Reproving the world of sin
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Grace777 - It is interesting that people say JP is teaching false teaching and false doctrine is
slander and malice.
It is actually an interpretation. It appears you are saying rather than this being an opinion,
you are accusing people of evil, malice ( hatred ) and intention to tell lies.
Do you see my friend, you are being personal, whereas ISIT is not?
I really appreciate your contributions, because you represent an important part of the church.
Now I do not believe in transubstantiation and call it false teaching, but I do not wish to attack
people for holding to this view. I am always interested in understanding why.
The problem with following your logic, this would in effect be censorship.
And once this starts happening over theological issues, this is no longer an open forum to
explore these areas but a propoganda approach.
I am always challenged by Jesus calling us to turn the other cheek, so offence is not taken
but a valid expression of a particular point of view.
slander and malice.
It is actually an interpretation. It appears you are saying rather than this being an opinion,
you are accusing people of evil, malice ( hatred ) and intention to tell lies.
Do you see my friend, you are being personal, whereas ISIT is not?
I really appreciate your contributions, because you represent an important part of the church.
Now I do not believe in transubstantiation and call it false teaching, but I do not wish to attack
people for holding to this view. I am always interested in understanding why.
The problem with following your logic, this would in effect be censorship.
And once this starts happening over theological issues, this is no longer an open forum to
explore these areas but a propoganda approach.
I am always challenged by Jesus calling us to turn the other cheek, so offence is not taken
but a valid expression of a particular point of view.
and you show no respect to God buy trying to present him as angry, hating the world, relishing in the fact that people are going to burn.
the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is this : for God so LOVES the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever BELIEVES in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
so there you have the Gospel. oh, and just for the record, you are still not sinless. have a nice day.
the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is this : for God so LOVES the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever BELIEVES in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
so there you have the Gospel. oh, and just for the record, you are still not sinless. have a nice day.
Proverbs 1:20-31
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices."
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices."
So the Lord is not coming to destroy the sinners of the world?
Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Yes, I agree "believers" can be reproved. I just do not believe John 16:8 is the verse to use to teach that concept.
In the context of John 16, we see that the Comforter will reprove the world of sin and the reproving of sin refers to those who believe not on me (the Lord Jesus Christ) as shown in John 16:9.
That is the ministry of the Comforter to the world according to John 16.
In John 16:13-14, we read Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
That is the ministry of the ministry of the Comforter to the believer according to John 16.
In the context of John 16, we see that the Comforter will reprove the world of sin and the reproving of sin refers to those who believe not on me (the Lord Jesus Christ) as shown in John 16:9.
That is the ministry of the Comforter to the world according to John 16.
In John 16:13-14, we read Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
That is the ministry of the ministry of the Comforter to the believer according to John 16.
Yes, and thank you for answering honestly. And no I was not using John 16 only to teach that the Lord also reproves believers, but that is the verses the Hyper grace followers use as a stand alone "proof" of sorts to suggest that the Holy Spirit in only sent to reprove unbelievers, which is false.
That is why I posted all those other verses to confirm that the Holy Spirit does reprove believers as well by God's Word and Spirit, and even by other believers speaking God's words by the same Spirit of Truth working in them.
If you believe all scripture is God breathed, or given by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then you can also understand how God uses prophets, disciples, preachers, and teachers to reprove other believers who might tend to stray away from the Truth and gospel message. As all scripture is also good for reproof.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That is why I posted all those other verses to confirm that the Holy Spirit does reprove believers as well by God's Word and Spirit, and even by other believers speaking God's words by the same Spirit of Truth working in them.
If you believe all scripture is God breathed, or given by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then you can also understand how God uses prophets, disciples, preachers, and teachers to reprove other believers who might tend to stray away from the Truth and gospel message. As all scripture is also good for reproof.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
The word " convict/reprove/convince/expose" in question has many meanings attached to it as well.
It is only used 1 time in KJV as "convict"....it is used more often with the word "to reprove/rebuke/convince"...the word needs to be looked at in the "context" that it is used...
The word means "It is a revealing of things".....to the world the Holy Spirit reveals/convinces/expose their sin of unbelief in Jesus..
To the believer He reveals/convinces/expose that they are the righteousness of Christ because He went to the Father to stand as an Advocate.
Pay attention to the world ( unbelievers ) and "you" ( believers - remember Jesus was talking to His disciples at the time. ) Remember to always look at who is being spoken to when looking at scripture.
John 16:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world ( unbelievers ) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they ( unbelievers ) do not believe in Me;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you ( believers ) no longer see Me;
1 John 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Here are a few examples of the same exact word used in scripture...as one can clearly see..this word has many uses depending on the context
1 Corinthians 14:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
Titus 1:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Matthew 18:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
John 8:46 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
English Words used in KJV: reprove 6
rebuke 5
convince 4
tell (one's) fault 1
convict 1
[Total Count: 17]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
It is only used 1 time in KJV as "convict"....it is used more often with the word "to reprove/rebuke/convince"...the word needs to be looked at in the "context" that it is used...
The word means "It is a revealing of things".....to the world the Holy Spirit reveals/convinces/expose their sin of unbelief in Jesus..
To the believer He reveals/convinces/expose that they are the righteousness of Christ because He went to the Father to stand as an Advocate.
Pay attention to the world ( unbelievers ) and "you" ( believers - remember Jesus was talking to His disciples at the time. ) Remember to always look at who is being spoken to when looking at scripture.
John 16:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And He, when He comes, will convict the world ( unbelievers ) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] concerning sin, because they ( unbelievers ) do not believe in Me;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you ( believers ) no longer see Me;
1 John 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
Here are a few examples of the same exact word used in scripture...as one can clearly see..this word has many uses depending on the context
1 Corinthians 14:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
Titus 1:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Matthew 18:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
John 8:46 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
English Words used in KJV: reprove 6
rebuke 5
convince 4
tell (one's) fault 1
convict 1
[Total Count: 17]
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
I find this statement is where the problems really begin. The idea being put forward here is
the debt for sin is a defined thing, a single item, which represents all the damage and consequences
sin has created. It is not interwoven in the fabric of existance, it exists by itself. So Jesus being
the atoning sacrifice for the world, met the need, and paid it all, forgiven.
Now this forgiveness is to make the whole universe clean.
But let me put a different proposal. The sacrifice is just personal, for each believer, and like
medicine it cleans the heart, heals the consequences of sin and purifies the believer so they
are pure and holy, able to commune with Christ and the Father through the Holy Spirit.
It works at two levels. When the believer sees God, Christ and His love, it brings hope into there
hearts that the cynism that drives the violence and anger of sin, is gone, empty without power.
It brings forgiveness, because as slaves to sin, we are victims of our very separation from God,
which now has been broken.
Now this sacrifice is worthless for unbelievers, because they see nothing of the healing effect in
their lives. It is also worthless for future sin, because in communion with God future sin does not
occur.
So out of miss-understanding Christ and His sacrifice and how it works in our lives, all the odd
theology, heresy, exaggeration flows. Rather than freeing the believer from sin, they are left
to wallow, and be defeated, because the whole process is abstracted into meaninglessness.
When Mary washed Jesus's feet with her tears and hair, how do you react? Can you empathise
with her? Do your tears flow about the glory of Christs love?
Do you know purity in your inner self, through repentance, confession and acceptance of forgiveness?
I am not trying to better than anyone or boast, or claim to have arrived, I am just talking reality,
brokeness and debt. Jesus just calls us to walk in love, and learn from Him. This is not a burden if
you have learnt this true first step.
And in this place, you will know about if you sin, it will be no surprise. But I wonder if I am talking
across kingdoms, it is no surprise you are full of self condemnation all the time. This should help you
see wherever you are, it is not what Christ intended.
the debt for sin is a defined thing, a single item, which represents all the damage and consequences
sin has created. It is not interwoven in the fabric of existance, it exists by itself. So Jesus being
the atoning sacrifice for the world, met the need, and paid it all, forgiven.
Now this forgiveness is to make the whole universe clean.
But let me put a different proposal. The sacrifice is just personal, for each believer, and like
medicine it cleans the heart, heals the consequences of sin and purifies the believer so they
are pure and holy, able to commune with Christ and the Father through the Holy Spirit.
It works at two levels. When the believer sees God, Christ and His love, it brings hope into there
hearts that the cynism that drives the violence and anger of sin, is gone, empty without power.
It brings forgiveness, because as slaves to sin, we are victims of our very separation from God,
which now has been broken.
Now this sacrifice is worthless for unbelievers, because they see nothing of the healing effect in
their lives. It is also worthless for future sin, because in communion with God future sin does not
occur.
So out of miss-understanding Christ and His sacrifice and how it works in our lives, all the odd
theology, heresy, exaggeration flows. Rather than freeing the believer from sin, they are left
to wallow, and be defeated, because the whole process is abstracted into meaninglessness.
When Mary washed Jesus's feet with her tears and hair, how do you react? Can you empathise
with her? Do your tears flow about the glory of Christs love?
Do you know purity in your inner self, through repentance, confession and acceptance of forgiveness?
I am not trying to better than anyone or boast, or claim to have arrived, I am just talking reality,
brokeness and debt. Jesus just calls us to walk in love, and learn from Him. This is not a burden if
you have learnt this true first step.
And in this place, you will know about if you sin, it will be no surprise. But I wonder if I am talking
across kingdoms, it is no surprise you are full of self condemnation all the time. This should help you
see wherever you are, it is not what Christ intended.
Dear reader,
It is interesting how those who construct such fanciful ideas, have to use analysis of language
to define what God is doing in their lives. The bible points to Christ and the Father, it does not
define the spiritual reality in our lives. I find when people have much confusion within, rather than
being like little children and sorting it out, it becomes a word game.
If a friend of yours was running towards a cliff (sin) would you just say, carry on, no problems, or
warn them quickly?
Now some seem to be suggesting God does not love us enough to warn and guide us away from sin.
I can only suggest they have not got God guiding them, because all my life I have found His protection
and hand in everything I do, even when it freaks me out. He is my friend, my companion, my confident,
my help in times of danger, my encourager, my Lord and my Saviour.
It is interesting how those who construct such fanciful ideas, have to use analysis of language
to define what God is doing in their lives. The bible points to Christ and the Father, it does not
define the spiritual reality in our lives. I find when people have much confusion within, rather than
being like little children and sorting it out, it becomes a word game.
If a friend of yours was running towards a cliff (sin) would you just say, carry on, no problems, or
warn them quickly?
Now some seem to be suggesting God does not love us enough to warn and guide us away from sin.
I can only suggest they have not got God guiding them, because all my life I have found His protection
and hand in everything I do, even when it freaks me out. He is my friend, my companion, my confident,
my help in times of danger, my encourager, my Lord and my Saviour.
see, here is the thing about the cliff analogy: this is true, but sadly this is also true : many people, 30 and under especially, do not know, or not believe that there is a cliff. so, yelling at them about not going off a cliff that they do not think is there is not the best way to reach non-belivers in this day and time. telling them about the love of God, is much more effective.