THE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE DOES NOT FIT LAST DAYS PROPHECY ABOUT NOAH
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Just by looking up my own posts here on this Forum about the Pre-trib Rapture theory of man, one will get an enlightened education within God's Word... PER the written Scriptures, showing that it is a FALSEHOOD devised by men.
You have not been able to provide 'any' Scripture proof that the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine is a Biblical doctrine. All you have done, as you guys usually do, is to provide 'mouth service' while denying the Scriptures as written.
You have not been able to provide 'any' Scripture proof that the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine is a Biblical doctrine. All you have done, as you guys usually do, is to provide 'mouth service' while denying the Scriptures as written.
Nowhere there in 1 Thess.4 does Apostle Paul say WHEN that "caught up" event is to happen.
Just by you quoting from 1 Thess.4 does not mean it happens when you 'want' it to. One MUST rely on other Scripture to find undeniable proof of WHEN that event is to happen:
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
That example is about the 1 Thess.4 gathering of Christ's Church that are the 'asleep' saints that had already died. He gathers them from one end of heaven to the other, and brings them with Him like Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.4:14:
1 Thess 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV
In the Mark 13 example, Jesus is speaking of the His Church still alive on earth being gathered, and is what Paul was talking about with those still alive on earth being "caught up":
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
Thusly, BOTH examples in Matt.24 and Mark 13 are a Testimony of Christ's 2nd coming to gather His Church, His elect, according to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.
Just by you quoting from 1 Thess.4 does not mean it happens when you 'want' it to. One MUST rely on other Scripture to find undeniable proof of WHEN that event is to happen:
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
That example is about the 1 Thess.4 gathering of Christ's Church that are the 'asleep' saints that had already died. He gathers them from one end of heaven to the other, and brings them with Him like Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.4:14:
1 Thess 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV
In the Mark 13 example, Jesus is speaking of the His Church still alive on earth being gathered, and is what Paul was talking about with those still alive on earth being "caught up":
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
Thusly, BOTH examples in Matt.24 and Mark 13 are a Testimony of Christ's 2nd coming to gather His Church, His elect, according to what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.
There is only a ONE-TIME COMING OF CHRIST back to this earth that is written. Christ's FIRST COMING was almost 2,000 years ago when He came in the flesh to die on the cross! That is all... the Old Testament prophets were given to write about, Christ's 1st coming to die on the cross, and Christ's 2nd coming to destroy those who destroy the earth, and gather His Faithful Church on His way to Jerusalem.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not confirm anything in John 14:2-3 & 28, because John 14 DOES NOT say 'where' those "mansions" will be! You pre-tribbers only assume... they will be up in the clouds because you refuse to study the rest... of God's Word to know where those abodes will really be. Ezekiel 40-47 would be a start. Revelation 5:10 would be another start:
Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV
Christ's elect priests and kings will reign where??? Up in the clouds??? NO!!! ON THE EARTH!
The rest of you post is simply 'madness'. Especially those ideas like Jesus used John as a symbol for the Church being raptured. John was in The Spirit, meaning he was given by God to see VISIONS. His flesh body didn't go anywhere to do that, because he was in prison on Patmos like he said! Nor did the Old Testament prophets have to go anywhere when God caused them to see visions of the heavenly! Your Biblical illiteracy is maddening!
You guys are going to be sorely disappointed when you finally come to realize there is not going to be a rapture prior to the tribulation. Sadly though, most of you on that pre-trib doctrine probably won't even recognize the coming Antichrist for who he really is, and might even think he's our Lord Jesus. That is who the pre-trib doctors are really preparing you for if you listen to them.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not confirm anything in John 14:2-3 & 28, because John 14 DOES NOT say 'where' those "mansions" will be! You pre-tribbers only assume... they will be up in the clouds because you refuse to study the rest... of God's Word to know where those abodes will really be. Ezekiel 40-47 would be a start. Revelation 5:10 would be another start:
Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV
Christ's elect priests and kings will reign where??? Up in the clouds??? NO!!! ON THE EARTH!
The rest of you post is simply 'madness'. Especially those ideas like Jesus used John as a symbol for the Church being raptured. John was in The Spirit, meaning he was given by God to see VISIONS. His flesh body didn't go anywhere to do that, because he was in prison on Patmos like he said! Nor did the Old Testament prophets have to go anywhere when God caused them to see visions of the heavenly! Your Biblical illiteracy is maddening!
You guys are going to be sorely disappointed when you finally come to realize there is not going to be a rapture prior to the tribulation. Sadly though, most of you on that pre-trib doctrine probably won't even recognize the coming Antichrist for who he really is, and might even think he's our Lord Jesus. That is who the pre-trib doctors are really preparing you for if you listen to them.
P
[FONT="]5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e]is taken out of the way. [/FONT][FONT="][/FONT][FONT="]8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
[/FONT][FONT="]referring to the holy spirit.[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="]referring to the holy spirit.[/FONT]
That's just a jumbled up mess of inconsistent ideas, but I'll try to make headway out of it.
2 Thess.2:2-3, and 7-8 have NOTHING to do with a Pre-trib Rapture. What the 2 Thess.2:1-8 verses declare, as they all go together in context, is Apostle Paul warning the Thessalonians to not listen to deceivers that were telling lies about the event of Christ's 2nd coming! Paul then told them TWO EVENTS MUST OCCUR FIRST PRIOR TO CHRIST'S COMING TO GATHER THE CHURCH:
1. a great falling away must occur, and...
2. the Antichrist must be revealed sitting in the temple of God which is about Jerusalem, and that he will exalt himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.
There is NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IDEA THERE at all. It is pointing directly to a POST-TRIBULATIONAL COMING OF CHRIST, AND GATHERING OF HIS CHURCH.
The Antichrist must be revealed sitting in the temple in Jerusalem, and a great falling away must occur first.
2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV
I'll even break it down for 1st graders here:
v.3 - "Let no man deceive you by any means:" -
that means don't listen to the pre-trib rapture deceivers, because they're like the deceivers here in Paul's day trying to twist this order of Christ's coming after the tribulation.
"for that day shall not come, except..." - that means the day of Christ's coming to gather us, will not happen "except", which is a condition. What's the condition required?
"there come a falling away first," - here's the 1st condition that MUST happen first, a great falling away, the Greek word is 'apostasia', which is where we get our English word 'apostasy'. It means to fall away from what once believed and held to. It means to fall away from the Faith on Jesus Christ and follow something else, or another in place of Jesus.
"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" v.4, "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." - this is the 2nd condition of what MUST happen prior to our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church. Is it any wonder that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors love to leave this 2nd condition out of their theory? Did you notice Quasar92 failed to include this 2 Thess.2:4 verse when he cited the 3rd verse? This event of this false one, the "man of sin", the "son of perdition", "that Wicked", the one who comes working great signs and lying wonders, after the working of Satan, is one of the MOST important topics Apostle Paul was covering here in 2 Thess.2 of the events to occur prior to Christ's coming to gather His 'Faithful' Church.
Did anyone see anything in that about a Pre-trib Rapture of the Church? No, you didn't see anything of that sort there. Good reason too, because there ain't nothing written there about a pre-trib rapture of the Church. It's all pointing to a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of the Church.
The order is this:
1. great falling away
2. "man of sin" revealed sitting in the temple in Jerusalem, exalting himself as God (tribulation timing)
3. Jesus' coming to destroy "that Wicked" one and gather His Faithful Church.
Now see folks, some people have difficulty remembering something they read at the start of a Chapter, things like this:
2 Thess 2:1
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
KJV
In Paul's very first statement in that Chapter he tells us what the subject is, i.e., "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him."
Did Paul say Jesus' 3rd coming like those in the false Pre-trib Rapture preach? No, Paul said nothing of that sort. Paul was talking about Jesus' 2nd and only time of return, which is the same day He gathers His Faithful Church. That's the day Paul was talking about there. So if that "man of sin" is still in operation to that day Jesus comes, that also is the day Jesus gathers us, which is what timing folks? That's right, AFTER THE TRIBULATION. We don't go anywhere until Jesus comes to end the tribulation.
2 Thess.2:2-3, and 7-8 have NOTHING to do with a Pre-trib Rapture. What the 2 Thess.2:1-8 verses declare, as they all go together in context, is Apostle Paul warning the Thessalonians to not listen to deceivers that were telling lies about the event of Christ's 2nd coming! Paul then told them TWO EVENTS MUST OCCUR FIRST PRIOR TO CHRIST'S COMING TO GATHER THE CHURCH:
1. a great falling away must occur, and...
2. the Antichrist must be revealed sitting in the temple of God which is about Jerusalem, and that he will exalt himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.
There is NO PRE-TRIB RAPTURE IDEA THERE at all. It is pointing directly to a POST-TRIBULATIONAL COMING OF CHRIST, AND GATHERING OF HIS CHURCH.
The Antichrist must be revealed sitting in the temple in Jerusalem, and a great falling away must occur first.
2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV
I'll even break it down for 1st graders here:
v.3 - "Let no man deceive you by any means:" -
that means don't listen to the pre-trib rapture deceivers, because they're like the deceivers here in Paul's day trying to twist this order of Christ's coming after the tribulation.
"for that day shall not come, except..." - that means the day of Christ's coming to gather us, will not happen "except", which is a condition. What's the condition required?
"there come a falling away first," - here's the 1st condition that MUST happen first, a great falling away, the Greek word is 'apostasia', which is where we get our English word 'apostasy'. It means to fall away from what once believed and held to. It means to fall away from the Faith on Jesus Christ and follow something else, or another in place of Jesus.
"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" v.4, "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." - this is the 2nd condition of what MUST happen prior to our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church. Is it any wonder that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors love to leave this 2nd condition out of their theory? Did you notice Quasar92 failed to include this 2 Thess.2:4 verse when he cited the 3rd verse? This event of this false one, the "man of sin", the "son of perdition", "that Wicked", the one who comes working great signs and lying wonders, after the working of Satan, is one of the MOST important topics Apostle Paul was covering here in 2 Thess.2 of the events to occur prior to Christ's coming to gather His 'Faithful' Church.
Did anyone see anything in that about a Pre-trib Rapture of the Church? No, you didn't see anything of that sort there. Good reason too, because there ain't nothing written there about a pre-trib rapture of the Church. It's all pointing to a post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering of the Church.
The order is this:
1. great falling away
2. "man of sin" revealed sitting in the temple in Jerusalem, exalting himself as God (tribulation timing)
3. Jesus' coming to destroy "that Wicked" one and gather His Faithful Church.
Now see folks, some people have difficulty remembering something they read at the start of a Chapter, things like this:
2 Thess 2:1
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
KJV
In Paul's very first statement in that Chapter he tells us what the subject is, i.e., "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him."
Did Paul say Jesus' 3rd coming like those in the false Pre-trib Rapture preach? No, Paul said nothing of that sort. Paul was talking about Jesus' 2nd and only time of return, which is the same day He gathers His Faithful Church. That's the day Paul was talking about there. So if that "man of sin" is still in operation to that day Jesus comes, that also is the day Jesus gathers us, which is what timing folks? That's right, AFTER THE TRIBULATION. We don't go anywhere until Jesus comes to end the tribulation.
Time for a refresher about my OP regarding our Lord Jesus using the event of the flood of Noah's days to describe what happens to the deceived and wicked during the tribulation. You guys do realize... it's the deceived and wicked that He was talking about here...
Matt 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV
Our Lord Jesus is NOT... using that as a symbol for a pre-trib rapture of the Church! He is talking about what the wicked will suffer in the end of days.
In Rev.12 about the waters as a flood out of the serpent's (Satan) mouth cast after the woman, that's what the flood waters of Noah's day represent for the tribulation time. Per Rev.12, the earth swallowed the waters of a flood out of the dragon's mouth, and then he goes to make WAR upon Christ's Church at the very end. And he knows he has but a short time. But that's all in the Revelation 12 chapter, not here in Matthew 24 where our Lord Jesus is using the times of Noah to show what happens to the wicked.
That's why it's so asinine when those on the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men try to use this Matt.24 quote as proof of a pre-trib rapture! They do the very same thing with the two in the field, one taken and the other left, also, and totally miss how Jesus was applying that too. The first one 'taken' is to Antichrist, not a rapture to Jesus (see the last verse of Luke 17 where Jesus' disciples asked Him where that first one would be taken to).
Matt 24:37-39
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
KJV
Our Lord Jesus is NOT... using that as a symbol for a pre-trib rapture of the Church! He is talking about what the wicked will suffer in the end of days.
In Rev.12 about the waters as a flood out of the serpent's (Satan) mouth cast after the woman, that's what the flood waters of Noah's day represent for the tribulation time. Per Rev.12, the earth swallowed the waters of a flood out of the dragon's mouth, and then he goes to make WAR upon Christ's Church at the very end. And he knows he has but a short time. But that's all in the Revelation 12 chapter, not here in Matthew 24 where our Lord Jesus is using the times of Noah to show what happens to the wicked.
That's why it's so asinine when those on the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men try to use this Matt.24 quote as proof of a pre-trib rapture! They do the very same thing with the two in the field, one taken and the other left, also, and totally miss how Jesus was applying that too. The first one 'taken' is to Antichrist, not a rapture to Jesus (see the last verse of Luke 17 where Jesus' disciples asked Him where that first one would be taken to).
From DP's above post.
"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" v.4, "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." - this is the 2nd condition of what MUST happen prior to our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church. Is it any wonder that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors love to leave this 2nd condition out of their theory? Did you notice Quasar92 failed to include this 2 Thess.2:4 verse when he cited the 3rd verse? This event of this false one, the "man of sin", the "son of perdition", "that Wicked", the one who comes working great signs and lying wonders, after the working of Satan, is one of the MOST important topics Apostle Paul was covering here in 2 Thess.2 of the events to occur prior to Christ's coming to gather His 'Faithful' Church.
This man of sin is the same as the "Abomination that causes desolation" mentioned in verse 31 of Daniel chapter 11. The tribulation mentioned that occurs at this time is only the desolation that is caused by this man. The Great Tribulation comes later, after the rapture.
"and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" v.4, "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." - this is the 2nd condition of what MUST happen prior to our Lord Jesus' coming to gather His Church. Is it any wonder that the Pre-trib Rapture doctors love to leave this 2nd condition out of their theory? Did you notice Quasar92 failed to include this 2 Thess.2:4 verse when he cited the 3rd verse? This event of this false one, the "man of sin", the "son of perdition", "that Wicked", the one who comes working great signs and lying wonders, after the working of Satan, is one of the MOST important topics Apostle Paul was covering here in 2 Thess.2 of the events to occur prior to Christ's coming to gather His 'Faithful' Church.
This man of sin is the same as the "Abomination that causes desolation" mentioned in verse 31 of Daniel chapter 11. The tribulation mentioned that occurs at this time is only the desolation that is caused by this man. The Great Tribulation comes later, after the rapture.
No, the "abomination of desolation" event is about the placing of a idol inside the temple for false worship. That's exactly what Antiochus IV did in 170 B.C. Jerusalem, desolating the 2nd temple.
The great tribulation happens first, which is the time when that "man of sin" Paul was talking about, will sit in the temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God. That's what the making of the image of the beast at the end of Rev.13 is about.
The great tribulation happens first, which is the time when that "man of sin" Paul was talking about, will sit in the temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God. That's what the making of the image of the beast at the end of Rev.13 is about.
The beast out of the sea is the Antichrist, whether you accept iot or not. The following are other places in the Bible where the final world ruler is found, before the return of Jesus in His second coming to the earth WITH His Church.
As I have told you previously, prophecy cannot be accurately interpreted through the attempt to do so by allegorical spiritualizing it.
1 Jn.2:18 is the only place in the Bible where the term Antichrist is found. But he is referred to by a number of different terms as recorded below, and where to find them:
1. He is the "little horn" in Dan.7:8; 2. He is known as a "stern faced king, in Dan.8:23. 3. He is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. 4. In 2 Thess.2:3, he is referred to as "the man of lawlessness." 5. In 2 Thess.2:8-9, he is referred to as the "lawless one." 6. In Rev.11:7; 17:3, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 16 and 17, he is called the beast. 7. In Rev.13:1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, he is called the beast out of the Sea.
Fully endorsed by the following esteemed men of God:
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]
1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.
Quasar92
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The problem with the OP as well as the above post, is the fact you fail to recognize who Jesus was addressing! It was NOT the Church. He was addressing Israel, exclusively, as He made crystal clear in Mt.10:5-6 and 15:24. The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet arrived, according to Jn.7:30, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:1-3.
Quasar92
1 Thess 4:14-15
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (Greek phthano = precede) them which are asleep.
KJV
Well I guess you missed that from Apostle Paul then. It means we who are alive on earth shall NOT Precede (go before) the asleep saints. They are RESURRECTED FIRST, and then those of us alive on earth are gathered with them, in that order.
1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV
Paul is showing the same order of the gathering to Christ there in 1 Cor.15, the asleep saints are resurrected first, and then those of us alive on earth are gathered, in that order.
1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV
That of course means, the resurrection happens first, and then Christ's Faithful who are still alive on earth are gathered. And there is ONLY ONE TIME when the RESURRECTION happens, and it's on the very LAST day of this world, which of course means a Post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering to Him.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (Greek phthano = precede) them which are asleep.
KJV
Well I guess you missed that from Apostle Paul then. It means we who are alive on earth shall NOT Precede (go before) the asleep saints. They are RESURRECTED FIRST, and then those of us alive on earth are gathered with them, in that order.
1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV
Paul is showing the same order of the gathering to Christ there in 1 Cor.15, the asleep saints are resurrected first, and then those of us alive on earth are gathered, in that order.
1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV
That of course means, the resurrection happens first, and then Christ's Faithful who are still alive on earth are gathered. And there is ONLY ONE TIME when the RESURRECTION happens, and it's on the very LAST day of this world, which of course means a Post-tribulational coming of Christ and gathering to Him.
Previously posted by DP
"That's just a jumbled up mess of inconsistent ideas, but I'll try to make headway out of it."
Which was your response to my quote: >>>In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!
Either prove the above to be "a jumbled up mess"/false, or your attempt at interpreting the prophetic Scriptures by allegorical spiritualizing it is false!
Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible, as I have asked you previously?
Quasar92
"That's just a jumbled up mess of inconsistent ideas, but I'll try to make headway out of it."
Which was your response to my quote: >>>In the FIRST of His TWO comings, recorded in 1 Thess.4:16, yet to take place, confirming Jn.14:2-3, 28! From where the Church is seen in heaven BEFORE the tribulation begins, in Rev.4:1-2. Where Jesus used John to symbolically represent the Church. Confirming 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8! Where the Church is seen in heaven later, at the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus. While the tribulation is taking place on earth, recorded in Rev.19:7-8. From where Jesus will return to the earth in the SECOND, of His TWO comings, yet to take place, WITH HIS CHURCH, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in 19:14, confirming Zech.14:4-5 and Acts 1:6; 1:11; 2:29-30 and 15:16! From which the above Scriptures leave no other options!
Either prove the above to be "a jumbled up mess"/false, or your attempt at interpreting the prophetic Scriptures by allegorical spiritualizing it is false!
Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible, as I have asked you previously?
Quasar92
P
The GT IS from Gods departure and the Satan man's arrival.
Right away,early in the GT,we see the billions of martyrs IN HEAVEN,BEFORE THE THRONE.
Note that right before that,they are not allowed in the general population of heaven,but confined under the altar till "their number be fulfilled"
The only reason we see the Gt/ wrath concept made a pivotal issue is to give a mid trib rapture traction.
The ac is a tool. As are the vial and seal judgments
There is a rapture/harvest late in the GT in rev 14.
Knowing the GT is actually a purpose,helps understand what is actually going on.
It is the second chance for the fence sitters,the 5 foolish virgins,and the harvest of the Jews.
Rev 14; the 144k are harvested as firstfruit Jews ,then the "ripe fruit" or jews remaining.
Remember,the protocol of heaven is " last first,first last"
The WHOLE DEAL,WHOLE DEAL,is to fill the table ate the wedding. With Out that knowledge,nobody will understand what is actually going on.
Postrobs have no clue as to purpose. They load verses in a blender, push the button,and of course,jibberish pours out.
The GT IS redemption.
With out that cornerstone the deal is man centered.
(perverted perspective)
The entirety of the GT is GOD CENTERED.
Almost nobody brings up the bride. The heartbeat of end times,the core of GOD'S purpose,and how he ends life on the planet as we now know it.
You can only sit in wonderment and watch,as Christians turn end times into a jousting of words and cliché based arguments,totally oblivious to the whole purpose of the gathering of the bride,the 5 foolish through martyrdom,and then the gathering of his Jewish covenant people. All to fill the wedding feast table.
Just beyond the imagination
Right away,early in the GT,we see the billions of martyrs IN HEAVEN,BEFORE THE THRONE.
Note that right before that,they are not allowed in the general population of heaven,but confined under the altar till "their number be fulfilled"
The only reason we see the Gt/ wrath concept made a pivotal issue is to give a mid trib rapture traction.
The ac is a tool. As are the vial and seal judgments
There is a rapture/harvest late in the GT in rev 14.
Knowing the GT is actually a purpose,helps understand what is actually going on.
It is the second chance for the fence sitters,the 5 foolish virgins,and the harvest of the Jews.
Rev 14; the 144k are harvested as firstfruit Jews ,then the "ripe fruit" or jews remaining.
Remember,the protocol of heaven is " last first,first last"
The WHOLE DEAL,WHOLE DEAL,is to fill the table ate the wedding. With Out that knowledge,nobody will understand what is actually going on.
Postrobs have no clue as to purpose. They load verses in a blender, push the button,and of course,jibberish pours out.
The GT IS redemption.
With out that cornerstone the deal is man centered.
(perverted perspective)
The entirety of the GT is GOD CENTERED.
Almost nobody brings up the bride. The heartbeat of end times,the core of GOD'S purpose,and how he ends life on the planet as we now know it.
You can only sit in wonderment and watch,as Christians turn end times into a jousting of words and cliché based arguments,totally oblivious to the whole purpose of the gathering of the bride,the 5 foolish through martyrdom,and then the gathering of his Jewish covenant people. All to fill the wedding feast table.
Just beyond the imagination
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Matthew 10:5-6 was when He sent them out to preach The Gospel the first time, before He was delivered up to be crucified. He then later told His disciples this:
Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV
Got to cover all of God's Word to understand, not just bits and pieces you try to use just to prove a theory of men.
God's Church began back in Old Testament times:
Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV
That's the Church Apostle Paul is speaking of there. Paul says the Apostles AND... the prophets (OT prophets) are also part of the "foundation" of that "holy temple in the Lord"!
But man, which YOU follow, tries to say different, which does not align with God's Word.
Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV
Got to cover all of God's Word to understand, not just bits and pieces you try to use just to prove a theory of men.
God's Church began back in Old Testament times:
Eph 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV
That's the Church Apostle Paul is speaking of there. Paul says the Apostles AND... the prophets (OT prophets) are also part of the "foundation" of that "holy temple in the Lord"!
But man, which YOU follow, tries to say different, which does not align with God's Word.