Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[eternally-gratefull]

he pre-incarnate Jesus IS NOT YHWH of the OT! He did, however act on the behalf of YHWH as recorded in such passages as found in Gen.18 and 32, in a few of His many theophanies.

The exclusive name for the Father is YHWH. The capitolized "Lord" is used for both the Father and the Son. Take note of thenames and titles for both the Father and the Son: Ps.110:1; 1 Cor.8:6: 1 Tim.2:5 and Rev.19:16.

The English word "Lord" appears 8012 times in the King James Version. In the Old Testament, the most common Hebrew word translated "Lord" is "YHWH," probably pronounced "Yahweh" and also transliterated as "Jehovah." This is the personal name of the Hebrew God. This word occupies about 3/4 of the occurrences of "Lord" in the King James Version.

Here is the reason it has been rendered "Lord" instead of "Yahweh": In fear of disobeying the commandment to not use Yahweh's name in vain, eventually Jews started reading it as "Adonai" instead (Adonai means "my lord"). When the Old Testament was translated into Greek (the Septuagint), the Greek word "Kurios" (Lord) was used. The Hebrew manuscripts (Masoretic texts) of the Old Testament maintained the word "YHWH," but ascribed to it the pronunciation "Adonai." For these reasons, the modern Bible as Lord.astranslators usually translate "YHWH"
It is no surprise that the main word translated "Lord" in the NT is the Greek word "kurios," which is used to refer to both Yahweh and Jesus Christ.

God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."


Proveerbs 8:22-25:

22“The Lord brought me forth as the first of his works,[SUP]c[/SUP] [SUP]d[/SUP]before his deeds of old;23I was formed long ages ago,at the very beginning, when the world came to be.24When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,when there were no springs overflowing with water;25before the mountains were settled in place,before the hills, I was given birth,

1. Jn.14:28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
2. 
   
   1. Jn.17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
3. "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" Jn.20:17 NIV.

Quasar92

You did not answer my question, all you did was post opinion.

YHWH is the name given to a single member of the godhead, when only one is being mentioned.

The God of Israel (YHWH) was pre-incarnat Jesus, His name is I I Am or YHWH.. Jesus as much as said this when he said beore abraham was, I I AM (the literal interpretation) He claimed then to be the one who spoke to moses in the firey bush.

Now. Can we please stop talking about what you think, And try to study the word?

again, here is the text. only this time I will give it in context so you can not try to distort it.

“I have declared the former things from the beginning;
They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it.
Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Because I knew that you were obstinate,
And your neck was an iron sinew,
And your brow bronze,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even from the beginning I have declared it to you;
Before it came to pass I proclaimed it to you,
Lest you should say, ‘My idol has done them,
And my carved image and my molded image
Have commanded them.’ [SUP]6 [/SUP]“You have heard;
See all this.
And will you not declare it?
I have made you hear new things from this time,
Even hidden things, and you did not know them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They are created now and not from the beginning;
And before this day you have not heard them,
Lest you should say, ‘Of course I knew them.’
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Surely you did not hear,
Surely you did not know;
Surely from long ago your ear was not opened.
For I knew that you would deal very treacherously,
And were called a transgressor from the womb.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“For My name’s sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.

[h=3]God’s Ancient Plan to Redeem Israel[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.


[SUP]14 [/SUP]“All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have[SUP][a][/SUP] sent Me.”


[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

Now please, If this is not the Father, or the spirit. who is this man, Who claims to be the LORD GOD, who was sent by the father and his spirit?

It has to be pre-incarnat Jesus. there is no one left to call it..

 

[Quasar92]

Thats pretty boastfull..

If nothing else. It shows us you are not a person who can be trusted. You think your right no matter what, which means you can not be taught..

Opinion is meaningless. When you have read all the posts from the member that quote was addressed to, with an understanding the questions he asks have already been posted several times before, straight from the Bible, you might realize I am nothing but the messenger who conveys it!


Quasar02

 

[Quasar92]

You did not answer my question, all you did was post opinion.

YHWH is the name given to a single member of the godhead, when only one is being mentioned.

The God of Israel (YHWH) was pre-incarnat Jesus, His name is I I Am or YHWH.. Jesus as much as said this when he said beore abraham was, I I AM (the literal interpretation) He claimed then to be the one who spoke to moses in the firey bush.

Now. Can we please stop talking about what you think, And try to study the word?

again, here is the text. only this time I will give it in context so you can not try to distort it.

“I have declared the former things from the beginning;
They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it.
Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Because I knew that you were obstinate,
And your neck was an iron sinew,
And your brow bronze,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even from the beginning I have declared it to you;
Before it came to pass I proclaimed it to you,
Lest you should say, ‘My idol has done them,
And my carved image and my molded image
Have commanded them.’ [SUP]6 [/SUP]“You have heard;
See all this.
And will you not declare it?
I have made you hear new things from this time,
Even hidden things, and you did not know them.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]They are created now and not from the beginning;
And before this day you have not heard them,
Lest you should say, ‘Of course I knew them.’
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Surely you did not hear,
Surely you did not know;
Surely from long ago your ear was not opened.
For I knew that you would deal very treacherously,
And were called a transgressor from the womb.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“For My name’s sake I will defer My anger,
And for My praise I will restrain it from you,
So that I do not cut you off.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.

God’s Ancient Plan to Redeem Israel

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.


[SUP]14 [/SUP]“All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The Lord loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord God and His Spirit
Have[SUP][a][/SUP] sent Me.”


[SUP]17 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“I am the Lord your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.

Now please, If this is not the Father, or the spirit. who is this man, Who claims to be the LORD GOD, who was sent by the father and his spirit?

It has to be pre-incarnat Jesus. there is no one left to call it..

The following is God's description of Himself, directly from the Scriptures providing the proper exegesis and hermeneutics:

[FONT=&quot]Let me assure you that I am fully convinced that you all love the Lord! By the same token, you can be equally certain that I love Him too. With that having been said, the following Scriptural contradiction of the doctrine of the Trinity is documented in the following, to seek and correct, the false teachings found in it, that were accepted into the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th century A.D.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1. it is necessary to properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as Spirit.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. [As well as the Father, according to the Scriptures, recorded in 6. below].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3. The fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as many other names and titles all quite well known to you all.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4.God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5. It can be clearly seen from the Scriptures, God is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been Scripturally established, what about the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, as well as the identity of His Father ?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. [Please note: See below as to when Jesus did become the Son of God and literally God the Son] The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, who is the Father and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created, in their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both, means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15. [Jesus received His deity from His Father as recorded in 6. below].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth, as the first of YHWH's works, before the world began.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6. When the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary, she conceived in what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, several things happened:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]A. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, as documented in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]B. The term "Father" is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own, as was the case when God, who is the Holy Spirit produced His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, God who is the Holy Spirit and the Father are one and the same person. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in Ps.2:7, repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]C. Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, confirming Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. Jesus said, whoever believes in Him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives/baptizes with, to those who do, and promises eternal life in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.10:27-29, 20:21-22, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God [The Holy Spirit], also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., is also the Father. We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]7. Bringing us to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and the Father being one, that many people fail to comprehend and understand - all pertaining to the spiritual - and have nothing whatever to do with physical aspects in any way. Jesus said He and His Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21-22. In which He meant, as in 17:21-22, that all of us who belong to Him become one, with He and the Father, as He and the Father are one with each other. When you think about that carefully, you realize that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, [And the Father] through belief in Him. Receiving His baptism with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3], and become a born again Christian [Spiritually], through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But we all retain our own physical, individual identities, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Persons![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28 [NIV]. Jesus also stated: "MY FATHER [THE HOLY SPIRIT] LIVES IN ME, DOING HIS WORK," in Jn.14:10. A similar case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, when Satan entered into Judas, whom he then controlled by, who is also spirit, in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both Jesus and Judas retained their own individuality and identity.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]8. The apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9. The Father and the Son are two separate 'personages.' The Spirit of God Fathered His only begotten Son. A father and a son are never only one person. Jesus prayed to the Father incessantly, as in the example of Jn.17:1-26. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, Lk.23:46 and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom.10:9 and a number of other places. Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9 and now sits on the right hand of the Father, Heb.10:12, as well as in other places. All those who participate in the first resurrection, are to be made priests of God and of Jesus, recorded in Rev.20:6. In the new heaven and earth, both the Father and the Son are present in Rev.21:22-23. Neither the terms Holy Spirit or Father are mentioned there, but rather Almighty God, who is the Holy Spirit, together with the Lamb, who is Jesus.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]10. Pertaining to the literal description of God - Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, would He not? By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God in Ps.45:6-7, [and Lord in] Ps.110:1 and "God is with us," in Isa.7:14. After they were fulfilled, they were repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9. In Col.1:15, Jesus is called the image of the invisible God. [Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body [According to Lk.2:6-7; Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5], later changed to an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, as seen in 1 Cor.15:44,52-54, whose pre-incarnate Spirit was created, according to Pr.8:22-25]. Though there is no question as to Jesus deity, the proper description of God is the following: [As documented in 6. above][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]11. ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD/AND LITERALLY, GOD THE SON [As in Isa.7:14, fulfilled in Mt.1:23]. THEREFORE OUR GODHEAD CONSISTS OF THE FATHER, WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRT AND THE SON, WHO IS JESUS CHRIST.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]12. Why is the doctrine of the Trinity in error? Neither Jesus nor His apostles ever taught a Trinity! It cannot be taught nor supported from the Bible. Because God is identified as the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, by Jesus in Jn.4:24, by Paul in Rom.1:10; 2 Cor.3:17-18 and Col.1:15, and John in Jn.1:18 and in 1 Jn.4:12. And that He is Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. With that having been Scripturally established, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is therefore also the Father of Jesus Christ, as found in Mt.1:20 and Lk,1:35. Which means there is one personage consisting of the Holy Spirit, who is also the Father, and the second personage, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, [Literally, God the Son] also referred to as God by the Father, in Ps.45:6-7, Lord in 110:1 and Immanuel which means "God with us," in Isa.7:14. Repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9 when it was fulfilled. Obviously only two personages, not three. That is also the reason why Mt.28:19 can clearly be seen as having been was altered by attempts to make the Holy Spirit and the Father, His title, two persons instead of the one that they are. [And 1 Jn.5:7 which is an insert, that does not appear in any of the early Greek manuscripts]. Jesus would never have made such a statement, when He knew very well, His Father [which is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own], is the Holy Spirit.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]13. mTherefore, The description of God through the doctrine of the Trinity or any of the man made Creeds is quite impossible. Because Jesus and the Father are two separate personages [One by the One Spirit, as all we believers are, as found in Jn.17:21-22 and 1 Cor.12:12-14]. The Father [The Holy Spirit] and the Son [Jesus, whom the Father calls God], are neither co-eternal nor co-equal, as recorded in Pr.8:22-36; Jn.14:28 and Jn.17:3. The three personages described as the Formula for the doctrine of the Trinity, consists of the "Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit;" which is, in fact, identifying the Holy Spirit and the Father as two personages, when they are but one, according to the documented Scriptures addressed above. In addition to the Father and the Son being two entirely separate individuals.


[/FONT]Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

They don't. Why the resistance? Don't you want to be understood?

<SNIP> Show me anyone else here who fails to understand what I have posted beside you.


Quasar92

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The following is God's description of Himself, directly from the Scriptures providing the proper exegesis and hermeneutics:

Let me assure you that I am fully convinced that you all love the Lord! By the same token, you can be equally certain that I love Him too. With that having been said, the following Scriptural contradiction of the doctrine of the Trinity is documented in the following, to seek and correct, the false teachings found in it, that were accepted into the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th century A.D.

1. it is necessary to properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as Spirit.

2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. [As well as the Father, according to the Scriptures, recorded in 6. below].

3. The fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as many other names and titles all quite well known to you all.

4.God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."

5. It can be clearly seen from the Scriptures, God is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been Scripturally established, what about the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, as well as the identity of His Father ?

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning,

before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and
receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3

From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. [Please note: See below as to when Jesus did become the Son of God and literally God the Son] The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, who is the Father and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created, in their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both, means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15. [Jesus received His deity from His Father as recorded in 6. below].

To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth, as the first of YHWH's works, before the world began.

6. When the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary, she conceived in what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, several things happened:

A. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, as documented in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.

B. The term "Father" is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own, as was the case when God, who is the Holy Spirit produced His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, God who is the Holy Spirit and the Father are one and the same person. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in Ps.2:7, repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5.

C. Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, confirming Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. Jesus said, whoever believes in Him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives/baptizes with, to those who do, and promises eternal life in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.10:27-29, 20:21-22, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.

At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God [The Holy Spirit], also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., is also the Father. We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.

7. Bringing us to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and the Father being one, that many people fail to comprehend and understand - all pertaining to the spiritual - and have nothing whatever to do with physical aspects in any way. Jesus said He and His Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21-22. In which He meant, as in 17:21-22, that all of us who belong to Him become one, with He and the Father, as He and the Father are one with each other. When you think about that carefully, you realize that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, [And the Father] through belief in Him. Receiving His baptism with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3], and become a born again Christian [Spiritually], through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But we all retain our own physical, individual identities, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Persons!

Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28 [NIV]. Jesus also stated: "MY FATHER [THE HOLY SPIRIT] LIVES IN ME, DOING HIS WORK," in Jn.14:10. A similar case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, when Satan entered into Judas, whom he then controlled by, who is also spirit, in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both Jesus and Judas retained their own individuality and identity.

8. The apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the Holy Spirit.

9. The Father and the Son are two separate 'personages.' The Spirit of God Fathered His only begotten Son. A father and a son are never only one person. Jesus prayed to the Father incessantly, as in the example of Jn.17:1-26. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, Lk.23:46 and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom.10:9 and a number of other places. Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9 and now sits on the right hand of the Father, Heb.10:12, as well as in other places. All those who participate in the first resurrection, are to be made priests of God and of Jesus, recorded in Rev.20:6. In the new heaven and earth, both the Father and the Son are present in Rev.21:22-23. Neither the terms Holy Spirit or Father are mentioned there, but rather Almighty God, who is the Holy Spirit, together with the Lamb, who is Jesus.

10. Pertaining to the literal description of God - Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, would He not? By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God in Ps.45:6-7, [and Lord in] Ps.110:1 and "God is with us," in Isa.7:14. After they were fulfilled, they were repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9. In Col.1:15, Jesus is called the image of the invisible God. [Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body [According to Lk.2:6-7; Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5], later changed to an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, as seen in 1 Cor.15:44,52-54, whose pre-incarnate Spirit was created, according to Pr.8:22-25]. Though there is no question as to Jesus deity, the proper description of God is the following: [As documented in 6. above]

11. ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD/AND LITERALLY, GOD THE SON [As in Isa.7:14, fulfilled in Mt.1:23]. THEREFORE OUR GODHEAD CONSISTS OF THE FATHER, WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRT AND THE SON, WHO IS JESUS CHRIST.

12. Why is the doctrine of the Trinity in error? Neither Jesus nor His apostles ever taught a Trinity! It cannot be taught nor supported from the Bible. Because God is identified as the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, by Jesus in Jn.4:24, by Paul in Rom.1:10; 2 Cor.3:17-18 and Col.1:15, and John in Jn.1:18 and in 1 Jn.4:12. And that He is Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. With that having been Scripturally established, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is therefore also the Father of Jesus Christ, as found in Mt.1:20 and Lk,1:35. Which means there is one personage consisting of the Holy Spirit, who is also the Father, and the second personage, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, [Literally, God the Son] also referred to as God by the Father, in Ps.45:6-7, Lord in 110:1 and Immanuel which means "God with us," in Isa.7:14. Repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9 when it was fulfilled. Obviously only two personages, not three. That is also the reason why Mt.28:19 can clearly be seen as having been was altered by attempts to make the Holy Spirit and the Father, His title, two persons instead of the one that they are. [And 1 Jn.5:7 which is an insert, that does not appear in any of the early Greek manuscripts]. Jesus would never have made such a statement, when He knew very well, His Father [which is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own], is the Holy Spirit.

13. mTherefore, The description of God through the doctrine of the Trinity or any of the man made Creeds is quite impossible. Because Jesus and the Father are two separate personages [One by the One Spirit, as all we believers are, as found in Jn.17:21-22 and 1 Cor.12:12-14]. The Father [The Holy Spirit] and the Son [Jesus, whom the Father calls God], are neither co-eternal nor co-equal, as recorded in Pr.8:22-36; Jn.14:28 and Jn.17:3. The three personages described as the Formula for the doctrine of the Trinity, consists of the "Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit;" which is, in fact, identifying the Holy Spirit and the Father as two personages, when they are but one, according to the documented Scriptures addressed above. In addition to the Father and the Son being two entirely separate individuals.


Quasar92

I did not ask you for a book of what YOU THINK IS RIGHT, You did not answer my question.


I asked you to explain that passage for me, Is that too hard?

ps. I have studied this for decades, Please do not think you are talking to someone who has not studied what these things mean. You can throw these long drawn out posts all you want, it will not help. They do not answer my literal directed question of who was speaking in Isaiah 48..

I do not want opinion, I want to have a direct discussion with you about certain passages. So please. If I want opinion, I will read a book.. I am here to discuss the word.. Not be told what someone thinks the word means.

 

[FreeNChrist]

<SNIP> Show me anyone else here who fails to understand what I have posted beside you.


Quasar92

Evasive much??

 

[FreeNChrist]

The following is God's description of Himself, directly from the Scriptures providing the proper exegesis and hermeneutics:

Let me assure you that I am fully convinced that you all love the Lord! By the same token, you can be equally certain that I love Him too. With that having been said, the following Scriptural contradiction of the doctrine of the Trinity is documented in the following, to seek and correct, the false teachings found in it, that were accepted into the Roman Catholic Church in the 4th century A.D.

1. it is necessary to properly identify God, whom both Jesus, Paul and John have done, in Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as Spirit.

2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. [As well as the Father, according to the Scriptures, recorded in 6. below].

3. The fact that God is the Holy Spirit - He is also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord, Almighty God - as well as many other names and titles all quite well known to you all.

4.God makes it clear in the OT, He is eternal, that there is no other God but He Himself. "....Before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." Isa.43:10. And in Isa.44:6, "....I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God." See also Isa.45:5: "I am the Lord and there is no other," and in Ex.3:14: "I AM WHO I AM."

5. It can be clearly seen from the Scriptures, God is indeed the Holy Spirit. With that having been Scripturally established, what about the origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, as well as the identity of His Father ?

Beginning in Proverbs 8, pertaining to the attributes of God's Wisdom, I refer specifically to verses 22 through 36, that clearly identify the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ as the WHO, of the Wisdom of God. [From the NIV].

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deed of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning,

before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24]
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world. [Vs 24-26]

I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28]

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30]

rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33]

Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and
receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36]

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3

From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. [Please note: See below as to when Jesus did become the Son of God and literally God the Son] The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, who is the Father and the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ.In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus being created, in their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both, means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15. [Jesus received His deity from His Father as recorded in 6. below].

To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, it is written that He is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, not of everlasting eternity, but rather, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth, as the first of YHWH's works, before the world began.

6. When the Holy Spirit of God overpowered the virgin Mary, she conceived in what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, several things happened:

A. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, as documented in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35.

B. The term "Father" is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own, as was the case when God, who is the Holy Spirit produced His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Therefore, God who is the Holy Spirit and the Father are one and the same person. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in Ps.2:7, repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5.

C. Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, confirming Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. Jesus said, whoever believes in Him is born again, through the Holy Spirit He gives/baptizes with, to those who do, and promises eternal life in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.10:27-29, 20:21-22, 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.

At this point, we have now seen, the Spirit of God [The Holy Spirit], also known as YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, Lord God, God Almighty, etc., is also the Father. We have also seen the Father and the Son are two separate entities who are neither co-eternal nor co-equal. Jesus said the Father is greater than He in Jn.14:28 and greater than all in Jn.10:29.

7. Bringing us to the matter of Jesus remarks about He and the Father being one, that many people fail to comprehend and understand - all pertaining to the spiritual - and have nothing whatever to do with physical aspects in any way. Jesus said He and His Father are one in Jn.10:30 and Jn.17:21-22. In which He meant, as in 17:21-22, that all of us who belong to Him become one, with He and the Father, as He and the Father are one with each other. When you think about that carefully, you realize that we all become a part of the one body of Christ, [And the Father] through belief in Him. Receiving His baptism with the Holy Spirit [Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3], and become a born again Christian [Spiritually], through the one Spirit of God. 1 Cor.12:12-13. But we all retain our own physical, individual identities, in the very same way the Father and the Son do. Two Persons!

Keep in mind, the Spirit of God dwelt within Jesus when He said, "...When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be AND THAT I DO NOTHING ON MY OWN BUT SPEAK JUST WHAT THE FATHER HAS TAUGHT ME." Jn.8:28 [NIV]. Jesus also stated: "MY FATHER [THE HOLY SPIRIT] LIVES IN ME, DOING HIS WORK," in Jn.14:10. A similar case and point can be found in Lk.22:3, when Satan entered into Judas, whom he then controlled by, who is also spirit, in the same way the Spirit of God controlled what Jesus said and did. But both Jesus and Judas retained their own individuality and identity.

8. The apostles in every epistle in the Bible offer greetings to BOTH THE FATHER AND TO JESUS. If they were only one person, it is quite obvious those greetings would all have been different. By the same token, the Holy Spirit is not mentioned in any of those greetings, because the apostles all knew the Father was/is the Holy Spirit.

9. The Father and the Son are two separate 'personages.' The Spirit of God Fathered His only begotten Son. A father and a son are never only one person. Jesus prayed to the Father incessantly, as in the example of Jn.17:1-26. Jesus commended His Spirit to the Father, Lk.23:46 and the Father raised Jesus from the dead, Rom.10:9 and a number of other places. Jesus ascended, in Acts 1:9 and now sits on the right hand of the Father, Heb.10:12, as well as in other places. All those who participate in the first resurrection, are to be made priests of God and of Jesus, recorded in Rev.20:6. In the new heaven and earth, both the Father and the Son are present in Rev.21:22-23. Neither the terms Holy Spirit or Father are mentioned there, but rather Almighty God, who is the Holy Spirit, together with the Lamb, who is Jesus.

10. Pertaining to the literal description of God - Jesus stated in Jn.17:3 that the FATHER IS THE ONLY TRUE GOD. Clearly inferring that He considered Himself God as well. Otherwise, Jesus would undoubtedly have said His FATHER IS THE ONY GOD, would He not? By the same token, the Father prophecied by calling His Son, God in Ps.45:6-7, [and Lord in] Ps.110:1 and "God is with us," in Isa.7:14. After they were fulfilled, they were repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9. In Col.1:15, Jesus is called the image of the invisible God. [Though the Father is Pure Spirit, Jesus had a human/physical body [According to Lk.2:6-7; Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5], later changed to an imperishable, immortal resurrection body, as seen in 1 Cor.15:44,52-54, whose pre-incarnate Spirit was created, according to Pr.8:22-25]. Though there is no question as to Jesus deity, the proper description of God is the following: [As documented in 6. above]

11. ONE TRUE GOD AND JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD/AND LITERALLY, GOD THE SON [As in Isa.7:14, fulfilled in Mt.1:23]. THEREFORE OUR GODHEAD CONSISTS OF THE FATHER, WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRT AND THE SON, WHO IS JESUS CHRIST.

12. Why is the doctrine of the Trinity in error? Neither Jesus nor His apostles ever taught a Trinity! It cannot be taught nor supported from the Bible. Because God is identified as the Holy Spirit, in the Bible, by Jesus in Jn.4:24, by Paul in Rom.1:10; 2 Cor.3:17-18 and Col.1:15, and John in Jn.1:18 and in 1 Jn.4:12. And that He is Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. With that having been Scripturally established, there is no option to the fact the Holy Spirit is therefore also the Father of Jesus Christ, as found in Mt.1:20 and Lk,1:35. Which means there is one personage consisting of the Holy Spirit, who is also the Father, and the second personage, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, [Literally, God the Son] also referred to as God by the Father, in Ps.45:6-7, Lord in 110:1 and Immanuel which means "God with us," in Isa.7:14. Repeated in Mt.1:23, 22:44 and in Heb.1:8-9 when it was fulfilled. Obviously only two personages, not three. That is also the reason why Mt.28:19 can clearly be seen as having been was altered by attempts to make the Holy Spirit and the Father, His title, two persons instead of the one that they are. [And 1 Jn.5:7 which is an insert, that does not appear in any of the early Greek manuscripts]. Jesus would never have made such a statement, when He knew very well, His Father [which is the very same title all men receive after they have produced children of their own], is the Holy Spirit.

13. mTherefore, The description of God through the doctrine of the Trinity or any of the man made Creeds is quite impossible. Because Jesus and the Father are two separate personages [One by the One Spirit, as all we believers are, as found in Jn.17:21-22 and 1 Cor.12:12-14]. The Father [The Holy Spirit] and the Son [Jesus, whom the Father calls God], are neither co-eternal nor co-equal, as recorded in Pr.8:22-36; Jn.14:28 and Jn.17:3. The three personages described as the Formula for the doctrine of the Trinity, consists of the "Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit;" which is, in fact, identifying the Holy Spirit and the Father as two personages, when they are but one, according to the documented Scriptures addressed above. In addition to the Father and the Son being two entirely separate individuals.


Quasar92

Heresy. All of it. Plain and simple.

 

[Quasar92]

Heresy. All of it. Plain and simple.

The heresy is the Trinity, as well as replacement theology and Amillennialism taught by the RCC, in which there are many of you who still harbor the former. Refusing to accept the teachings of who and what God is directly from the Scriptures, you call "heresy>

Let me see you prove the Trinity, neither the Bible, Jesus, nor His disciples ever taught!


Quasar92

 

[FreeNChrist]

The heresy is the Trinity, as well as replacement theology and Amillennialism taught by the RCC, in which there are many of you who still harbor the former. Refusing to accept the teachings of who and what God is directly from the Scriptures, you call "heresy>

Let me see you prove the Trinity, neither the Bible, Jesus, nor His disciples ever taught!


Quasar92

It is the epitome of arrogance to think one has been given "special knowledge" that has escaped the notice of the multitude of real theologians down through the years. Is God divided? For thousands of years the Spirit has confirmed to individual Christians His unique triune nature, as explained by the doctrine of the Trinity. There is no “other” God than the One God of Christianity. And the One God of Christianity IS the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The heresy is the Trinity, as well as replacement theology and Amillennialism taught by the RCC, in which there are many of you who still harbor the former. Refusing to accept the teachings of who and what God is directly from the Scriptures, you call "heresy>

Let me see you prove the Trinity, neither the Bible, Jesus, nor His disciples ever taught!


Quasar92

I agree, replacement theology and Amill is also false.. But that does not mean trinity is wrong.

Can you once again please explain who is talking in Is 48?

for he claims

1. To be the creator.
2. To hold all things in his hands
3. He leads Israel in all ways
4. He was sent by the father and his spirit.

Who is it? if not Jesus himself pre-incarnate..

 

[trofimus]

I agree, replacement theology and Amill is also false..

Oh, no...


Amillenialism or replacement theology are possible views like postmillenialism or premillenialism are possible views.

But these are not important for our salvation.

Triunity is about the character of God, so it is very important to get the right view.

 

[trofimus]

The heresy is the Trinity

What is heretical about these points:

The Son is God.
The Father is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
All these three are distinct personalities.
God is one.

If nothing, this is what Trinity means.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The heresy is the Trinity, as well as replacement theology and Amillennialism taught by the RCC, in which there are many of you who still harbor the former. Refusing to accept the teachings of who and what God is directly from the Scriptures, you call "heresy>

Let me see you prove the Trinity, neither the Bible, Jesus, nor His disciples ever taught!


Quasar92

I forgot you've been indoctrinated with the heretical beliefs of ole Herbert W Armstrong. What a shame. That man is surely feeling the fire of hell as few will.

 

[bluto]

Some denominations believe the trinity and some do not. In my opinion it is up for interpretation. No where in the bible do we Jesus Christ claiming to be God asking to be worshipped. He always defers to the father.

Ok dude, let me put what you just said in perspective. Would you believe Jesus Christ if He actually used the words to the Jews, " I am God?" Or would believe Jesus Christ if He actually told the Jews, "Worship Me?" Do you have any idea why He was not blunt in saying "I am God" or "worship Me?"

We would all think that there is more than one God which of course is not "monotheism." Jesus said certain things to lead us to the conclusion that He is God and maintaining "monotheism." For example, Jesus at John 5:17 said, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." How do the Jews react? Vs18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Or how about John 8:56, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews at vs57 say, "You are not yet fifty years old and have You seen Abraham?" Vs58, "Truly, truly, I say to you before Abraham was born I am." What do the Jews do at vs59? "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him;"

So you see, it's what Jesus said that ticked off the Jews. Jesus also forgave sins and the Jews said, "who can forgive sins but God alone." Jesus said if you don't believe Me, then believe the works I have been doing. I can go on with this dude. You said we don't see Jesus Christ claiming to be God asking to be worshipped.

Ok, why would you not believe the declaration of Thomas at John 20:28 when he said to Jesus Christ, "Your my Lord and my God?" This is the highest form of worship there is coming from Thomas. How did an orthodox Jew come to that conclusion? And why did not Jesus Christ correct Thomas and tell him he is mistaken. Remember I told you we are to worship God and Him alone? Why dude? Where did Jesus defer to the Father here dude? Here's the problem? Like you the Jews simply did not believe Jesus.

And lastly, I want you to notice that I not necessary talking about the trinity. I'm talking about "Who is Jesus Christ?" In fact I will go so far as to say that I don't believe the Trinity is a requirment for salvation. It is the RESULT of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. Please read Romans 8:9-11.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[jaybird88]

The Trinity is wholly a Christian concept. The Christian explanation of God as Trinity is the only correct explanation of God's nature. There is no other. To reject it is to place yourself outside of Christianity. That's just the way it is.

thank you for proving my point lol.

 

[FreeNChrist]

thank you for proving my point lol.

You had a point?

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree, replacement theology and Amill is also false.. But that does not mean trinity is wrong.

Can you once again please explain who is talking in Is 48?

for he claims

1. To be the creator.
2. To hold all things in his hands
3. He leads Israel in all ways
4. He was sent by the father and his spirit.

Who is it? if not Jesus himself pre-incarnate..

Who is Jesus pre-incarnate? Is not Jesus the incarnate God? Scripture calls him God with us...this is Jesus, does this mean a separate part of God or just God in the flesh?

While I see flaws in the trinity doctrine around using three persons to describe God, it seems one is working backwards on making Jesus present in the Old Testament pre-incarnately, did the Hebrews read Isaiah this way? I just wonder about this a little bit.

 

[p_rehbein]

Hmm............can the Holy Trinity be Biblically "disproven"?

 

[Talishi]

Hmm............can the Holy Trinity be Biblically "disproven"?

God is omniscient. Jesus proved he was not omniscient on Mt Olive when he set an upper limit on the timing of the gathering of the elect:

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[UnderGrace]

God is omniscient. Jesus proved he was not omniscient on Mt Olive when he set an upper limit on the timing of the gathering of the elect:

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Really...... and who do you say Jesus is?