The wages of sin is death...

[JGIG]

Well you either submit to the leadership of Messiah - which is righteousness,
or you don't always submit to the leadership which leads to a state of less than righteousness.
But make no mistake, you have to make the choices as long as you are in this physical body.

Messiah's leadership is as the Perfect, Permanent High Priest of the New Covenant.

Messiah does not mediate the Law, for the Law requires those of the Tribe of Levi to mediate the Law, and Christ is of the Tribe of Judah.

As such, the Old Covenant has been rendered obsolete.

Yet you keep trying to steer believers in Christ back to the Law for righteousness, and from which, outside of 100% obedience, 100% of the time, produces only death, not righteousness.

The first 3 chapters of Romans clarify this, and Romans 4-10 clarify what the righteousness apart from the Law (depicted in Romans 3) looks like.

2 Cor. 3 clarifies for us that in comparison to the New Covenant in Christ, the Old Covenant (engraved on tablets of stone - there is no mistaking to which Paul refers) is a 'ministry of death'.

Why do you seek to steer people to a ministry of death when there is life and freedom and righteousness in Christ and His New Covenant?

Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death,which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

12 Therefore, since we have such a hope,we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.

16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord,the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. (2 Cor. 3)​

-JGIG

 

[FreeNChrist]

if you are raising children, do you set rules and limits to keep them on the good path of life? and shouldn't your children not be "afraid of you"...but shouldn't they have a reverent fear of dad? knowing he will keep his word about punishment? God is and must be reverenced, there is a level of fear in reverence. God means what He says, His love was clearly expressed on the cross , and in our daily lives if we look for it within and around us. Bit this being said, humans don't always want to be selfless and love others, so Gods word is designed with warnings, limits, rules to keep us from harm, to teach us to be godly people in a sinful world. Just like we teach our children through discipline to be good people at times, and were the rebellious kid too, Grace grace and all, but its not reverant to omit the warnings and commands of the God we Love who has always equated Love and obedience. Gods word is designed perfectly, it needs no ommitals to make it seem more graceful than it already is. Gods wrath is also coming for those who take His grace in vain. reverance for an all powerful God who destroys citys for disobedience and sends swarms of deadly vipers on His people because they will not do as commanded though He delivered them through grace from slavery in Egypt.....Gods grace is to be reverenced, and His power is to be feared, revelation promises the coming wrath on those who refuse to repent of their wickedness, the lukewarm are warned that they will be spit out if they do not Get right. there is purpose in Gods design. and fear is a part of that design until obedience has done its work.

Sounds like you have not been perfected in love.

 

[followjesus]

Sounds like you have not been perfected in love.

1 john 4:16-21 "God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19We love because he first loved us. 20Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."

1 john 5:2-3 "By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome."

2 john 1:6 "And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love."

john 15 :12-17 "My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. This is my command: Love each other."

matthew 5 :43-48 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."



my point is, the commands of Jesus cannot be separated from Love, He himself His words teach His follwers HOW to perfect Love and also reverence for God. am I perfect? no, nor do I pretend to be, I will face the Lord just like every other human and give an account of myself. Do I follow Jesus with all of my heart? yep. and in doing that, " I forgive and I am forgiven" the Grace in Hios gospel is our perfection. forgive and you will be forgiven, be merciful and you will receive mercy, do not judge and you will not be judged"

perfection is found only in Christ, and Gods Love is found only in Christ. perfect Love is operfect obedience, so I'm not sure that anyone is perfect in Love, but God only knows on that.[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[followjesus]

Sounds like you have not been perfected in love.

was paul claiming perfection either though? as some seem to claim having no fear out of perfect Love?

philippians 3:12-14 "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus"


straining toward....pressing on toward the goal...to WIN the prize......effortless? no, press on, strain toward. Jesus provides all the grace we need if we are obeying His commands, we have all the forgiveness well ever need, all the sanctification is there, all the forgiveness, the mercy, the power, the spirit is all in Jesus and His gospel. its all about him as Lord. if I believe in Jesus, I believe what He is saying, he is saying these are commands I'm teaching you, actually go do them, live thuis way. its not the law of moses, its not works. its following the King. being perfect is to Love your enemies, to give mercy, because then we receive mercy and are perfected in that mercy as we pres on toward, as we strain forward we find rest in that service to the right One, Jesus

 

[FreeNChrist]

was paul claiming perfection either though? as some seem to claim having no fear out of perfect Love?

philippians 3:12-14 "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus"


straining toward....pressing on toward the goal...to WIN the prize......effortless? no, press on, strain toward. Jesus provides all the grace we need if we are obeying His commands, we have all the forgiveness well ever need, all the sanctification is there, all the forgiveness, the mercy, the power, the spirit is all in Jesus and His gospel. its all about him as Lord. if I believe in Jesus, I believe what He is saying, he is saying these are commands I'm teaching you, actually go do them, live thuis way. its not the law of moses, its not works. its following the King. being perfect is to Love your enemies, to give mercy, because then we receive mercy and are perfected in that mercy as we pres on toward, as we strain forward we find rest in that service to the right One, Jesus

Right. Jesus provides all the grace we need. Stop right there and you will have it.

 

[followjesus]

Right. Jesus provides all the grace we need. Stop right there and you will have it.

lol were not suppose to stop, we press on toeards the goal, we strain forward. and you are right, you know where that grace is found? " forgive and you will be forgiven, be merciful and you will receive mercy, judge not and you will not be judged."

its not about only what God did for you, its also about what God told us to go and do. if we are obeying His word, we have all the grace well ever need, and we will give grace to others. Jesus is everything we need, so why not listen to Him on the subject instead of omitting what He who died for you said? Jesus taught " do what I'm teaching you to do" hes the one who gave his life for you, the one who is named king, shepherd, teacher and 50 other things, Jesus is the one to follow simple. to accept His death and reject His commands is not the gospel, its a distortion and insult its saying " I accept Him dying for me, but I don't need to take His word for anything"


to me, forever and ever, that is an insult to the cross, and much more to the one who hung upon the cross. I will accept His death, His words, his empty tomb because that's what he teaches us to do. there really is no argument against Jesus I cant understand you guys who claim you have all your faith in him. you try to accept his death, but not His words, his resurrection, but not His commandments, you claim I'm in Christ, but He himself says " if you obey my teaching you will remain in my Love, just as I obeyed my Fathers commands and remain in His love.

Jesus is all about obedience, because He gave his life, that really should end the argument. if we accept Jesus, we accept His death, and also His commandments, not because that's my opinion, but because its what Jesus said, Hes the one Jesus

 

[FreeNChrist]

Yeah, no. It's ALL about Jesus and what He has done for us.

 

[followjesus]

Yeah, no. It's ALL about Jesus and what He has done for us.

so you are literally saying what He said to us doesn't matter then>? you guys really are deceived so terribly wow I had no idea the lengths this doctrine goes to to omit Jesus. it even omits His name from the title lol the gog it is I guess. its really not you I have an issue with its the doctrines you keep, only because you are omitting my savior and Lord. so no hard feelings in the spirit of Jesus and His teachings, but I cant see any good coming from us you don't value Jesus words, to me, they are spirit and Life, and they will never pass away or change. even if they disappear from books, I hae them in and through my heart and mind I will keep my eyes good and let the light shine on my life, there is no false doctrine that can ever pull me from Jesus words, you guys should reallllly consider Jesus value. you should reallllly consider that He is equal to God, and that He himself said these things about obedience and his return . consider he is the same yesterday and today and forever and he does not change with different doctrines and theologies. any doctrine that omits the necessaty of the words of Jesus Christ is in no way for me, nor should any Christian be taken in by such a terrible deceit. I'm hearing the word " woe to them" but hey the doctrine is all I'm allowed to Judge.

 

[JGIG]

so you are literally saying what He said to us doesn't matter then>? you guys really are deceived so terribly wow I had no idea the lengths this doctrine goes to to omit Jesus. it even omits His name from the title lol the gog it is I guess. its really not you I have an issue with its the doctrines you keep, only because you are omitting my savior and Lord. so no hard feelings in the spirit of Jesus and His teachings, but I cant see any good coming from us you don't value Jesus words, to me, they are spirit and Life, and they will never pass away or change. even if they disappear from books, I hae them in and through my heart and mind I will keep my eyes good and let the light shine on my life, there is no false doctrine that can ever pull me from Jesus words, you guys should reallllly consider Jesus value. you should reallllly consider that He is equal to God, and that He himself said these things about obedience and his return . consider he is the same yesterday and today and forever and he does not change with different doctrines and theologies. any doctrine that omits the necessaty of the words of Jesus Christ is in no way for me, nor should any Christian be taken in by such a terrible deceit. I'm hearing the word " woe to them" but hey the doctrine is all I'm allowed to Judge.

Consider the Cross, the Resurrection, and the Perfect, Permanent High Priesthood of Christ. In them God provides the gifts of His Righteousness, New Life, and intercedes for us when we do sin.

Before the Cross, Jesus preached the Law to those under the Law. He raised the standard of what had become 'do your best' to 'be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect' - an unattainable standard - in order to point people to Grace - the free gift of salvation through HIS Work.

Before the Cross, commandments were, "Do this or die."

After the Cross, commandments are "Believe on the One God has sent and live, and love one another."

After the Cross, God does not demand what He does not also supply: Love. But we love because He first loved us. Bear God's Fruit, which the Holy Spirit produces in us.

That's Grace.

-JGIG

 

[jamesg1951]

Let's be honest. As humans, one of our biggest fears is death.
The wages of sin is death. Sin brings death.
But when the Savior took our place, and paid the penalty we could not pay, the fear of death should be removed.
At this point, we don't obey God for fear of death, but we obey God because we love Him, and His instructions are righteous.

See Romans 6:13-16

What is death ? Separation from God.

Jesus said "I will never leave you or forsake you."

There are many places in the bible that say it is by Gods grace not by our works lest any man should boast.
Mans righteousness .... is a filthy rags to God, etc.
FEAR is lack of FAITH.
Perfect love casts out all fear.
There is a peace that passes understanding. I pray we all experience that peace, in the name of Christ Jesus.

 

[jamesg1951]

Right. Jesus provides all the grace we need. Stop right there and you will have it.

Faith without works is dead.

The challenge is ... IF you have faith in GOD where are the works that show you have that faith.

A tree is known by the fruit it bears.

 

[disciplemike]

Why do you seek to steer people to a ministry of death when there is life and freedom and righteousness in Christ and His New Covenant?

​

I get this a lot. If people slow down and take the time to read what I am saying, you will find I am not telling anyone to be under the law for salvation. I have said it many times, we are "saved" by grace through faith, and that is a gift from God, no of ourselves, lest we should boast.
I do say we need to obey our King. It does matter.
But as soon as someone sees the word, "commandment" or "law", their IMMEDIATE, REFLEX action prompts them to attack with, "you can't be saved by keeping the law", "if you break one, you break them all".

​

 

[FreeNChrist]

Faith without works is dead.

The challenge is ... IF you have faith in GOD where are the works that show you have that faith.

A tree is known by the fruit it bears.

Those works are certainly not in your trying to harness your flesh in the service of God. Good works are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, produced by Him in and through those who are living by faith in Him. Faith does not flow from good works, good works flow from genuine faith in Christ.

"Living faith" is faith that is alive with the life of the living Christ.

 

[mailmandan]

Those works are certainly not in your trying to harness your flesh in the service of God. Good works are those that have their origin in Jesus Christ, produced by Him in and through those who are living by faith in Him. Faith does not flow from good works, good works flow from genuine faith in Christ.

"Living faith" is faith that is alive with the life of the living Christ.

Amen! Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[disciplemike]

Amen! Ephesians 2:5 - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

okay, what works has God prepared beforehand? This is a serious clue.

 

[disciplemike]

What I do is use scripture to define what scripture is saying. I realize that the teaching of Christ and His love and grace go against your religion but that's the way it goes. Come to Christ and be free!...then you can walk in newness of life.

great. let's use Scripture.
But he answered and said,
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matt 4:4)

 

[PaulMack]

The works needed for us to receive our Salvation by Grace!

The works needed for Jesus the Son of God to die on the Cross for the Forgiveness of our sins!

 

[mailmandan]

okay, what works has God prepared beforehand? This is a serious clue.

Many of us would be inclined to answer this question by pointing to specific things Christians tend to do as an expression of their faith. Good works would include: attending worship services, praying regularly, studying Scripture, giving generously from our financial resources, going on mission trips, caring for the poor, working for justice for the oppressed, loving our neighbors, and so forth. These are surely among the good works God has prepared for us. We rightly engage in these activities as people who have been transformed by God's grace through Christ.

But, if we think of good works only in these terms, we miss the extent to which God's plan for our good works is much broader and deeper. Our translation explains that we are created for good works, "which God prepared in advance for us to do." The Greek original reads more literally, "which God prepared in advance, so that we might walk in them." The language of walking was used by teachers in the time of Paul in the way we might talk of living or engaging in a certain lifestyle. In other words, the good works of verse 10 are not obviously religious activities scattered throughout an otherwise secular life. Rather, the good works encompass the whole of the Christian, all that we do by God's grace for God's purposes.

Ephesians 2:10 is similar to other passages of the Pauline letters that envision all of life as lived through and for God. Romans 12:1, for example, says, "I urge you ... to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God." This offering takes place, not in identified temples, but in everyday life. Similarly, Colossians 3:17 proclaims, "And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus."

 

[disciplemike]

Many of us would be inclined to answer this question by pointing to specific things Christians tend to do as an expression of their faith. Good works would include: attending worship services, praying regularly, studying Scripture, giving generously from our financial resources, going on mission trips, caring for the poor, working for justice for the oppressed, loving our neighbors, and so forth. These are surely among the good works God has prepared for us. We rightly engage in these activities as people who have been transformed by God's grace through Christ.

But, if we think of good works only in these terms, we miss the extent to which God's plan for our good works is much broader and deeper. Our translation explains that we are created for good works, "which God prepared in advance for us to do." The Greek original reads more literally, "which God prepared in advance, so that we might walk in them." The language of walking was used by teachers in the time of Paul in the way we might talk of living or engaging in a certain lifestyle. In other words, the good works of verse 10 are not obviously religious activities scattered throughout an otherwise secular life. Rather, the good works encompass the whole of the Christian, all that we do by God's grace for God's purposes.

Ephesians 2:10 is similar to other passages of the Pauline letters that envision all of life as lived through and for God. Romans 12:1, for example, says, "I urge you ... to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God." This offering takes place, not in identified temples, but in everyday life. Similarly, Colossians 3:17 proclaims, "And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus."

God told us all about the good works He prepared beforehand. It is called Torah!

 

[mailmandan]

God told us all about the good works He prepared beforehand. It is called Torah!

So you are still under the law and disregard the New Testament?