Alcohol
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Uuummm..... wrong, again. I didn't say that. What I did say was the word "wine" in New & Old Testaments speak of both fermented and unfermented wine, or grape juice.
The facts remain that as important as grape juice was in their diet due to scarcity & bad water, it was a nearly a daily thing to drink grape juice for survival's sake.
The facts remain that as important as grape juice was in their diet due to scarcity & bad water, it was a nearly a daily thing to drink grape juice for survival's sake.
Sorry, I didn't choose any scriptures. So that doesn't give you the right as a self-righteous judge to talk to me that way.
You'd be a much nicer person if you gave all your hatefullness & self-righteousness to the Lord.
You'd be a much nicer person if you gave all your hatefullness & self-righteousness to the Lord.
For the record, I'm one of the nicest guys you could ever meet, but unfortunately your Pharisaic legalism leaves you incapacitated and unable to see or embrace my positive qualities. And that's too bad, but like I said, carry on.
L
haha
I actually thought of that...but decided against posting it...so glad you had no such inhibitions LOL!
Jesus got tired...He slept, He ate, He drank...even water I suppose...and He looked like a man
He was not some diaphanous being that floated around the middle east some 2000 years ago
in fact, He even ate AFTER His resurrection
I really question what it is some people believe...not the Bible apparently, even though they wave it everyone's face
speaking of the Bible, it says God said 'let us create man in our image'
however, it seems folks are not satisfied with that...they believe holiness consists of a big list of thou shalt nots
it's your heart...it's your character...its you made after Christ...and finally, it is your standing in Christ ... not your smeary self righteousness
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Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice
Deut 14:26
God commands people who cannot go to the temple to make sacrifices to
buy animals and drink and consume them in celebration to Him.
Here the Lord is approving of drinking alcoholic drinks.
Deut 14:26
God commands people who cannot go to the temple to make sacrifices to
buy animals and drink and consume them in celebration to Him.
Here the Lord is approving of drinking alcoholic drinks.
I think the difference between healthy alcohol consumption and not is where it goes beyond what is enjoyable or within self-control.
For example, it says if you drink wine in excess, you will see strange sights, and those who do chase after it when they come down, so I think however much is going to make you so drunk you are not conscious or enjoying it, you have drank too much and if you drink for the sake of comfort from not drinking, you drink too often.
For example, it says if you drink wine in excess, you will see strange sights, and those who do chase after it when they come down, so I think however much is going to make you so drunk you are not conscious or enjoying it, you have drank too much and if you drink for the sake of comfort from not drinking, you drink too often.
I want to know what your real beef with alcohol is. Is it that something traumatic happened to you or is it that it's a cover for some shortcoming you possess? Some people like to have something to point a finger at to take the heat off of their own shortcomings. Sort of like standing up in church and saying...we need to pray for so and so cuz they drink to much while they go home and abuse their kids with religious piety.
He is actually a minister?...wow! I never would have guessed that in a million years.
Speaking of Pentecostal churches : I got saved by myself kneeling on the floor by my bed and then went to a Pentecostal church - it was full of legalism ( which of course was masquerading as "holiness".
They had substituted God for "going to church". Substituted Jesus "for the pastor". and substituted the Holy Spirit for the "works that they did in their own self". Church was their real God.
This church was full of judgmental people. The pastor would go on and on about people smoking - meanwhile he was as big as a house. I remember when I was listening to one of his rants and it was meaningless to me because I didn't smoke - I heard the Lord say to my spirit. "What is the difference between those that smoke themselves to death and those that eat themselves to death?"
I was horrified when I heard that but I could see the truth of what was said to me. I kept quiet about what I had heard. I don't think the Lord wanted me to "rebuke the pastor"...lol..I believe it was for "educational purposes only".
Going to this church was the worst thing that happened to me in my Christian walk with the Lord. There were great people there however that loved the Lord but knew nothing about the true gospel of the grace of God. ( Perhaps they do now... )
In saying that - I am sure that there are great Pentecostal churches that are teaching the grace of God now and are not judgmental and are endeavoring to walk in the things of the Lord. I have heard stories from pastors that have begun to see the true gospel of the grace of Christ now.
Speaking of Pentecostal churches : I got saved by myself kneeling on the floor by my bed and then went to a Pentecostal church - it was full of legalism ( which of course was masquerading as "holiness".
They had substituted God for "going to church". Substituted Jesus "for the pastor". and substituted the Holy Spirit for the "works that they did in their own self". Church was their real God.
This church was full of judgmental people. The pastor would go on and on about people smoking - meanwhile he was as big as a house. I remember when I was listening to one of his rants and it was meaningless to me because I didn't smoke - I heard the Lord say to my spirit. "What is the difference between those that smoke themselves to death and those that eat themselves to death?"
I was horrified when I heard that but I could see the truth of what was said to me. I kept quiet about what I had heard. I don't think the Lord wanted me to "rebuke the pastor"...lol..I believe it was for "educational purposes only".
Going to this church was the worst thing that happened to me in my Christian walk with the Lord. There were great people there however that loved the Lord but knew nothing about the true gospel of the grace of God. ( Perhaps they do now...
)In saying that - I am sure that there are great Pentecostal churches that are teaching the grace of God now and are not judgmental and are endeavoring to walk in the things of the Lord. I have heard stories from pastors that have begun to see the true gospel of the grace of Christ now.
M
Interesting thread.
Everyone seems to be coming at it from their own personal angle.
Can I give you a different angle.
Personally I don't drink, although I don't have a problems with other Christians who like
to have a drink with a meal or the occasional drink at a social event etc. I wouldn't
condemn them although I hate to see any adults drinking around children - that really
disturbs me.
Being around people who are drinking also makes me feel uncomfortable
because I don't know, if they know their own limits.
One of my brothers was an alcoholic, he basically started drinking in his teens and never
stopped. I cannot even begin to tell you of all the difficulties this caused for everyone
who knew him and especially family. The arguments, him turning up drink at closing time
shouting and hammering on the door to be let in. The times he didn't make it home
and slept in the gutter somewhere. He also has asthma and I've lost count of the number
of times he had asthma attacks because he was so drunk he forgot his inhalers or lost them.
Once he fell over in the bathroom and smashed a wall mirror seriously harming himself.
Other family members had to force open the bathroom door.
Around 19 years ago he tried to commit suicide along with a drunken girlfriend, but they
were too drunk to do it properly and both lived. After that he tried again by himself sort
of a half hearted attempt. Then on a third occasion he came to our house to say goodbye that
he was going to do it properly this time and he just wanted to say sorry beforehand for all the
trouble.
We called the police who took him away and locked him up in a police cell for his own protection.
They let him out the next day once he had sobered up. He then went AWOL for a week and no one
knew where he was.
He eventually was found alive but then he cut all ties with the family.
Then about 12 years ago he resurfaced and was in a really bad way. He was living in a bedsit
which was in flats full of other alcoholics. No one worked. They use to draw unemployment benefit, drink
it, then the next day a different person would draw their benefit and they would all drink it.
A couple of my other brothers use to visit but even they could barely go over there, he had
dropped to 5 stone, had the DTs, hardly any hair left or teeth, was not eating, any money went on booze,
he was fitting etc. The place was a mess filthy, stinking. But even in that state he refused help of any sort
medical or otherwise.
Then it finally happened he fitted one day and fell into a coma and was taken to hospital.
They didn't hold much hope out for him, his body was shutting down, he had various skeletol
problems, his shoulder was crumbling, his organs failing.
He was in intensive care for 6 weeks in a coma, lots of prayer went up for him and a miracle happened.
He survived and when he eventually came around he no longer wanted to drink.
He moved into a rehab home but even there they didn't it think he would have long to live his organs
were so badly damaged. But praise God he gradually came through and grow stronger. He had
various surgery on different parts of his body and had a new shoulder joint and hip joint. His
teeth were fixed, his feet straightened etc.
He is still in this rehab place as he cannot live independently any more and there is certain damage
that is irreparable,
Most people on this thread have given an opinion about whether THEY should drink or not.
But people do not consider the effect it has on those around them.
As I say, I feel uncomfortable around people who are drinking as I'm not sure how far they will go.
Even one or two drinks loosens lips and changes people even if they do not think it does.
If people want to drink in moderation that's fine, but they also need to be sensative to others
around them and pick and choose where they drink.
Maybe the person sat next to you is an alcoholic and can't stop at just one or two. Are there
children present are you scaring them with your out of character exuberant behaviour. Are you sat
next to an ex alcoholic, or maybe the person next to you was abused my an abusive drunkard etc.
Everyone seems to be coming at it from their own personal angle.
Can I give you a different angle.
Personally I don't drink, although I don't have a problems with other Christians who like
to have a drink with a meal or the occasional drink at a social event etc. I wouldn't
condemn them although I hate to see any adults drinking around children - that really
disturbs me.
Being around people who are drinking also makes me feel uncomfortable
because I don't know, if they know their own limits.
One of my brothers was an alcoholic, he basically started drinking in his teens and never
stopped. I cannot even begin to tell you of all the difficulties this caused for everyone
who knew him and especially family. The arguments, him turning up drink at closing time
shouting and hammering on the door to be let in. The times he didn't make it home
and slept in the gutter somewhere. He also has asthma and I've lost count of the number
of times he had asthma attacks because he was so drunk he forgot his inhalers or lost them.
Once he fell over in the bathroom and smashed a wall mirror seriously harming himself.
Other family members had to force open the bathroom door.
Around 19 years ago he tried to commit suicide along with a drunken girlfriend, but they
were too drunk to do it properly and both lived. After that he tried again by himself sort
of a half hearted attempt. Then on a third occasion he came to our house to say goodbye that
he was going to do it properly this time and he just wanted to say sorry beforehand for all the
trouble.
We called the police who took him away and locked him up in a police cell for his own protection.
They let him out the next day once he had sobered up. He then went AWOL for a week and no one
knew where he was.
He eventually was found alive but then he cut all ties with the family.
Then about 12 years ago he resurfaced and was in a really bad way. He was living in a bedsit
which was in flats full of other alcoholics. No one worked. They use to draw unemployment benefit, drink
it, then the next day a different person would draw their benefit and they would all drink it.
A couple of my other brothers use to visit but even they could barely go over there, he had
dropped to 5 stone, had the DTs, hardly any hair left or teeth, was not eating, any money went on booze,
he was fitting etc. The place was a mess filthy, stinking. But even in that state he refused help of any sort
medical or otherwise.
Then it finally happened he fitted one day and fell into a coma and was taken to hospital.
They didn't hold much hope out for him, his body was shutting down, he had various skeletol
problems, his shoulder was crumbling, his organs failing.
He was in intensive care for 6 weeks in a coma, lots of prayer went up for him and a miracle happened.
He survived and when he eventually came around he no longer wanted to drink.
He moved into a rehab home but even there they didn't it think he would have long to live his organs
were so badly damaged. But praise God he gradually came through and grow stronger. He had
various surgery on different parts of his body and had a new shoulder joint and hip joint. His
teeth were fixed, his feet straightened etc.
He is still in this rehab place as he cannot live independently any more and there is certain damage
that is irreparable,
Most people on this thread have given an opinion about whether THEY should drink or not.
But people do not consider the effect it has on those around them.
As I say, I feel uncomfortable around people who are drinking as I'm not sure how far they will go.
Even one or two drinks loosens lips and changes people even if they do not think it does.
If people want to drink in moderation that's fine, but they also need to be sensative to others
around them and pick and choose where they drink.
Maybe the person sat next to you is an alcoholic and can't stop at just one or two. Are there
children present are you scaring them with your out of character exuberant behaviour. Are you sat
next to an ex alcoholic, or maybe the person next to you was abused my an abusive drunkard etc.
Bump...
I can't believe this thread is still going.
Clearly some people are of the opinion that drinking in moderation, not getting drunk
and sticking to limits which does not affect you, is permissible.
While others disagree with drinking at all and will have their own reasons for that opinion.
I have bumped my thoughts from earlier so people know where I stand and the reasons.
What I don't understand is why people just cannot respect each other's opinion and leave it
at that. There is no right or wrong answer it is down to experience, each individual conscience,
what each person is at peace with.
The first handful of pages on this thread contained great testimonies and were a great
encouragement. But like so many it has turned into a gun slingers brawl.
Sorry if that offends but someone has to tell it like it is and start the peace talks.
1 Corinthians 10:23-33 NLT
[23] You say, "I am allowed to do anything"-but not everything is good for you.
You say, "I am allowed to do anything"-but not everything is beneficial.
[24] Don't be concerned for your own good but for the good of others.
[25] So you may eat any meat that is sold in the marketplace without raising
questions of conscience.
[26] For "the earth is the LORD's, and everything in it."
[27] If someone who isn't a believer asks you home for dinner, accept the invitation
if you want to. Eat whatever is offered to you without raising questions of conscience.
[28] (But suppose someone tells you, "This meat was offered to an idol." Don't eat it,
out of consideration for the conscience of the one who told you.
[29] It might not be a matter of conscience for you, but it is for the other person.)
For why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks?
[30] If I can thank God for the food and enjoy it, why should I be condemned for eating it?
[31] So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.
[32] Don't give offense to Jews or Gentiles or the church of God.
[33] I, too, try to please everyone in everything I do. I don't just do what is best for me;
I do what is best for others so that many may be saved.
It is written to give strong drink in certain instances. Elsewhere it is written that wine is to make merry the heart.
From this I glean that getting a bit tipsy is not a sin, but if anything control us it is evil.
I do not drink anything alchoholic as a rule, unless you consider hving a beer every year or so is being a drunk...
I would never condmen anyone for drinking, nor for being an alcoholic, but I would pray for them. It is never good that anything other than the will of God have control over a person.
I pray we are all controlled by God's will. He is good always, amen.
From this I glean that getting a bit tipsy is not a sin, but if anything control us it is evil.
I do not drink anything alchoholic as a rule, unless you consider hving a beer every year or so is being a drunk...
I would never condmen anyone for drinking, nor for being an alcoholic, but I would pray for them. It is never good that anything other than the will of God have control over a person.
I pray we are all controlled by God's will. He is good always, amen.
He is actually a minister?...wow! I never would have guessed that in a million years.
Speaking of Pentecostal churches : I got saved by myself kneeling on the floor by my bed and then went to a Pentecostal church - it was full of legalism ( which of course was masquerading as "holiness".
They had substituted God for "going to church". Substituted Jesus "for the pastor". and substituted the Holy Spirit for the "works that they did in their own self". Church was their real God.
This church was full of judgmental people. The pastor would go on and on about people smoking - meanwhile he was as big as a house. I remember when I was listening to one of his rants and it was meaningless to me because I didn't smoke - I heard the Lord say to my spirit. "What is the difference between those that smoke themselves to death and those that eat themselves to death?"
I was horrified when I heard that but I could see the truth of what was said to me. I kept quiet about what I had heard. I don't think the Lord wanted me to "rebuke the pastor"...lol..I believe it was for "educational purposes only".
Going to this church was the worst thing that happened to me in my Christian walk with the Lord. There were great people there however that loved the Lord but knew nothing about the true gospel of the grace of God. ( Perhaps they do now... )
In saying that - I am sure that there are great Pentecostal churches that are teaching the grace of God now and are not judgmental and are endeavoring to walk in the things of the Lord. I have heard stories from pastors that have begun to see the true gospel of the grace of Christ now.
Speaking of Pentecostal churches : I got saved by myself kneeling on the floor by my bed and then went to a Pentecostal church - it was full of legalism ( which of course was masquerading as "holiness".
They had substituted God for "going to church". Substituted Jesus "for the pastor". and substituted the Holy Spirit for the "works that they did in their own self". Church was their real God.
This church was full of judgmental people. The pastor would go on and on about people smoking - meanwhile he was as big as a house. I remember when I was listening to one of his rants and it was meaningless to me because I didn't smoke - I heard the Lord say to my spirit. "What is the difference between those that smoke themselves to death and those that eat themselves to death?"
I was horrified when I heard that but I could see the truth of what was said to me. I kept quiet about what I had heard. I don't think the Lord wanted me to "rebuke the pastor"...lol..I believe it was for "educational purposes only".
Going to this church was the worst thing that happened to me in my Christian walk with the Lord. There were great people there however that loved the Lord but knew nothing about the true gospel of the grace of God. ( Perhaps they do now...
)In saying that - I am sure that there are great Pentecostal churches that are teaching the grace of God now and are not judgmental and are endeavoring to walk in the things of the Lord. I have heard stories from pastors that have begun to see the true gospel of the grace of Christ now.
K
He is actually a minister?...wow! I never would have guessed that in a million years.
Speaking of Pentecostal churches : I got saved by myself kneeling on the floor by my bed and then went to a Pentecostal church - it was full of legalism ( which of course was masquerading as "holiness".
They had substituted God for "going to church". Substituted Jesus "for the pastor". and substituted the Holy Spirit for the "works that they did in their own self". Church was their real God.
This church was full of judgmental people. The pastor would go on and on about people smoking - meanwhile he was as big as a house. I remember when I was listening to one of his rants and it was meaningless to me because I didn't smoke - I heard the Lord say to my spirit. "What is the difference between those that smoke themselves to death and those that eat themselves to death?"
I was horrified when I heard that but I could see the truth of what was said to me. I kept quiet about what I had heard. I don't think the Lord wanted me to "rebuke the pastor"...lol..I believe it was for "educational purposes only".
Going to this church was the worst thing that happened to me in my Christian walk with the Lord. There were great people there however that loved the Lord but knew nothing about the true gospel of the grace of God. ( Perhaps they do now... )
In saying that - I am sure that there are great Pentecostal churches that are teaching the grace of God now and are not judgmental and are endeavoring to walk in the things of the Lord. I have heard stories from pastors that have begun to see the true gospel of the grace of Christ now.
Speaking of Pentecostal churches : I got saved by myself kneeling on the floor by my bed and then went to a Pentecostal church - it was full of legalism ( which of course was masquerading as "holiness".
They had substituted God for "going to church". Substituted Jesus "for the pastor". and substituted the Holy Spirit for the "works that they did in their own self". Church was their real God.
This church was full of judgmental people. The pastor would go on and on about people smoking - meanwhile he was as big as a house. I remember when I was listening to one of his rants and it was meaningless to me because I didn't smoke - I heard the Lord say to my spirit. "What is the difference between those that smoke themselves to death and those that eat themselves to death?"
I was horrified when I heard that but I could see the truth of what was said to me. I kept quiet about what I had heard. I don't think the Lord wanted me to "rebuke the pastor"...lol..I believe it was for "educational purposes only".
Going to this church was the worst thing that happened to me in my Christian walk with the Lord. There were great people there however that loved the Lord but knew nothing about the true gospel of the grace of God. ( Perhaps they do now...
)In saying that - I am sure that there are great Pentecostal churches that are teaching the grace of God now and are not judgmental and are endeavoring to walk in the things of the Lord. I have heard stories from pastors that have begun to see the true gospel of the grace of Christ now.
Quote "Speaking of Pentecostal churches : I got saved by myself kneeling on the floor by my bed and then went to a Pentecostal church - it was full of legalism "
Ive sung in every denomination you can name,and a few you dont know about, and saw legalism. It depends on the church,not their "Pentecostalism". Unless you are talking Holiness that tell you you aren't saved unless you speak in tongues.