Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[Stunnedbygrace]

whats more amazing, is how can someone who have experienced this love and forgiveness. Ever lose faith completely to the point, they do not even believe in Christ anymore.

Yes. I go one way, then another, as I clearly see the tension between verses. And then I come back to the fact that satan believes very deeply, that Christ exists. He doesn't just believe it - he knows it. And that to put your hand to the plow and turn back is to be not fit for the Kingdom. And yet, I trust Him that He will do whatever is good concerning me. And... I just have to accept the tensions and go to Him with them and let Him place me among them and wait for Him to show me more and give me more understanding.

I have gotten to a point where OSAS vs. NOSAS has actually become a...moot point to me. Because if He is ever ready to forgive, why do I need to concern myself with it. His mercies begin anew each morning. Why do I need to grab for something that He is ever ready to give as if I want it apart from Him, like a contract that ties His hands, even against unbelief and mistrust? I don't know if that came out clearly...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I don;t know. a thread yesterday, I answered as I read.. Then I hade like a whole page of nothing but me, It was odd.. lol

Oh thanks, you've been a big help...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh thanks, you've been a big help...

Thats cause I need help myself in this area

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes. I go one way, then another, as I clearly see the tension between verses. And then I come back to the fact that satan believes very deeply, that Christ exists. He doesn't just believe it - he knows it. And that to put your hand to the plow and turn back is to be not fit for the Kingdom. And yet, I trust Him that He will do whatever is good concerning me. And... I just have to accept the tensions and go to Him with them and let Him place me among them and wait for Him to show me more and give me more understanding.

I have gotten to a point where OSAS vs. NOSAS has actually become a...moot point to me. Because if He is ever ready to forgive, why do I need to concern myself with it. His mercies begin anew each morning. Why do I need to grab for something that He is ever ready to give as if I want it apart from Him, like a contract that ties His hands, even against unbelief and mistrust? I don't know if that came out clearly...

I will be honest, I hate the argument also..

I just have to go with the knowledge that as with David, God knew me intimately before I was concieved. And when I asked him to save me, knowing everything I would do from that point forward.. all my sin, all my unbelief, all my rebellion. all my dirt. He said yes.. because he loved me.

to me, this is the heart of the gospel. and the faith rest life. God saved my not only knowing what I did (he died while I was his enemy) but what I have yet to do.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have to go for a bit and I am not pleased about it!
Looking forward to coming back to hear what else is said!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I will be honest, I hate the argument also..

I just have to go with the knowledge that as with David, God knew me intimately before I was concieved. And when I asked him to save me, knowing everything I would do from that point forward.. all my sin, all my unbelief, all my rebellion. all my dirt. He said yes.. because he loved me.

to me, this is the heart of the gospel. and the faith rest life. God saved my not only knowing what I did (he died while I was his enemy) but what I have yet to do.

Race like the wind, EG! Race to believe and trust Him more and more. Lay aside what lies behind and press forward and race to grab the very thing you have been apprehended FOR. Just race in the race He has set before us and race joyfully and trustingly. Even the trials and tests of faith/trust He sets are meant to make us stronger in the race! He made them become very thirsty in the desert...to see what they would do!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have to go for a bit and I am not pleased about it!
Looking forward to coming back to hear what else is said!

Be safe sis!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Race like the wind, EG! Race to believe and trust Him more and more. Lay aside what lies behind and press forward and race to grab the very thing you have been apprehended FOR. Just race in the race He has set before us and race joyfully and trustingly. Even the trials and tests of faith/trust He sets are meant to make us stronger in the race! He made them become very thirsty in the desert...to see what they would do!!

Yes,And to make them stronger, and rely on him more.. because they know he has their backs.

 

[Chester]

I have to go for a bit and I am not pleased about it!
Looking forward to coming back to hear what else is said!

Too bad! I show up and you are gone! But I am having to sneak in and out because I have been warned about a possible kidnap attempt!

I must say the conversation since I had to leave last night has been quite intriguing, exhilarating, and yet inobtusively revelatory. I haven't been able to catch up yet with the drift and have limited time today.

See you later . . .

 

[eph610]

I liked that post too. My mind then asks, so does the Precious Blood cover even unbelief? It's a deeper question than it first appears to be.

This goes back to when Jesus talked about the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost.

The topical view is what the Bible says, that Jesus said this tot eh pharisees, because they said he did miracles because he had a devil, or that they were done by the power of the a devil.

Now some will say that was for back then and that this SIN is not applicable to us today.

I disagree because while Jesus was telling the Pharisees this, they had no idea who the Holy Ghost was, because he had not been given yet.....

So at first blush the unpardonable sin is attributing the works of the Holy Ghost to the works of demons/devils....It's deeper though....It goes directly to the heart of unbelief. The Pharisees said Jesus did his miracles by power of a devil, so they were simply stating the did not belief Jesus was doing miracles by God.

So the one sin that is not ever going to be forgiven is UNBELIEF......Jesus also stated that if you cannot forgive others, he cannot and will not forgive you...WHY? Because if you cannot forgive someone, it means you really do not believe God through the complete and finished work of Jesus Christ at the Cross, really forgave you.

Denying Jesus in any area in your life, essentially means that you do not believe he has access, right or ability to that area of your life.

Total surrender is not required at conversion, nor is it required to "stay" saved....Surrender is an ongoing process of growing your belief....the error is that some do not believe any kind of surrender is not needed at any point in your walk....and that saving grace carries you and you can live like hell with no surrender and no growth....


If the object of your salvation is a get of Lake of Fire free card and not to become Christ like more and more each day, through surrendering yourself to him and to manifest the Kingdom of God, then you have been sold a bill of greasy gracey goods....

Either you abide or you do not abide.....there is no middle ground...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This goes back to when Jesus talked about the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost.

The topical view is what the Bible says, that Jesus said this tot eh pharisees, because they said he did miracles because he had a devil, or that they were done by the power of the a devil.

Now some will say that was for back then and that this SIN is not applicable to us today.

I disagree because while Jesus was telling the Pharisees this, they had no idea who the Holy Ghost was, because he had not been given yet.....

So at first blush the unpardonable sin is attributing the works of the Holy Ghost to the works of demons/devils....It's deeper though....It goes directly to the heart of unbelief. The Pharisees said Jesus did his miracles by power of a devil, so they were simply stating the did not belief Jesus was doing miracles by God.

So the one sin that is not ever going to be forgiven is UNBELIEF......Jesus also stated that if you cannot forgive others, he cannot and will not forgive you...WHY? Because if you cannot forgive someone, it means you really do not believe God through the complete and finished work of Jesus Christ at the Cross, really forgave you.

Denying Jesus in any area in your life, essentially means that you do not believe he has access, right or ability to that area of your life.

Total surrender is not required at conversion, nor is it required to "stay" saved....Surrender is an ongoing process of growing your belief....the error is that some do not believe any kind of surrender is not needed at any point in your walk....and that saving grace carries you and you can live like hell with no surrender and no growth....


If the object of your salvation is a get of Lake of Fire free card and not to become Christ like more and more each day, through surrendering yourself to him and to manifest the Kingdom of God, then you have been sold a bill of greasy gracey goods....

Either you abide or you do not abide.....there is no middle ground...

I think this is where the confusion is..

as for the unpardonable sin, They had committed the sin of calling the HS a liar and attributing his work to Satan, Yet Jesus said they were in danger of committing that sin.

we were all born in this state, that will be the state we will be in on judgment day if we have not repented and trusted in Christ.

there is a very good possibility that saul was there, and he also said these things. Yet saul repented and became Paul, and we know the rest of that story.

as for giving every are of our life. I think people mean different, or I hope. To me, If I gave every area of my life to God, I would be sinless. The fact I still sin, and still struggle in areas, proves I have not given every area over to CHrist, In fact, No one, so when one says that is a requirement, I must wonder, how can anyone be saved? because all sin.

 

[eph610]

for entering rest yes, For salvation. no. If we are faithless. he is faithful, he can not deny himself.
.

[/QUOTE]

EG, I see you and gr8grace always standing on 2 Tim 2.13

Could you please explain your use of this verse in regards to eternal security?

You seem to imply and I am probably wrong, that this verse is telling us that even if we do not have personal faith to believe what he did for us, his own faith in what he did on the cross is enough to save us, because if he let us die in SIN he would be made a liar....so since he cannot deny himself, all are saved with or without personal belief...

 

[PennEd]

I liked that post too. My mind then asks, so does the Precious Blood cover even unbelief? It's a deeper question than it first appears to be.

Jesus' precious blood covers all sin except the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which many commentators, myself included, equate to a final and complete unbelief, and rejection, in Jesus Christ as Savior. But I think there are other areas of unbelief in our lives that Jesus' blood absolutely covers.

Have blessed day sister!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, I see you and gr8grace always standing on 2 Tim 2.13

Could you please explain your use of this verse in regards to eternal security?

You seem to imply and I am probably wrong, that this verse is telling us that even if we do not have personal faith to believe what he did for us, his own faith in what he did on the cross is enough to save us, because if he let us die in SIN he would be made a liar....so since he cannot deny himself, all are saved with or without personal belief...

we have to take the Verse in context.

Paul is talking to a group of people "we" if we are to believe that he is talking to all born again children of God. That faith in God was already in place. And that is why we were forgive of our sin, and adopted as his children to begin with. (it also means so much more, but that we will leave for another time)

What it also means is that a person who has not yet repented, Not yet come to saving faith, Is still dead in their sins, This passage does not apply to them, so under no context would we use this passage to apply to them

if we (those who were saved by faith already) become faithless..he is faithful.

Now. what does this mean is the question.

to me it means go back on his word Take his gift back, Remove our sinship. and make is dead again, needing to be born again again.. because it means God saved a person who had faith, But that faith was not real, or he did not know that person in the future would change his mind and repent back to the world (to the point they have no faith in God)

i hope this makes sense. If not just ask,,

 

[oyster67]

Yes. I go one way, then another, as I clearly see the tension between verses. And then I come back to the fact that satan believes very deeply, that Christ exists. He doesn't just believe it - he knows it. And that to put your hand to the plow and turn back is to be not fit for the Kingdom. And yet, I trust Him that He will do whatever is good concerning me. And... I just have to accept the tensions and go to Him with them and let Him place me among them and wait for Him to show me more and give me more understanding.

I have gotten to a point where OSAS vs. NOSAS has actually become a...moot point to me. Because if He is ever ready to forgive, why do I need to concern myself with it. His mercies begin anew each morning. Why do I need to grab for something that He is ever ready to give as if I want it apart from Him, like a contract that ties His hands, even against unbelief and mistrust? I don't know if that came out clearly...

Amen. That came out very clearly. That was elegant and eloquent.

 

[eph610]

I think this is where the confusion is..

as for the unpardonable sin, They had committed the sin of calling the HS a liar and attributing his work to Satan, Yet Jesus said they were in danger of committing that sin.

we were all born in this state, that will be the state we will be in on judgment day if we have not repented and trusted in Christ.

there is a very good possibility that saul was there, and he also said these things. Yet saul repented and became Paul, and we know the rest of that story.

as for giving every are of our life. I think people mean different, or I hope. To me, If I gave every area of my life to God, I would be sinless. The fact I still sin, and still struggle in areas, proves I have not given every area over to CHrist, In fact, No one, so when one says that is a requirement, I must wonder, how can anyone be saved? because all sin.

This is our disconnect EG, you believe total surrender is sinless-perfection and that is not at all what I have been saying or believe...total surrender is just that surrender...we are both vets, so think about it in those terms....if you surrender as a soldier does it mean you are then made perfect...God Forbid....it means you have to trust the higher authority to get your tail end back home....and believe that what you cannot see is working on your behalf to take back what the enemy took from you....and to recover you fully without harm....

I know many that have been told that there is no way a Child of God can ever totally surrender because that makes them sinless, that is hog wash....Paul totally surrendered and won many for Christ....

At its core the doctrine that says this resists total surrender because of faithless unbelief that God will do and complete the perfect work he started in you....entering into true rest is total surrender, not to become sinless-perfection, but to enter in empowering grace that will allow you to do in your spirit what you will never do in your flesh....

Entering into true rest is absolute complete faith in Jesus Christ and allowing the Holy Ghost to led you, guide you, mold you and make you into everything God called you to be....

If you state total surrender is sinless-perfection then the Bible as a whole is a LIE.....Many want to have the Damascus road encounter, but refuse to fall on the ground, they stay on the donkey...only by falling down will you ever get tto straight street....

It is at straight street, you get your sight back and with vision, becomes true revelation.....

You need to fall to the ground EG, he will catch you...many have gone through this part.....and many are better for it...

As much as I like you, it needs to be said....It is only Satan who tells us that total surrender, makes us sinless & perfect.....we will never be sinless-perfection, but we are told we have the mind of Christ and we are told to imitate him and you cannot do that without utter and complete and total surrender to him...people must fall so he can catch them...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is our disconnect EG, you believe total surrender is sinless-perfection and that is not at all what I have been saying or believe...total surrender is just that surrender...we are both vets, so think about it in those terms....if you surrender as a soldier does it mean you are then made perfect...God Forbid....it means you have to trust the higher authority to get your tail end back home....and believe that what you cannot see is working on your behalf to take back what the enemy took from you....and to recover you fully without harm....

I know many that have been told that there is no way a Child of God can ever totally surrender because that makes them sinless, that is hog wash....Paul totally surrendered and won many for Christ....

At its core the doctrine that says this resists total surrender because of faithless unbelief that God will do and complete the perfect work he started in you....entering into true rest is total surrender, not to become sinless-perfection, but to enter in empowering grace that will allow you to do in your spirit what you will never do in your flesh....

Entering into true rest is absolute complete faith in Jesus Christ and allowing the Holy Ghost to led you, guide you, mold you and make you into everything God called you to be....

If you state total surrender is sinless-perfection then the Bible as a whole is a LIE.....Many want to have the Damascus road encounter, but refuse to fall on the ground, they stay on the donkey...only by falling down will you ever get tto straight street....

It is at straight street, you get your sight back and with vision, becomes true revelation.....

You need to fall to the ground EG, he will catch you...many have gone through this part.....and many are better for it...

As much as I like you, it needs to be said....It is only Satan who tells us that total surrender, makes us sinless & perfect.....we will never be sinless-perfection, but we are told we have the mind of Christ and we are told to imitate him and you cannot do that without utter and complete and total surrender to him...people must fall so he can catch them...

I did fall to the ground

I am not sure if it was you or not. But someone said if I have failed to surrender to god in a part of my life, I will sin.

that is where it comes from.

That's why I hate using terms like surrender or total surrender when it comes to salvation. It should not even be mentioned, Did the person repent and does he have faith in God or not. That is all that matters.

 

[eph610]

we have to take the Verse in context.

Paul is talking to a group of people "we" if we are to believe that he is talking to all born again children of God. That faith in God was already in place. And that is why we were forgive of our sin, and adopted as his children to begin with. (it also means so much more, but that we will leave for another time)

What it also means is that a person who has not yet repented, Not yet come to saving faith, Is still dead in their sins, This passage does not apply to them, so under no context would we use this passage to apply to them

if we (those who were saved by faith already) become faithless..he is faithful.

Now. what does this mean is the question.

to me it means go back on his word Take his gift back, Remove our sinship. and make is dead again, needing to be born again again.. because it means God saved a person who had faith, But that faith was not real, or he did not know that person in the future would change his mind and repent back to the world (to the point they have no faith in God)

i hope this makes sense. If not just ask,,

let me chew on this and get back to you...

 

[eph610]

I did fall to the ground

I am not sure if it was you or not. But someone said if I have failed to surrender to god in a part of my life, I will sin.

that is where it comes from.

That's why I hate using terms like surrender or total surrender when it comes to salvation. It should not even be mentioned, Did the person repent and does he have faith in God or not. That is all that matters.

Make not mistake EG, I am not talking about total surrender as it relates to Salvation....That second comment was not from me....

A person can confess and have faith, but to repent means to change or turn away....we should stop saying repent when we mean confess.....

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This goes back to when Jesus talked about the unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Ghost.

The topical view is what the Bible says, that Jesus said this tot eh pharisees, because they said he did miracles because he had a devil, or that they were done by the power of the a devil.

Now some will say that was for back then and that this SIN is not applicable to us today.

I disagree because while Jesus was telling the Pharisees this, they had no idea who the Holy Ghost was, because he had not been given yet.....

So at first blush the unpardonable sin is attributing the works of the Holy Ghost to the works of demons/devils....It's deeper though....It goes directly to the heart of unbelief. The Pharisees said Jesus did his miracles by power of a devil, so they were simply stating the did not belief Jesus was doing miracles by God.

So the one sin that is not ever going to be forgiven is UNBELIEF......Jesus also stated that if you cannot forgive others, he cannot and will not forgive you...WHY? Because if you cannot forgive someone, it means you really do not believe God through the complete and finished work of Jesus Christ at the Cross, really forgave you.

Denying Jesus in any area in your life, essentially means that you do not believe he has access, right or ability to that area of your life.

Total surrender is not required at conversion, nor is it required to "stay" saved....Surrender is an ongoing process of growing your belief....the error is that some do not believe any kind of surrender is not needed at any point in your walk....and that saving grace carries you and you can live like hell with no surrender and no growth....


If the object of your salvation is a get of Lake of Fire free card and not to become Christ like more and more each day, through surrendering yourself to him and to manifest the Kingdom of God, then you have been sold a bill of greasy gracey goods....

Either you abide or you do not abide.....there is no middle ground...

See, but it's not as simple as that either. I have been in unbelief and mistrust in an area, but in firm belief in others. And yet, He never took His Spirit from me and still communed with me often. So I was abiding in some areas and not abiding in others. And not only that, I wasn't aware of the areas where I wasn't until He showed me. So there is an aspect to it also that...we aren't expected to walk by light we have yet to receive (I have many things to tell you but you are not ready to bear them yet), but I think we ARE required to walk by light we HAVE received.

And yet, walking by that light does not mean we have to perform a "work." We simply have to not hide from the light but have to see and admit the truth He has shown us about our mistrust and look for Him to then change us. In other words, just seeing the truth does not make us any more capable in ourselves - it just makes us more truthful.

We can't hide from light we haven't seen, but once we have seen it, we can either embrace the truth/light or we can refuse it because we don't like the way a glaring and harsh light makes us look.

I hope I've gotten my point across...He would never abandon me for not walking by light I am not yet able to bear. But what would He do if I just refused light He DID give me because I didn't like the way the light made me look? Because that is WHY it says people run from light/truth - it is because they do not want their evil deeds to be shown. But then you also have to take into account that He is patient because the one son originally said, no I will not do it, but then later, he did. And the father was pleased with that son.

You just begin to see that the word is seamless somehow because it goes on and on...