So what about the fourth commandment?

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LaurenTM

Guest
Originally Posted by Grace777x70
Actually in real life - believers in Christ that know He is the our true Sabbath rest and these are the very ones "observing Him as holy" and obeying God's commands in the New Covenant. 1 John 3:23




No, the Savior is not a day of the week. sorry.
The Savior is a lot of things, including our only hope for justification.
But again, He is not the 7th day of the week.
That may sound good on Sun-day morning, but it is just political grand-standing.
I know Grace can answer for himself, but that is not what he is saying

you don't understand what he is saying, because of the deceptive teaching you favor

you folks just cannot seem to believe that faith is the requirement for salvation...not law and not what day of the week you go to church

the real church, are the believers

all your law nonsense is but a shadow of the truth
 

beta

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Aug 8, 2016
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Why does it need to be clarified to you?
Now you are being silly....you just pulled a verse out of scripture I could not relate to in our discussion. I guess I could have ignored it.
 
L

LaurenTM

Guest
Folks who reject the Sabbath are like little children making excuses.

Parent: I told you to clean your room.
Child: I did clean my room.
Parent: The bed's not made.
Child: You didn't say to make the bed - you said to clean my room.

:D

well, that is your opinion

you do not understand what the Sabbath day rest is

you think keeping one day special makes you more holy

nothing you do is holy if done outside of what is required for salvation

obedience starts IN Christ

not in your efforts to be a good boy
 
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Now you are being silly....you just pulled a verse out of scripture I could not relate to in our discussion. I guess I could have ignored it.
It would be a great blessing to me and you for you to ignore me.
 

beta

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Aug 8, 2016
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Don't you have the Spirit of truth within you?
I could ask you the same...since you don't seem to understand me and refuse to give an explanation !
 
O

Officermayo

Guest
I know Grace can answer for himself, but that is not what he is saying

you don't understand what he is saying, because of the deceptive teaching you favor

you folks just cannot seem to believe that faith is the requirement for salvation...not law and not what day of the week you go to church

the real church, are the believers

all your law nonsense is but a shadow of the truth
And you cannot seem to understand that nobody who favors keeping the Sabbath sees it as having anything to do with their salvation. You keep throwing that into the discussion as a way to support your not wanting to keep the Sabbath when it isn't even part of the issue.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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And you cannot seem to understand that nobody who favors keeping the Sabbath sees it as having anything to do with their salvation. You keep throwing that into the discussion as a way to support your not wanting to keep the Sabbath when it isn't even part of the issue.

Is breaking the Jewish Sabbath as is outlined in the Law of Moses - is that sinning for the believer in Christ to not to physically observe the Jewish Sabbath which is on Saturday?
 

beta

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Aug 8, 2016
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But I asked you first. That is the difference.
Ask me what ? or do you want me to answer something I can't make sense of ?
please repeat your question and we will try again....if you want to.
 
Aug 11, 2016
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Ask me what ? or do you want me to answer something I can't make sense of ?
please repeat your question and we will try again....if you want to.
How much do you love Jesus?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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No, the Savior is not a day of the week. sorry.
The Savior is a lot of things, including our only hope for justification.
But again, He is not the 7th day of the week.
That may sound good on Sun-day morning, but it is just political grand-standing.

Of course He is not a day of the week. He is our Sabbath rest as Hebrews talks about.

Hebrews 4:9-11 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. (
This is referring to your fleshly efforts to keep the Law including the Sabbath as outlined in the Old Covenant.)

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Here Paul says that the Law was nailed to the Cross with Jesus. He is talking about the ten commandments here as in the next verse he talks about the Sabbath day.

Colossians 2:14-17 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—

[SUP]17 [/SUP] things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; bu
t the substance belongs to Christ.

What is a shadow? It is not the real person or thing, but it gives us information about the real person or thing. If I was around the corner of a building so that you could not see me but you could see my shadow, then that shadow could give you useful information. It could tell you if I was moving or standing still. And if I was moving, it could tell you whether I was coming closer or moving away. It could provide you with vague information about what I looked like. But it’s only a shadow.


If I walked around the corner and was in full view, it would be crazy for you to hug my shadow. Its only value is in the way it represents me. I would be the one you would want to greet and talk to.

Likewise, the Sabbath and the other four things listed in Colossians 2:16 were shadows of New Testament realities.

Those who cling to the shadow are missing the real person of Jesus and the rest that is now ours in Him.


You are trying to turn Christ to be a fleshly observance of an obsolete Old Covenant Law which He has already fulfilled and thus missing out on Christ Himself.
 
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Of course He is not a day of the week. He is our Sabbath rest as Hebrews talks about.

Hebrews 4:9-11 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

I am glad you went there.
There remains a Sabbath rest. (plain as day!)
Don't follow the same example of disobedience.
While in the wilderness, the Israelites profaned the Sabbath and were disobedient to the covenant, and for this reason, God said, "they will not enter the promised land" (rest).

Ezekiel 20 explains it.
This is the EXAMPLE OF DISOBEDIENCE:

Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them,
that they might know that I [am] YHVH that sanctify them.
But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness:
they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments,
which [if] a man do, he shall even live in them;
and my sabbaths they greatly polluted:
then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
But I wrought for my name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen,
in whose sight I brought them out.
Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness,
that I would not bring them into the land which I had given [them], flowing with milk and honey,
which [is] the glory of all lands;
Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.

Ezekiel 20:12-16 (KJV, MBM)
 

prove-all

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May 16, 2014
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Of course He is not a day of the week. He is our Sabbath rest as Hebrews talks about.


9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

( This is referring to your fleshly efforts to keep the Law
including the Sabbath as outlined in the Old Covenant.)
This is not referring to what you suggest.

A warning-about entering into His rest.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering
into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

-how did they came short?

Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us,
even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them,
because it was not united by (faith) with them that heard.

-they did not have faith.

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest;even as
he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise,
And God rested on the seventh day from all his works;

-notice entering into that rest is connected with the seventh day.

Heb 4:5 and in this place again, They shall not enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto,
and they to whom the good tidings were before preached
failed to enter in because of disobedience,

-God said they will not enter His rest, but they failed because of [disobedience].
about the 7th day Sabbath command.

Heb 4:7 he again defineth a certain day, To-day, saying in David
so long a time afterward (even as hath been said before),
To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts.

Heb 4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken
afterward of another day.

-David said "today" long after Joshua took them into the promised land
so thus proving that there is a rest still to be entered.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works,
as God did from his. Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest,

that no man fall after the same example of [disobedience].

-A rest remains, but notice the issue is do not disobey.

Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies;
Heb 9:4 having a golden altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid
round about with gold, wherein was a golden pot holding the manna,
and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

-the pot of manna was put in the most Holy

Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which Jehovah thy God hath led thee
these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble thee, to prove thee, to know
what was in thy heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or not.
Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna,
which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know

that man doth not live by bread only, but by everything that proceedeth
out of the mouth of Jehovah doth man live.

-God tested them for 40 years to humble them to see what was in their hearts.
that they should live by every word (10 commandments spoken by Gods own mouth)
not by bread alone.

-what did the bread teach?

Exo 16:4 Then said Jehovah unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you;
and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may prove them,
whether they will walk in my law, or not.

Exo 16:5 And it shall come to pass on the sixth day, that they shall prepare that which
they bring in, and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

-and how long did God prove them with the manna?

Exo 16:32 And Moses said, This is the thing which Jehovah hath commanded, Let
an omerful of it be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread
wherewith I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you forth from the land of Egypt.

Exo 16:33 And Moses said unto Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omerful of manna therein,
and lay it up before Jehovah, to be kept throughout your generations.

As Jehovah commanded Moses, so Aaron laid it up before the Testimony, to be kept.
And the children of Israel did eat the manna forty years, until they came to a land inhabited;
they did eat the manna, until they came unto the borders of the land of Canaan.

-40 years. this is the issue being spoken of in Hebrews:

Heb 3:16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they
that came out of Egypt by Moses?

Heb 3:17 And with whom was he displeased forty years?
was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest,
but to them that were disobedient?
Heb 3:19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.

Hebrews 4:4-10 "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise,
And God did rest the seventh day from all his works [Gen. 2:2-3].

And in this [place again],

If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth
that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in
because of unbelief [sound familiar?]: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David,
To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
There remaineth therefore a rest [see below] to the people of God. For he that is entered
into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his."

rest (G4520) sabbatismos
1. a keeping sabbath
2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by
the true worshippers of God and true Christians
from a derivative of G4521

(G4521) sabbaton
1. the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites
were required to abstain from all work
1a. the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week
1b. a single sabbath, sabbath day
2. seven days, a week
of Hebrew origin H7676

(H7676) shabba^th
1. Sabbath
1a. sabbath
1b. day of atonement
1c. sabbath year
1d. week
1e. produce (in sabbath year)
intensive from H7673

(7673) sha^bath
1. to cease, desist, rest
1a. (Qal)
1a-1. to cease
1a-2. to rest, desist (from labour)
1b. (Niphal) to cease
1c. (Hiphil)
1c-1. to cause to cease, put an end to
1c-2. to exterminate, destroy
1c-3. to cause to desist from
1c-4. to remove
1c-5. to cause to fail
2. (Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath
a primitive root


Genesis 2:2-3 "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;
and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God
blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from
all his work which God created and made."

The LORD created the seventh day (Sabbath), blessed and sanctified it
"because that in it he had rested from all his work".

-once God has blessed something, can it be undone?

Numbers 23:19-20 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man,
that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall
he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless:

and he hath blessed; and [I cannot reverse it]."

-Here Balaam tells Balak that the LORD gave him a commandment to bless Israel.
He told Balak that what the LORD has blessed, he cannot reverse it.
Do we think we can reverse the blessing the LORD has placed on something?

1 Chronicles 17:26-27 "And now, LORD, thou art God, and hast promised this goodness
unto thy servant: Now therefore let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may
be before thee for ever: for thou blessest, O LORD, and it shall be blessed for ever."
 
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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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What the 10 do for me is to give me more DETAIL just HOW to love God and neighbour. If it was not for GOD telling me HOW to LOVE i would only have my own opinions to go on....something God tells us not to lean on !
I hear what you're saying, I think the part about "...i would only have my own opinions to go on..." is important.

Christians have the holy spirit to guide them.


if you are
led by the Spirit,
you are not
under the law.

if you are not
led by the Spirit,
you are
under the law.



most 'law' folks respond to me saying that the spirit would never guide us to go against what the written law says.

very true, but it's the spirit's understanding of what the written law says that the spirit won't lead against.
 
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I hear what you're saying, I think the part about "...i would only have my own opinions to go on..." is important.

Christians have the holy spirit to guide them.


if you are
led by the Spirit,
you are not
under the law.

if you are not
led by the Spirit,
you are
under the law.



most 'law' folks respond to me saying that the spirit would never guide us to go against what the written law says.

very true, but it's the spirit's understanding of what the written law says that the spirit won't lead against.
If you are in Christ you are within the law. If you are not in Christ you are outside the law.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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You are not taking into account that the human society has built up 'it's own systems over hundreds and thousands of years IGNORING what God wanted ! consequently we are now in a state/condition that lives ANTI-God and can in no way be turned 'in an instant.....hence God saying we (can only) worship Him in Spirit now. It takes time to make major changes, much much time...just as it took time for man to come to this 'godless age !
It's very possible to live without electricity and cars. You'd want to form your own 'law' community and live in a warm area like Arizona or Mexico.

It would be a way for 'law' folks to put their convictions into practice, like the Amish do.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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I am glad you went there.
There remains a Sabbath rest. (plain as day!)
Don't follow the same example of disobedience.
While in the wilderness, the Israelites profaned the Sabbath and were disobedient to the covenant, and for this reason, God said, "they will not enter the promised land" (rest).

(KJV, MBM)

The "Sabbath rest" as outlined in Hebrews 4 is "resting from our own works" as God did from His. Your law-keeping is a work that you must do. It is not Christ. Take Saturday off if you want to not do anything. It has absolutely nothing to do with Christ Himself and the true Sabbath rest that is only found in Him.

Remember that the Law of which the Sabbath day is a part of - is a mere shadow of the real thing which is Christ Himself.

I keep telling you that no one here is going to fall for this religion of law-keeping and we are not going to desert Christ to go back to the Law. Gal 1:6 - nor are we going to stand for even one hour to this law-keeping - just as Paul said he wouldn't do either SO THAT the truth of the gospel of the grace of Christ would remain with us. Gal 2:5

Paul stood up to these Judaizers that came in to pervert the gospel and we will continue to do it too.

If you are a real Christian - go to the Jewish forums and tell them about their Messiah and that He has already come for them instead of coming on this Christian forum and try to get people to desert Christ for your anti-Christ religion of law-keeping.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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If you are in Christ you are within the law. If you are not in Christ you are outside the law.
exactly! you are in the spirit's understanding of the law!
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Here Paul says that the Law was nailed to the Cross with Jesus.
He is talking about the ten commandments here as in the next verse
he talks about the Sabbath day.

Colossians 2:14
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us,
which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
what was the the certificate of debt?

the handwriting of requirements


"And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us,

which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way,
having nailed it to the cross".

the last chapter of the last book of the Bible teaches:

"Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to
the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:14).

Since it is only "those who do His commandments...{who} have the right
to enter...the city" , the ten commandments could not be "contrary to us."

Actually, it is only those who will not keep the ten commandments that are denied access.
Revelation specifically shows that those who break one of at least four of
the ten commandments will be outside God's city (Revelation 22:15).

the ten commandments were not "nailed to the cross," what was?
Look again at what the Bible actually says (two translations):

14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us,
which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way,
having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NKJV)

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us,
which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way,
having nailed it to the cross.. (Colossians 2:14, NASB)


The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances)
or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the stake, which some call a cross

Which requirements were wiped out?

the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin)
is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay

--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through
the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out
("the handwriting of requirements").

But only the penalty, not the law!

Even some Protestant commentators realize this is so.
Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us
a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14),
which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is
the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one
who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary
to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin.

This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us,
Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition,
Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

In addition, let us look at the Greek term exaleipho translated as "wiped out" in Colossians 2:14:

NT:1813
exaleipho (ex-al-i'-fo); from NT:1537 and NT:218; to smear out, i.e. obliterate (erase tears, figuratively, pardon sin) (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance
with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International
Bible Translators, Inc.)


In other words, exaleipho has to do with wiping out sin. This is also confirmed in Acts 3:19
where Peter also uses the term exaleipho, which is translated as "blotted out" below:

19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

Hence, it is sin and the related penalties that are to be blotted or wiped out.
And the penalties could vary from "being unclean to the evening" (Leviticus 11:24-28)
to making an offering (Leviticus 5:5-6) to being "cut off from his people" (Leviticus 7:27)
to the death penalty (Exodus 31:14).

This is also confirmed elsewhere in the New Testament:

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us
(Galatians 3:13). The curse of the law is related to the penalty. And Jesus paid it.

But what about the law of God? Was the law of God to be wiped out? No:

17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
I did not come to destroy but to fulfill (Matthew 5:17)


While some erroneously think that Jesus, for example, did away with the Ten Commandments
by how He led His life, that most certainly was not the view of the early Christians who
continued to keep them[Paul included]

Furthermore, remember that the Bible clearly teaches that sin is lawlessness:

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. And you know that
He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. (I John 3:4-5).

Notice that Paul wrote:

Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!
How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Romans 6:1-2).

Thus the New Testament makes clear that the law of God continues,
thus it was not nailed to the cross or somehow wiped out.

The Bible, however, also shows that the requirements of the Levitical priesthood
(Hebrews 9:1,6-10) sometimes called the law, which were part of the penalty of sin,
were blotted out.

And why?

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins...
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus
once for all" (Hebrews 10:4,10).

Jesus' one sacrifice was and is sufficient--we do not have to sacrifice animals any more!

Another requirement (which is related) would be the death penalty of sin,
as "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
(Romans 6:23) or other specific ceremonial penalties associated with the Old Testament
statutes (such as making a sin offering, being put outside the camp, or washing).
 
Nov 22, 2015
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This is not referring to what you suggest.

A warning-about entering into His rest.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering
into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

-how did they came short?

Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us,
even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them,
because it was not united by (faith) with them that heard.

-they did not have faith.

Heb 4:3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest;even as
he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:4 For he hath said somewhere of the seventh day on this wise,
And God rested on the seventh day from all his works;

-notice entering into that rest is connected with the seventh day.

Heb 4:5 and in this place again, They shall not enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some should enter thereinto,
and they to whom the good tidings were before preached
failed to enter in because of disobedience,

-God said they will not enter His rest, but they failed because of [disobedience].
about the 7th day Sabbath command.

"
Nonsense....they were disobedient because they didn't believe God's voice when He spoke to them. The very same thing is happening today with "law-keepers". They are disobeying the voice of the Father for the New Covenant.

God's commandments for us in the New Covenant are clearly shown in 1 John 3:23.

Law-keepers are rejecting Christ for their fleshly observance of a day. The Law including the Sabbath is a mere shadow of the real thing - which is Christ Himself.

Law-keepers try to replace Christ's finished work with their own physical observance of the Law and this is a definite anti-Christ belief system.

The Old Covenant is a goner and is obsolete. We are in the New Covenant now based completely on what our Lord Jesus Christ ahs already done for us on the cross and resurrection.