Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the churches!

[UnderGrace]

Free will is not a biblical term it comes from philosophy and pseudo theologians.

There is choice in scripture, example "for me and my house we will serve the Lord" Joshua 24:15

So yes there are choices to be made.

We always go the robot argument, who said that all our choices are constrained or determined by God, not I

I am speaking to one choice of belief, Jesus and His free gift of salvation and the consequences of the choice of believing (which is ongoing because of the work of the Holy Spirit).

Cee has already explained how after we are justified and imputed His righteous we truly have the choice to love Him.
Our ongoing love for God is not salvation.

Salvation is a one time event and yes it is directly related to Adam and his gift to us is sin. We did nothing to obtain that gift it came freely to us when we were born.

Christ brings another gift, salvation, you accepted that gift when you are born again, one choice of belief by you that God deems acceptable. There are consequences to that choice. Consequences can be neutral. good or bad.
The consequence is being born again by the Holy Spirit which is good, you are now free to love him freely no longer slave to sin.

The consequences of our decision to believe in the work of Jesus cannot be undone because God has made a legal pronouncement about us being justified He accepted our belief in the cross.

This whole robot thing is just silly. God is the judge here, He makes the decision and declares us innocent and redeemed when we are born again. It is not our actions that make us innocent and redeemed it is His declaration by our belief in the work of the cross and then the imputation of the Holy Spirit to seal us.

We can live in that declaration of God or not, so truly that is were freedom begins, that is what you find so offensive is it not because believers sin?

Why would God put us back in the Garden of Eden where Adam fell, He actually created the better perfect plan through the cross and out smarted Satan, that is the other piece you are not understanding.

You make salvation again about works and the work of your free will, putting yourself in the mix, salvation is about believing in the finished work of Jesus Christ, God deems the belief acceptable, justifies you and declares you righteous and you are born again. Look at it from God's perspective that is the key!!

Done, It Is Finished!!

Sorry, everything you have said above is simply wrong at best, or intentionally false teachings of "free will." Personally, I simply believe you do not actually understand free will or what it is. However, it is such a simple gift from God, that surely, if you seek guidance from the Holy Spirit, He will impart the understanding of free will to you.

Free will was never designed by God to be a "punishment," or only serve as a "consequence" for our actions. God wanted (from the beginning) to have His creation (mankind) to love Him. He wanted them to CHOOSE to love Him freely OF THEIR OWN WILL. Not love Him because He created them to be obedient loving children with no choice. He did not desire a creation of "robots," He desired loving children who desired to love Him as He loved them, of their own FREE WILL.

Adam and Eve have nothing to do with this. That is a whole other thread, and simply a straw man argument here.

 

[Grace777x70]

Honestly, I, and others, have done that so very many times here, it really is not worth the effort. Those cemented in their denominational ideology will never honestly consider that thy may have been misled. And as I am a passionate believer in FREE WILL, I will never accept the false ideology of OSAS. So, truly, why bother.

I have only commented here because a couple of the posts were so far over the top and so very unBiblical that I was moved to do so.

As all can see, the OSAS'ers will not honestly discuss the issue, rather they duck and dodge or completely ignore any proposal that challenges the truth of their ideology. They then resort to their usual attacks...........and their all time favorite justification of........"well, they really weren't saved to begin with....." Talk about a cry baby justification.

Nah...........I have again reached my threshold for, and intake of this false ideology. I suspect the number of "friends" I did have here prior to this thread will decrease...........but, that is ok.....I will not sit by and watch people who profess to be Christians attack the God given gift of free will, and replace it with a watered down version of the teachings of Calvin.

Your own statement reveals this to be true.............

Well...I guess we will just have to agree to disagree then if you are not interested in this. That's no problem. Bless you and have a great rest of the day!

We can still sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus!.....with our mouths wide open in awe of our Lord's great grace and love for us...

 

[Cee]

I didn't say you couldn't leave Him. I didn't say others couldn't. I said they wouldn't. When you know how GOOD He is and how KIND He is, why WOULD you? And I also showed you that people who SIN are the ones who are enslaved. So your entire argument is flawed from the beginning. When people are SET FREE they no longer desire sin.

C.

The truly sad thing here is that your comments above COMPLETELY JUSTIFY my assertion that OSAS is a false theology/ideology, and you DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND that you have made MY ARGUMENT for me. That is truly sad.

The embolden part CLEARLY shows that you realize that WE HAVE A CHOICE! To stay in HIs loving arms and Grace, OR to TURN FROM Him and LEAVE Him. That IS FREE WILL. That IS NOT OSAS. OSAS teaches that once saved, a person CAN NOT CHOOSE TO LEAVE HIM.

Thank you though for proving that the proponents of OSAS do not even understand their own ideology.

 

[Cee]

1 Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

Not a one of you has managed to adequately explain how your ideology does not make void free will. One or two have tried, and failed miserably, the rest have simply ignored the issue because they know they can not.

FREE WILL AND OSAS are directly opposed to one another in every way.

So, if you believe in and teach OSAS, you better be honest enough, and have the courage to admit that you do not believe in FREE WILL. Otherwise, you are being deceptive in your teachings, and God is not the Author of deception.

 

[notuptome]

Not a one of you has managed to adequately explain how your ideology does not make void free will. One or two have tried, and failed miserably, the rest have simply ignored the issue because they know they can not.

FREE WILL AND OSAS are directly opposed to one another in every way.

So, if you believe in and teach OSAS, you better be honest enough, and have the courage to admit that you do not believe in FREE WILL. Otherwise, you are being deceptive in your teachings, and God is not the Author of deception.

If you have a free will to sin why would you not have a free will to serve?

Free will and salvation are not opposed to one another. Free will and condemnation are opposed to one another. How much free will is found in the bondage of sin? How much free will is found in the liberty of Christ?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[UnderGrace]

Well I am not a Calvinists by any means if that is what you are thinking,

but free will is not a biblical concept it is derived from Greek philosophers and their

beliefs around how much control the gods had on humans.

We all have a will yes, does scripture tells us we are completely free, no. It tells us we are slaves to sin before we are born again.

Leaving it there...

Sorry, everything you have said above is simply wrong at best, or intentionally false teachings of "free will." Personally, I simply believe you do not actually understand free will or what it is. However, it is such a simple gift from God, that surely, if you seek guidance from the Holy Spirit, He will impart the understanding of free will to you.

Free will was never designed by God to be a "punishment," or only serve as a "consequence" for our actions. God wanted (from the beginning) to have His creation (mankind) to love Him. He wanted them to CHOOSE to love Him freely OF THEIR OWN WILL. Not love Him because He created them to be obedient loving children with no choice. He did not desire a creation of "robots," He desired loving children who desired to love Him as He loved them, of their own FREE WILL.

Adam and Eve have nothing to do with this. That is a whole other thread, and simply a straw man argument here.

 

[Mec99]

Yes we do have free will to accept or reject God.

BUT you must understand no one goes looking for God!

Romans 3:10-12
[SUP]10 [/SUP]as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

If NONE are Righteous, if NONE understands, if NONE seek for God, if NONE does Good, not even one. Then how do we by ourselves ever seek out God?

Its God who had at the beginning Chosen us to accept Him.

This is hard Theology that today many have rejected for the feel-good-do-it-by-myself Theology that they go searching for God.

We do NOT have the Free Will to go looking for God! Either you have been Chosen by God or you have NOT been Chosen by God.

Only those who have been Chosen by God will receive Salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God calls us, but He does not call everybody.

 

[Vdp]

Free will is pie in the sky.

WE never had free will because we are all enslaved to doing evil all day long.

AFTER God has chosen us and AFTER we receive Jesus as our Lord and Savior is when our free will comes into play.

You now have the free will not to sin. Before this you had no free will not to sin!

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

Free will is pie in the sky.

WE never had free will because we are all enslaved to doing evil all day long.

AFTER God has chosen us and AFTER we receive Jesus as our Lord and Savior is when our free will comes into play.

You now have the free will not to sin. Before this you had no free will not to sin!

So, Adam and Eve used what exactly to choose the forbidden fruit? Pie?

 

[mpaper345]

Some people may say it is once saved,always saved,and the people that did not make it were never led of the Spirit.

But does scriptures say that after a person is saved,that if they do not take care concerning acting like Christ,that they can fall away.

So are the warnings in the Bible only for those that did not receive the Spirit,and God is warning them to receive the Spirit,or they will not get to dwell with Him.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Here is a warning that it is possible for a person saved,that they can be cut off,if they do not continue in God's goodness,after they started in God's goodness,which Jesus said any person putting their hand to the plow looking back,is not fit for the kingdom of God.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These people were saved,for they escaped from the pollution of the world,if they go back they shall be worse,for it had been better if they had not known the way of righteousness,then turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

So these people were saved,and escaped the ways of the world,but later on went back to them,and it would of had been better if they had not known than to turn from them.

This is a warning that it is possible for a person to lose out on salvation,but if these people were saved,and they went back to enjoying the world,it would of been better if they had not known if they never get back to the truth,for Jesus said those that knew not the truth,but did wrong shall be beat with few stripes,but those who knew the truth,and turn from it,shall be beat with many stripes.

But of course if a person does go back to enjoying things of the world,they can repent and be forgiven,but it means if they die without making it back,they will have lost out.

It does not mean they actually stopped believing in God,and Jesus is Lord and Savior,but they wanted to enjoy things of the world again,but all sin can be forgiven.

But it is a warning that it is possible for a person to lose out on salvation,which after they are saved,they can be forgiven of sins,but if a person does get caught up in the world again,they better beware,for they might not make it back,and if they die in a wrong state,they will stay that way for eternity.

If any person thinks they stand,take heed lest they fall.

 

[PeterJens]

Yet they continue to fight like it's a winner-take-all & their salvation is on the line!!!

I 100% agree. They actually believe we are not guaranteed anything, but rather arguing, exposing,
condemning, is part of their ministry.

If you hold a view that everything is in Gods hands, you leave it up to him.
On the other hand I believe in a real relationship, and peoples responsibility to choose to follow
and walk in love.

So when people behave in a denial of their own declared beliefs and attack me for being evil
to stand for love, purity and righteousness, they are 100% not what they appear.

There anger and antagonism, is obvious, and there desire to dominate and continually
correct and push their perspectives to a degree that is absurd, when in reality we agree in
theory on the basic elements, but in reality this idea of agreement with legalists would be
evil so they forever look for a reason to condemn their enemy and come out victorious.

A dangerous and agressive group. Remember to put on the full armour of God when meeting
them.

 

[Grace777x70]

I find that the ones that are saying we need "godliness" and to walk in purity and righteousness are in fact the very ones that exhibit malice and slander and name-calling and they think this is perfectly ok. ( this reality has been well documented here in CC ).

It is so ironic to see this in operation....talk about a license to sin!

 

[Yonah]

Lets see.... freewill or predestination??? YES

 

[SteelToedKodiak]

Lets see.... freewill or predestination??? YES

Is there a conflict there? I don't see it.

 

[UnderGrace]

What you have written is not being saved from God's wrath, you are talking about is discipleship.
Yes we can stop being disciples (learners) of Jesus and God deals with those people in His way.

Do not confuse salvation with regeneration and sanctification.

We are saved because of God's legal pronouncement, justified. This is the essence of the Pauline letters to the Romans. Perhaps this passage can explain it better than I can. My last attempt.

This legal verdict is therefore, not about making sinners righteous but declaring them righteous.

Justification itself does not mean that God changes people within making them morally upright. That is something connected with regeneration and sanctification. If justification were about a change within people then they would have some righteous act of their own on which to depend. Justification is about the righteous activity of someone else which is put to the account of those who have absolutely nothing in themselves to plead. It is about a change of status not a change of nature.

It concerns the righteousness of another put to the sinner’s account.

When Paul states in Romans 5:19 that ‘the many will be made righteous’, he does not mean that they are made morally upright. The verb ‘to make’ there means ‘to appoint’, ‘to constitute’.

He is referring to God’s judicial act in regarding them as righteous: they are set in the category of the righteous.

In their legal status before God they are really and truly righteous because of the righteous character and work of Christ.

Dr. Lloyd-Jones explains the meaning in this way: ‘Look at yourself in Adam; though you had done nothing you were declared a sinner. Look at yourself in Christ; and see that, though you have done nothing, you are declared to be righteous. That is the parallel.

What God has declared cannot be undone, He himself has made that very clear.

Paul said, "For he made him [Jesus] to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

The truly sad thing here is that your comments above COMPLETELY JUSTIFY my assertion that OSAS is a false theology/ideology, and you DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND that you have made MY ARGUMENT for me. That is truly sad.

The embolden part CLEARLY shows that you realize that WE HAVE A CHOICE! To stay in HIs loving arms and Grace, OR to TURN FROM Him and LEAVE Him. That IS FREE WILL. That IS NOT OSAS. OSAS teaches that once saved, a person CAN NOT CHOOSE TO LEAVE HIM.

Thank you though for proving that the proponents of OSAS do not even understand their own ideology.

 

[ukok102nak]

:haha: as it is written
:read:
Mga Taga-Colosas: 3. 1. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6. For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

7. In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

9. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10. And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[TonyJay]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

Love ya Bro...........but, this is what I spoke of in my first comment here. People who disagree with the ideology of OSAS are NOT living in fear, nor denying the wonderful gift of the grace of God. Yet, OSAS supporters must portray us to be such, and demean/degrade us for disagreeing with them. Not a lot of Christian love, fellowship and understanding/acceptance there is there. Seriously.

If we willingly accept those who support OSAS as Brothers and Sisters in Christ, why do you guys insist in demeaning and degrading us? I do not understand that. It's like you guys are the Saturday Sabbath Keepers hiding behind the veil of OSAS.

So, please explain to me why those who support the ideology of OSAS, deny the ideology of Free Will? Are you guys really Calvinist's in sheeps clothing? Hmm

(Inquiring minds wanna know )

Could you explain the apparent link here.
I seem to support the OSAS doctrine but as far as I can tell do not deny the reality of free will.
I would be interested in hearing your view on how the first (OSAS) seems to presuppose the second (denying free will).

 

[p_rehbein]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

Could you explain the apparent link here.
I seem to support the OSAS doctrine but as far as I can tell do not deny the reality of free will.
I would be interested in hearing your view on how the first (OSAS) seems to presuppose the second (denying free will).

It depends. Are you just fishing for ammo to attack me with after I explain my position? Or are you actually capable of exchanging ideas/beliefs in a civil and respectful manner? I have no desire to continue to be embroiled in conversations where I am belittled, demeaned, and berated simply because I disagree with someones view on a particular point of Theology. I am only interested in conversing with those who are willing to respect the rights of others to disagree.

If you are in the OSAS camp, that is fine with me. Believe as you are led to believe. However, I do disagree with the ideology of OSAS, and I will only discuss the reasons why with people who are respectful of my right to disagree, without them going on the attack.

 

[TonyJay]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

It depends. Are you just fishing for ammo to attack me with after I explain my position? Or are you actually capable of exchanging ideas/beliefs in a civil and respectful manner? I have no desire to continue to be embroiled in conversations where I am belittled, demeaned, and berated simply because I disagree with someones view on a particular point of Theology. I am only interested in conversing with those who are willing to respect the rights of others to disagree.

If you are in the OSAS camp, that is fine with me. Believe as you are led to believe. However, I do disagree with the ideology of OSAS, and I will only discuss the reasons why with people who are respectful of my right to disagree, without them going on the attack.

No, I am not looking to attack - I want your views on the topic so that I can review my position.
Like I said, to me OSAS and free will are not mutually exclusive, so I would be interested to look at your views.

In general, I periodically review my theology and this particular issue caught my attention.
In fact, email me if you feel more comfortable, it may help avoid taking flak from others.

 

[p_rehbein]

Re: Against OSAS: some of the best warnings to the church!

No, I am not looking to attack - I want your views on the topic so that I can review my position.
Like I said, to me OSAS and free will are not mutually exclusive, so I would be interested to look at your views.

In general, I periodically review my theology and this particular issue caught my attention.
In fact, email me if you feel more comfortable, it may help avoid taking flak from others.

Ok. I will trust that you are being honest with me. I have been "lured into" conversations here by some pretending to want a respectful exchange of ideas/belief, only to have them then turn around and attack me for anything I posted. However, I will trust that you are being honest with me.

The basic principle of once saved always saved is that once a person gives their life to Christ, and becomes a blood washed, born again child of the King, they can never lose that salvation. The most often used Scripture to support this belief is Romans 8:38-39. The problem with using these two Scriptures to support OSAS is that the Apostle is ONLY speaking of "outside" powers/forces when he asserts that they can not separate us from the Love of God. He does NOT state........"nor we ourselves"......... I fully agree that no outside power/force can separate us from the love of God, but that does not mean, nor does the Apostle state that we ourselves can separate us from the love of God.

They also use the statement Jesus made about never leaving or forsaking us. And I fully agree that He NEVER will, no matter what. However, He did not say that we could NEVER leave or forsake Him.

This is where "free will" comes in. Some people do not believe we have free will. That is fine, whatever they believe is between them and God. As long as they do not demand that I believe as they do. Some people believe in a "limited version" of free will. And they are the most confusing, because they can't seem to agree when free will starts and when it ends. However, they apparently believe free will has an expiration date or some such.

I am fully persuaded and firmly convinced that man has the God given gift of free will. I believe we choose to come to God seeking forgiveness and salvation. I also believe that we are presented the option of making this choice by the Holy Spirit convicting us of our sin-filled lives and calling on us to come to Christ. Jesus spoke of standing at the door and knocking. The Holy Spirit stands at the door of our hearts and knocks. We have the free will to choose to OPEN that door to Him, or to choose to NOT OPEN that door. As was described in Scripture when a certain person, said, not at this time, call upon me on a more convenient day. (paraphrased)

IF we have the free will to choose God........and to become blood washed born again children of the King.......then it must needs be that we ALSO have the free will to turn from Him, and separate ourselves from God. This is what OSAS denies. OSAS claims that no one can do this.

The "conflict" between the two beliefs/ideologies is very real, and should be very apparent. Some in the OSAS camp will say (as has been said on this thread) "well, sure we have a choice, but who would ever choose to forsake Him?" What they can not understand is that they, themselves are proving that OSAS is not true. By recognizing that we, IN FACT, DO have a choice, they are admitting that we ARE ABLE to deny Him, and turn from Him. Thus making void the belief of OSAS. This is the "limited version" of free will I spoke of above.

I can only conclude that they believe that once we are saved, God takes away our right to freely choose, our free will, and we are no longer afforded that right. This becomes the "watered down" version of the teachings of Calvin that I spoke of in different comments here. I DO NOT believe God does this. I believe that we (as did the Apostle) freely choose to take up our cross daily and follow him. This choosing of ours completely negates the teachings of OSAS in my opinion.

If anyone wants evidence of "free will" found in Scripture, they only have to start reading from the first verse of the first chapter of Matthew, through the last chapter and verse of Jude. EVERY TIME they come upon the wee, tiny word.......... IF ........... they should pause to realize that free will exists within that wee, tiny word. IF presents OPTIONS....... IF is the evidence that OSAS is not Biblical in my opinion.

God bless