Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[valiant]

He is the Son of God – He is 'His Son' --- He is 'MY Son' (Matt 3.17; 17.5; 21.27) – He is 'The Son' (John 5.19 and often) – He is the only Son of the God (John 1.18; 3.16) – He is the only Son of the Father (John 1.14) --- He is the First and the Last, the Living One (Rev 1.17) --- He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Rev 22.13), --- He is the Holy One (John 6.69; Acts 13.35) – He is the LORD (YHWH) --- He is the Lord of Glory (1 Cor 2.8) – He is our great God and Saviour (Tit 2.13) --- He is the image of the invisible God (Col 1.15) – He is the outshining of His glory and the express image of His substance (Heb 1.3) --- In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form (Col 2.9).


He is omnipresent (Heb 1.3; Matt 18.20; 28.29), He is omniscient (Matt 11.27), He is judge of the living and the dead (2 Tim 4.1), He will bring about the resurrection (John 5.25-29), Men call on His Name (1 Cor 1.1-2; Acts 7.59).


He can open the eyes of the blind.

 

[Placid]

Hi Bluto,
Quote from Post 909:

Please read John 5:17,18, John 8:56-58, John 10:30-37, John 19:7, and read the trial transcript at Matthew 26:59-67. I want you to notice what is the common theme in all these verses? Got to run!
　
Response: --- Let's examine the verses starting with John 5:
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
--- From the time Jesus came He was called the "Son of God' and said God was His Father. --- So here the Jews try to accuse Him because He said 'God was His Father.'
They said because "He made Himself 'equal' with God."
We know that Jesus was born on earth without a human father, and 'He always did what pleased the Father.' --- But to do the work that the Father gave Him to do was simple obedience. --- It shows the subordination to the Father, does it not?
　
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
　
Response: --- It says in John 1:1 that there were two who were called God, --- Almighty God (Theov), and the Word called God (Theos).
--- All things were made through Him (The Word). --- And the Word could come to His own creation as it said in John 1:
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
--- So the Word could indwell Jesus and speak through Him, could He not?
　
We have to go back a little further to answer this. To Exodus 3:
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn."
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" --- And he said, "Here I am."
5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground."
6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
　
--- Since Almighty God could never come to earth (His very approaching Presence would burn us to a crisp), --- then this appearance had to be the Word, who could not be seen, but spoke from the midst of the bush and said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob."
　
10 Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt."
11 But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?"
12 So He said, "I (the Word) will certainly be with you. And this shall be a sign to you that I have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain."
13 Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?"
14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"

So we have the Word saying "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," and "I AM WHO I AM." or "I AM."
　
When it comes to John 8, the Pharisees were trying to discredit Jesus, so the Word was speaking through Him in John 8:
13 The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true."
14 Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.
21 Then Jesus said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come."
22 So the Jews said, "Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?"
23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
--- Only the Word or the Holy Spirit could speak prophecies through Jesus, and say, "You are from beneath; I am from above."
This was true, the Word was from heaven, and they were from the earth, beneath, --- Even Jesus was from beneath.

--- So the conversation continues until the Word says through Jesus, this statement:
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
--- When did Abraham first meet the Lord? --- I Genesis 18:
1 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
10 And He said, "I will certainly return to you according to the time of life, and behold, Sarah your wife shall have a son."
17 And the Lord said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing,
18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the Lord, to do righteousness and justice, that the Lord may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him."
　
So the Lord had Known Abraham when Abraham was living and promised his son Isaac. --- The response was:
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
--- I will answer the others verses later.
　

 

[bluto]

Well placid, I really appreciate you taking the time to address the verses I provided. The thing I want you to notice is of vital importance is this? Whether or not the Jews are correctly or incorrectly understanding Jesus is not the issue. The issue is what was it that Jesus said that caused them to say He was claiming to be God that so upset the Jews to the point of accusing Him of blasphemy and wanting to kill Him? Please think about the question placid?

Starting at John 5:17,18 Jesus is claiming that God is His own Father. Jesus does not mean this in the sense of the Jews also claiming they are the sons of God as well. Also notice the language of Jesus at Luke 2:49, "And he said to them/His parents, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know I had to be in MY FATHER'S house." This was when Jesus was just a boy and He calls God, "My Father."

Now to John 8:58, please notice the words of Jesus? "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." What is the reaction of the Jews? Vs59, "Therefore, they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple." In other words, Jesus is saying He existed even before Abraham was born. Now, I notice placid that you brought up John 1:1 but before I address that issue I would like you to read John 1:15 and what John the Baptist says, "John bore witness of Him/Jesus, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, FOR HE EXISTED BEFORE ME." John the Baptist was born six months earlier that Jesus Christ.

Now for John 1:1 and here is what you said, "Response: --- It says in John 1:1 that there were two who were called God, --- Almighty God (Theov), and the Word called God (Theos)." Your adding to God's word placid, the verse does not use the word, "Almighty." As a side note I hope you have not been talking to quasar? He says that there is a difference between "mighty" and "Almighty." At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is identified as "Mighty God" and God the Father is also identified as "Mighty God" and as "Almighty God." The point is the fact that being "Mighty God" or "Almighty God" there is no difference because God is God, peirod.

Now we come to Exodus 3 and here is what you said, "Since Almighty God could never come to earth (His very approaching Presence would burn us to a crisp), --- then this appearance had to be the Word, who could not be seen, but spoke from the midst of the bush and said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Here again you are obviously thinking that God the Father is "Almighty" but the Son is just a junior "Mighty God?" Again, that is not how it works because what your doing to support your preconceived position that Jesus Christ is not God is trying to fit two pounds of "baloney" in a one pound bad.

Not only that, but Jesus Christ Himself said that God the Father cannot be seen. Please read John 5:37 and John 6:46. You have to keep in mind that Jesus Christ is the only visible manfestation of His Father. Please read John 1:18 and 1 Timothy 3:16. Getting back to Exodus 3 verse 2 says, "And the angel of the Lord appeared to him/Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked and behold, the bush was burning with fire yet the bush was not consumed."

Look at vs4, "WHEN THE LORD saw that he turned aside to look, GOD CALLED TO HIM FROM THE MIDST OF THE BUSH, and said, Moses, Moses!" And he said Here I am." Vs6, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" Then Moses hid his face, (why placid?) because HE WAS AFRAID TO LOOK AT GOD." So you see placid, it was the angel of the Lord that appeared in the bush who is clearly identified as God, that is what the text clearly says.

Finally, you said this: "When did Abraham first meet the Lord? --- I Genesis 18:" No, it was not at Genesis 18, it was technically at Genesis 12:7 and at Genesis 15:18 the Lord made a covenant with Abraham and then the Lord physically appeared to Abram at Genesis 17:1,2. I'll stop here and will gladly address any questions you might have.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

　

 

[Quasar92]

Well placid, I really appreciate you taking the time to address the verses I provided. The thing I want you to notice is of vital importance is this? Whether or not the Jews are correctly or incorrectly understanding Jesus is not the issue. The issue is what was it that Jesus said that caused them to say He was claiming to be God that so upset the Jews to the point of accusing Him of blasphemy and wanting to kill Him? Please think about the question placid?

Starting at John 5:17,18 Jesus is claiming that God is His own Father. Jesus does not mean this in the sense of the Jews also claiming they are the sons of God as well. Also notice the language of Jesus at Luke 2:49, "And he said to them/His parents, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know I had to be in MY FATHER'S house." This was when Jesus was just a boy and He calls God, "My Father."

Now to John 8:58, please notice the words of Jesus? "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." What is the reaction of the Jews? Vs59, "Therefore, they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple." In other words, Jesus is saying He existed even before Abraham was born. Now, I notice placid that you brought up John 1:1 but before I address that issue I would like you to read John 1:15 and what John the Baptist says, "John bore witness of Him/Jesus, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, FOR HE EXISTED BEFORE ME." John the Baptist was born six months earlier that Jesus Christ.

Now for John 1:1 and here is what you said, "Response: --- It says in John 1:1 that there were two who were called God, --- Almighty God (Theov), and the Word called God (Theos)." Your adding to God's word placid, the verse does not use the word, "Almighty." As a side note I hope you have not been talking to quasar? He says that there is a difference between "mighty" and "Almighty." At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is identified as "Mighty God" and God the Father is also identified as "Mighty God" and as "Almighty God." The point is the fact that being "Mighty God" or "Almighty God" there is no difference because God is God, peirod.

Now we come to Exodus 3 and here is what you said, "Since Almighty God could never come to earth (His very approaching Presence would burn us to a crisp), --- then this appearance had to be the Word, who could not be seen, but spoke from the midst of the bush and said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Here again you are obviously thinking that God the Father is "Almighty" but the Son is just a junior "Mighty God?" Again, that is not how it works because what your doing to support your preconceived position that Jesus Christ is not God is trying to fit two pounds of "baloney" in a one pound bad.

Not only that, but Jesus Christ Himself said that God the Father cannot be seen. Please read John 5:37 and John 6:46. You have to keep in mind that Jesus Christ is the only visible manfestation of His Father. Please read John 1:18 and 1 Timothy 3:16. Getting back to Exodus 3 verse 2 says, "And the angel of the Lord appeared to him/Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked and behold, the bush was burning with fire yet the bush was not consumed."

Look at vs4, "WHEN THE LORD saw that he turned aside to look, GOD CALLED TO HIM FROM THE MIDST OF THE BUSH, and said, Moses, Moses!" And he said Here I am." Vs6, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" Then Moses hid his face, (why placid?) because HE WAS AFRAID TO LOOK AT GOD." So you see placid, it was the angel of the Lord that appeared in the bush who is clearly identified as God, that is what the text clearly says.

Finally, you said this: "When did Abraham first meet the Lord? --- I Genesis 18:" No, it was not at Genesis 18, it was technically at Genesis 12:7 and at Genesis 15:18 the Lord made a covenant with Abraham and then the Lord physically appeared to Abram at Genesis 17:1,2. I'll stop here and will gladly address any questions you might have.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

　

Time does not permit me to answer your impassioned indignance tonight, bluto. But you will have one when I find the time to do so. It's time to cut out the rationalizing and trying to support a man made doctrine, you will never prove from the Bible, Jesus or His disciples, who do not teach a Trinity!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

My apology for responding to you under the wrong post, bluto. I have 15 or 20 email notices to check out in my personal email box, and came up with the wrong response in the one above, with the one you wrote to me. I'm sure you know which one it is without any further discussion.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

And yet again, you are unable to handle the criticisms. I have told you why you're interpretation is flawed, and you have yet to interact with it. You only read one phrase in Colossians 1.15 without reading it in its entirety. The hoti clause in the sentence puts quite the damper on your interpretation. Isn't it funny how you brag about having such better credentials than some of those who have responded to you, and yet here you resort to a dictionary.

I don't think you're fit enough to handle a conversation.

Don't be sounding off that I can't handle your views! I have told you before, my views are set forth directly from the Scriptures in 471, in which I have no intentions of arguing with your opinions about it. I was a Trinitarian for 45 years and have spent 35 researching and studying what and how God describes Himself together with the origin of Jesus. This wasn't a tale composed last Tuesday!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Hi bluto,

bluto quoted: Now your being ridiculous quasar? What are you talking about when you say the title "Father" is added to the Holy Spirit and to the Son? And for the hundreth time, God the Father is "NOT" the "PERSON" of the Holy Spirit. John 4:24 says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship in spirit and truth." The point the Apostle John is making is the fact that God is a spiritual being, not that God is the person of the Holy Spirit.

This is proven by the fact that the last part of the verse tells us that man is suppose to worship this spiritual being by way of our spirit in truth. This is backed up by John 4:23, which says the same thing, "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH."

No, bluto, I am not being ridiculous, but rather, the logic of Trinitatianism is! They take two titles, Father and Son, and add the Holy Spirit to them, to make a triune Godhead.

Both terms of Father and Son are titles, as the case is in all human families, where there is a father and son. However, the Scriptures clearly identify who and what God is, contradicting the teachings of the Trinity, documented below:

1. Jesus, Paul and John identify God in: Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as the invisible Spirit. There is a spiritual body, according to 1 Cor.15:44.

2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. If God is not the Holy Spirit, as the Scriptures say He is, bluto, please tell me what you think He is.

3.God is also the Father, which is His title, of who He is, according to the above Scriptures, the Holy Spirit. Recorded in Mt.1:20; Lk.1:32, 35; 2 Sam.714; 1 Chr.7:13; 22:10 and Ps.2:7. If God is not the Holy Spirit AND Father, as the Scriptures say He is, bluto, please tell me what you think He is.


[/QUOTE]

bluto quoted: You really do have this bad habit quasar of taking verses (not only here) but in many other places and ripping them out of their context. The very fact I have to point this out means your not seeing it for yourself. And btw, I'm not the only one pointing this out, many others are as well. You also stated that you use to be a Trinitarian for 45 years and you got tired of trying to explain it because you did not understand it.

All Trinitarians disagree with me, bluto. Now show me what you think I have posted that is out of context, since you have run out of legitimate Scriptural support, and have to resort to opinion, for your attempt to rebuke what I have posted.


[/QUOTE]

pluto quoted: Did you ever read what the Apostle Peter said about the Apostle Paul at 2 Peter 3:16? "as also in his letters speaking of them of these things, IN WHICH SOME THINGS ARE HARD TO UNDERSTAND, WHICH THE UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE DISTORT, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." So you see quasar, just because things in the Bible are hard to understand does not mean their untrue.

Yes, I have read them all, many times over. And your point is precisely what?


[/QUOTE]

Quoted by bluto: I also noticed that your addressing a post that was for placid, which is fine but did you actually go to the verses I referenced and read them to show Jesus Christ is equal to God His Father and was accused of blasphemy for doing so resulting in His death on that cross? And as far as your last sentence is concerned, this to is "ridiculous." What I see you doing is making the Son a separate person from Jesus? The one person of Jesus Christ is both deity and human. Jesus has two natures, one on His Father's side and one on His mother's side.

Yes, I became aware of that and apologized to you for it in another post you have probably found by now. I had 15 or 20 emails sent to me from this site to address, and I simply picked the wrong one in attempting to reply to you

No, bluto. With tongue in cheek, I was chiding you.as the Trinitarian you are; since you conclude, the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father, is how you identify who God is, you are using His title as Father, in composing it. While I have shown you in the above, God is the Holy Spirit, and His title is Father, one person, not two. So, in jest, I asked you why Trinitarians aren't using the same logic in connection with Jesus and His title as Son, to make them two persons, instead of the one He is. Thereby making a quad Godhead.

According to the Scriptures, there is only ONE true God, as Jesus pointed out in Jn.14:28 and in 17:3, as well as what the Holy Spirit said of Himself in: Deut.4:35; Isa.43:10; 44:6 and in 45:5, plus many more places.

Quted by bluto: There is "NOT" a human Son (that is named Jesus) that showed up as a human being at His incarnation and then a divine person named Jesus who is separate from the human Son Jesus? John 1:1 says that Jesus Christ is with God and is identified as God who became flesh/human at John 1:14. In short, no one is asking you to understand it, I don't understand it myself but I accept it because I am taking God at His word based on that is what He said.

The pre-incarnate spirit, the firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15, confirming
Pr.8:22-25, is the very same person as the human Jesus, in Jn.1:14, the result of Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:32, 35:

Heb.10:5:"Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;"

According to the above Scriptures, the pre-incarnate Jesus cannot possibly be either co-eternal or co-equal with the Father.


As I have said a number of times before, all of the above can and is fully teachable, directly from the Scriptures, together with exposing attempts by Trinitarians to prove the Trinity by deception, in the altered Mt.28:18 and additive 1 Jn.5:7. By the same token, neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciples ever taught the Trinity. When all pre-conceived views, rationalizing and dogmatic thinking is set aside, it is very easy to see and understand the Scriptural teaching of who and what God is as well as the origin of Jesus. Together with the timing, pertaining to when Jesus became the Son of God/God the Son, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32-35.


Quasar92

 

[Placid]

Hi RBA,
Quote from Post 912:
And after the Resurrection and appearances on earth, Jesus ascended to heaven and was exalted to become the "High Priest in heaven after the order of Melchizedek."
Hebrews 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.

(You said) The "Right Hand of God" Or.."Jesus sits on The Right Hand of God" Signifies The eternal One Gods POWER Not a second or a third person
　
Response: --- I see that in Post 917 you kind of agree with Bluto that Jesus was 'equal' with God, --- so that is adopting the Roman trinity model which said 'co-equal.'
--- They couldn't be equal because Jesus was born by special birth on earth with blood in His veins, so could not be the same as God in heaven who is a SPIRIT.
Jesus was 'unique' --- 'one of a kind,' for God's special purpose.'
　
I did not find your words in Scripture, "Jesus sits on the right hand of God."
In checking all of the references it refers to Christ sitting on the right hand of God, --- and the two places it refers to Jesus it says, --- as above in Hebrews 8:
1 "Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man."
--- Notice that Jesus, as the heavenly High Priest is SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE 'THRONE' --- and it says that He is "A MINISTER OF THE SANCTUARY OF THE TRUE TABERNACLE. --- which the Lord erected in heaven.
It mentions this once more where it names Jesus in Hebrew 12:
1 "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
--- So notice His position, "SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE 'THRONE' OF GOD." --- That would be in the sanctuary of the Tabernacle in heaven as "The High Priest, after the order of Melchizedek."
　
Jesus was human, and was indwelt by those from God, or from heaven, --- the Word, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, who spoke through Him.
--- Jesus and Christ were together until the death, and while it says they both died and shed blood, that could only be Jesus because Christ was a Spiritual being. --- After the Resurrection, they saw the changed body of Jesus, a body of flesh and bones, but no blood, and He was again alive in the Holy Spirit.
--- Christ returned to his position at the 'right hand of God', --- and Jesus became the High Priest in the Sanctuary, prepared for Him.
(I realize that you might have more questions.)

 

[bluto]

Not so quasar, your the one that has this whole issue "butt" backwards. Trinitarians do not take two titles of the Father and Son and add the Holy Spirit to them to make a triune Godhead. Your the one that takes the title God the Father and then attribute the title of the Holy Spirit to the Father.

But here is what you don't know? You don't know the definition of "title" so let me give it to you.

noun 1. the distinguishing name of a book, poem, picture, piece of music, or the like.

2. a descriptive heading or caption, as of a chapter, section, or other part of a book.

3. title page.

4. a descriptive or distinctive appellation, especially one belonging to a person by right of rank, office, attainment, etc.: the title of Lord Mayor.


5. Sports. the championship: He won the title three years in a row.


6. an established or recognized right to something.

7. a ground or basis for a claim.



A title is not a name but just that a title. Obama has the title of President of the United States, when he leaves office he no long has that title because now he is no longer the President, he's a civilan like the rest of us. In the case of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit these are not titles but that is actually who they are and forever will be. Remember I quoted you Revelation 1:8 where Jesus is talking and He says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME THE ALMIGHTY.

Of course you deny the words of Jesus (in reality your calling the words of Jesus a lie) by applying them to God the Father. And what does God the Father say at Hebrews 1:5? "And again, I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me?" This is a "rhetorical" question by God the Father which means God does not expect an answer! A rhetorica question is to encourage the listerner to reflect on what the implied answer to the question must be.

In other words, God the Father is actually the "REAL" Father of Jesus Christ and not just a title. Remember, it's a universal law that a son has the same exact nature as its father. And the Son will never not be the son of his father whereas a title will at some point come to an end, even at death because the person no longer holds that position. Now, I've only addressed a part of your post but as Arnold said, "I'll be back."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Placid]

Hi Bluto,
　
The other verses from Post 909:
John 10:30-37, John 19:7, and read the trial transcript at Matthew 26:59-67. I want you to notice what is the common theme in all these verses? Got to run!
　
John 10:30-37:
36 Do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
--- The same theme is there, they tried to accuse Him of blasphemy because He said He was the Son of God, which had been said from the beginning. --- It said in John 1:
49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"
　
John 19:17:
19 Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:
JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
--- This is what Nethaniel said above, --- in fact this was the question that the wismen asked in Matthew 2:
1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem,
2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews?"
3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
5 So they said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea."
--- You see, this was known from when Jesus was born, so it is kind of lame for the Pharisees to try to accuse Jesus of something that was already known.
　
Matthew 26:59-67:
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!"
64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
　
Now I want to show you something. Whenever Jesus spoke words of wisdom, or prophecy, --- they came from Christ, or the Holy Spirit who indwelt Jesus.
This prophecy would have been spoken by Christ, as it was Christ 'sitting at the right hand of God,' --- and who would later come in the clouds of heaven in Matthew 24:
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
--- Christ was the Son of Man mentioned in Daniel 7:
"I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away."
--- So this was the Kingdom of Christ, and it mentions Him coming in Matthew 25:
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
--- So Christ will be a King on His throne to judge the people. --- And Jesus will be the High Priest in the Sanctuary of heaven. --- They fulfilled separate roles on earth, and now have their everlasting positions in heaven.
　

 

[Placid]

Hi Quasar92,

I tried to find your definition on God in Post 471, but could not get to the proper page. Sorry.
--- I wonder if you could reprint it for us new posters, as I am interested in it.


Thanks, Placid

 

[bluto]

Hi placid! I notice you are taking the verses out of context so let me explain why I gave you those verses and what the common theme can be found in them. Starting with John 5:17,18 we have Jesus saying, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." The Jews at vs18 took up stones to kill Jesus because He called God His own Father. The fact of the matter is that Jesus Christ is indeed the one and only begotten Son of God the Father as in there are not others according to (John 3:16).

In fact at Luke 2:49 Jesus says as a boy to His parents, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in MY FATHER'S house." Jesus clearly says, "My Father's" house. At John 10:30 Jesus says, "I and the Father, we are one." The Jews say at vs33, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out God."

John 19:7, "We have a law, and by that law he ought to die because (or why) he made Himself out the Son of God." Please notice placid, Jesus made Himself out the Son of God. Why is being the "Son of God" worthy of death since the Jews themselves claim they are the sons of God as well?

Now to the trial transcript at Matthew 26:59-66. The high priest Caiaphas ask Jesus to swear an oath, vs63, "And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You (to swear) by the living God, that You tell us WHETHER (which means the high priest is aksing the one person of Jesus Christ) #1, are You the Christ/Messiah and #2, the Son of God." At Luke 22:70 Jesus says, "I am." Please notice he's asking if Jesus is the Son of God, not "are you God." There's a reason for this which I will now explain.

At Matthew 16:13 Jesus ask the following question? "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" Peter answers at Matthew 16:16, "Thou art the Christ/Messiah #1 and #2, the Son of the living God." The same thing the high priest ask? Jesus also says to Peter that "My Father who is in heaven revealed this to you." Matthew 16:17.

Now, in the Hebrew language there are certain "idioms" which are used all througout the Bible not only in the Old Testament but in the New Testament as well. For example, "Sons of the prophets at 1 Kings 20:35 refer to men belonging to a prophetic band. Or "Sos of the goldsmiths at Nehimiah 3:31 is a goldsmith.

Right now I am focusing on the specific idiom "the son of." The follwoing idiom show the participation is a state or condition. Sons of affliction Provers 31:5, are afflicted ones. Or "Sons of exile were Jews who had lived in exile. There there is the "son of" idiom which shows a certain character. Son of valor 1 Samuel 14:52, is simply a "valiant man." Sons of foolishness at Job 30:8, refer to senseless people.

Now comes the "son of" which is the possessing a certain nature. This is the one were concerned with right now in the case of Jesus Christ. The expression "son of man" clearly exhibits the use of the word "son" to show the possession of a certain nature. Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."

Jesus Himself referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and of course the "Son of God." Jesus has two natures, one on His mothers side which is humand and one on His Father's side which of course is "Deity." This is how the Jews knew what Jesus meant and why they accused Him of blasphemy for claiming to be the "Son of God." And how they also understood what Jesus meant when He said, "I and My Father, we are one." This is talking about Jesus having the same nature as God His Father.

This is what I'm talking about when I say there is a common theme that connects all of this Biblical references I have give you. Lastly, the authorial intent of the Apostle John can be found at John 20:31, "but these have been written that you may believe that #1, Jesus is the Christ/Messiah and #2, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

Notice just before John comes states this what the orthodox Jew Thomas declares at John 20:28, "Thomas answered and said to Him/Jesus literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me." This is why I can close out my post by saying below,

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I almost forgot to post a few of the Ancient Hebrew Idioms. Please notice the "Son of" idiom is among them. I also forgot to give you a couple idioms from the New testament. Here are two!

Son of peace at Luke 10:6 refers to a peaceful person. Son of perdition at John 17:12 and 2 Thessolians 2:3 is the lost one. This one refers to Judas.

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD]Jer 7.12[/TD]
[TD] Where I caused my name to dwell[/TD]
[TD] where I chose to be worshiped[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jer 9.1[/TD]
[TD] waters[/TD]
[TD] spring of water[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jer. 25.15[/TD]
[TD] Wine of wrath[/TD]
[TD] my anger[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jer 50.33[/TD]
[TD] Sons of[/TD]
[TD] people of [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jer 51.37[/TD]
[TD] Hissing[/TD]
[TD] scorn[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lam 1.16[/TD]
[TD] Eyes run down with water[/TD]
[TD] eyes flow with tears[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD]Ezek 3.7[/TD]
[TD] Hard forehead[/TD]
[TD] stubborn[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD]Ezek 16.25[/TD]
[TD] Spread feet[/TD]
[TD] offer self for sex[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ezek 16.26[/TD]
[TD] Big of phallus[/TD]
[TD] lustful[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mal 1.11[/TD]
[TD] My name[/TD]
[TD] me[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mal 2.12[/TD]
[TD] he who awakens and he who answers[/TD]
[TD] every single person[/TD]
[/TR]
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[TD] [SIZE=-1]Web[/SIZE] [/TD]
[TD] [SIZE=-1]Ancient-Hebrew.Org[/SIZE] [/TD]
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[TD="width: 200"]OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO [/TD]
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[Placid]

Hi Bluto,

Have a good weekend. There is more, but we can take a rest.

 

[Quasar92]

Not so quasar, your the one that has this whole issue "butt" backwards. Trinitarians do not take two titles of the Father and Son and add the Holy Spirit to them to make a triune Godhead. Your the one that takes the title God the Father and then attribute the title of the Holy Spirit to the Father.

But here is what you don't know? You don't know the definition of "title" so let me give it to you.

noun 1. the distinguishing name of a book, poem, picture, piece of music, or the like.

2. a descriptive heading or caption, as of a chapter, section, or other part of a book.

3. title page.

4. a descriptive or distinctive appellation, especially one belonging to a person by right of rank, office, attainment, etc.: the title of Lord Mayor.


5. Sports. the championship: He won the title three years in a row.


6. an established or recognized right to something.

7. a ground or basis for a claim.



A title is not a name but just that a title. Obama has the title of President of the United States, when he leaves office he no long has that title because now he is no longer the President, he's a civilan like the rest of us. In the case of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit these are not titles but that is actually who they are and forever will be. Remember I quoted you Revelation 1:8 where Jesus is talking and He says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME THE ALMIGHTY.

Of course you deny the words of Jesus (in reality your calling the words of Jesus a lie) by applying them to God the Father. And what does God the Father say at Hebrews 1:5? "And again, I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be a Son to Me?" This is a "rhetorical" question by God the Father which means God does not expect an answer! A rhetorica question is to encourage the listerner to reflect on what the implied answer to the question must be.

In other words, God the Father is actually the "REAL" Father of Jesus Christ and not just a title. Remember, it's a universal law that a son has the same exact nature as its father. And the Son will never not be the son of his father whereas a title will at some point come to an end, even at death because the person no longer holds that position. Now, I've only addressed a part of your post but as Arnold said, "I'll be back."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

The above is pure opinion and a failure as any kind of rebuttal to my post 827. You spit and argue over a man made doctrine the Bible, Jesus nor His disciples ever taught, and you are still going to stake your life on it! Too qad, as I have no more time to try opening your eyes to Scriptural common sense! You really struggle trying to deny the terms father and son are titles by your rationalizing, in the same manner you attempt to rationalize firstborn into everything except its primary meaning, of the first child born to its mother and father. I sincerely hope the day will come when you get tired of defending a false man made doctrine and start looking for Sriptural truth.


Quasar92

 

[popeye]

eview 471 on pge 24, for the Biblical Description of Go0d and origin of Jesus. Where the Scriptures reveal, God is the Holy Spirit AND Father, His title, one person, not two. The alteration of Mt.28:19 and additive of 1 Jn.5:7 is another factor in throwing people off, trying to convince them that God is triune. Be fully aware of the fact that neither the Bible, Jesus, nor His disciples ever taught the Trinity.


Quasar92

You are a heretic

 

[popeye]

Hi bluto,




No, bluto, I am not being ridiculous, but rather, the logic of Trinitatianism is! They take two titles, Father and Son, and add the Holy Spirit to them, to make a triune Godhead.

Both terms of Father and Son are titles, as the case is in all human families, where there is a father and son. However, the Scriptures clearly identify who and what God is, contradicting the teachings of the Trinity, documented below:

1. Jesus, Paul and John identify God in: Jn.1:18, 4:24; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18, Col.1:15 and 1 Jn.4:12, when they identify Him as the invisible Spirit. There is a spiritual body, according to 1 Cor.15:44.

2. God, who is the Spirit, makes it clear that He is also Holy, in Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5; 1 Pet.1:15-16 and in Rev.4:8. Therefore there is no option to the fact that God is the HOLY SPIRIT. If God is not the Holy Spirit, as the Scriptures say He is, bluto, please tell me what you think He is.

3.God is also the Father, which is His title, of who He is, according to the above Scriptures, the Holy Spirit. Recorded in Mt.1:20; Lk.1:32, 35; 2 Sam.714; 1 Chr.7:13; 22:10 and Ps.2:7. If God is not the Holy Spirit AND Father, as the Scriptures say He is, bluto, please tell me what you think He is.

All Trinitarians disagree with me, bluto. Now show me what you think I have posted that is out of context, since you have run out of legitimate Scriptural support, and have to resort to opinion, for your attempt to rebuke what I have posted.


[/QUOTE]


Yes, I have read them all, many times over. And your point is precisely what?


[/QUOTE]


Yes, I became aware of that and apologized to you for it in another post you have probably found by now. I had 15 or 20 emails sent to me from this site to address, and I simply picked the wrong one in attempting to reply to you

No, bluto. With tongue in cheek, I was chiding you.as the Trinitarian you are; since you conclude, the Holy Spirit, the Son and the Father, is how you identify who God is, you are using His title as Father, in composing it. While I have shown you in the above, God is the Holy Spirit, and His title is Father, one person, not two. So, in jest, I asked you why Trinitarians aren't using the same logic in connection with Jesus and His title as Son, to make them two persons, instead of the one He is. Thereby making a quad Godhead.

According to the Scriptures, there is only ONE true God, as Jesus pointed out in Jn.14:28 and in 17:3, as well as what the Holy Spirit said of Himself in: Deut.4:35; Isa.43:10; 44:6 and in 45:5, plus many more places.





The pre-incarnate spirit, the firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15, confirming
Pr.8:22-25, is the very same person as the human Jesus, in Jn.1:14, the result of Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:32, 35:

Heb.10:5:"Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;"

According to the above Scriptures, the pre-incarnate Jesus cannot possibly be either co-eternal or co-equal with the Father.


As I have said a number of times before, all of the above can and is fully teachable, directly from the Scriptures, together with exposing attempts by Trinitarians to prove the Trinity by deception, in the altered Mt.28:18 and additive 1 Jn.5:7. By the same token, neither the Bible, Jesus nor His disciples ever taught the Trinity. When all pre-conceived views, rationalizing and dogmatic thinking is set aside, it is very easy to see and understand the Scriptural teaching of who and what God is as well as the origin of Jesus. Together with the timing, pertaining to when Jesus became the Son of God/God the Son, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32-35.


Quasar92[/QUOTE]

According to the above Scriptures, the pre-incarnate Jesus cannot possibly be either co-eternal or co-equal with the Father.

You are a heretic

What cult are you with?

Watchtower?

 

[popeye]

Your above is the epitome of Scriptural ignorance! Where did you obtain the qualifications to teach the Bible and to be telling those who have them, they are uninformed? Jesus is not now, nor ever was Almighty God. Rev.1:8 speaks of he Father, not Jesus. Read Jn.8:28! See also:


Rev.21:22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


Quasar92

Shifts the interrogation light into Quasar's face

Where did you get your's?????

What College/website.

If you did infact get credentials we need to know where,and a link into the group you are affiliated with.

 

[popeye]

Well placid, I really appreciate you taking the time to address the verses I provided. The thing I want you to notice is of vital importance is this? Whether or not the Jews are correctly or incorrectly understanding Jesus is not the issue. The issue is what was it that Jesus said that caused them to say He was claiming to be God that so upset the Jews to the point of accusing Him of blasphemy and wanting to kill Him? Please think about the question placid?

Starting at John 5:17,18 Jesus is claiming that God is His own Father. Jesus does not mean this in the sense of the Jews also claiming they are the sons of God as well. Also notice the language of Jesus at Luke 2:49, "And he said to them/His parents, "Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know I had to be in MY FATHER'S house." This was when Jesus was just a boy and He calls God, "My Father."

Now to John 8:58, please notice the words of Jesus? "Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." What is the reaction of the Jews? Vs59, "Therefore, they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple." In other words, Jesus is saying He existed even before Abraham was born. Now, I notice placid that you brought up John 1:1 but before I address that issue I would like you to read John 1:15 and what John the Baptist says, "John bore witness of Him/Jesus, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, FOR HE EXISTED BEFORE ME." John the Baptist was born six months earlier that Jesus Christ.

Now for John 1:1 and here is what you said, "Response: --- It says in John 1:1 that there were two who were called God, --- Almighty God (Theov), and the Word called God (Theos)." Your adding to God's word placid, the verse does not use the word, "Almighty." As a side note I hope you have not been talking to quasar? He says that there is a difference between "mighty" and "Almighty." At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is identified as "Mighty God" and God the Father is also identified as "Mighty God" and as "Almighty God." The point is the fact that being "Mighty God" or "Almighty God" there is no difference because God is God, peirod.

Now we come to Exodus 3 and here is what you said, "Since Almighty God could never come to earth (His very approaching Presence would burn us to a crisp), --- then this appearance had to be the Word, who could not be seen, but spoke from the midst of the bush and said, "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Here again you are obviously thinking that God the Father is "Almighty" but the Son is just a junior "Mighty God?" Again, that is not how it works because what your doing to support your preconceived position that Jesus Christ is not God is trying to fit two pounds of "baloney" in a one pound bad.

Not only that, but Jesus Christ Himself said that God the Father cannot be seen. Please read John 5:37 and John 6:46. You have to keep in mind that Jesus Christ is the only visible manfestation of His Father. Please read John 1:18 and 1 Timothy 3:16. Getting back to Exodus 3 verse 2 says, "And the angel of the Lord appeared to him/Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked and behold, the bush was burning with fire yet the bush was not consumed."

Look at vs4, "WHEN THE LORD saw that he turned aside to look, GOD CALLED TO HIM FROM THE MIDST OF THE BUSH, and said, Moses, Moses!" And he said Here I am." Vs6, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" Then Moses hid his face, (why placid?) because HE WAS AFRAID TO LOOK AT GOD." So you see placid, it was the angel of the Lord that appeared in the bush who is clearly identified as God, that is what the text clearly says.

Finally, you said this: "When did Abraham first meet the Lord? --- I Genesis 18:" No, it was not at Genesis 18, it was technically at Genesis 12:7 and at Genesis 15:18 the Lord made a covenant with Abraham and then the Lord physically appeared to Abram at Genesis 17:1,2. I'll stop here and will gladly address any questions you might have.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

　

Quasar seems watchtower.

That " mighty" vs " almighty" is watchtower heresy and right out of their literature

 

[popeye]

To misunderstand the trinity is to strip out the foundation by tampering with the corner stone.

The building will now be a joke with all the modifications needed to prop the rickety thing up.

 

[popeye]

Ok, let's dissect what you stated..1st Jesus Christ never existed until he was Born through Mary, So God in a Human Form as in Genesis 18 was an "Instant Manifestation " of The Unseen Eternal Spirit, a Theopony is what it is/was.Melchesedec "The High Priest of Salem
(Jerusalem) was another Theopony of God. Since noone can ever look upon God in Spirit form, he used the Instant Human covering at his will.
Now, The Angels are given the same power to be seen as a Theopony like God .

How can this be proven? Read this verse to see for yourself: Hebrews 13 verse 2: "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained ANGELS UNAWARES".

More watchtower cult heretical trash.