The wages of sin is death...

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disciplemike said:
I get this a lot. If people slow down and take the time to read what I am saying, you will find I am not telling anyone to be under the law for salvation. I have said it many times, we are "saved" by grace through faith, and that is a gift from God, no of ourselves, lest we should boast.
I do say we need to obey our King. It does matter.
But as soon as someone sees the word, "commandment" or "law", their IMMEDIATE, REFLEX action prompts them to attack with, "you can't be saved by keeping the law", "if you break one, you break them all".

[/INDENT]
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But as Paul put it "If eating meat offered to idols will cause my brother to sin, then I wil not wat eat offered to idols." Not under law "for" salvation but under law, "because" of salvation.
 
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Originally Posted by FreeNChrist


That has nothing to do with old covenant Law.


disciplemike said:
sir, it has everything to do with it. keeping God's commandments![

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These are God's commandments in the New Covenant in 1 John 3:23 - you always forget about Christ. Remember in the last days they are not going to be "anti-God"..they are going to be "anti-Christ".

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
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Are you saying christians can kill, steal, commit adultery, etc. with impunity?
 
jamesg1951 said:
Are you saying christians can kill, steal, commit adultery, etc. with impunity?
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Go to Texas and kill someone...they will "kill you back"....they have an "express lane" for people that are proven killers....they don't stay long on death row in Texas.

Steal from 7/11 and you go to jail.

Commit adultery and see the mess it makes of your family.

There are earthly consequences to sinning......when we walk in God's love that is poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit ( Romans 5:5 ) - we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to fulfill "it's" desires.

So, let's walk by the Spirit and awake to righteousness that is in us in Christ in our inner man created in righteousness and holiness.
 
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Grace777x70 said:
Go to Texas and kill someone...they will "kill you back"....they have an "express lane" for people that are proven killers....they don't stay long on death row in Texas.

Steal from 7/11 and you go to jail.

Commit adultery and see the mess it makes of your family.

There are earthly consequences to sinning......when we walk in God's love that is poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit ( Romans 5:5 ) - we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to fulfill "it's" desires.

So, let's walk by the Spirit and awake to righteousness that is in us in Christ in our inner man created in righteousness and holiness.
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You talk about the physical consequences... but what about the psychological and spiritual consequences. Is repentance not a requirement of salvation? Is not works not evidence of or denial of that repentance? We are saved by grace but that salvation actually does have qualifying conditions, as free as it is.

Yes walk by the spirit and do the works that testify to your salvation.
You
 
jamesg1951 said:
You talk about the physical consequences... but what about the psychological and spiritual consequences. Is repentance not a requirement of salvation? Is not works not evidence of or denial of that repentance? We are saved by grace but that salvation actually does have qualifying conditions, as free as it is.

Yes walk by the spirit and do the works that testify to your salvation.
You
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That is an unbelievably contradictory sentence!
Grace, by definition is unmerited and undeserved favour.
If there are qualifying conditions to obtain something then that process cannot be by grace.

6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (Rom 11:6)
 
disciplemike said:
Obedience is the way you show your love for God. So disobey all you want, and let's see how that turns out.
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Obedience to what?
A covenant to which we are no longer bound?
A covenant of which Christ Jesus has already fulfilled all the righteous requirements through the blood that He shed on the cross?

Or, a new covenant that explicitly frees us from the demands of the Levitical laws that are the outworkings of the Mosaic covenant?
A covenant that calls us to works and deeds that cannot be of the law because the law cannot legislate those actions?

Which covenant disciplemike?
If you are under the covenant of Moses then you cannot be part of the New covenant.
The blood of Jesus is lost to you.
You are seeking righteousness through the law, by works, by your own merit.
Jesus Christ, the cross, His blood shed on the cross, the righteousness to be found by grace through faith has no place here.
Failure on one article of the law finds one guilty on all points - there are no exceptions for you disciplemike.
The cross cannot save you if you are placing your faith in the law.
The Council of Jerusalem (recorded in Acts) specifically rejects the proposal that the only way to be a Christian is to be a practicing Jew - absolutely and unequivocally!
The law may be righteous and just and good, in itself, but all it will do for you is to condemn you.
 
TonyJay said:
That is an unbelievably contradictory sentence!
Grace, by definition is unmerited and undeserved favour.
If there are qualifying conditions to obtain something then that process cannot be by grace.

6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (Rom 11:6)
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Do not blame me for contradictions in the bible... IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to frgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. . IF my people who are called by My name shall humble themselves and confess their sins and turn from their wicked ways THEN shall I hear from heaven and forgive their sins heal their land.

 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to com



Qualifications abound to receive Gods grace.
 
jamesg1951 said:
Do not blame me for contradictions in the bible... IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to frgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. . IF my people who are called by My name shall humble themselves and confess their sins and turn from their wicked ways THEN shall I hear from heaven and forgive their sins heal their land.

 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to com



Qualifications abound to receive Gods grace.
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There is no qualification needed in the verses you have quoted.
All that is required is to believe in the truths.
There are no other prerequisites.

I can see, now, what you mean't to say.
Using the word qualification though led to the confusion and misunderstanding.
 
TonyJay said:
Obedience to what?
A covenant to which we are no longer bound?
A covenant of which Christ Jesus has already fulfilled all the righteous requirements through the blood that He shed on the cross?

Or, a new covenant that explicitly frees us from the demands of the Levitical laws that are the outworkings of the Mosaic covenant?
A covenant that calls us to works and deeds that cannot be of the law because the law cannot legislate those actions?

Which covenant disciplemike?
If you are under the covenant of Moses then you cannot be part of the New covenant.
The blood of Jesus is lost to you.
You are seeking righteousness through the law, by works, by your own merit.
Jesus Christ, the cross, His blood shed on the cross, the righteousness to be found by grace through faith has no place here.
Failure on one article of the law finds one guilty on all points - there are no exceptions for you disciplemike.
The cross cannot save you if you are placing your faith in the law.
The Council of Jerusalem (recorded in Acts) specifically rejects the proposal that the only way to be a Christian is to be a practicing Jew - absolutely and unequivocally!
The law may be righteous and just and good, in itself, but all it will do for you is to condemn you.
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Do you understand that the covenant at Mt. Sinai was a marriage covenant?
Do you understand that God never broke the covenant?
God is going to take back His wife, Israel.
This is what that "marriage supper of the Lamb" is about.

It is like this - God divorced the northern kingdom of Israel, because she was unfaithful and would not obey Him.
Some people think that God is going to now take the "church" as His wife, and give her no rules at all to live by.
It is madness to even think such.
God will re-marry His wife Israel, who is the church, and always has been the church. Gentiles are just afforded the awesome opportunity to be grafted into Israel, and be partakers of the inheritance!
 
disciplemike said:
Do you understand that the covenant at Mt. Sinai was a marriage covenant?
Do you understand that God never broke the covenant?
God is going to take back His wife, Israel.
This is what that "marriage supper of the Lamb" is about.

It is like this - God divorced the northern kingdom of Israel, because she was unfaithful and would not obey Him.
Some people think that God is going to now take the "church" as His wife, and give her no rules at all to live by.
It is madness to even think such.
God will re-marry His wife Israel, who is the church, and always has been the church. Gentiles are just afforded the awesome opportunity to be grafted into Israel, and be partakers of the inheritance!
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The only thing I understand is that you reject the covenant written with the blood of Jesus Christ - it is not yours.
 
TonyJay said:
The only thing I understand is that you reject the covenant written with the blood of Jesus Christ - it is not yours.
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sir, my Savior is Yeshua. I am not sure why you would lie and say I rejected a covenant. Telling lies is not good for christians to do. Christians should be honest and fair.
 
disciplemike said:
sir, my Savior is Yeshua. I am not sure why you would lie and say I rejected a covenant. Telling lies is not good for christians to do. Christians should be honest and fair.
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With respect it is not a lie.
It is however a very considered opinion based on a little over a thousand posts on this forum.
 
Hi TonyJay,

God will re-marry His wife Israel, who is the church, and always has been the church.
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Since disciplemike believes that Israel has always been the church, maybe he could explain the following:

"I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

The word "Build" in the verse above is in the future tense, as in, not built yet from the time Christ spoke it. If Israel was already the church, would he have not said I will "rebuild" or "restore" my church? Disciplemike, along with many others, needs to understand that Israel and the church are two individual entities. Israel is the nation Israel proper and the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile who are not under the law. Israel however, because they did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, consider themselves as still being under the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as you and many other Gentiles do. That is what the seventieth seven is all about, which will be fulfilled when that antichrist makes his seven year covenant. The church on the other hand will have been caught up to the Father's house before the beginning of the seven years period.
 
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Ahwatukee said:
Hi TonyJay,



Since disciplemike believes that Israel has always been the church, maybe he could explain the following:

"I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it."

The word "Build" in the verse above is in the future tense, as in, not built yet from the time Christ spoke it. If Israel was already the church, would he have not said I will "rebuild" or "restore" my church? Disciplemike, along with many others, needs to understand that Israel and the church are two individual entities. Israel is the nation Israel proper and the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile who are not under the law. Israel however, because they did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, consider themselves as still being under the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as you and many other Gentiles do. That is what the seventieth seven is all about, which will be fulfilled when that antichrist makes his seven year covenant. The church on the other hand will have been caught up to the Father's house before the beginning of the seven years period.
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And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my *church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Matthew 16:18 (KJV, MBM)

*G1577 ekklesia (ek-klay-see'-ah) n.
1.(properly) a "calling out"
2. (concretely) a called out assembly of citizens


This is he, that was in the *church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: Acts 7:38 (KJV, MBM)

*G1577 ekklesia (ek-klay-see'-ah) n.
1.(properly) a "calling out"
2. (concretely) a called out assembly of citizens

God has One people. God's people is called Israel. (not all of the blood-line of Israel is Israel).
But make no mistake, God has One people. One body, not two. One Spirit. One hope. One faith. One baptism.
 
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