JP teaches "self righteousness" and instant "perfectionism"

[InSpiritInTruth]

Thankyou for bringing this reminder. Some just hand out abuse without knowledge,
some claim to see and hand out abuse as well, but are twice blind.

It reminds me of fights in the playground at school.
Someone would insult someone else and blows would start.

Now if all you have are blows and no content, you can bring true wisdom down
to the gutter by starting a fight. The reader then just writes off both parties.

So if you actually are of the people of God, the enemy will always attempt to do
this.

A real weapon is pointing out the behaviour and lies that are done, because it
is this that is the fruit of their beliefs.

In their world it is always emotional manipulation and making people look bad.
It comes really hard on them when they loose the spiritual battle, the truth
battle and the emotional battle. But this is really the point. We are the light
of Christ.

Also if you notice in that thread it is the same ole straw man trying to be propped up "works for salvation" but that is not being preached. We preach ceasing from sin and doing good works, or bearing good fruit by the power of God because of salvation.

And because their own works are evil= still living in ongoing sin, they have to try to misrepresent the true gospel message we bring of being set free from sin by the power of God, and by that same power being able to bring forth fruit unto holiness and righteousness.

That has been their tactic from the beginning because they cannot cease from sin, which is also why they hold to a sin and still be saved doctrine.

 

[PeterJens]

they cannot cease from sin

This has disturbed me, because so many have just said "I sin daily".
Now it is like saying I am a heroin addict, or I love beating people up, or pain makes me feel
better.

But they often do not say what it is or even question it is a serious issue.

I have tried to get people to get specific and work these sins through.
But some make a thought sin, or a feeling, or an intention. And it gets so refined
to feel fear is sin, or to do things to help a situation, is sin.

It is like they want to be lost without hope, because the idea of being righteous
and failing is just too hard to handle. It is like people who want friendship so badly,
when they get it, they break it, so they choose to break it because to have someone
else reject them is just too painful.

If in reality this is just the real spiritual divide, then it is just the fruit of what has
happened in their lives. It would appear this is the true meaning of by their fruits
you can judge them. It would also explain though the arguments change the
spiritual content does not.

 

[Jimbone]

Thankyou for bringing this reminder. Some just hand out abuse without knowledge,
some claim to see and hand out abuse as well, but are twice blind.

It reminds me of fights in the playground at school.
Someone would insult someone else and blows would start.

Now if all you have are blows and no content, you can bring true wisdom down
to the gutter by starting a fight. The reader then just writes off both parties.

So if you actually are of the people of God, the enemy will always attempt to do
this.

A real weapon is pointing out the behaviour and lies that are done, because it
is this that is the fruit of their beliefs.

In their world it is always emotional manipulation and making people look bad.
It comes really hard on them when they loose the spiritual battle, the truth
battle and the emotional battle. But this is really the point. We are the light
of Christ.

I agree whole 100% with what you are saying, but you have been arguing with the same people about the same things for so long. I can see how this may help someone reading the thread, and I agree we need to contend for truth with all we are. I agree with what you are doing, all I am asking is how good does this never ending battle represent Christ to those same people reading through. What about the folks you're debating with, does this method ever help to lead them to truth? Does there not come a time to dust off the shoes? It actually seems this is more habitual than it is revolutionary on both sides. ALL fighting can't be good right? Where is the love in these debates? I see much more of the "I feel sorry you're going to burn", then I do "what part of this are you not understanding". Again I am more guilty than anyone doing this, I'm just trying to look at the situation and grow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This has disturbed me, because so many have just said "I sin daily".

Are you perfect peter? If not, You just judged yourself. Because you admit you still sin.

Does not james mean anything to you? James said if we break the ;east pf the law. We are guilty of it all.. How many sins then does it take to make us guilty of the law Peter? and how small does the sin have to be?

Now it is like saying I am a heroin addict, or I love beating people up, or pain makes me feel
better.

Sounds like a Pharisee to me, Thank God I am not like the heroin addict, or I do not beat people up, Or I love to hurt myself, because it gives me pleasure.

All the same time, I ignore my own sin, Because it is not that bad..

Really? Again, What did James say

But they often do not say what it is or even question it is a serious issue.

Actually we always do. That's not the problem, The problem is we think ALL sin (not just the select few people always want to bring up) is a serious issue..

Do you honestly sit there and think it is ok to scream and yell at murderers and rapists and child molestors and heroin addicts and drunks, And not yell at the proud, The self righteous, the liar, the one who knows to do right, but would rather sit at home instead of serving others?

Well God thinks ALL sin is a serious issue, No matter how small it is..

I have tried to get people to get specific and work these sins through.
But some make a thought sin, or a feeling, or an intention. And it gets so refined
to feel fear is sin, or to do things to help a situation, is sin.

Yep. Lets lower Gods standard, and make the sins I commit or struggle with ok.. As long as we judge the murderers and drug addicts.. (shm)

1. Lets get people saved
2. Then lets Let God work on sin issues,, If God wants to use us, great, But he will do it the way he prescribed it in his word. Not in some chat room in public..

It is like they want to be lost without hope, because the idea of being righteous
and failing is just too hard to handle.

lol, We have hope. And we do not have to water down Gods law to get this hope. Or trust in our selves to get hope. Our faith is in God. Try it some time, You might like it..

It is like people who want friendship so badly,
when they get it, they break it, so they choose to break it because to have someone
else reject them is just too painful.

???? This makes no sense at all.

If in reality this is just the real spiritual divide, then it is just the fruit of what has
happened in their lives. It would appear this is the true meaning of by their fruits
you can judge them. It would also explain though the arguments change the
spiritual content does not.

The spiritual divide is sin, All fall short of Gods standard. why? Because we ALL SIN.

The divide in the church is some do not think their sin stinks. And thinks they can be righteous enough to earn salvation. When God says otherwise.

Grace is an ever day requirement, Because as John said, If we say we have no sin (present tense) we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us.

So to deny Grace, and to try to replace it with works.. Not gonna happen, in this lifetime or next.

 

[Stephen63]

i remember kenneth copeland so many years ago teaching " I am the righteousness od God, in Christ" it isnt a new thing i think its pretty apparent that the church in the days of paul, peter and them were facing the same issues. they had the jews who wanted to force the Law on Christians, and they had the other side of that, which grace then becomes lawless or unconditional, or without law. there are so many warnings in pauls own writings that oppose the idea that a person can do no wrong because of Grace. in ways like " what, shall we go on sinning because we are under grace ( and then he makes a strong declaration) BY NO MEANS! saying, " in no way by any stretch of the imagination are you to think what im writing excuses how you actually live regarding your actions" he repeatedly says things just like that, to guard His own writings from being taken as without law, or you can do no wrong anymore ect. pater warns of it very clearly as many already know. saying " our dear brother pauls words are easily distorted by men to thier own destruction." upon that you have all of the instructions regarding your own actions in pauls letters. you have paul saying himself " I taught both jews and gentiles they must repent and turn to God with faith in Jesus" and " i taught both jew and gentile they should repent and display it with thier deeds"

its the problem of ommital that ruins what paul actually says because he does go back and forth in his wording of things. some want " imputed righteousness" to disregard all of thier present and future actions, but the very scriptures paul is referring to show plainly that abraham was credited to be righteous because He believed God word, YET, from that moment on, abreaham confirmed His belief by obeying everything God had told Him to do. faith and obedience are one, they are like a root, and a tree, Faith in God is the root, Jesus the tree, we the branch, our actions are the fruit.

some believe " im a new creation" the same refuse " created to do good works" " some believe Jesus is the vine, we are the branch, and the fruit is only what Jesus already did,...omitting " every tree that does noit bear good fruit, will be cut down, thrown into the fire." while thos who do produce good fruit, will be pruned so that they produce more fruit. Its about the fruit, WE produce because of the vine in which we remain, its not the fruit He produced beforehand, But His nourishment that enables us to bear good fruit. we are made new, so that we can live in that imputed righteousness, by acting in it. if faith doesnt produce repentance and obedience to Gods Word, the adjustment is in the doctrine we keep.

belief must be right, and the actions will follow.

When the day has come that Kenneth Copeland makes more sense than Joseph Prince, & JP's followers can't see it, they are in bad shape indeed.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The issue here is not about being born again, but those who only "imagine" themselves as being born again. With no spiritual rebirth, there is no true conversion, no overcoming sin, the Devil, or the ways of the world, no purging process of bringing ones thoughts into the obedience of Christ. If one is still sinning then according to the words of God, they are not truly born of God. Pretty simple test to prove oneself.

I sin sometimes but I have received the Spirit and He communes with me often.
Besides, this wars 100% with you saying it's a process, growth in faith, growth in holiness.
I know I've received the Spirit but you say if I sin then I am not truly born of God and that's the test to prove oneself? That they never sin? Sometimes I worry about things I've been told not to worry about. That's sin, because it's an area of mistrust, even if just for a morning. But this doesn't mean I have not been born from above. I KNOW this Spirit in me. I would be lying if I said I don't.

You can't have it both ways. Either it's a growth in holiness OR if I sin I was never born from above...honestly, you have confused me because you have a fracture somewhere in what you say. Unless I've misunderstood you, which has happened before.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I sin sometimes but I have received the Spirit and He communes with me often.
Besides, this wars 100% with you saying it's a process, growth in faith, growth in holiness.
I know I've received the Spirit but you say if I sin then I am not truly born of God and that's the test to prove oneself? That they never sin? Sometimes I worry about things I've been told not to worry about. That's sin, because it's an area of mistrust, even if just for a morning. But this doesn't mean I have not been born from above. I KNOW this Spirit in me. I would be lying if I said I don't.

You can't have it both ways. Either it's a growth in holiness OR if I sin I was never born from above...honestly, you have confused me because you have a fracture somewhere in what you say. Unless I've misunderstood you, which has happened before.

Yes the scriptures say whosoever is born of God sins not. But that does not mean one can never ever sin again, because we are told what to do IF one does sin..... 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

So then we do what we are told to do, and repent of that sin and get back on the strait and narrow path. And for sure a new convert will struggle at first with sin and temptation, but we are given the power to overcome temptation and sin by the Holy Spirit. But you must be willing to fight the good fight and resist the Devil, and he will eventually flee from you. Remember what is written....

1 Corinthians 10:13

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

[Stephen63]

Another attack thread, Lets please let this thread die the death it deserves. This is not a JP discussion forum, It is a bible discussion forum, Lets please try to discuss the word.

to those who may be new, I do not follow JP. I do not even know what he teaches, I have never (except for a few times to check some things where I was directed to something written by JP to get context) So the author's accusation he was attacked by JP cultists is just another lie.


This poster seems to think if you disagree with him, you are a cultist. He is the cultist,, and has his followingn on here, Time to put them on ignore and stop following their attempts to falsly accuse others.

Now you knew before you said it that they won't leave this thread alone. They're the ones making it last. you need to chew them out inst​ead.

 

[AbigailZeke]

I recently posted a thread about the process of fighting the good fight of faith, and how by the power of God's Spirit we can resist temptation and sin, and also bring every thought into the obedience of Christ, and also be purified in our hearts and minds by the same Spirit. But this thread like many of mine was met with great resistance and anger by those who follow a certain "cult" following and the teachings of Joseph Prince. Because I preach against sin and for an obedient walk of faith empowered by God I am usually falsely labeled as a "sinless perfectionist" or preaching D.I.Y. "self righteousness".

But here is the funny part, when looking through some of the false teachings of JP I found this quote of his....



What happened to the process of first being made a babe in Christ by spiritual rebirth, and the ongoing process of sanctification and purification, working toward that perfection by the trans formative power of God's Holy Spirit? This is why so many of his followers are so opposed to the idea of actually being set free from sin and heart purity, because that process has been totally removed in JP's teaching.

Basically JP's false teaching just says you need to have "right thinking" not that there is an actual spiritual transformation and rebirth that set's you free from sin and gives you the empowerment to purify your hearts and minds. His teaching is nothing more than declaring yourself as righteous, when in reality there was never a spiritual rebirth that took place.

So by not experiencing an actual rebirth in Christ that transform ones heart and mind, they just proclaim themselves to be "perfect" and "righteous".

That my friends is the true definition of "self righteousness" when a person declares themselves to be something they truly are not, their evil works prove they are not made righteous in Christ.

For those who want to know the many deceptions of this false teacher, here is the link...Joseph Prince exposed, false teachings of Joseph Prince

Oh my goodness. HOW FALSE THIS IS. Coming from someone who actually goes to NCC.

Tell me, have you even listened to one of his full sermons? Or are these all hear says from other blogs?

 

[Grace777x70]

Oh my goodness. HOW FALSE THIS IS. Coming from someone who actually goes to NCC.

Tell me, have you even listened to one of his full sermons? Or are these all hear says from other blogs?

It is most likely just a sign of spiritual immaturity as Peter shows.

1 Peter 2:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

 

[eph610]

Oh look!!! another thread bashing a public Christian.....

lets stop answering and maybe they will stop creating the threads....

 

[LaurenTM]

Oh look!!! another thread bashing a public Christian.....

lets stop answering and maybe they will stop creating the threads....

I like that method myself

but they get lonely and seek other threads, started by people with good intentions

much like the lone wolf, they keep wanting to join up

and don't get my wrong...I like wolves...4 legged ones anyways...

ps...this is an old thread...someone kick started it because there was not enough venom for a needed fix apparently

 

[Jimbone]

Oh my goodness. HOW FALSE THIS IS. Coming from someone who actually goes to NCC.

Tell me, have you even listened to one of his full sermons? Or are these all hear says from other blogs?

I have and I have to be honest with you, I hear way too much stuff being said from JP that is more a personal interpretation, some may say a twisting, than is what the word says in my personal opinion. I find myself thinking "that's not in the Bible", way too often when I listen to JP at all. To be honest I don't understand how anyone doesn't see the same thing, but I think the whole "don't judge anyone, ever, for any reason what so ever, the WORST thing you can EVER do to a person is say they are wrong", attitude that plagues the world and the church is false. I am told the Spirit leads us to ALL truth, I hear way too much falsehood in JP's teachings to conclude the Spirit is leading him, again my opinion. I personally think there is a better way to deal with this than come start another thread as well, but at the same time I will never "judge" a brother for calling out what they know to be a wolf in a sheep jacket. The biggest hypocrisy of the whole thing is all the folks that are jumping on people for judging JP, are in fact doing the exact same thing they are speaking out against, they are judging the "judges" themselves. Why can't they not judge JP without being judged by you for it?

Can the Word not stand on it's own? Does God need you to protect His Word all of a sudden after all this time? Now I know that goes for both sides, but one side seems to have to "explain" why JP's teachings are biblical a LOT more than the other that can easily demonstrate things he has said that are NOT biblical, then we get 125 lines of how you have to walk said line through it to make in fit. That's just my honest observation, but I HAVE watch full sermons of his, and that's my view.

 

[Grace777x70]

There are actually sincere believers that think people that pray to their Father in tongues is of the devil. Anytime we hear something that goes against what we were taught in our individual church teachings - our minds will "balk" at what is said. It's the nature of the beast.

I have heard things in the past that went against my church teachings too but when I enquired of the Lord - He showed me the truth but I had to be willing to accept what He showed me and to have my mind renewed to the truth - no matter what the consequences would bring.

 

[AbigailZeke]

I have and I have to be honest with you, I hear way too much stuff being said from JP that is more a personal interpretation, some may say a twisting, than is what the word says in my personal opinion. I find myself thinking "that's not in the Bible", way too often when I listen to JP at all. To be honest I don't understand how anyone doesn't see the same thing, but I think the whole "don't judge anyone, ever, for any reason what so ever, the WORST thing you can EVER do to a person is say they are wrong", attitude that plagues the world and the church is false. I am told the Spirit leads us to ALL truth, I hear way too much falsehood in JP's teachings to conclude the Spirit is leading him, again my opinion. I personally think there is a better way to deal with this than come start another thread as well, but at the same time I will never "judge" a brother for calling out what they know to be a wolf in a sheep jacket. The biggest hypocrisy of the whole thing is all the folks that are jumping on people for judging JP, are in fact doing the exact same thing they are speaking out against, they are judging the "judges" themselves. Why can't they not judge JP without being judged by you for it?

Can the Word not stand on it's own? Does God need you to protect His Word all of a sudden after all this time? Now I know that goes for both sides, but one side seems to have to "explain" why JP's teachings are biblical a LOT more than the other that can easily demonstrate things he has said that are NOT biblical, then we get 125 lines of how you have to walk said line through it to make in fit. That's just my honest observation, but I HAVE watch full sermons of his, and that's my view.

Well then, it's a wonder to me why you can't tell when someone is 'falsely' accusing him. And people can judge all they want, but when you know it's not true, the choice is yours to either sit or say something. I just happen to choose to say something.

Maybe you can't see it but to us, the wolf in sheep's clothing are those that insist on self-righteousness. And we very well have the same right to correct what we see wrong as you.

 

[Jimbone]

Well then, it's a wonder to me why you can't tell when someone is 'falsely' accusing him. And people can judge all they want, but when you know it's not true, the choice is yours to either sit or say something. I just happen to choose to say something.

Maybe you can't see it but to us, the wolf in sheep's clothing are those that insist on self-righteousness. And we very well have the same right to correct what we see wrong as you.

Fair enough. You follow and trust JP all you want to give you truth, I'm going to go with what the Bible, God, and the Spirit inside me says. That's all any of us can do, so best wishes to you as well. One last thing I don't understand is how you can judge someone for judging others, that whole line of thought is hypocrisy in itself, I can not hold to anything that breaks down that completely on its face. Have a great day regardless.

 

[AbigailZeke]

Fair enough. You follow and trust JP all you want to give you truth, I'm going to go with what the Bible, God, and the Spirit inside me says. That's all any of us can do, so best wishes to you as well. One last thing I don't understand is how you can judge someone for judging others, that whole line of thought is hypocrisy in itself, I can not hold to anything that breaks down that completely on its face. Have a great day regardless.

Sigh. You're preaching against (me) preaching against (others) preaching against JP. I wish you see the fruitlessness of that argument. And with your reasoning, you qualified everyone (including yourself) to be a hypocrite. But let's not go there cause that is also fruitless.

Don't take offense when people defend their faith like you do. Present your case and we present ours, that's how we have a healthy discourse. And for the record, we follow Jesus and His Word (contrary to your judgement).

 

[Jimbone]

Sigh. You're preaching against (me) preaching against (others) preaching against JP. I wish you see the fruitlessness of that argument. And with your reasoning, you qualified everyone (including yourself) to be a hypocrite. But let's not go there cause that is also fruitless.

Don't take offense when people defend their faith like you do. Present your case and we present ours, that's how we have a healthy discourse. And for the record, we follow Jesus and His Word (contrary to your judgement).

Well I don't really see how I am a hypocrite, I don't believe "we are to never judge or call out falsehood". See if I was to say I believe that and then go on to "judge" someone else's actions, then I would be a hypocrite. I don't believe that and put forth what I have come to believe is truth in a polite, civil, and clear fashion trying to be as respectful as I can, how it the world is that hypocritical of me? I apologize if I was offensive, but I was in no way hypocritical. Please share your point of view so if I was being a hypocrite I can see it and work on it. I want to know where my argument breaks down so I can rethink it. Thanks and I agree arguing does no good, but healthy conversation can work wonders. That's why I like face to face so much better. It's easier to connect in person.

 

[PennEd]

I like when Bruce says " nonsense" to a post from a Grace PLUS WORKS poster.

It kinda slaps us back to the reality of Jesus and His finished work.

 

[ladylynn]

I like when Bruce says " nonsense" to a post from a Grace PLUS WORKS poster.

It kinda slaps us back to the reality of Jesus and His finished work.

Yes., Bruce is pretty good for that isn't he? lol. I also agree with you PennEd on this too. It's really nice to have each other here on these forums to remind us of the good things of the Lord Jesus. Amen!