith He loved Mary. God also hates every sin with a perfect hatred. Even the most minor sin is just as hated by God as the most heinous sin.

Like it or not religion will not save you nor atone for any of your sins.

The same grace accorded to Mary is accorded to all who believe and trust Christ for salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[valiant]

Not according to the Gr. The saying by the Angel is a title. A name change. It would be like me saying to you " you who types on chat sites".

you can prove this? the text does not say it was a name change. It shows it as a description, also used of all Christians in Eph 1,7. It was a temporary situation. Later she was plainly put in her place by Jesus (Mark 3.31-35). She was certainly not 'full of grace' in your sense then.

The morphology is a perfect passive participle which means an event has happened in the past
And continues to exist into the future"

that is not the meaning of the perfect passive participle. It says nothing about the future. it means the past and present, you are simply making it mean what you want.

We are born not in s state of grace. That's what salvation is about. Mary is in a state of grace which happened in the past and is continuing.

all who have been saved are in a state of grace, They have been engraced and accepted by God. she was no different from any others