Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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New Zealand
I forgot to say that we are created in His image. 3 in 1

I agree with three in one :)

Co-equal, co- eternal, Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God.

Also like ice, water and steam.

I am saying though.. God is one triune being. Not that there are three seperate beings that are somehow 'God' in parenthesis.

A mind, body and soul.. exists in one being.
 

Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
316
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Hi Wattie,
 
Quote from Post 877:
Again.. if you seperate Jesus.. the Holy Spirit and the Father into seperate spiritual beings..

You have Polytheism.
 
Response: --- I see you are trying to make a trinity, but the three witnesses in heaven who were in perfect union were: --- God the Father, --- the Word (Logos, the creative power of God), --- and the Holy Spirit, --- not three gods to worship.
--- You see, Jesus was not one of them. --- And we are taught in the Scripture to worship God only.
 
There was another Personage that came from heaven to earth that was also not part of the Godhead, and that was Christ. --- And this is what it says in Colossians 2:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, --- and not according to Christ.
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

'Beware lest anyone cheat you, or deceive you through the TRADITION OF MEN.' --- If you acknowledge that the concept and language of trinity is not found in Scripture, but came from men, in the newly formed Roman Catholic Church, on the orders of the Emperor Constantine, --- then you can see that the trinity, which is not found in Scripture, came from men, and has become the TRADITION OF MEN.

--- But we are to live by the principles of Christ. --- Christ came from heaven, --- but Jesus was born on earth. --- Christ was to represent the Godhead in bringing the world back to God, --- He had no authority to do that until Jesus died on the cross, and was glorified. --- then the focus was on Christ.
--- If you notice that Jesus was the focus of attention as God's Representative through the Gospels, and He said in John 9:
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
--- But at the death of Jesus, the veil of the temple was torn down in Matthew 27:
50 "And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; "
--- This opened the Holy of Holies for all people to pray directly to God, --- and Jesus became 'our High Priest in heaven after the order of Melchizedek.'
 
Nothing could happen to redeem us to God until Jesus' blood was shed, because "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission." Hebrews 9:22.
There were three phases of our redemption, and those that only see trinity never understand God's plan of salvation. --- So it may be helpful to present them for you and others to consider.
 
 
T

Tintin

Guest
I agree with three in one :)

Co-equal, co- eternal, Jesus is God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God.

Also like ice, water and steam.

I am saying though.. God is one triune being. Not that there are three seperate beings that are somehow 'God' in parenthesis.

A mind, body and soul.. exists in one being.
Analogies really don't work when describing the Triune nature of God. That makes God rather tricky to describe. But then if we could describe God perfectly, we wouldn't be human (fallen or no).
 
Aug 19, 2016
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Hi Wattie,
 
Quote from Post 877:
Again.. if you seperate Jesus.. the Holy Spirit and the Father into seperate spiritual beings..

You have Polytheism.
 
Response: --- I see you are trying to make a trinity, but the three witnesses in heaven who were in perfect union were: --- God the Father, --- the Word (Logos, the creative power of God), --- and the Holy Spirit, --- not three gods to worship.
--- You see, Jesus was not one of them. --- And we are taught in the Scripture to worship God only.
 
There was another Personage that came from heaven to earth that was also not part of the Godhead, and that was Christ. --- And this is what it says in Colossians 2:
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, --- and not according to Christ.
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

'Beware lest anyone cheat you, or deceive you through the TRADITION OF MEN.' --- If you acknowledge that the concept and language of trinity is not found in Scripture, but came from men, in the newly formed Roman Catholic Church, on the orders of the Emperor Constantine, --- then you can see that the trinity, which is not found in Scripture, came from men, and has become the TRADITION OF MEN.

--- But we are to live by the principles of Christ. --- Christ came from heaven, --- but Jesus was born on earth. --- Christ was to represent the Godhead in bringing the world back to God, --- He had no authority to do that until Jesus died on the cross, and was glorified. --- then the focus was on Christ.
--- If you notice that Jesus was the focus of attention as God's Representative through the Gospels, and He said in John 9:
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
--- But at the death of Jesus, the veil of the temple was torn down in Matthew 27:
50 "And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; "
--- This opened the Holy of Holies for all people to pray directly to God, --- and Jesus became 'our High Priest in heaven after the order of Melchizedek.'
 
Nothing could happen to redeem us to God until Jesus' blood was shed, because "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission." Hebrews 9:22.
There were three phases of our redemption, and those that only see trinity never understand God's plan of salvation. --- So it may be helpful to present them for you and others to consider.
 


eview 471 on pge 24, for the Biblical Description of Go0d and origin of Jesus. Where the Scriptures reveal, God is the Holy Spirit AND Father, His title, one person, not two. The alteration of Mt.28:19 and additive of 1 Jn.5:7 is another factor in throwing people off, trying to convince them that God is triune. Be fully aware of the fact that neither the Bible, Jesus, nor His disciples ever taught the Trinity.


Quasar92
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,103
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[SUP][SUP]What big guns can you muster from the empty wagon you are using, bluto!
[/SUP][/SUP]
[SUP][SUP]Rev.1:8 [/SUP]“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” This is the statement of YHWH, not of Yahshua!
[/SUP]
[SUP]J[/SUP][SUP]n.8:28 "[/SUP]So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

Jn.14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

[SUP]Jn.17:33 "[/SUP]Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Review my post 471 for the Scriptural facts!


Quasar92
It's really remarkable qusar how Biblically uninformed you are. I gave you rock solid proof that Jesus Christ is identified as "God Almighty" from Revelation 1:8 and you say it's not true. Only God the Father is identified as God Almighty. What your doing is denying the the truth and resting on two "laurels," one you 92 years old and two, questioning everyones qualifications because they may not have gone to a school or received some sort of degree. None of that means you know or understand the Bible better than someone else. Your downfall is your "pride."

So again, getting back to Revelation 1:8 Jesus Christ is clearly identified as God the Almighty according to the context. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
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Meaningless opinion without a shred of Scriptural support is worthless.
Perhaps you do not see John as a quotation? How much else of the New Testament do you ignore.? Oh of course, most if it lol

Where did you obtain your qualifications to teach the Bible?
An advanced theological degree in Theology from London University, one of the three best universities in the uk, Ivy League equivalent. Not a tinpot american bible school.

What I previously posted remains as qualified eschatology, exegesis and hermeneutics!


Quasar82
what you originally posted is heretical, based on misinterpretation and error. The only thing qualified about it is your ability or lack thereof to interpret.
 
Aug 19, 2016
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It's really remarkable qusar how Biblically uninformed you are. I gave you rock solid proof that Jesus Christ is identified as "God Almighty" from Revelation 1:8 and you say it's not true. Only God the Father is identified as God Almighty. What your doing is denying the the truth and resting on two "laurels," one you 92 years old and two, questioning everyones qualifications because they may not have gone to a school or received some sort of degree. None of that means you know or understand the Bible better than someone else. Your downfall is your "pride."

So again, getting back to Revelation 1:8 Jesus Christ is clearly identified as God the Almighty according to the context. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto


Your above is the epitome of Scriptural ignorance! Where did you obtain the qualifications to teach the Bible and to be telling those who have them, they are uninformed? Jesus is not now, nor ever was Almighty God. Rev.1:8 speaks of he Father, not Jesus. Read Jn.8:28! See also:


Rev.21:22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


Quasar92
 
Aug 19, 2016
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Perhaps you do not see John as a quotation? How much else of the New Testament do you ignore.? Oh of course, most if it lol



An advanced theological degree in Theology from London University, one of the three best universities in the uk, Ivy League equivalent. Not a tinpot american bible school.



what you originally posted is heretical, based on misinterpretation and error. The only thing qualified about it is your ability or lack thereof to interpret.


As I stated previously, you post meqaningless opinion without a shred of Scriptural support. Then since you come from an empty wagon, you attack your opponent! Now let me see you prove any part of 471 is false, with proper Scriptural support. And you can cut out blowing your horn bout the superiority of UK training over those located in the U.S. As a WWII vet, I have a clear memory of picking the cherries of the UK out of the fire!


Quasar92
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,103
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Your above is the epitome of Scriptural ignorance! Where did you obtain the qualifications to teach the Bible and to be telling those who have them, they are uninformed? Jesus is not now, nor ever was Almighty God. Rev.1:8 speaks of he Father, not Jesus. Read Jn.8:28! See also:


Rev.21:22And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


Quasar92
Oh please quasar, apparently your the one that is "Biblically" ignorant because here is what Acts 4:13 says, "Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John, and understood THAT THEY WERE UNEDUCATED AND UNTRAINED MEN, they were marvling, and began to recognize them AS HAVING BEEN WITH JESUS."

Those are my qualifications as well even though I told you in another post I attended Biola Bible College for three years but did not graduate for reasons that are none of your business. But more importantly than one's qualifications is knowing your Bible which you fail miserably at. Revelation 1:8 refers both to the Father and the Son on the basis of the context. God the Father is "NOT" the person who is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him/Jesus." (Revelation 1:7).

And look at Revelation 1:17,18, "And when I say Him/Jesus, (remember God the Father cannot be seen) I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, (does God the Father have hands quasar?) Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

Now, crossreference the above with Revelation 4:8 where it clearly says, "Holy, Holy, Holy, the Lord God Almighty, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME." Again quasar, it's God the Son who is the one coming again (after the tribulation I might add) not God the Father. Please, wake up! :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
H

Hawkins

Guest
John 20:28-29 (NIV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Jesus didn't stop or correct Thomas. If Jesus is not God the Son, then He's not honest and even blasphemous. Yet Jesus didn't sin. So He must be God the Son.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
126
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As I stated previously, you post meqaningless opinion without a shred of Scriptural support.

Here is part of my shred of Scriptural support :

Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23


“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26


Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18


“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58


Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9


“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)


John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).


The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19


And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)


He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15


In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9


Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13


When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6


In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).


Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3


He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.


Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28


Then since you come from an empty wagon, you attack your opponent!
You are arrogant and unworthy of even being connected with the LORD Jesus Christ.


Now let me see you prove any part of 471 is false, with proper Scriptural support.
I have done so.

And you can cut out blowing your horn bout the superiority of UK training over those located in the U.S. As a WWII vet, I have a clear memory of picking the cherries of the UK out of the fire!
What has that to do with the superiority of a major university over a pathetic little bible college?

And I remember clearly that the English drove out the Germans, then the US marched into the taken town pretending they had taken them. You were no doubt one of them All show and no fighting

It figures!
 
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Placid

Senior Member
Sep 27, 2016
316
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The first phase of the redemption of man:

It began with the Prophetic Announcement of John the Baptist, in Isaiah 40:
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Prepare the way of the Lord;
5 The glory of the Lord shall be revealed, And all flesh shall see it together; For the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
--- And in Mathew 3:
1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,
2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"
3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight.’"
4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him
6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
Notice his popularity and the response to his preaching. --- ALL went out to him, --- and WERE BAPTIZED, and CONFESSED THEIR SINS.
This was the first NT revival which turned the hearts of the people back to God.
It says again by prophecy in Malachi 4:
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
--- And this was spoken to Zecharias by the angel Gabriel in Luke 1:
16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.
17 He will also go before Him (Jesus) in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
--- Then after John's birth, Zecharias spoke by the Holy Spirit in Luke 1:
76 "And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest; For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,
77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins,
78 Through the tender mercy of our God, With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us;
79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, To guide our feet into the way of peace."
 
John the Baptist said about his ministry in Matthew 3:
11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
 
And again in the Gospel of John 1:
29 John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"
35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. (Andrew and John.)
36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God!"
37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, "What do you seek?"
They said to Him, "Rabbi" (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), "where are You staying?"
39 He said to them, "Come and see." They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour).
40 One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother.
41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which is translated, the Christ).
42 And he brought him (Simon Peter) to Jesus.
 
Then when Jesus came on the scene, --- the disciples asked John about Him, in John 3:
27 John answered and said, "A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.
28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’
29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease." --- (This is the end of the first phase.)
Placid
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,103
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Hi placid! You said this: "Actually since I wrote in Post 801 that 'none of the language of trinity is in the Bible,' you couldn't have read it there." Your right, none of the language of the trinity is in the Bible." You also quoted this statement: "Quote: "All things necessary for our faith and life are either expressly set down in Scripture or may be deduced by good and necessary consequence from Scripture." followed by this statement of yours, "That means men added to the doctrine what they want the Scripture to say.)

That is not true and yes, you can deduce the Trinity teaching from Scripture. It's called in logic, "Deductive and Inductive" reasoning. This is what I used to support the teaching that in the Bible God the Father is identified as God, the Son of God Jesus Christ is identified as God in the Bible and so is the Holy Spirit identified as God in the Bible.

The following syllogism is a deduction of reasoning from the Bible that the trinity is true.

The Bible is clear in teaching there is ONE GOD.

The Bible is also clear that God the Father is identified as God. 1 Peter 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father."

The Bible is clear that the Son of God Jesus Chirst is also identified as God. John 1:1, Titus 2:13, Romans 9:5, John 20:20 and many others.

The Bible is clear that the Holy Spirit is identified as God. Acts 5:3,4, "But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? Vs4, While it remained unsold did it not remain your own? YOU HAVE NOT LIED TO MEN BUT TO GOD."

So placid, by deducing threee true premises from the Bible itself the conclusion is the fact that the trinity is true and a valid teaching. There are lots of teachings in the Bible that are true by using either deductive or inductive reasoning. In fact, the Bible never uses the word, "omniscient" which means God is all knowing or knows all things. Furthermore, I just gave you a verse above when I quoted 1 Peter 1:2, "according to the "FOREKNOWLEDGE" of God the Father." That word "foreknowledge" means God is omniscient or He knows all things even though the word "omniscient" is not in the Bible.

You also used the word "University" which I never used to demonstrate a word of convience. And why should I care that the Muslims say Jesus Christ is not God? The Unitarians say that, the JW's say it, the Chritadelphians say it, Christian Science say it, Oneness Pentecostals say it and a host of other groups that deny the deity of Jesus Christ. In short, the Catholics are right when they say, "Unless you believe that Jesus is God you cannot be saved."

You also said, "There are either the Three in heaven in perfect union, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit" I could not agree more and this unity can be found in the Bible, I'll give you two places, one in the Old Testament at Genesis 1:26 and one in the New Testament at Matthew 28:19. I can if you want provide more proof of the unity within the Godhead. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
R

RBA238

Guest
Uh oh rba! It's interesting that you should bring up Genesis 18 so here is my question? Genesis 18:1 says the Lord appeard to him/Abraham and then you say this is a "Theophany" even though you "Theopony." Is it possbile that this appearance could have been a "Christophany?" I say that because according to Jesus Christ Himself He said at John 5:37, "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form." Here Jesus says God the Father cannot be seen.

Then there is John 6:46, "Not that any man hath seen the Father, except He who is from God, He hath seen the Father. One more, John 1:18, "No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." In other words rba, Jesus Christ is the only visble/human manifestation of God the Father because the Father cannot physically be seen. And I'm saying it was Jesus Christ who appeared to the Old Testament saints as the angel of the Lord. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Ok, let's dissect what you stated..1st Jesus Christ never existed until he was Born through Mary, So God in a Human Form as in Genesis 18 was an "Instant Manifestation " of The Unseen Eternal Spirit, a Theopony is what it is/was.Melchesedec "The High Priest of Salem
(Jerusalem) was another Theopony of God. Since noone can ever look upon God in Spirit form, he used the Instant Human covering at his will.
Now, The Angels are given the same power to be seen as a Theopony like God .

How can this be proven? Read this verse to see for yourself: Hebrews 13 verse 2: "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained ANGELS UNAWARES".
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,103
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Excuse me rba but why did Jesus say that God the Father cannot be seen at John 5:37 and at John 6:46. Secondly, as I said above that Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God the Father according to John 1:18. So how are you going to reconcile this contradictions of yours with the words of Jesus Christ? Thirdly, Jesus Christ did preexist His incarnation as the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament.

Read the context of Genesis 16 starting at vs7. "Now the angel of the Lord found her/Hagar by a spring of water in the silderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. vs9, Then the angel of the Lord said to her, Return to your mistress/Sarah, and submit yourself to her authority. Vs10, Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her. "I will greatly multiply your descendants so tha tthey shall be too many to count." At vs11 the angel of the Lord tells Hagar she is with child. At vs12 he tells her he will be a wild donkey of a man and his hand will be against everyone. And everyone's hand will be against him; and he will live east of his brothers." (Who do you think these people are rba?) I'll answer that later.

Here is what Hagar says at vs13, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou are a God who sees"; for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him/God." Now, look at the next chapter Genesis 17:1,2. "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I AM GOD ALMIGHTY; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

So tell me rba, is the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16 that will multiply Hagar's descendants the same being at Genesis 17 that claims to be God Almighty that will multiply Abraham's descendants? :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 
R

RBA238

Guest
Excuse me rba but why did Jesus say that God the Father cannot be seen at John 5:37 and at John 6:46. Secondly, as I said above that Jesus Christ is the physical manifestation of God the Father according to John 1:18. So how are you going to reconcile this contradictions of yours with the words of Jesus Christ? Thirdly, Jesus Christ did preexist His incarnation as the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament.

Read the context of Genesis 16 starting at vs7. "Now the angel of the Lord found her/Hagar by a spring of water in the silderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. vs9, Then the angel of the Lord said to her, Return to your mistress/Sarah, and submit yourself to her authority. Vs10, Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her. "I will greatly multiply your descendants so tha tthey shall be too many to count." At vs11 the angel of the Lord tells Hagar she is with child. At vs12 he tells her he will be a wild donkey of a man and his hand will be against everyone. And everyone's hand will be against him; and he will live east of his brothers." (Who do you think these people are rba?) I'll answer that later.

Here is what Hagar says at vs13, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou are a God who sees"; for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him/God." Now, look at the next chapter Genesis 17:1,2. "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I AM GOD ALMIGHTY; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

So tell me rba, is the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16 that will multiply Hagar's descendants the same being at Genesis 17 that claims to be God Almighty that will multiply Abraham's descendants? :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
Of Course a Spirit cannot be seen unless you beleive in Ghosts?? John 4 Verse 24: " GOD IS A SPIRIT, And those who worship him MUST WORSHIP HIM IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH"

JESUS is the visable manifestation of the invisable God...Read What Jesus told Apostle Philip; When Philip asked Jesus "SHOW US THE FATHER, AND IT SUFFICES US" John 14 verses
7-10. Jesus is the visable manifestation of the Unseen God in FLESH" The Difference between a Theopony and Jesus? Jesus came through a Flesh and Blood Woman...A Theopony is an instant Manifestation God created. not created through a Woman..
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
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That is a king sized piece of rationalizing. The Father is greater than the son, according to the Scriptures, period! As I previously posted. Jesus did not become the Son of God /God the Son until documented in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35.

[SUP]Jn.8:28 "[/SUP]So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me."

Jn.14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

[SUP]Jn.17:33 "[/SUP]Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Review my post 471 for the Scriptural facts


Quasar92
I have more than my fair share of issues with this. I see that a large majority of your posts contain repetitive information, but it doesn't appear that you ever address any criticisms, and to be quite honest... I don't think you can. At least, you have never addressed any criticism that I've raised, whether that be due to the fact that you have a lot of people addressing what you wrote and can't keep up with all of it, or due to the fact that there is no good response to offer and so you would dismiss an argument based on someone’s credentials.

You state in this post, as you have done elsewhere, that Jesus did not become the “Son of God/God the Son” until he was conceived. I think there is some ambiguity in the statement itself. If you mean by this (assuming He was divine prior to the incarnation) that Jesus did not technically become a Son until His birth then that’s one issue. However, if you mean that prior to His incarnation that Jesus was not divine and that he did not attain His divine status until the virgin birth then there are definite problems.

Assuming the latter view is what you mean then allow me to explain the primary issue I take with this. In Philippians 2, the picture of Christ’s humility begins with His existence “in the form of God,” which is prior chronologically to His entrance into the world at Bethlehem when he took “the form of a servant, being born (or ‘made’) in the likeness of men” (v. 7). This is the same picture John paints for us in John 1.1-14 (see my post here for the details). If Christ did not become divine until His conception then one must ask the question: In what way did Jesus humble Himself? Jesus “was rich, yet for your sake He became poor,” not the adverse. Whatever was His prior to the incarnation was in some sense greater than what He had attained during the conception.
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
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Quasar,

I have also read much of the post you directed me to, and I take issue with it as well.

For one, I think your interpretation of Colossians 1.15 is flawed. Allow me to explain.

When Paul speaks of Christ as the “Firstborn,” he is not depicting Christ as the first-created of God’s creations. Of course, “Firstborn,” as it is used throughout the Old Testament is often used in reference to the preeminence of an individual, and is clearly seen in the highly Messianic Psalm, in which David (who here is a typification of the coming Messiah, Jesus Christ), the youngest amongst the sons of Jesse (1 Sam 16.11-13), is described and appointed as God’s “firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89.27). It is Christ, as the Son of God, who is the “Firstborn” in the sense that He is the “heir” of all things, for everything that belongs to the Father also belongs to the Son (John 16.15, 17.10). As the “firstborn” is the heir to all of his father’s estate, so too is Christ the heir of all the Heavenly Father’s estate, namely, all of creation (Col 1.15, Heb 1.2, Psalm 2.7-8).

We could discuss partitive genitives (“one of the students of the class”), or genitives of subordination (“King over Israel”) and its correlative analogous genitive (“King of Israel”), but because it is possible to understand this phrase as a partitive genitive in light of Orthodoxy (in light of the incarnation, the man Christ is most supreme, the most preeminent of all creation), I would instead like to direct attention to the preposition found in v. 16, ὅτι (“He is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, because…”), because our understanding of the subsequent things that Paul has to say is key to understanding what he meant by referring to Christ as “Firstborn of all creation.” The reason for Christ being called the “Firstborn of all creation” is “because all things were made in Him… through Him… and for Him.” This statement of course makes little or no sense if the phrase “Firstborn of all creation” is meant to mean that Christ is the first of God's creations. How is it that Christ is the first-created of all creation, because all things were created in, through, and for Him?

Of course, as most of us probably know, the Watchtower has a way around this by the simple addition of the word "other" into v. 16. They argue, that because the word “all,” does not always mean “all without exception” that this somehow justifies the insertion of “other” into the text. In their attempt to be consistent, they have added “other” in a number of places throughout Colossians 1 (v. 16 [x2]; v. 17[x2]; v. 20[x1]) with exception to v. 18, and the one place it would counteract their theological motive, Colossians 1.15 (“the Firstborn of all creation”). Thus, in attempt to be consistent, they have actually become inconsistent in their application. Working through the remainder of the Book of Colossians also reveals this inconsistency.

In regards to the Witnesses, it seems strange that here at Colossians 1, Paul would suggest that it is “in,” and “through” Christ “all other things” came into existence, and turn right around in 1 Corinthians 8.6, and speak of “all things”within the created order as having their existence through Christ, particularly in light of the Father being the one “from whom are all things.” Of course, should one infer from 1 Corinthians 8.6 that through Christ “all other things” came into existence, then to remain consistent in application, they must also infer, that it is “from” the Father “whom are all other things.”

Moreover, when the expression τὰ πάντα ("all things") is used in the context of the created order, it , as Richard Bauckham has suggested (God Crucified: Monotheism and Christology, 32), “belongs to the standard rhetoric of Jewish monotheism, in which it constantly refers, quite naturally, to the whole of the created reality from which God is absolutely distinguished as its Creator, and Ruler,” i.e., Romans 11.36; 1 Cor 8.6; Ephesians 3.9; Heb 2.10; Gen 1.31; Neh 9.6; Eccl 3.11, 11.5; Job 8.3; Jer 10.16; 3 Macc 2.3; Wisdom 1.14, 9.1; Sirach 18.1, 23.20. Paul’s emphasis in the Christ-hymn upon the powers, the angelic agencies is circumstantial – it reflects Paul’s deliberate purpose and use of τὰ πάντα (v. 16).

Christ’s creation of “all things” serves as the sole basis of Him being “Firstborn of all creation.” If I were to say, “He is president of the United States, because he received the most votes,” the ground clause “because he received the most votes” modifies the predicate nominative “president” (giving the grounds for it) but does not contribute anything to the subordinate prepositional phrase “of the United States.” In fact, you could remove the subordinate prepositional phrase without issue, which again seems to indicate that there isn’t a link between it and the ground clause.

Whatever we take “Firstborn of all creation” to mean (and there are divergent views within Orthodoxy), it must be on the basis of Christ existing before, and creating all things as indicated in the ground clause, “because in Him all things in heaven and on earth were created.” This is elsewhere expressed throughout the NT, where the authority of the Creator over creation derives from the very act of creation itself (Revelation 4.11, Hebrews 2.8).
 
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bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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Why oh why rba, did you not address one word of my post in spite of the fact that your the one that brought up Genesis 18:1 where the Lord physically appeared to Abraham at the tent door? Even after I told you that Jesus Christ said at John 5:47, John 6:46 and for good measure I throw in 1 Timothy 6:16 and first John 4:12. To be sure that it is true that it was a "Theophany/Chirstophany" but not of God the Father but rather the angel of the Lord who is God the Son."

So what do you do instead addressing the verses I gave, you send me to John 14:9, where Jesus is teaching that He is indeed the physcial manifestation of God the Father, I agree with you. You then said this: "The Difference between a Theopony and Jesus? Jesus came through a Flesh and Blood Woman...A Theopony is an instant Manifestation God created. not created through a Woman.."

Since Jesus Christ is God what would prevent Him from appearing in the Old Testament before His incarnation, in view of the fact that Jesus said God the Father cannot be seen? So I will ask you again, "So tell me rba, is the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16 that will multiply Hagar's descendants the same being at Genesis 17 that claims to be God Almighty that will multiply Abraham's descendants? :eek:

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto
 
Aug 19, 2016
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Oh please quasar, apparently your the one that is "Biblically" ignorant because here is what Acts 4:13 says, "Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John, and understood THAT THEY WERE UNEDUCATED AND UNTRAINED MEN, they were marvling, and began to recognize them AS HAVING BEEN WITH JESUS."

Those are my qualifications as well even though I told you in another post I attended Biola Bible College for three years but did not graduate for reasons that are none of your business. But more importantly than one's qualifications is knowing your Bible which you fail miserably at. Revelation 1:8 refers both to the Father and the Son on the basis of the context. God the Father is "NOT" the person who is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him/Jesus." (Revelation 1:7).

And look at Revelation 1:17,18, "And when I say Him/Jesus, (remember God the Father cannot be seen) I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, (does God the Father have hands quasar?) Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, vs18, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

Now, crossreference the above with Revelation 4:8 where it clearly says, "Holy, Holy, Holy, the Lord God Almighty, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME." Again quasar, it's God the Son who is the one coming again (after the tribulation I might add) not God the Father. Please, wake up! :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Get this, bluto, I am not arguing that John is not describing Jesus in Rev.1 as you are assuming, at all! He is, without a shadow of a doubt! However, verse 8 is describing the Father, as Jesus NEVER described Himself as the Lord God almighty!

Rev.1:4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,

5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”So shall it be! Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev.4:8 also pertainws to the Father, not to Jesus!


I don't care how long you went to Biola, or whether you graduated or not, bluto. Aren't they in La Mirada. I'm a third generation native Californian and lived in Whittier for ten years.


Quasar92
 
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