Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?
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So cs1, since you deem my post interesting is it right? Does the Bible identify 3 and only 3 persons as the one God? Secondly, I never said the Trinity can be comprehended, I said I can prove it by using the Bible. And of course the word trinity is not in the bible, what does that prove? The words omnicient, omnipotent or omnipresent are not in the Bible either but God is all three of those attributes.
Now, what is this business about "pride?" Who says anyone fully knows everything? I mean why are you introducing issues which have no bearing on our discussion here? And btw, I don't need you to lecture me on "humility and reverance." You also said this: " Also "Personification" and Coe-equal attributes are not the same thing as three separate persons even though they can be. Context is also very important as scripture give us the information on this topic."
First of all the persons of the Trinity are not three separate persons, they are three "distinct" persons and as I have already expalined in one of my other post there is a definition difference between the two words. And I agree with you that context is very important and that is the reason I consider the context first on any issue.
Now, your last two paragraphs make no logical sense. Explain to mean what this means or unpack it for me. "If you see that Jesus or the Spirit of Christ has always existed, this does help in apprehending the concept of the Godhead." Tell me why not? Btw, what does the term "Godhead" mean?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Now, what is this business about "pride?" Who says anyone fully knows everything? I mean why are you introducing issues which have no bearing on our discussion here? And btw, I don't need you to lecture me on "humility and reverance." You also said this: " Also "Personification" and Coe-equal attributes are not the same thing as three separate persons even though they can be. Context is also very important as scripture give us the information on this topic."
First of all the persons of the Trinity are not three separate persons, they are three "distinct" persons and as I have already expalined in one of my other post there is a definition difference between the two words. And I agree with you that context is very important and that is the reason I consider the context first on any issue.
Now, your last two paragraphs make no logical sense. Explain to mean what this means or unpack it for me. "If you see that Jesus or the Spirit of Christ has always existed, this does help in apprehending the concept of the Godhead." Tell me why not? Btw, what does the term "Godhead" mean?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
So cs1, since you deem my post interesting is it right? Does the Bible identify 3 and only 3 persons as the one God? Secondly, I never said the Trinity can be comprehended, I said I can prove it by using the Bible. And of course the word trinity is not in the bible, what does that prove? The words omnicient, omnipotent or omnipresent are not in the Bible either but God is all three of those attributes.
Now, what is this business about "pride?" Who says anyone fully knows everything? I mean why are you introducing issues which have no bearing on our discussion here? And btw, I don't need you to lecture me on "humility and reverance." You also said this: " Also "Personification" and Coe-equal attributes are not the same thing as three separate persons even though they can be. Context is also very important as scripture give us the information on this topic."
First of all the persons of the Trinity are not three separate persons, they are three "distinct" persons and as I have already expalined in one of my other post there is a definition difference between the two words. And I agree with you that context is very important and that is the reason I consider the context first on any issue.
Now, your last two paragraphs make no logical sense. Explain to mean what this means or unpack it for me. "If you see that Jesus or the Spirit of Christ has always existed, this does help in apprehending the concept of the Godhead." Tell me why not? Btw, what does the term "Godhead" mean?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Now, what is this business about "pride?" Who says anyone fully knows everything? I mean why are you introducing issues which have no bearing on our discussion here? And btw, I don't need you to lecture me on "humility and reverance." You also said this: " Also "Personification" and Coe-equal attributes are not the same thing as three separate persons even though they can be. Context is also very important as scripture give us the information on this topic."
First of all the persons of the Trinity are not three separate persons, they are three "distinct" persons and as I have already expalined in one of my other post there is a definition difference between the two words. And I agree with you that context is very important and that is the reason I consider the context first on any issue.
Now, your last two paragraphs make no logical sense. Explain to mean what this means or unpack it for me. "If you see that Jesus or the Spirit of Christ has always existed, this does help in apprehending the concept of the Godhead." Tell me why not? Btw, what does the term "Godhead" mean?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I also explained what i meant in context to my statement "Personification" and Coe-equal attributes are not the same thing as three separate persons even though they can be." 2. it is my understanding if the action of a person can be defined would it not bring evidence to the Person doing the action? and if the person doing the action has distinction from others by 1. name. 2. actions. 3. by the word of God . can they not all be working together as one and yet three?now the business about "Pride " if you have been around here long enough as i see you have you surely must have seen maybe some devices topics where some are very fast to hit those over the head when they do not "believe " what they say the bible says. I was not Lecturing you at all on humility and reverence I was just saying what I believe to be biblical true in context to the divine nature of God. sorry you think I was lecturing you that was not my plan. I guess you missed where I said I could be wrong ? that is something not many will say and I wonder why? maybe it's pride .
At any rate I will not address your post anymore out of respect to you .
have a nice day
J
1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
so why is the HS sometimes referred to as an "it"? the Father and Son are never an "it" but always "he".
sin and wisdom are personified in the bible, does this mean they are persons? is there wisdom and sin beings walking around out there somewhere?
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
so why is the HS sometimes referred to as an "it"? the Father and Son are never an "it" but always "he".
sin and wisdom are personified in the bible, does this mean they are persons? is there wisdom and sin beings walking around out there somewhere?
There is no point in discussing Biblical issues with someone who knows it all. Especially at the advanced age of 18. In addition to the fact they think the larger the fonts are, i.e. the louder they can yell, the more effective, their views will be. But rather, it shows how immature they are. You have already had my response, in post #449, with the Scriptural support refuting you! Either prove any part of it is false, or your views are. I have a Masters from Liberty Home Bible Institute, and my professor for the course I mastered in was Dr. Harold Wilmington Quasar92.[/QUOTE] ----------------------------------------------****** You, Quasar92, a Non-Trinitarian, say Jesus's words in Mt.28:19 should be erased. You are putting yourself higher in authority than all the New Testament Greek scholars, the earliest Church Fathers(as Jordan points out) and the Apostle Matthew (and even the Holy Spirit). You also repeatedly ask CC Christians what teaching qualifications they have. So Quasar92 are you saying you have a Masters Degree from Liberty Home Bible Institute ?
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Because jaybird it has to do with the gender of the noun used in different languages. At John 1:2, it says, "He was in the beginning with God," Yes it says "He" but literally it is, "This one." And since you brought up Proverbs 8 and wisdom, you will notice wisdom is personified as a "she" yet we know Jesus Christ is a "He."
Also notice that (as another example) that when describing a boat or ship we would say, "she's" a beauty. Or "it's" a beauty. In most of the Bibles the Holy Spirit is addressed as "He" but the KJB uses "it." Get "it?"
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Also notice that (as another example) that when describing a boat or ship we would say, "she's" a beauty. Or "it's" a beauty. In most of the Bibles the Holy Spirit is addressed as "He" but the KJB uses "it." Get "it?"
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Well quasar, I've proved that the Trinity is taught in the Bible by the following:
1. You said this quasar, "God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy." This does "NOT" means that God the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit. And when you look at John 4:24 the verse is teaching that God is a spiritual being and we are to worship Him in a spiritual way. This verse does not mean that God the Father is the Holy Spirit because the Father is Holy.
1. Quasar92: The Scriptures refute you in the following, bluto. If God is not Spirit, what is He? Jesus, John, Peter, David and Paul say He is. Rationalizing the Scriptures into what you want them to say won't fly!
God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12; Ps.51:11; 106:33; 139:7 and 143:10.
God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.
God, who is the Holy Spirit, according to the Scriptures, is also the Father, His title, as recorded in the following Scriptures:
The Holy Spirit, who is our One and Only OT God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5
Jesus did not become the Son f God/God the Son until it was recrded in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.
2. Secondly, if we were to follow your line of "errant" reasoning I could say, "Jesus Christ identified Himself as the bread of life, does that mean He is a loaf of bread quasar? In your mind you think you have verses to support your position but the truth is your taking those verses out of context to support your wrong teaching. As well, you still have not addressed my post to you except to say "look up your post #blah blah blah." That will not cut it, so here is what I posted and please address the very specific issues I raised.
2. Your meaningless opinion my views are errant is the sum of your unsupported remarks, without a shred of Scriptural proof refuting them. As compared to the Scriptural support I post that refutes you!
3. Ok quasar, I have not forgotten about you. And your right, my argument is a prime case of a syllogism because it cannot be refuted. The Bible does identify the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as God. Not "a gods," not "three gods," and surely not three made up pagan gods, but the ONE GOD. And if you could refute the syllogism you would have done it but instead your asking me "why" questions which I will be happy to address.
3. What you fail to understand, the Scriptures identifying the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God, are using the titles of both the Father and the Son, who, when and how they so chose to identify Him. It has nothing whatever to do with making a triune God from it! The only persons involved, are TWO! YHWH AND YAHSHUA! YHWH, is the Holy Spirit AND father and Jesus is the Son, TWO persons, not THREE, according to the Scriptures! You have already been refuted, bluto, and are arguing from an empty wagon!
4. First of all your question? "Then explain to me why the Bible teaches God is the Holy Spirit and His title is Father? One person!" Your question is an "assumption" because the Bible does not teach the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit. If the Father is the Holy Spirit (and you said He is on the basis that God the Father is Holy) then there would be no need for the Bible to distinguish the Holy Spirit from the Father. One would only see the same continued metaphorical applications being used all the time. God the Father is never identified in the Bible as the person of the Holy Spirit.
4. Baloney! The Scriptures I post that clearly identify who and what God is, is no assumption. The 35 years of study and research I did, has yielded infallible Scriptural truth you nor anyone else is able to deny. It is crystal clear, the Bible teaches God, who is the Holy Spirit, is also the Father. Saying it isn't true, is calling the Scriptures a liar! Prove it by Scripture, not with meaningless opinion, bluto!
5. Here are some examples of what I mean. Genesis 1:2, "And the earth was formless and vlid, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and THE SPIRIT of God was moving over the surface of the waters." Notice the rest of the verses say, "Then God" said or did this or that. Then at Acts 5:3,4, "But Peter said, "Ananias why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?" Why does it not just say, "why did Satan fill your heart to lie to God?" And at vs4, "While it remained unsold did it not remain your own? And after it was sold was it not under your control? You have not lied to men but to God." In other words, the Holy Spirit is idneitifed as God but not as God the Father as you errantly teach.
5. Listen carefully, bluto, it'll be a cold day in hell when you prove anything I have shown you with Scriptural support you will ever prove to be "errant!" Capiche! It's long past time for you to start pying attention to what the Bible teaches and throw the man made cliches away! The above you cited does absolutely nothing whatever to disprve what I have written about the identity of God, as I have previously addressed above. ab
6. Or anothe example! John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him, and make OUR abode with him." So here you have God the Father and God the Son who will make their abode with them and no mention of the Holy Spirit until vs26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."
6. That is correct, as I previously addressed in 3. above, YHWH and Yahshua are two very separate individuals, Father and Son [Titles!]. Review Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35. and Jn.14:10, where Jesus said the Father lives in Him, doing His work. Tell me, nluto, how could the Father be anything other than the Holyb Spirit in that passage alone?
7. mSo quasar, if the Father is the Holy Spirit why would have to send Himself? Why are God the Father and the Holy Spirit distinguished? I can you many examples but hopefully you get the point. Now to your second question? It is true that God the Son and God the Father are two distinct persons. I'm not argueing that point. What I'm telling you is the fact that the Son preexisted His incarnation. Not as "separate" persons as you said but "distinct" persons. There is a difference between the meaning of the two words.
7 The confusion factor is knee deep here! Review Jn.16, bluto and you will learn Jesus is identifying Himself from His Father, the Holy Spirit, by saying the Advocate/Comforter/Helper will not come, unless He goes away. Which identifies the Holy Spirit of God the Father came at Pentecost by Jesus, not by God the Holy Spirit Himself! You can give me all the examples you like, and you will neither prove what I what psted to be false, nor, that there is any such thing as the Trinity!
8. You yourself admit that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God the Son but the rub comes from you saying "Jesus became human at His incarnation." How does that preclude Jesus Christ who is God from preexisting His incarnation. What if I was to prove to you that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is the preincarnate Jesus Christ? But for now let me address your last point. "All men who produce children of their own, have the title of father! With that having been said, why don't Trinitarians make the claim that Jesus and the Son are TWO persons instead of just one, as they so they do Almighty God, the Holy Spirit, and the Father?"
8. The above is more examples of your failure to read and understand my article in #341. Where the above rhetorical confusion is all thoroughly explained. The origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus is documented from Solomon, in Pr.8:22-36, where YHWH brought him forth, the first of His works, the FIRSTBORN over all creation, as recorded in Col.1:15. YHWH did not create another God, as the OT Scriptures I* have addressed above attest to. The pre-incarnate Jesus did not become the Son of God/God the Son until recorded in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35!
FYI, Jesus was NEVER the angel of God! There are many theophanies of the pre-incarnate Jesus in the OT, such as in Gen.18 and 32, as well as in Jos.5:13-15, Dan.3:24-25, 12:7, Jn.1:1-3, 17:3, Col.1:18 and Heb.1:2.
9. I could not agree with you more quasar. It is a universal law that all sons bear the same nature and their father. Since the Father of Jelsus Christ is God the Father then Jesus' nature is that of Deity. As well, since Mary is the mother of Jesus He has a second nature which is "human being." This is one of the reasons Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God." Now, you cannot split up "natures" because Jesus Christ is one person, not two. In fact, He is the only one that has two natures as I explained.
9. Which is more argument from nowhere! I have made no remarks pertaining to Jesus nature, first of all, but rather, that He became the human Jesus in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35 asw well as in Jn.1:14. From which there is no option!
10. At John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God." That word "with" means that the Word/Logos is "with" somebody else other than Himself and He is identified as God. At verse 14 that same person who is the
Word/Jesus Christ became flesh/human. One persons with two natures. This is not hard to understand because this is what the Bible teaches.
10. More pointless rhetoric! That is what I have covered that issue many times over! And yes, that is a Scriptural fact, not only repeated above but in post #341 as well!
11. How in the world do you explain or reconcile that the Bible makes it perfectly clear that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other? And if the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit as you say then there would be no need to distinguish Him from the Holy Spirit as the Bible does in numerous places.
11. Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible, bluto? It is clear your motivation is to support what you think the Bible teaches, with no regard whatever for what it does teach. You also ignore the fact that what I have written and posted comes from my experience of 45 years as a Trinitarian together with 35 more in research and study in what and how God is described as in the Bible. This thread is far from my first exposure of my views to died in the wool Trinitarians! The rebuttal of your views has been address previously, above!
I2. I've also proved it in my very first post that started this whole thread. You have not addressed the content of what I presented, instead you keep telling everybody to read what you have posted as if that makes what you say "so." I also gave you a logical syllogism in which you said is wrong, even though you cannot prove it to be wrong. In short, instead of at least considering the possibility you may be wrong your resting on the laurels of your age and discounting all the scholars you posted, including your mentor and others including people on this forum who have confronted you and were all Trinitarians, for a reason. And it has nothing to do with the traditions of men, councils or the RCC.
12. You have proven what you believe, bluto, not what the Scriptural interpretation teaches, of the description of God, and origin of Jesus! No matter how hard or how long you argue, you cannot prove the Trinity by the Bible, but rather, only from the rhetoric of man. Give it up and make a real effort to seek the Biblical truth!
Quasar92
1. You said this quasar, "God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy." This does "NOT" means that God the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit. And when you look at John 4:24 the verse is teaching that God is a spiritual being and we are to worship Him in a spiritual way. This verse does not mean that God the Father is the Holy Spirit because the Father is Holy.
1. Quasar92: The Scriptures refute you in the following, bluto. If God is not Spirit, what is He? Jesus, John, Peter, David and Paul say He is. Rationalizing the Scriptures into what you want them to say won't fly!
God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12; Ps.51:11; 106:33; 139:7 and 143:10.
God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.
God, who is the Holy Spirit, according to the Scriptures, is also the Father, His title, as recorded in the following Scriptures:
The Holy Spirit, who is our One and Only OT God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5
Jesus did not become the Son f God/God the Son until it was recrded in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35.
2. Secondly, if we were to follow your line of "errant" reasoning I could say, "Jesus Christ identified Himself as the bread of life, does that mean He is a loaf of bread quasar? In your mind you think you have verses to support your position but the truth is your taking those verses out of context to support your wrong teaching. As well, you still have not addressed my post to you except to say "look up your post #blah blah blah." That will not cut it, so here is what I posted and please address the very specific issues I raised.
2. Your meaningless opinion my views are errant is the sum of your unsupported remarks, without a shred of Scriptural proof refuting them. As compared to the Scriptural support I post that refutes you!
3. Ok quasar, I have not forgotten about you. And your right, my argument is a prime case of a syllogism because it cannot be refuted. The Bible does identify the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as God. Not "a gods," not "three gods," and surely not three made up pagan gods, but the ONE GOD. And if you could refute the syllogism you would have done it but instead your asking me "why" questions which I will be happy to address.
3. What you fail to understand, the Scriptures identifying the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God, are using the titles of both the Father and the Son, who, when and how they so chose to identify Him. It has nothing whatever to do with making a triune God from it! The only persons involved, are TWO! YHWH AND YAHSHUA! YHWH, is the Holy Spirit AND father and Jesus is the Son, TWO persons, not THREE, according to the Scriptures! You have already been refuted, bluto, and are arguing from an empty wagon!
4. First of all your question? "Then explain to me why the Bible teaches God is the Holy Spirit and His title is Father? One person!" Your question is an "assumption" because the Bible does not teach the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit. If the Father is the Holy Spirit (and you said He is on the basis that God the Father is Holy) then there would be no need for the Bible to distinguish the Holy Spirit from the Father. One would only see the same continued metaphorical applications being used all the time. God the Father is never identified in the Bible as the person of the Holy Spirit.
4. Baloney! The Scriptures I post that clearly identify who and what God is, is no assumption. The 35 years of study and research I did, has yielded infallible Scriptural truth you nor anyone else is able to deny. It is crystal clear, the Bible teaches God, who is the Holy Spirit, is also the Father. Saying it isn't true, is calling the Scriptures a liar! Prove it by Scripture, not with meaningless opinion, bluto!
5. Here are some examples of what I mean. Genesis 1:2, "And the earth was formless and vlid, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and THE SPIRIT of God was moving over the surface of the waters." Notice the rest of the verses say, "Then God" said or did this or that. Then at Acts 5:3,4, "But Peter said, "Ananias why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?" Why does it not just say, "why did Satan fill your heart to lie to God?" And at vs4, "While it remained unsold did it not remain your own? And after it was sold was it not under your control? You have not lied to men but to God." In other words, the Holy Spirit is idneitifed as God but not as God the Father as you errantly teach.
5. Listen carefully, bluto, it'll be a cold day in hell when you prove anything I have shown you with Scriptural support you will ever prove to be "errant!" Capiche! It's long past time for you to start pying attention to what the Bible teaches and throw the man made cliches away! The above you cited does absolutely nothing whatever to disprve what I have written about the identity of God, as I have previously addressed above. ab
6. Or anothe example! John 14:23, "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and WE will come to him, and make OUR abode with him." So here you have God the Father and God the Son who will make their abode with them and no mention of the Holy Spirit until vs26, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."
6. That is correct, as I previously addressed in 3. above, YHWH and Yahshua are two very separate individuals, Father and Son [Titles!]. Review Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35. and Jn.14:10, where Jesus said the Father lives in Him, doing His work. Tell me, nluto, how could the Father be anything other than the Holyb Spirit in that passage alone?
7. mSo quasar, if the Father is the Holy Spirit why would have to send Himself? Why are God the Father and the Holy Spirit distinguished? I can you many examples but hopefully you get the point. Now to your second question? It is true that God the Son and God the Father are two distinct persons. I'm not argueing that point. What I'm telling you is the fact that the Son preexisted His incarnation. Not as "separate" persons as you said but "distinct" persons. There is a difference between the meaning of the two words.
7 The confusion factor is knee deep here! Review Jn.16, bluto and you will learn Jesus is identifying Himself from His Father, the Holy Spirit, by saying the Advocate/Comforter/Helper will not come, unless He goes away. Which identifies the Holy Spirit of God the Father came at Pentecost by Jesus, not by God the Holy Spirit Himself! You can give me all the examples you like, and you will neither prove what I what psted to be false, nor, that there is any such thing as the Trinity!
8. You yourself admit that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God the Son but the rub comes from you saying "Jesus became human at His incarnation." How does that preclude Jesus Christ who is God from preexisting His incarnation. What if I was to prove to you that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is the preincarnate Jesus Christ? But for now let me address your last point. "All men who produce children of their own, have the title of father! With that having been said, why don't Trinitarians make the claim that Jesus and the Son are TWO persons instead of just one, as they so they do Almighty God, the Holy Spirit, and the Father?"
8. The above is more examples of your failure to read and understand my article in #341. Where the above rhetorical confusion is all thoroughly explained. The origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus is documented from Solomon, in Pr.8:22-36, where YHWH brought him forth, the first of His works, the FIRSTBORN over all creation, as recorded in Col.1:15. YHWH did not create another God, as the OT Scriptures I* have addressed above attest to. The pre-incarnate Jesus did not become the Son of God/God the Son until recorded in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35!
FYI, Jesus was NEVER the angel of God! There are many theophanies of the pre-incarnate Jesus in the OT, such as in Gen.18 and 32, as well as in Jos.5:13-15, Dan.3:24-25, 12:7, Jn.1:1-3, 17:3, Col.1:18 and Heb.1:2.
9. I could not agree with you more quasar. It is a universal law that all sons bear the same nature and their father. Since the Father of Jelsus Christ is God the Father then Jesus' nature is that of Deity. As well, since Mary is the mother of Jesus He has a second nature which is "human being." This is one of the reasons Jesus Christ referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God." Now, you cannot split up "natures" because Jesus Christ is one person, not two. In fact, He is the only one that has two natures as I explained.
9. Which is more argument from nowhere! I have made no remarks pertaining to Jesus nature, first of all, but rather, that He became the human Jesus in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35 asw well as in Jn.1:14. From which there is no option!
10. At John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God." That word "with" means that the Word/Logos is "with" somebody else other than Himself and He is identified as God. At verse 14 that same person who is the
Word/Jesus Christ became flesh/human. One persons with two natures. This is not hard to understand because this is what the Bible teaches.
10. More pointless rhetoric! That is what I have covered that issue many times over! And yes, that is a Scriptural fact, not only repeated above but in post #341 as well!
11. How in the world do you explain or reconcile that the Bible makes it perfectly clear that God the Father and the Holy Spirit are distinct from each other? And if the Father is the person of the Holy Spirit as you say then there would be no need to distinguish Him from the Holy Spirit as the Bible does in numerous places.
11. Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible, bluto? It is clear your motivation is to support what you think the Bible teaches, with no regard whatever for what it does teach. You also ignore the fact that what I have written and posted comes from my experience of 45 years as a Trinitarian together with 35 more in research and study in what and how God is described as in the Bible. This thread is far from my first exposure of my views to died in the wool Trinitarians! The rebuttal of your views has been address previously, above!
I2. I've also proved it in my very first post that started this whole thread. You have not addressed the content of what I presented, instead you keep telling everybody to read what you have posted as if that makes what you say "so." I also gave you a logical syllogism in which you said is wrong, even though you cannot prove it to be wrong. In short, instead of at least considering the possibility you may be wrong your resting on the laurels of your age and discounting all the scholars you posted, including your mentor and others including people on this forum who have confronted you and were all Trinitarians, for a reason. And it has nothing to do with the traditions of men, councils or the RCC.
12. You have proven what you believe, bluto, not what the Scriptural interpretation teaches, of the description of God, and origin of Jesus! No matter how hard or how long you argue, you cannot prove the Trinity by the Bible, but rather, only from the rhetoric of man. Give it up and make a real effort to seek the Biblical truth!
Quasar92
----------------------------------------------****** You, Quasar92, a Non-Trinitarian, say Jesus's words in Mt.28:19 should be erased. You are putting yourself higher in authority than all the New Testament Greek scholars, the earliest Church Fathers(as Jordan points out) and the Apostle Matthew (and even the Holy Spirit). You also repeatedly ask CC Christians what teaching qualifications they have. So Quasar92 are you saying you have a Masters Degree from Liberty Home Bible Institute ?[/QUOTE]
Listen carefully! When you have something to address that I have written, then put it in proper quotes, not what you want to say what I said!. I said the Mt.28:19 was an insert of the triune assumption, rather than baptism by Jesus as found in the rest of the Bible.
Watch your accusations you are posting about me, as you are bearing false witness!
Quasar02
Listen carefully! When you have something to address that I have written, then put it in proper quotes, not what you want to say what I said!. I said the Mt.28:19 was an insert of the triune assumption, rather than baptism by Jesus as found in the rest of the Bible.
Watch your accusations you are posting about me, as you are bearing false witness!
Quasar02
Originally Posted by valiant
John 14.16-17, 26; 15.26. That makes four witnesses. So your case is blown away. Give me an example in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit is seen merely as an aspect the Father.
Prayer is directed to the Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit. The three members of the triune God are all involved in prayer. Each persona has His part to play.
Prayer is directed to the Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Holy Spirit. The three members of the triune God are all involved in prayer. Each persona has His part to play.
By the way, who said that the Spirit of Christ was the Holy Spirit? There are three spirits in the Godhead, the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of the Son and the Holy Spirit. As in all aspects of the Godhead they work as ONE.
incidentally nowhere is it said that baptism was otherwise. 'baptism in the Name of Jesus' is a shorthand for the full Name. NOWHERE DOES it actually say they baptised in ONLY the Name of Jesus.
The early church later baptised in the name of the Triune God.eg the didache. It is merely abbreviated in Scripture.,
The early church later baptised in the name of the Triune God.eg the didache. It is merely abbreviated in Scripture.,
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Good grief quasar, your not paying attention. You said this: "If God is not Spirit, what is He? Jesus, John, Peter, David and Paul say He is. Rationalizing the Scriptures into what you want them to say won't fly!" I said very clearly that God the Father is not the "PERSON" of the Holy Spirit. According to John 4:24 God is a spiritual being, period. I have been trying to explain to you that each of the persons that make up the ONE God have their own identity. The Father is not the person of the Holy Spirit but is a distinct person.
I am not giving you meangless opionions. I'm giving you Biblical facts from the Bible itself that there are three and only three persons identified as the One God in the Bible. That was the purpose of my syllogism which your unabel to refute so what do you do? Say I'm giving my opinion.
Now, you mentioned "titles." At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace. These are more than mere titles in that the Son who will be given who is Jesus Christ has all the characteristics and attributes of God. And notice the verse says, "a son will be given" as opposed to a son will be created and show up when He was born. The point being is the Son preexisted His incarantion as a man and was in reality the Father's Son.
And this statement of yours is a real winner? " Listen carefully, bluto, it'll be a cold day in hell when you prove anything I have shown you with Scriptural support you will ever prove to be "errant!" Capiche! It's long past time for you to start pying attention to what the Bible teaches and throw the man made cliches away! The above you cited does absolutely nothing whatever to disprve what I have written about the identity of God, as I have previously addressed above. ab"
First of all it shows your "NOT" only teachable but your close minded. I did not give you any man made "cliches," I gave valid Biblical arguments. And btw, you don't need to "Capiche" me since I happen to be Sicillan and it is you that doesn't understand. So you keep clinging to your errant theology and all the years you have studied the Bible even though everyone of the teachers and scholars you quoted are Trinitarians. Tell me quasar, are they all wrong and your the only one who is right? Please give me some names of others that believe like you that the person of the Holy Spirit is really God the Father?
And let me say one more thing regarding one's qualfications regarding the Bible. I attended Biola University is La Mirada California many years ago. I attended for three years and had to drop out due to other circumstances. I learned alot but the real learning came from the field of witnessing to hundreds of JW's, Mormons, Word of Fath heretical teachers and anybody else in the cults or occult. My mentor was Dr.Walter Martin, perhaps you've heared of him? I've also leaned like the Apostle Paul stated "not to despise someones youth." Which means I "DON'T" know everything and I'm open minded enough to change my views on issues. Finally, I to am a Veteran by way of the Vietnam war. I arrived in country January of 1968 and two weeks later the Tet offensive started. In short, war is just about the most horrible thing I can imangine. Having said that there is one more thing that is even more horrible! It is four of the most lethal words in the Bible, "I never knew you." Matthew 7:23. And no, I'm not saying your lost quasar.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I am not giving you meangless opionions. I'm giving you Biblical facts from the Bible itself that there are three and only three persons identified as the One God in the Bible. That was the purpose of my syllogism which your unabel to refute so what do you do? Say I'm giving my opinion.
Now, you mentioned "titles." At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace. These are more than mere titles in that the Son who will be given who is Jesus Christ has all the characteristics and attributes of God. And notice the verse says, "a son will be given" as opposed to a son will be created and show up when He was born. The point being is the Son preexisted His incarantion as a man and was in reality the Father's Son.
And this statement of yours is a real winner?
" Listen carefully, bluto, it'll be a cold day in hell when you prove anything I have shown you with Scriptural support you will ever prove to be "errant!" Capiche! It's long past time for you to start pying attention to what the Bible teaches and throw the man made cliches away! The above you cited does absolutely nothing whatever to disprve what I have written about the identity of God, as I have previously addressed above. ab"First of all it shows your "NOT" only teachable but your close minded. I did not give you any man made "cliches," I gave valid Biblical arguments. And btw, you don't need to "Capiche" me since I happen to be Sicillan and it is you that doesn't understand. So you keep clinging to your errant theology and all the years you have studied the Bible even though everyone of the teachers and scholars you quoted are Trinitarians. Tell me quasar, are they all wrong and your the only one who is right? Please give me some names of others that believe like you that the person of the Holy Spirit is really God the Father?
And let me say one more thing regarding one's qualfications regarding the Bible. I attended Biola University is La Mirada California many years ago. I attended for three years and had to drop out due to other circumstances. I learned alot but the real learning came from the field of witnessing to hundreds of JW's, Mormons, Word of Fath heretical teachers and anybody else in the cults or occult. My mentor was Dr.Walter Martin, perhaps you've heared of him? I've also leaned like the Apostle Paul stated "not to despise someones youth." Which means I "DON'T" know everything and I'm open minded enough to change my views on issues. Finally, I to am a Veteran by way of the Vietnam war. I arrived in country January of 1968 and two weeks later the Tet offensive started. In short, war is just about the most horrible thing I can imangine. Having said that there is one more thing that is even more horrible! It is four of the most lethal words in the Bible, "I never knew you." Matthew 7:23. And no, I'm not saying your lost quasar.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Listen carefully! When you have something to address that I have written, then put it in proper quotes, not what you want to say what I said!. I said the Mt.28:19 was an insert of the triune assumption, rather than baptism by Jesus as found in the rest of the Bible. Watch your accusations you are posting about me, as you are bearing false witness! Quasar02[/QUOTE]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quasar92, You have asked your fellow CC members what teaching qualifications they have. Are you saying you have a Masters Degree?