Healing - What is this actually?

[PeterJens]

That is such a naturalistic mindset

My friends, there will always be people who claim to hold the key, that what they have discovered
is fantastic and we have all been deceived.

But just read acts. Peter was exceptional, even handkerchiefs would be touched and people would
be healed, but it was centred around Peter, which is why it was reported this way.

There have always been fake preachers, and people claiming things that were not true which is why
Thomas doubted the resurrection even though they had seen Lazerus risen by Jesus.

So far from being a naturalistic mindset, this is what truth and reality are founded upon.
It is the mystics who want to imagine a reality that does not exist rather than acknowledge with
Christ breaks in.

 

[Willie-T]

The problem with this whole discussion is every sunday people come together.
We face 3 people in their 90's with various stages of dementia. Now one is a christian,
two are not.

Over the past two years we have had very active members of the congregation develop
cancer, one which went into the brain, and the other I am not sure about. They both died.
I my house group, a long term friend developed cancer but did not want prayer directly,
but rather wanted to deal with it through the doctors etc.

So please do not think this is something far away from me or not a reminder constantly.
If I believed I just needed to pray, be healed and they would be, I would do that.

In London there is a mission called mission to London run by a faith healer. He was asked
to prove at his meeting anyone who had been healed, and out of the thousands of people, who
were called because he claimed the Lord would heal, he came up with zero healings.

So with the greatest of respects, though you say scripture says otherwise, scripture does not
promise healing and health and the experience of most christians, is they live with their
disabilities. Now for me personally I live a very healthy life, and am blessed with few issues,
but I am not going to claim this is anything but Gods grace.

And the temptation of avoiding doctors and healing is often around anti-schizophrenic medication
and epilepsy which will not show for some time if it has passed. Many christians live with these
conditions, and in the Lords grace cope.

What for me would be interesting is hearing of a church were all illnesses were washed clean,
and they walked for a year without issues. It would seem for those who claim such a high standard
of healing and blessing, this would not be a big ask?

What I do see is individuals claiming words but not delivering evidence. Over 30+ years this actually
means the claims are wrong.

Our pastor had his mother in a coma for 5 years who was a commited christian, and she never
recovered even though he very much believed in the power of God to reach out and raise people up.

It strikes me constantly we want simple answers to the mysteries of life, like a child wants presents
all the time because the alternative is much harder to work through.

Hummm. "Faith like a child"... nah, you're right, that doesn't sound Biblical at all.

 

[PeterJens]

The part that I put in bold and enlarged, that is telling. As of a matter of fact, if you did believe that you would be healed. That is the irony in your statement. If you actually believed that, and knew the Gospel truth that is through Christ's flesh we have healing and did pray and believe you might just be surprised with the results.

If you would step out and believe you would see results. You say if you believed that in prayer healing occurs you would step out. Then step out! Believe! Then be amazed at what the Lord does through a vessel who steps out in faith and see His word confirmed.

Ben, the point is life is not like this. Faith and belief are founded on understanding and knowing who Jesus is. At its core is a relationship.

Now though you claim great faith, you are the first to admit you cannot walk
in purity and righteousness, as I would describe it.

Your view is founded on what Christ has done alone, and not on the man who prays.
The problem with your position, is you have to put it into action, personally before I
will take you seriously. Healer heal yourself.

Either you say people are given the ministry of healing which is not specific to believers
so you are free from exercising this great faith you claim is there for the taking or you
need to take it yourself.

Now if the Lord lays on my heart to pray and reach out to people, then that is what I will
do.

Healing physically for me is a gift of grace, which fits particular situations, witnessing,
love being expressed to an individual, the Lords people agreeing, but is not part of
our daily walk.

The dilemma with healing is demonstrated by the 10 lepers who Jesus healed. Only
1 came back to ask about who healed them. People hold out the view that God
healing physically changes everything, when you can see though many believe He
does, still fail and drift away in their faith.

What grieves me, is this obvious dilemma is dealt with is such an unloving way.

And those who hold so strongly to God heals everything all the time, also hold
the prodigal son was not lost, but Jesus declared this very reality in the parable.

"For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate."
Luke 15:24

Also those who hold so strongly to miracles everywhere are so quick not to understand love and the
emotional realities of the heart. Again this is odd, that those who claim to know the power of God
know so little about His reality.

 

[UnderGrace]

A little confused......

Sickness is an enemy and it is not from our Father nor does He create it to "teach" His beloved children things. The Lord can take any situation we are in and reveal His love and grace to us in the midst of it but He is not the author of sickness.

when Jesus said....

John 9:2-3 (NIV) His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."

Also....

Moses, Caleb, Joshua and others that believed in God's word were all strong and healthy until it was their time to leave. Yes, this body will break down because of the sin that is in our flesh. ( Rom. 8:13 ).

So the body breaking down due to age is not a health issue? We are going to age but we will die healthy? If our heart fails is that not a health issue? The elderly do die from natural causes, however these are health related issues tied to aging, so when does God stop healing us so that we can age?

Or are you say we will be perfectly healthy and then one day God will just stop our heart? I know this is the myth about K. Hagin.

If God always heals the believer, then whatever part of the body that is not working at whatever age should be healed as well.
This would suggest there is immortality for the believer since whatever part is not functioning properly, should be prayed about and be healed?

 

[jb]

...Healing - What is this actually?

You can find a few thoughts Here on it...

 

[Willie-T]

You can find a few thoughts Here on it...

Excellent link.

 

[Grace777x70]

A little confused......

when Jesus said....

John 9:2-3 (NIV) His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life."

Also....



So the body breaking down due to age is not a health issue? We are going to age but we will die healthy? If our heart fails is that not a health issue? The elderly do die from natural causes, however these are health related issues tied to aging, so when does God stop healing us so that we can age?

Or are you say we will be perfectly healthy and then one day God will just stop our heart? I know this is the myth about K. Hagin.

If God always heals the believer, then whatever part of the body that is not working at whatever age should be healed as well.
This would suggest there is immortality for the believer since whatever part is not functioning properly, should be prayed about and be healed?

I will answer these questions this one time as the question is legitimate ( and this has been answered many times in the past too ) but there are great threads that discuss all about healing and I'm not really that interested in hashing over the same things over and over again as it causes dissention and can bring condemnation to some if not looked at it with the right mind frame.

Everyone is free to believe what ever they want too....

First off...the NIV translation is not accurate here. If you do a study you will find out that some words have been "added" to the text by the translators to express their bias. Here is the NASB and it too has the "added" words - "it was so".

John 9:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

So, take out the "it was so" as it's not there in the Greek.

So, now this scripture in context says. " Neither this man sinned nor his parents." then Jesus says this -

"But that the works of God might be displayed in him we must work the works of Him who sent me as long as there is day."

Then Jesus says He is the light of the world and then proceeds to heal him by spitting on the ground and making mud to put into the man's eyes. ( imagine the scandal if someone was to do that today - they would have websites up showing this "heretic"... )

So, Jesus didn't say that the man was made sick so that God could heal him - Jesus said 'In order to have the works of God displayed in him - we must work the works of God as long as there is day." That is a vast difference. The original Greek had no periods or punctuation in the manuscripts.

When we take out the "added" bias of the words of the translators - we see what Jesus was really saying and that was He must do the works of the Father to heal the man because it is God's will for him to be healed and sins have no bearing on this.

2nd part :

When the spirit of a person leaves the body - our heart will stop when our spirit leaves us. There have been many people that have simply just worn out their bodies and died without any disease.

The body will wear out as it ages but it doesn't have to have a disease. This is not a health issue - it's an age issue. Those are 2 separate things in my mind but maybe to others they are not.

The immortality part has been answered as there is a time to die as the body ages. We get new bodies though - that's something to look forward to!

As, I said - there is a time to leave this earth and to go be with the Lord.

 

[PeterJens]

The body will wear out as it ages but it doesn't have to have a disease. This is not a health issue - it's an age issue. Those are 2 separate things in my mind but maybe to others they are not.

Maybe people here have zero understanding of biology, because this above statement is almost
meaningless. Disease is a general word about forces or things that stop you body functioning and
in the end lead to death.

The phrase above simply does not understand what disease is.

Our bodies fight constantly to keep going, to repair, to function and continue.

But the construct here is suggesting disease is evil rather than a reflection our bodies
not being renewed constantly by God.

Latter rain theology implies some people will become super-men, eternal, and
run to rein with Christ. Now this is a massive stretch from Jesus's expectations
of a bloody and violent death for His followers.

What is also stunning is the condesention expressed by such believers while there
is a history of people who have believed this theology completely failing to see it
come into reality. How long does reality have to break in to change the delusions
of the actual ageing process is not happening which we all experience daily.

Hagin did not die happily but of a disease.

"A ministry spokesperson said Hagin collapsed after eating breakfast on Sept. 14. He was admitted to a cardiac intensive care unit, where he stayed until his death."

Does this invalidate his faith in Jesus or a reflection following Christ does not
mean you will not die because some part of your body fails due to some illness.

 

[PeterJens]

Hummm. "Faith like a child"... nah, you're right, that doesn't sound Biblical at all.

Imagine if you walked in front of a truck, lost a leg, and God would make it just
grow back. Or chop off a finger it would be replaced.

What is being discussed is like this concept, where we become indestructable.

But this is so far from reality. I have heard occasionally of people claiming
whole limbs growing back, but this is very rare even among miracle claimants.

But why not? I mean in this logic why should death hold any issue with us.
We have command authority to create things ex-nihilo, except this actually
means is we say we will get rich in 2 years, the money will come our way.
This is not exactly a heavenly printing press but situations desperately
twisted to fit rediculous claims.

And when you look at the claims, 3 billionaires will be created tonight.
How such words come out of anyone following Jesus is absurd, but these
are the people some are supporting here.

 

[Willie-T]

Imagine if you walked in front of a truck, lost a leg, and God would make it just
grow back. Or chop off a finger it would be replaced.

What is being discussed is like this concept, where we become indestructable.

But this is so far from reality. I have heard occasionally of people claiming
whole limbs growing back, but this is very rare even among miracle claimants.

But why not? I mean in this logic why should death hold any issue with us.
We have command authority to create things ex-nihilo, except this actually
means is we say we will get rich in 2 years, the money will come our way.
This is not exactly a heavenly printing press but situations desperately
twisted to fit rediculous claims.

And when you look at the claims, 3 billionaires will be created tonight.
How such words come out of anyone following Jesus is absurd, but these
are the people some are supporting here.

As I often find myself saying when I try to fathom some of your wild posts..... WTH are you even talking about?

 

[PeterJens]

As I often find myself saying when I try to fathom some of your wild posts..... WTH are you even talking about?

Let us go through this simply.

Jesus heals anything you ask Him to.
So if you loose a leg, pray and it will grow back.

The question is only having faith, or belief.

Now if this is a reality we would be super-human.
We could go into war, kill the enemy and be healed as we fought on.

This is not wild, it is merely the logical extension of your theology and
approach to Jesus.

I say this because if the Lord wanted he could enable this, be He has not.
If I take a childs point of view and those fighting on Gods side, why not?

Because this is not His way. Healing is a gift of love not a presumption or
a rank earnt. Cause and effect, sin has its consequences that are real, and
not simply wiped away as if they are not there unless something very significant
takes place like new birth.

 

[Willie-T]

Let us go through this simply.

Jesus heals anything you ask Him to.
So if you loose a leg, pray and it will grow back.

The question is only having faith, or belief.

Now if this is a reality we would be super-human.
We could go into war, kill the enemy and be healed as we fought on.

This is not wild, it is merely the logical extension of your theology and
approach to Jesus.

I say this because if the Lord wanted he could enable this, be He has not.
If I take a childs point of view and those fighting on Gods side, why not?

Because this is not His way. Healing is a gift of love not a presumption or
a rank earnt. Cause and effect, sin has its consequences that are real, and
not simply wiped away as if they are not there unless something very significant
takes place like new birth.

I think you may need to keep on schedule with your meds. Sometimes, as shown again in this post, you make absolutely no sense.

 

[UnderGrace]

Thank you, for answering this one time.

Something to think about.

I will answer these questions this one time as the question is legitimate ( and this has been answered many times in the past too ) but there are great threads that discuss all about healing and I'm not really that interested in hashing over the same things over and over again as it causes dissention and can bring condemnation to some if not looked at it with the right mind frame.

Everyone is free to believe what ever they want too....

First off...the NIV translation is not accurate here. If you do a study you will find out that some words have been "added" to the text by the translators to express their bias. Here is the NASB and it too has the "added" words - "it was so".

John 9:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] "We must work the works of Him who sent Me as long as it is day; night is coming when no one can work.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] "While I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."

So, take out the "it was so" as it's not there in the Greek.

So, now this scripture in context says. " Neither this man sinned nor his parents." then Jesus says this -

"But that the works of God might be displayed in him we must work the works of Him who sent me as long as there is day."

Then Jesus says He is the light of the world and then proceeds to heal him by spitting on the ground and making mud to put into the man's eyes. ( imagine the scandal if someone was to do that today - they would have websites up showing this "heretic"... )

So, Jesus didn't say that the man was made sick so that God could heal him - Jesus said 'In order to have the works of God displayed in him - we must work the works of God as long as there is day." That is a vast difference. The original Greek had no periods or punctuation in the manuscripts.

When we take out the "added" bias of the words of the translators - we see what Jesus was really saying and that was He must do the works of the Father to heal the man because it is God's will for him to be healed and sins have no bearing on this.

2nd part :

When the spirit of a person leaves the body - our heart will stop when our spirit leaves us. There have been many people that have simply just worn out their bodies and died without any disease.

The body will wear out as it ages but it doesn't have to have a disease. This is not a health issue - it's an age issue. Those are 2 separate things in my mind but maybe to others they are not.

The immortality part has been answered as there is a time to die as the body ages. We get new bodies though - that's something to look forward to!

As, I said - there is a time to leave this earth and to go be with the Lord.

 

[UnderGrace]

As I often find myself saying when I try to fathom some of your wild posts..... WTH are you even talking about?

Hmm..... surprised you kept to only WTH? I am sure you have much stronger in you.

 

[Willie-T]

Hmm..... surprised you kept to only WTH? I am sure you have much stronger in you.

Nope, "What The Heck" is the best I could do.

 

[UnderGrace]

I do understand what you are saying, if we see healing as something that we are entitled to, then this would mean that whenever we pray it will happen.

So if we take this thinking to its logical conclusion then we would be able to injure ourselves and expect to be healed in war like you state.

This is a good point because certainly Jesus did not heal every sickness that existed while He walked this earth, why should we expect that He would now?

I agree that this approach to Jesus is problematic.

Let us go through this simply.

Jesus heals anything you ask Him to.
So if you loose a leg, pray and it will grow back.

The question is only having faith, or belief.

Now if this is a reality we would be super-human.
We could go into war, kill the enemy and be healed as we fought on.

This is not wild, it is merely the logical extension of your theology and
approach to Jesus.

I say this because if the Lord wanted he could enable this, be He has not.
If I take a childs point of view and those fighting on Gods side, why not?

Because this is not His way. Healing is a gift of love not a presumption or
a rank earnt. Cause and effect, sin has its consequences that are real, and
not simply wiped away as if they are not there unless something very significant
takes place like new birth.

 

[BenFTW]

Let us go through this simply.

Jesus heals anything you ask Him to.
So if you loose a leg, pray and it will grow back.

The question is only having faith, or belief.

Now if this is a reality we would be super-human.
We could go into war, kill the enemy and be healed as we fought on.

This is not wild, it is merely the logical extension of your theology and
approach to Jesus.

I say this because if the Lord wanted he could enable this, be He has not.
If I take a childs point of view and those fighting on Gods side, why not?

Because this is not His way. Healing is a gift of love not a presumption or
a rank earnt. Cause and effect, sin has its consequences that are real, and
not simply wiped away as if they are not there unless something very significant
takes place like new birth.

Are you not calling God a liar? His word is plain. VVhy are you trying to add caveats? Ask and you shall receive, there was no if, and, or buts involved. He says, "VVhat things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that you receive them and ye shall have them." Notice the expectancy in the verse, the faith in believing it is already yours.

You are trying to bring a spiritual truth into a naturalistic mindset. One might compare this to the law of sowing and reaping. In the natural one would say that to give is to subtract. If I have ten apples and give away one I now have nine apples. I subtracted from my total amount of apples.

However, God works in a paradox to this notion, He says give and you shall receive. It is multiplication and not subtraction. He says in proverbs that if you help the poor it is like lending to the Lord and He shall repay you. You see, all of these spiritual laws or truths in God's word are plain but if you take them and try to put it in a worldview outside of God (naturalistic/materialistic) you end denying God, and calling Him a liar. VVhere is your faith?

You are looking at the results instead of God's word. If you'd realize that the results are based upon God's word then you'd understand God has the last say over any situation in life. His word stands true. Yet would you take your own reasoning, your own perception over the truth of God's word?

Healing does not come by presumption, it comes through Jesus Christ. Through His flesh. He not only forgives all our sins but he too heals all our sicknesses and diseases according to His word. VVill you take Him at His word, or will you reason in such a manner to make Him a liar?

 

[UnderGrace]

So have you prayed for a million dollars? Cause you know if I only had a million dollars I'd be rich.

Are you not calling God a liar? His word is plain. VVhy are you trying to add caveats? Ask and you shall receive, there was no if, and, or buts involved. He says, "VVhat things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that you receive them and ye shall have them." Notice the expectancy in the verse, the faith in believing it is already yours.

You are trying to bring a spiritual truth into a naturalistic mindset. One might compare this to the law of sowing and reaping. In the natural one would say that to give is to subtract. If I have ten apples and give away one I now have nine apples. I subtracted from my total amount of apples.

However, God works in a paradox to this notion, He says give and you shall receive. It is multiplication and not subtraction. He says in proverbs that if you help the poor it is like lending to the Lord and He shall repay you. You see, all of these spiritual laws or truths in God's word are plain but if you take them and try to put it in a worldview outside of God (naturalistic/materialistic) you end denying God, and calling Him a liar. VVhere is your faith?

You are looking at the results instead of God's word. If you'd realize that the results are based upon God's word then you'd understand God has the last say over any situation in life. His word stands true. Yet would you take your own reasoning, your own perception over the truth of God's word?

Healing does not come by presumption, it comes through Jesus Christ. Through His flesh. He not only forgives all our sins but he too heals all our sicknesses and diseases according to His word. VVill you take Him at His word, or will you reason in such a manner to make Him a liar?

 

[BenFTW]

I do understand what you are saying, if we see healing as something that we are entitled to, then this would mean that whenever we pray it will happen.

So if we take this thinking to its logical conclusion then we would be able to injure ourselves and expect to be healed in war like you state.

This is a good point because certainly Jesus did not heal every sickness that existed while He walked this earth, why should we expect that He would now?

I agree that this approach to Jesus is problematic.

Is not Christ entitled to all that He purchased through His death and suffering? Did Christ die in vain or does He enjoy the fruit of His sacrifice? Did He not pay for sickness and disease through His flesh recorded in Isaiah 53 and brought up in Matthew 8:17? A person's sin is easily forgiven through faith in Jesus, why cannot their bodies so easily receive healing then? Just as He paid for sin, and you believe this, He paid for our healing, no? The only entitlement to healing that we have is that Christ has purchased it and it is His good pleasure to distribute it. It brings Him glory and reveals His goodness.

 

[BenFTW]

So have you prayed for a million dollars? Cause you know if I only had a million dollars I'd be rich.

If you want a million dollars from the Lord and have good and righteous intentions, why would the Lord withhold His providence? Tell me?

Ecclesiastes 5:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

If you want a million dollars by all means make such a request. Open up your mind, set it free from a poverty mentality and realize that you can be blessed to be a blessing. Have righteous intents and understand it is okay to enjoy the fruit of your labor. To enjoy the wealth the Lord has given you. Yet, do not forget to give, to bless, and use such finances for His glory. To extend His Kingdom and support His ministries upon the earth.