Repentance: A Boast in the Flesh

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Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#201
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
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#201
Jimbone said:
That is a very poor example. Simply having "a beer" with a meal is not a sin no matter who may say it is, the sin would come from an over indulgent drunken binge, which would more than likely be regretted later and that would be where the repentance may come in (and fit nicely in my opinion). I seriously doubt you would feel "conviction" over a single beer or two. Another fine example of that scarecrow that lives around here.
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I agree with you here Jim about the over indulging of any substance including alcohol. What Willie is referring to is that there are lot's of well meaning Christians that believe it is a "sin" to have one beer.

And Willie I believe if I understood him was asking "if his having one beer which didn't violate his own personal beliefs - should he not have a beer if other people "think" it's a sin to drink one beer"?
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#202
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
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#202
I see a problem in meaning here

"changing ones mind" - could mean you have two options, you choose one over the other.
Another way of reading this is your whole mind is changed, the way it functions, its foundations,
its assumptions, its emotional loyalties, likes and dislikes.

Culturally we use the term, I changed my mind, meaning a decision shifted.

In life we have very little experience of changed minds. Brain washing is one experience, or when
people are under the influence of a drug, or stroke patients, or nervous breakdowns, when someones
core functioning seems to fail.

Another meaning has been linked to an idea of identity. In this model by understanding your
superhuman identity you can exercise its reality. Some here appear to be using the idea like
this. But this is certainly not a scriptural use and we are never a superhuman being, rather
just a human in communion with the creator.

So maybe people mean these words in not obvious ways but do not expand on them. There maybe
obvious reasons why.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#203
#203
Jesus came to save sinners. We don’t clean ourselves up first and then Jesus saves us. Jesus saves us and then He cleans us up.
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#205
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#205
FreeNChrist said:
Jesus came to save sinners. We don’t clean ourselves up first and then Jesus saves us. Jesus saves us and then He cleans us up.
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What do you mean clean ourselves and He cleans us up?

Your sentence suggests two positions only. I know from personal experience, and listening to
many others, nothing is so simple or as polarised as this.

I think of a vision this muslim man had in prison. He met Christ. He was struck by love and holiness,
his own sin and failure and Jesus's forgiveness and acceptance.

We are people who are conscious as part of a human, but what is "us" and what is part of the system
is not clear. Equally when we respond to the Lord, what is our response and His work in us, is unclear.

Some appear fascinated with the idea of self and God, as if one is evil and the other good, when we
are merely talking about identity. But if your goal is loss of self and integration into God, then it would
explain a lot of the language and ideas. My understanding of God is He desires we are mature loving
individuals in communion with Him, but also distinct, very much like Christ and the Father.

Repentance in this context is the start of acknowledging debt and a problem and a turning away from
it, actively doing righteous acts.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#206
#206
PeterJens said:
What do you mean clean ourselves and He cleans us up?

Your sentence suggests two positions only. I know from personal experience, and listening to
many others, nothing is so simple or as polarised as this.

I think of a vision this muslim man had in prison. He met Christ. He was struck by love and holiness,
his own sin and failure and Jesus's forgiveness and acceptance.

We are people who are conscious as part of a human, but what is "us" and what is part of the system
is not clear. Equally when we respond to the Lord, what is our response and His work in us, is unclear.

Some appear fascinated with the idea of self and God, as if one is evil and the other good, when we
are merely talking about identity. But if your goal is loss of self and integration into God, then it would
explain a lot of the language and ideas. My understanding of God is He desires we are mature loving
individuals in communion with Him, but also distinct, very much like Christ and the Father.

Repentance in this context is the start of acknowledging debt and a problem and a turning away from
it, actively doing righteous acts.
Click to expand...
Jesus didn’t come to save sinners who have somehow magically “turned from all of their sins". He came to save sinners dead in their sins and trespasses. The only requirement for salvation is to be a sinner and dead. We all met that requirement.
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#207
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
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#207
Is repentance passive or active?

John the baptist criticised the pharisees for not showing repentance and acts of
righteousness, or contrition.

Jonah and Nineveh, Nineveh had to show repentance by putting on sack cloth and
ashes. We read of having a contrite heart.

Because sin is normally the conclusion of bad thought processes, aspirations, desires,
recognising a problem is just the beginning. For some this can be years of battle up
and down to work through so much. For others they are set free straight away.

So I conclude in reality both we and God need to work together.

Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
2 Tim 2:19

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

Turning away from wickedness is not God doing it, it is us the believer turning away.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#208
#208
LaurenTM said:
no

where would we put all those animals for sacrifice?
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even if we took the sacrificial and ceremonial laws away, And just kept the moral aspects of the law. Can we keep it as required?

Deuteronomy 27:26
[SUP]26 [/SUP]‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law by observing them.’

“And all the people shall say, ‘Amen!’

As Paul reiterated in gal 3 :



Gal 3:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[SUP][f][/SUP] [SUP]12 [/SUP]Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[SUP][g][/SUP]

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[SUP][h][/SUP]), [SUP]14 [/SUP]that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

I mean why was God required to redeem us from the curse of the law. If we can keep the law? That makes no sense to me.

so what does it really mean to be obedient to christ is the question.
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#209
Feb 24, 2015
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#209
FreeNChrist said:
Jesus didn’t come to save sinners who have somehow magically “turned from all of their sins". He came to save sinners dead in their sins and trespasses. The only requirement for salvation is to be a sinner and dead. We all met that requirement.
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So you can be saved by just existing as a sinner, no faith, no response, no deeds, no fruit, no understanding, no love, no change, no praise, no choice?

Think of the two thieves crucified either side of Jesus. One was saved because he showed faith
and asked Jesus to remember him. That was very much an active request. You appear lost in
trying to defend your theology rather than accepting real life and relationships, a two way street.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#210
#210
Stunnedbygrace said:
Paul said only through faith do we truly fulfill the law. It's in Romans, I think.
If you are truly fulfilling the law, in spirit and truth, what sin are you committing?
Paul said there is a case where it isn't you sinning, but sin IN you is doing it. If you agree it's wrong and you don't want to do it but you do it anyway, you agree that the law is good and it is sin IN you, and the flesh is in enmity against the Spirit and always will be.
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ok yes, I agree here, Only I would say it is love and faith, not just faith..

The law of love fulfilled the law of moses. But as you say, We are not perfect. So in reality (eternal perspective) we can not keep the law, but in life, we can when our focus is on say the spirit. we can.. We just do not focus on the spirit 24/7. And when we take our eyes of the spirit, our eyes go on self (flesh) and we will sin.
 
Grace777x70

Grace777x70

Banned
#211
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,431
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#211
Many times we see in scriptures a "description" of what the Christian life looks like as the Holy Spirit transforms us. ( 2 Cor. 3:17-18 ) - and then we try to enforce a "rule" to do a behavior modification for the Christian when it is really the life of Christ that transforms us by the Holy Spirit.

It is God that is at work in us "both" to "will" and to "do" His good pleasure. ( God gives us the will and the "capacity" to do things ) So, work out what is already in us in Christ in our new creation - the inner man - created in righteousness and holiness.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

2 Timothy 2:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

Wickedness expresses itself in many forms.

I have written this a few times - there are those that speak against this so-called Christian homosexual lifestyle where these people think it's ok to live however they want because of "grace". They are not living under the benefits of grace at all.

The Christian that lives the lifestyle of out-bursts of anger, malice ( which is insulting people and name calling ), slander ( all works of the flesh ) can also think it's ok to live like this as well as the other group mentioned. Both groups are doing the exact same thing in their Christian walk with the Lord.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
#212
#212
PeterJens said:
So you can be saved by just existing as a sinner, no faith, no response, no deeds, no fruit, no understanding, no love, no change, no praise, no choice?

Think of the two thieves crucified either side of Jesus. One was saved because he showed faith
and asked Jesus to remember him. That was very much an active request. You appear lost in
trying to defend your theology rather than accepting real life and relationships, a two way street.
Click to expand...
Yeah, "I'm" lost. :rolleyes:
 
PeterJens

PeterJens

Banned
#213
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
#213
FreeNChrist said:
Yeah, "I'm" lost. :rolleyes:
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This is called abdication of a point. You obviously do not believe this, but I am wondering
why you feel the need to go to such an extreme passive description. Nothing in our lives
is ever this passive. If it is, it simply is not going to happen. The description seems to be
saying I am a rock in a garden, God has to do everything, if I get involved it goes wrong.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#214
#214
ladylynn said:
Exactly! Like you, i was saved already but never understood that the sanctification issue was also a work of His that I had to accept by faith and begin to walk in the process (by faith) not by works. Not only does He save us by His grace., He also teaches us by His grace.

It's then we are actually doing the works by and through the Spirit and not by our own strength. Jesus gets the credit for it all., we are His workmanship created IN Christ Jesus UNTO good works.
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I too had the issue where I kept hearing my father and others in my church tell people to stop sin. Or else. They sort of had it, we stop sin, then God saves us, You can not come to god in your sin (this was after I was saved, and got a little older where I could hang wiht the adults, I did not see this when I received Christ in my heart)

I saw people had to heal themselves first, then maybe just maybe God would save you. If you did a certain particular sin, You can;t be saved, or you would not struggle with that sin etc etc (to them, it did not seem to matter the sin of pride, arrogance and all this hidden sins they had)

I saw people fall left and right, When i left for the military, I felt a freedom, I am finally free of th erules and regulations I find it impossible to keep. I rebelled and made many mistake.

Many years later, After my wife divorced me, I left the church for good. WHy bother. no matter how hard I try to do what God wants, I am an utter failure, I failed even in my marriage (a mortal sin in my church) so why continue.

Then I found grace, and what it really means.. I saw lives change from the inside out.. I still struggle because I was in it too long, But I am being healed. PRAISE GOD.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#216
#216
Grace777x70 said:
I agree with you here Jim about the over indulging of any substance including alcohol. What Willie is referring to is that there are lot's of well meaning Christians that believe it is a "sin" to have one beer.

And Willie I believe if I understood him was asking "if his having one beer which didn't violate his own personal beliefs - should he not have a beer if other people "think" it's a sin to drink one beer"?
Click to expand...
Paul said he was all things to all people.

If I am with someone I am trying to witness too. Or just a brother who likes to have a drink from time to time, and it is not against my faith, then sure, Have a drink.

If i am with people who think it is a sin, Then no, I think it would be a sin to drink in front of them, Do you really need a drink that bad? if youd o, something is wrong.

In the same token, For them to say drinking is a sin to the one we are trying to win to Christ, that is a sin..

so it goes both ways I guess.

ps, if we are around a person we know struggles with drinking, and is an alcoholic. Please Please. DO not drink, Your tempting your brother who has a weekness.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#217
#217
ladylynn said:
Exactly! Like you, i was saved already but never understood that the sanctification issue was also a work of His that I had to accept by faith and begin to walk in the process (by faith) not by works. Not only does He save us by His grace., He also teaches us by His grace.

It's then we are actually doing the works by and through the Spirit and not by our own strength. Jesus gets the credit for it all., we are His workmanship created IN Christ Jesus UNTO good works.
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Thats right. Justification is objective - Christ’s work for us. Sanctification is subjective - Christ’s work within us.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#220
#220
FreeNChrist said:
Only One man has obeyed as God requires, and by His obedience we are made righteous. (Rom 5:19)
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and this would explain why Jesus had to become a curse for us, and redeem us from the curse of the law correct?
 
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