Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

Quasar92 · Oct 6, 2016

The views I havfe expressed in 471 are crystal clear with no ambiguity whatever. If you don't agree with my views, that is your prerogative which I am not going to argue with you about. 471 is all fully supported by Scripture. Isa.45:5 and a number of other verses like it, clearly reveal Yahwey, God, who is the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus, is the one and only God in the OT. Though the pre-incarnate Jesus was the Firstborn over all creation and with Him in the beginning, before the universe was created, as recorded in Jn.17:5. and in Heb.1:2. And yes, I make no effort to keep up with the views of everyone else, unless I'm notified by email.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Oct 6, 2016

williamjordan said:

Quasar,

I have also read much of the post you directed me to, and I take issue with it as well.

For one, I think your interpretation of Colossians 1.15 is flawed. Allow me to explain.

When Paul speaks of Christ as the “Firstborn,” he is not depicting Christ as the first-created of God’s creations. Of course, “Firstborn,” as it is used throughout the Old Testament is often used in reference to the preeminence of an individual, and is clearly seen in the highly Messianic Psalm, in which David (who here is a typification of the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ), the youngest amongst the sons of Jesse (1 Sam 16.11-13), is described and appointed as God’s “firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89.27). It is Christ, as the Son of God, who is the “Firstborn” in the sense that He is the “heir” of all things, for everything that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son (John 16.15, 17.10). As the “firstborn” is the heir to all of his father’s estate, so too is Christ the heir of all the Heavenly Father’s estate, namely, all of creation (Col 1.15, Heb 1.2, Psalm 2.7-8).

We could discuss partitive genitives (“one of the students of the class”), or genitives of subordination (“King over Israel”) and its correlative analogous genitive (“King of Israel”), but because it is possible to understand this phrase as a partitive genitive in light of Orthodoxy (in light of the incarnation, the man Christ is most supreme, the most preeminent of all creation), I would instead like to direct attention to the preposition found in v. 16, ὅτι (“He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, because…”), because our understanding of the subsequent things that Paul has to say is key to understanding what he meant by referring to Christ as “Firstborn of all creation.” The reason for Christ being called the “Firstborn of all creation” is “because all things were made in Him… through Him… and for Him.” This statement of course makes little or no sense if the phrase “Firstborn of all creation” is meant to mean that Christ is the first of God's creations. How is it that Christ is the first-created of all creation, because all things were created in, through, and for Him?

Of course, as most of us probably know, the Watchtower has a way around this by the simple addition of the word "other" into v. 16. They argue, that because the word “all,” does not always mean “all without exception” that this somehow justifies the insertion of “other” into the text. In their attempt to be consistent, they have added “other” in a number of places throughout Colossians 1 (v. 16 [x2]; v. 17[x2]; v. 20[x1]) with exception to v. 18, and the one place it would counteract their theological motive, Colossians 1.15 (“the Firstborn of all creation”). Thus, in attempt to be consistent, they have actually become inconsistent in their application. Working through the remainder of the Book of Colossians also reveals this inconsistency.

In regards to the Witnesses, it seems strange that here at Colossians 1, Paul would suggest that it is “in,” and “through” Christ “all other things” came into existence, and turn right around in 1 Corinthians 8.6, and speak of “all things”within the created order as having their existence through Christ, particularly in light of the Father being the one “from whom are all things.” Of course, should one infer from 1 Corinthians 8.6 that through Christ “all other things” came into existence, then to remain consistent in application, they must also infer, that it is “from” the Father “whom are all other things.”

Moreover, when the expression τὰ πάντα ("all things") is used in the context of the created order, it , as Richard Bauckham has suggested (God Crucified: Monotheism and Christology, 32), “belongs to the standard rhetoric of Jewish monotheism, in which it constantly refers, quite naturally, to the whole of the created reality from which God is absolutely distinguished as its Creator, and Ruler,” i.e., Romans 11.36; 1 Cor 8.6; Ephesians 3.9; Heb 2.10; Gen 1.31; Neh 9.6; Eccl 3.11, 11.5; Job 8.3; Jer 10.16; 3 Macc 2.3; Wisdom 1.14, 9.1; Sirach 18.1, 23.20. Paul’s emphasis in the Christ-hymn upon the powers, the angelic agencies is circumstantial – it reflects Paul’s deliberate purpose and use of τὰ πάντα (v. 16).

Christ’s creation of “all things” serves as the sole basis of Him being “Firstborn of all creation.” If I were to say, “He is president of the United States, because he received the most votes,” the ground clause “because he received the most votes” modifies the predicate nominative “president” (giving the grounds for it) but does not contribute anything to the subordinate prepositional phrase “of the United States.” In fact, you could remove the subordinate prepositional phrase without issue, which again seems to indicate that there isn’t a link between it and the ground clause.

Whatever we take “Firstborn of all creation” to mean (and there are divergent views within Orthodoxy), it must be on the basis of Christ existing before, and creating all things as indicated in the ground clause, “because in Him all things in heaven and on earth were created.” This is elsewhere expressed throughout the NT, where the authority of the Creator over creation derives from the very act of creation itself (Revelation 4.11, Hebrews 2.8).

As I said, I'm not going to argue with you about your opinions. The first meaning f firstborn in the dictionary, is the first child born in the family, when you are ble to stop rtionalizing. It means the very same as it does in verse 18. According to Pr.8:22-25, the pre-incarnated Jesus was created, as I have so documented in 471.

Quasar92

fredoheaven · Oct 6, 2016

Eternal Life – John 17:3
One of the questions by the Jehovah Witnesses (Russelites) and other cultist to the Bible Believers is Eternal Life and how to get it. A usual response of the many cultist is to have “the knowledge of the TRUE GOD” which they refer to know and believe Jehovah as the only TRUE GOD.

However, the issue that underlies this text or such belief was met by the following:
·
Russelites and other cultist intend to cut the entire verse of the said text.

Explanation: The entire verse states that to have eternal life is to know the only TRUE GOD (Holy Father v.11) and Jesus Christ, whom He has sent. (Note: For additional clarification read the text again)

·Russelites/cultist alike do not want to get you know how to rightly divide the word of truth.

Explanation: The context is that the world or the people did not comprehend or no knowledge of the Father save His Son. Clearly on verse 25 our Lord stated that the world hath not known His Father, but only Him (see also Matthew 11:27). In such case knowing the Father is through Christ and only in Christ we can experience eternal life. (Verses like John 3:16; John 3:36; John 5:39-40; John 6:40 etc, sheds light to this truth.)

·Russelites/cultist are confused with the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ about His equality with His Father.

Explanation: Following down in verse 11 our Lord clearly stated that He and His Father are one “…that they may be one, as we are.” One in what? Verse 3 again, stated that His Father was the only TRUE GOD as John wrote it. However, the same writer speaks Jesus as the TRUE GOD (1 John 5:20). So we can see the harmony of the Bible that the Father and His Son are equal (John 10:30)

fredoheaven · Oct 6, 2016

Jesus Christ is Jehovah

Jehovah said: "…and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced" (Zec. 12:10). The preceding verses (1, 4, 7, 8) identify Jehovah as the one speaking. Christ is the one who was pierced, and John 19:37 clearly tells us that this prophecy was fulfilled in His crucifixion.
Jeremiah the prophet predicted that God would raise up a descendant of David who would reign and be called LORD, or Jehovah: "…this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Jer. 23:6). Jesus Christ was the descendent of David, who was to be called Jehovah our righteousness.
Who is Lord of the Sabbath? Christ said that He is. "Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath" (Mark 2:28).

Quasar92 · Oct 6, 2016

fredoheaven said:

Jer.23:6 "In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE Lord OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

[SUP]Zech.14:10 [/SUP]“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[SUP][[/SUP]a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

About the name Jehovah and the letter J:

The name "Jehovah" first appeared in an English BIBLE in 1530, when William Tyndale published a translation of the Chumash (the first five books of the Bible). In this, he included the name of God, usually spelled IEHOUAH, in several verses (Genesis 15:2; Exodus 6:3; 15:3; 17:6; 23:17; 33:19; 34:23; Deuteronomy 3:24. Tyndale also included God's name in Ezekiel 18:23 and 36:23 in his translations that were added at the end of THE NEW TESTAMENT, Antwerp, 1534), and in a note in this editon he wrote: "Iehovah is God's name... moreover as oft as thou seist LORD in great letters (except there be any error in the printing) is is in Hebrew Iehovah." (Please note as I told you previously, there was no "J" in English at this time; the J is a product of a stylized I; thus giving us the current Jehovah rather than the Old English Iehovah. The "u" used in the above names is also a reminder that there was no "v" in Old English, as you can read David in the original King James version was written "Dauid".)

In 1534 Martin Luther published his complete translation of the Bible in German, based on the original languages. While he used the German "Herr" (Lord or Sir) for the Tetragrammaton, in a sermon which he delivered in 1526 on Jeremiah 23:1-8, he said, "The name Jehovah, Lord, belongs exclusively to the true God."

Subsequently, Jehovah was used not only in the "Authorized" King James version of 1611, but the Spanish VALERA version of 1602, the Portugese ALMEIDA version of 1681, the German ELBERFELDER version of 1871, and the American Standard Version of 1901. It appears that the Jerusalem Bible was the first one to used Yahweh instead of Lord and Jehovah.

Jehovah is a transliteration for the phonetic pronunciation of the tetragramaton [YHWH] , Yahwey. It is a mistranslation in the use of Jehovah in ascribing it to Jesus.

Quasar92

RBA238 · Oct 6, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Agree! For all those who beleive in a 3 Person Godhead..let me pose this question: Show us in The Bible wheret ever states: "God, The Son" . Jesus is always addressed as "The Son of God" .

Placid · Oct 6, 2016

Hi Bluto,
Quote from Post 893:
Hi placid! You said this: "Actually since I wrote in Post 801 that 'none of the language of trinity is in the Bible,' you couldn't have read it there."
--- (You said) Your right, none of the language of the trinity is in the Bible."

You also quoted this statement: "Quote: (From the doctrine of trinity) "All things necessary for our faith and life are either expressly set down in Scripture or may be deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture."

--- Yes, you can deduce the Trinity teaching from Scripture. It's called in logic, "Deductive and Inductive" reasoning. This is what I used to support the teaching that in the Bible God the Father is identified as God, the Son of God Jesus Christ is identified as God in the Bible and so is the Holy Spirit identified as God in the Bible.

The following syllogism is a deduction of reasoning from the Bible that the trinity is true.

The Bible is clear in teaching there is ONE GOD.

The Bible is also clear that God the Father is identified as God. 1 Peter 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father."

The Bible is clear that the Son of God Jesus Chirst is also identified as God. John 1:1,
　
Response: --- Hey, you are quite honorable in acknowledging that the trinity language is not in the Scriptures. --- And that you, like many others have followed the Catholic model, to make others equal to God, --- and in the Catholic Churches they still have the Man, Jesus on the cross in a suffering position, --- but you have deduced that He is God.
　
The big difference in the understanding of John 1:1 is that the Word (Logos, the creative power of God) through whom all things were created, was with God in the beginning.
--- And the big switch was that the Catholic doctrine removed 'the Word' from John 1:1 --- "The Word was with God and the Word was God (Theos)," --- He was also called the "Son of God" John 1:18. --- So, the 'Word' was the heavenly Son of God, who came down to earth temporarily, --- and Jesus was called the earthly 'Son of God.' --- Jesus was the Manifestation of God, and the only one that could be seen . Christ and the Holy Spirit could not be seen, but they spoke through Jesus. --- The simple teaching of the Scripture is that Jesus was born on earth, that He lived on earth, and that He died on earth.
　
You see, a simple fellow like me reading theScripture --- (and not aware that the Roman Church had dominated the world since the 400's and crippled the spread of the Gospel), --- I read the story of the birth of Jesus in Matthew and Luke, --- then I read in Galatians 4:
4 "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons."
--- God could create a body of flesh through the Word and the Holy Spirit, but the human blood syatem had to come from Mary.
　
Then, after the crucifixion and resurrection I read this explanation in Hebrews 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

--- Jesus had to be a man to suffer death, --- and it goes on to say:
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
--- Yes Jesus was exalted to heaven after He fulfilled His mission on earth, and was resurrected in a new bloodless body, --- but from the simple teaching of the Scripture, --- Jesus was born on earth, lived on earth, and died on earth.

He was indwelt by the Holy Spirit who spoke through Him in wisdom and prophecies, but as a human, Jesus was the Vessel that God used to bring redemption to mankind.
"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission."
　
Can anyone explain why God required a blood sacrifice in the OT, and then the final blood Sacrifice of Jesus?
　

bluto · Oct 6, 2016

No placid, I am "NOT" following the Catholic model, I'm following what the Bible cearly says and teaches. I gave you verse that each person of the Trinity is identified as God, long before the RCC showed up. And yes, the persons of the trinity are equal. Why do you think the Jews wanted to crucify Jesus Christ for the crime of blasphemy?

Please read John 5:17,18, John 8:56-58, John 10:30-37, John 19:7, and read the trial transcript at Matthew 26:59-67. I want you to notice what is the common theme in all these verses? Got to run!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Quasar92 · Oct 6, 2016

bluto said:

Please tell me, bluto, why do Trinitarians take God's title of Father, like every man has when he produces children, and add it to the Holy Spirit and the Son, calling it a triune personage? God is the Holy Spirit, according to Jn.4:24 and 2 Cor.3:17-18, you know.

With that kind of logic, why don't Trinitarians use the same kind of logic for the Son and Jesus, making a quad Godhead instead of triune?

Quasar92

Placid · Oct 6, 2016

To continue from Post 892 with "The second phase of the redemption of man":
　
When Jesus began His Public Ministry, John was till preaching and baptizing, so they overlapped a little, but the crowds, who were 'prepared by John' began to follow Jesus because of the miracles they saw among them. --- As well as teaching, He fed the 5000 on the hillside, and healed the sick and cast out evil spirits. He raised the dead, including Lazarus in John 11, and comforted the people with His words.
　
--- Again it says in Matthew 4:
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.
25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.
--- (That was the scene in Syria then, --- quite a contrast to today.) --- And at that time, "Great multiudes followed Him."
　
Jesus was the Manifestation of God on earth, and represented everything that God was. --- While Jesus had His own human intellect, He was also indwelt by the Holy Spirit who would speak through Him in wisdom and prophecy. --- So prophetic words, and the power to heal the sick and deliver from evil spirits, was the work of the Holy Spirit through Him.
--- Jesus was the FOCUS of all the people and they all wanted to see Him.
　
From His conception, He had the power of God in Him as it said in Luke 1:
34 And Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, seeing I do not know a man?
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."
--- The Power of the Highest was the Word (Logos, the creative power of God.)
And Jesus would be CALLED, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and also, the Son of Man.
--- Jesus also had other names, some of which are listed, starting in John 9:
5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved,
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."
　
12:23 (And then) Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified."
--- It was the Holy Spirit that spoke this prophetic sentence through Jesus, so it was not from the mind of Jesus, --- and it was after this prophecy, "The hour has come that the Son of man should be glorified." --- which meant His death, --- that Jesus said the next verse:
27 "Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour."
--- (It was after this realization that Jesus showed human emotion as he faced this hour.)
　
After the Last Supper with the disciples, when He asked them to pray with Him in the Garden --- it says in Luke 22:
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed,
42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

--- He said the words, "Father if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me" --- So the desire was there to change, or avoid, His prophesied 'death on the cross,' --- but in obedience, He said, --- "Nevertheless not My will, but Yours be done."
--- God did not change the situation, so He sent an angel to Jesus to strengthen Him. --- But it does say in the next verse:
44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
　
--- This is the evidence that Jesus was human and that He suffered human agony, in knowing what was coming. While Jesus' desire would have been to avoid fulfilling the prophecy, --- yet He submitted to God's will. --- It speaks of this suffering of Jesus also in Hebrews 5:
7 Who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, --- (God heard Him, but denied the request)
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of 'eternal salvation' to all who obey Him,
10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"
　
When the crucifixion was near its end, the last utterance must have been this, recorded in John 19:
30 Jesus said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
--- The Sacrifice was complete, and accepted.

Matthew records in 27:
51 "Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split."
--- The veil that separated the inner prayer room was removed so the Holy of Holies was open to all through the veil of His blood. --- Before this, only the priest could go into the Holy of Holies on behalf of the people , --- but the shed blood of Jesus replaced the veil, and opened the Prayer room for all believers to pray directly to God in Jesus' name, acknowledging Jesus as our Savior.
　
Notice these statements:
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."
"What shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour."

--- When all the prophecies were fulfilled, Jesus said from the cross, "It is finished."
The result was immediate, the veil was torn down, and the Throne of God was open to all --- So sin, Satan, and death had been defeated.
Jesus said, --- "As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world." --- But from here on Jesus was no longer in the world.
And after the Resurrection and appearances on earth, Jesus ascended to heaven and was exalted to become the "High Priest in heaven after the order of Melchizedek."
Hebrews 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
(The second phase of redemption was completed.)

valiant · Oct 6, 2016

Quasar is in darkness and knows not where he goes because darkness has blinded his eyes

RBA238 · Oct 6, 2016

Placid said:

To continue from Post 892 with "The second phase of the redemption of man":
　
When Jesus began His Public Ministry, John was till preaching and baptizing, so they overlapped a little, but the crowds, who were 'prepared by John' began to follow Jesus because of the miracles they saw among them. --- As well as teaching, He fed the 5000 on the hillside, and healed the sick and cast out evil spirits. He raised the dead, including Lazarus in John 11, and comforted the people with His words.
　
--- Again it says in Matthew 4:
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.
24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.
25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan.
--- (That was the scene in Syria then, --- quite a contrast to today.) --- And at that time, "Great multiudes followed Him."
　
Jesus was the Manifestation of God on earth, and represented everything that God was. --- While Jesus had His own human intellect, He was also indwelt by the Holy Spirit who would speak through Him in wisdom and prophecy. --- So prophetic words, and the power to heal the sick and deliver from evil spirits, was the work of the Holy Spirit through Him.
--- Jesus was the FOCUS of all the people and they all wanted to see Him.
　
From His conception, He had the power of God in Him as it said in Luke 1:
34 And Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, seeing I do not know a man?
35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."
--- The Power of the Highest was the Word (Logos, the creative power of God.)
And Jesus would be CALLED, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the Messiah, and also, the Son of Man.
--- Jesus also had other names, some of which are listed, starting in John 9:
5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world."
10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, "Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved,
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."
　
12:23 (And then) Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified."
--- It was the Holy Spirit that spoke this prophetic sentence through Jesus, so it was not from the mind of Jesus, --- and it was after this prophecy, "The hour has come that the Son of man should be glorified." --- which meant His death, --- that Jesus said the next verse:
27 "Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour."
--- (It was after this realization that Jesus showed human emotion as he faced this hour.)
　
After the Last Supper with the disciples, when He asked them to pray with Him in the Garden --- it says in Luke 22:
41 And He was withdrawn from them about a stone’s throw, and He knelt down and prayed,
42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
43 Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him.

--- He said the words, "Father if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me" --- So the desire was there to change, or avoid, His prophesied 'death on the cross,' --- but in obedience, He said, --- "Nevertheless not My will, but Yours be done."
--- God did not change the situation, so He sent an angel to Jesus to strengthen Him. --- But it does say in the next verse:
44 And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
　
--- This is the evidence that Jesus was human and that He suffered human agony, in knowing what was coming. While Jesus' desire would have been to avoid fulfilling the prophecy, --- yet He submitted to God's will. --- It speaks of this suffering of Jesus also in Hebrews 5:
7 Who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, --- (God heard Him, but denied the request)
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of 'eternal salvation' to all who obey Him,
10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"
　
When the crucifixion was near its end, the last utterance must have been this, recorded in John 19:
30 Jesus said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
--- The Sacrifice was complete, and accepted.

Matthew records in 27:
51 "Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split."
--- The veil that separated the inner prayer room was removed so the Holy of Holies was open to all through the veil of His blood. --- Before this, only the priest could go into the Holy of Holies on behalf of the people , --- but the shed blood of Jesus replaced the veil, and opened the Prayer room for all believers to pray directly to God in Jesus' name, acknowledging Jesus as our Savior.
　
Notice these statements:
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."
"What shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour."

--- When all the prophecies were fulfilled, Jesus said from the cross, "It is finished."
The result was immediate, the veil was torn down, and the Throne of God was open to all --- So sin, Satan, and death had been defeated.
Jesus said, --- "As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world." --- But from here on Jesus was no longer in the world.
And after the Resurrection and appearances on earth, Jesus ascended to heaven and was exalted to become the "High Priest in heaven after the order of Melchizedek."
Hebrews 8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
(The second phase of redemption was completed.)

The "Right Hand of God" Or.."Jesus sits on The Right Hand of God" Signifies The eternal One Gods POWER Not a second or a third person

williamjordan · Oct 6, 2016

Quasar92 said:

The views I havfe expressed in 471 are crystal clear with no ambiguity whatever. If you don't agree with my views, that is your prerogative which I am not going to argue with you about. 471 is all fully supported by Scripture. Isa.45:5 and a number of other verses like it, clearly reveal Yahwey, God, who is the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus, is the one and only God in the OT. Though the pre-incarnate Jesus was the Firstborn over all creation and with Him in the beginning, before the universe was created, as recorded in Jn.17:5. and in Heb.1:2. And yes, I make no effort to keep up with the views of everyone else, unless I'm notified by email.

Quasar92

Again with the repetitiveness, and not actually handling the criticisms... just as I pointed out in the first few sentences.

williamjordan · Oct 6, 2016

Quasar92 said:

And yet again, you are unable to handle the criticisms. I have told you why you're interpretation is flawed, and you have yet to interact with it. You only read one phrase in Colossians 1.15 without reading it in its entirety. The hoti clause in the sentence puts quite the damper on your interpretation. Isn't it funny how you brag about having such better credentials than some of those who have responded to you, and yet here you resort to a dictionary.

I don't think you're fit enough to handle a conversation.

Quasar92 · Oct 7, 2016

valiant said:

<SNIP>

More meaningless opinion without a shred of Scriptural support to refute a single point I have posted!

Quasar92

bluto · Oct 7, 2016

Quasar92 said:

Now your being ridiculous quasar? What are you talking about when you say the title "Father" is added to the Holy Spirit and to the Son? And for the hundreth time, God the Father is "NOT" the "PERSON" of the Holy Spirit. John 4:24 says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship in spirit and truth." The point the Apostle John is making is the fact that God is a spiritual being, not that God is the person of the Holy Spirit.

This is proven by the fact that the last part of the verse tells us that man is suppose to worship this spiritual being by way of our spirit in truth. This is backed up by John 4:23, which says the same thing, "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH."

You really do have this bad habit quasar of taking verses (not only here) but in many other places and ripping them out of their context. The very fact I have to point this out means your not seeing it for yourself. And btw, I'm not the only one pointing this out, many others are as well. You also stated that you use to be a Trinitarian for 45 years and you got tired of trying to explain it because you did not understand it.

Did you ever read what the Apostle Peter said about the Apostle Paul at 2 Peter 3:16? "as also in his letters speaking of them of these things, IN WHICH SOME THINGS ARE HARD TO UNDERSTAND, WHICH THE UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE DISTORT, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." So you see quasar, just because things in the Bible are hard to understand does not mean their untrue.

I also noticed that your addressing a post that was for placid, which is fine but did you actually go to the verses I referenced and read them to show Jesus Christ is equal to God His Father and was accused of blasphemy for doing so resulting in His death on that cross? And as far as your last sentence is concerned, this to is "ridiculous." What I see you doing is making the Son a separate person from Jesus? The one person of Jesus Christ is both deity and human. Jesus has two natures, one on His Father's side and one on His mother's side.

There is "NOT" a human Son (that is named Jesus) that showed up as a human being at His incarnation and then a divine person named Jesus who is separate from the human Son Jesus? John 1:1 says that Jesus Christ is with God and is identified as God who became flesh/human at John 1:14. In short, no one is asking you to understand it, I don't understand it myself but I accept it because I am taking God at His word based on that is what He said.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

RBA238 · Oct 7, 2016

bluto said:

Now your being ridiculous quasar? What are you talking about when you say the title "Father" is added to the Holy Spirit and to the Son? And for the hundreth time, God the Father is "NOT" the "PERSON" of the Holy Spirit. John 4:24 says, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him MUST worship in spirit and truth." The point the Apostle John is making is the fact that God is a spiritual being, not that God is the person of the Holy Spirit.

This is proven by the fact that the last part of the verse tells us that man is suppose to worship this spiritual being by way of our spirit in truth. This is backed up by John 4:23, which says the same thing, "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH."

You really do have this bad habit quasar of taking verses (not only here) but in many other places and ripping them out of their context. The very fact I have to point this out means your not seeing it for yourself. And btw, I'm not the only one pointing this out, many others are as well. You also stated that you use to be a Trinitarian for 45 years and you got tired of trying to explain it because you did not understand it.

Did you ever read what the Apostle Peter said about the Apostle Paul at 2 Peter 3:16? "as also in his letters speaking of them of these things, IN WHICH SOME THINGS ARE HARD TO UNDERSTAND, WHICH THE UNTAUGHT AND UNSTABLE DISTORT, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction." So you see quasar, just because things in the Bible are hard to understand does not mean their untrue.

I also noticed that your addressing a post that was for placid, which is fine but did you actually go to the verses I referenced and read them to show Jesus Christ is equal to God His Father and was accused of blasphemy for doing so resulting in His death on that cross? And as far as your last sentence is concerned, this to is "ridiculous." What I see you doing is making the Son a separate person from Jesus? The one person of Jesus Christ is both deity and human. Jesus has two natures, one on His Father's side and one on His mother's side.

There is "NOT" a human Son (that is named Jesus) that showed up as a human being at His incarnation and then a divine person named Jesus who is separate from the human Son Jesus? John 1:1 says that Jesus Christ is with God and is identified as God who became flesh/human at John 1:14. In short, no one is asking you to understand it, I don't understand it myself but I accept it because I am taking God at His word based on that is what He said.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Bluto..I cannot beleive this..I agree with what you posted here regarding "The Father" and "The Son"..Good Job bro!

Placid · Oct 7, 2016

To continue from Post 910 with "The third phase of the redemption of man."
　
After Jesus had obtained victory over: --- Sin, Satan, and death, it was important to teach the Jews what the Sacrifice meant, and how they must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, as Peter said in Acts 4:
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’
12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
--- So we are saved by Faith in God and our acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord., --- and our entrance to the Kingdom of heaven is through Jesus Christ, as 'there is no other name given among men by which we must be saved.'
　
--- Jesus said, "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world," --- but Jesus also taught the disciples who became Apostles, in Matthew 5:
14 "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."
--- So the continuing work of spreading the Gospel was given to the Apostles for the next, and continuing generations.

So, who was Christ, without Jesus? --- Was He Emmanuel? --- (Named in Matthew 1:23)
Yes, while Jesus was called Savior, --- Christ meant Messiah, Immanuel, 'God with us.' So with the dual name 'Jesus Christ,' came dual meanings.
Now it is interesting how God was with 'them' in the person of Christ, but it says in 2 Corinthians 5:
19 That is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
--- So Christ had a role to play in this 'third phase of the redemption of man.'
It doesn't say that 'God was in Jesus', --- but in Christ, who representing the Word, --- and Christ and the Holy Spirit, were indwelling Jesus.
　
While Christ was with Jesus through the Gospels, they shared everything, It was the "Blood of Jesus" that had to be shed for the sins of the world, --- but it speaks of the 'blood of Jesus,' and 'the blood of Christ' both, to show their close relationship.
--- It speaks of both Jesus and Christ rising from the dead.

However, it wasn't till the sacrifice was made, of Jesus' blood being drained out of His body, --- His death, --- and the veil of the Temple being torn down, --- and the New Temple being opened in heaven, where Jesus became our heavenly High Priest, --- that Christ had the authority to fulfill His role.
　
In the letters of Paul the names were often reversed from Jesus Christ, to Christ Jesus, with Christ having the pre-eminence.
THE FOCUS WAS NOW ON CHRIST, --- and it makes a comparison of Christ as the head of the Church, in verses like 1 Cotinthians 11:
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Ephesians 5:
23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.
24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
　
And there are many teaching verses that show His new role in relationship to God, as it said in Colossians 2:
6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
9 For in Him (Christ) dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
　
Where was Christ given this authority over principality and power? --- It was in Daniel 7:
13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
　
And it says this very thing in 1 Corinthians 15:
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all (who believe) shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He (Christ) must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, --- THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.
　
Ephesians 2:
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
　
And again in Collosians 3:
1 "If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind and affections on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory."
--- So we all look forward to the return of Christ, do we not?
　
And Paul said in Philillians 1:21 "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

Placid

bluto · Oct 7, 2016

So placid, I'm still waiting for you to address the following post?

No placid, I am "NOT" following the Catholic model, I'm following what the Bible cearly says and teaches. I gave you verse that each person of the Trinity is identified as God, long before the RCC showed up. And yes, the persons of the trinity are equal. Why do you think the Jews wanted to crucify Jesus Christ for the crime of blasphemy?

Please read John 5:17,18, John 8:56-58, John 10:30-37, John 19:7, and read the trial transcript at Matthew 26:59-67. I want you to notice what is the common theme in all these verses? Got to run!

Remember placid, you deny the deity of Jesus Christ and what I'm trying to explain to you is the fact that the Bible teaches the deity of Jesus Christ and one of the ways the Bible does this can be proved by the set of verses I gave you to read, showing that Jesus Christ is indeed equal to His Father.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

valiant · Oct 7, 2016

RBA238 said:

Jesus calls Himself 'the Son' constantly in contrast with 'the Father'.

Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

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