Two useless/inappropriate/wrong accusations

[Chester]

Personally I don't believe in the teaching as a whole about "surrendering" to God. I understand the concept behind the saying and the rational for saying it.

I think it is a by-product of not really hearing the true gospel of the grace of Christ.

The truth is that we have died and our life is hidden with Christ in God. The gospel is about an exchanged life - not a re-forming of morality principles or in striving to do things for God. We died with Jesus on the cross and we rose with Him too.

Does our behavior change now that we are in Christ and we are a new creation in Christ? Yes - it does but it stems and originates from the life of Christ which is already in us in Christ. We can't dictate or produce this change on our own.

We Christians see the words of the apostles in their writings about what the Christian life should look like and then try to "mandate or dictate" this way of life onto people without really preaching the gospel to them.

Paul always at the start of his letters told the people who they were in Christ - sanctified, loved, complete in Christ, they were the righteousness of God in Christ...etc. Then he explained to them what this Christian life looks like when it is being manifested "after" telling them about this exchanged life in Christ.

I firmly believe that if we preached the true gospel of the grace of Christ - people will walk in who they are in Christ - being completely dependent on the life of Christ in them for living. This "surrendering" thing will be automatic and un-conscious as we walk out who we already are in Him.

I hope I am articulating what I am seeing in my spirit. I am NOT saying that people do not follow the Lord with all their lives - I'm saying the complete opposite. He is our life - there is no other life for the Christian.

Reading this post about your view of "surrendering" -- Here are some musings . . .
(1) I am with you in that I don't really like the word "surrender" either - seen it misused too much
(2) I love what you say about the life of God hidden in us -- too often people miss this - don't get it!
(3) My "disconnect" comes when you say that "this surrendering thing will be automatic and unconscious as we walk out who we already are in Him" - Ouch, grind, grumble, rumble - my insides go!

Can you explain what you mean in #3?

Why do I react? I look at what I see in Christianity in America today - people who profess to be Christians (and they may be - I am not wanting to judge) but they live such mediocre lives and are no different in character or action from the unbelievers around them. They wind up living miserable lives themselves and causing unbelievers to react against Christianity because of hypocrites in the church.

To me Paul spends half of many of his books giving very practical instructions on how to live - if it was "automatic" he wouldn't need to do this.

Now, I sometimes say things like this: "If a person really gets the new life of Christ in them and believes in Jesus Christ and understands the gift of God then there will be results in how they live" -- Maybe you are saying the same thing but just in different words . . .

trying to understand???

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

While you may be right,, The english word does not mean the same, which causes I think alot of the confusion.

in the greek, The word means I have an assurance,,we even have an example in of abrahams, where it says he was fully assured God was able to do what he promised to do. and out of this faith, he was credited with righteousness.

This is different than just believing God was able to do it.. In James, the demons believed, And that was great, But they had no faith, which is why they were in their position to begin with, they did not believe in God and they followed satan.

as for repent, I agree 100 %

And now we're back full circle. Abraham was in full assurance that God could and would do what He said. But if there is an area of unbelief or mistrust, it means there is not full assurance that God can and will do all He has said. Use my earlier example of worrying about money, job, etc., vs. being told not to worry. If I was fully assured He would do what Jesus said He would, the worry would not be there. Ever. So I waver - full assurance, then I slip and worry some, then full assurance, etc. Doesn't make me feel good to admit my wavering but I'm being honest about my own struggles.

 

[Chester]

While you may be right,, The english word does not mean the same, which causes I think alot of the confusion.

in the greek, The word means I have an assurance,,we even have an example in of abrahams, where it says he was fully assured God was able to do what he promised to do. and out of this faith, he was credited with righteousness.

This is different than just believing God was able to do it.. In James, the demons believed, And that was great, But they had no faith, which is why they were in their position to begin with, they did not believe in God and they followed satan.

as for repent, I agree 100 %

Ah! It is making sense now!

You are right - if you look carefully at how the Greek word "pisteuo" is used and the cases of the nouns that follow the word it means different things in the context.

Quick explanation (I have to run again!)

In James I would say that the demons believed that God exists and is real, etc., but they have not believed "into" (Greek preposition) - that is they have not rested faith in God, or they have not rested their lives into Him.

So, I would say that the demons did have faith that God existed, but their faith did not rest in Him. (Or something like that!)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah! It is making sense now!

You are right - if you look carefully at how the Greek word "pisteuo" is used and the cases of the nouns that follow the word it means different things in the context.

Quick explanation (I have to run again!)

In James I would say that the demons believed that God exists and is real, etc., but they have not believed "into" (Greek preposition) - that is they have not rested faith in God, or they have not rested their lives into Him.

So, I would say that the demons did have faith that God existed, but their faith did not rest in Him. (Or something like that!)

I see what your saying.

I would say they did not have faith, they just believed, They were not fully assured God was good. Thus, when satan rebelled, they followed satan based on their unbelief (there is your biblical word translated in english belief) so I see it is confusing

it is the english though where the confusion comes in my mind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And now we're back full circle. Abraham was in full assurance that God could and would do what He said. But if there is an area of unbelief or mistrust, it means there is not full assurance that God can and will do all He has said. Use my earlier example of worrying about money, job, etc., vs. being told not to worry. If I was fully assured He would do what Jesus said He would, the worry would not be there. Ever. So I waver - full assurance, then I slip and worry some, then full assurance, etc. Doesn't make me feel good to admit my wavering but I'm being honest about my own struggles.

Thats why faith is better,, You have assurance (trust) that God will save you.

I do not think it takes 100 % faith to be saved, but a trust in God is required. not just mental agreement. (faith of a mustard seed)

it does not mean that faith does not waver, that is where Timothy comes in,, Paul is giving us encouragement to keep moving, even when we become faithless. Because God is always faithful to his word.

 

[eph610]

Excellent clear post here - you explain what you mean by total surrender - I think I would say it in very similar terms . I think EG has a somewhat different concept of "surrender".

The one part above that seems a little brusque to me is "It is only Satan who tells us that total surrender makes us sinless and perfect . . . " Maybe you are not saying this, but EG could take it to mean that you are saying he is listening to and believing Satan -- when I reality his view of "surrender" is because of what he has heard and experienced by the use of the word.

I think in a situation there are two things we should consider:
(1) Trying to understand one another's views/understandings of the term
(2) Then together trying to find out what the Biblical concept of the term is

(It probably helps very little to "look the word up in Websters!")

It has been my experience in the Lord, that any time a Child of God is told they cannot be something the Bible says they can be is coming from Satan....HE always lies, but always has a bit of the truth on the lie....

Regarding my statement about Satan, it is a lie and EG is right we will ever be sinless or perfect in our mind or our flesh, but the truth is that our spirit is made perfect and sinless at conversion....I am not attacking EG by stating this, but he does not believe this to be true, that is his view and it is fine. That said, it is also my experience that children of God that say this{ I am not stating EG believes this way] also do not believe the enemy really is after them, because they have grace and are saved and all is well....the true mark of spiritual maturity is not the visible signs of prosperity, empowering grace and rest, but the scars of the battles of Faith.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Thats why faith is better,, You have assurance (trust) that God will save you.

I do not think it takes 100 % faith to be saved, but a trust in God is required. not just mental agreement. (faith of a mustard seed)

it does not mean that faith does not waver, that is where Timothy comes in,, Paul is giving us encouragement to keep moving, even when we become faithless. Because God is always faithful to his word.

Yes, I agree. This is why I understand people who say it is a process. The mustard seed of faith gets watered with the word and with the experiences of truly living the word in experience and God grows it until it becomes a large and strong tree. I think He points out bitter roots/weeds that could grow up to choke out the life of the tree that is growing strong and we put our hand to the plow and tear up the seeds and roots of doubt that He points out. We just refuse the seed of doubt and don't give it any ground and we say, no, this is what He has said He will do and I believe Him. That very act IS the plowing (I think).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It has been my experience in the Lord, that any time a Child of God is told they cannot be something the Bible says they can be is coming from Satan....HE always lies, but always has a bit of the truth on the lie....

Regarding my statement about Satan, it is a lie and EG is right we will ever be sinless or perfect in our mind or our flesh, but the truth is that our spirit is made perfect and sinless at conversion....I am not attacking EG by stating this, but he does not believe this to be true, that is his view and it is fine.

Just to make it clear. I believe I am perfect and sinless at conversion.. (positionally) but I am in need of being sanctified (conditionally)

That said, it is also my experience that children of God that say this{ I am not stating EG believes this way] also do not believe the enemy really is after them, because they have grace and are saved and all is well....the true mark of spiritual maturity is not the visible signs of prosperity, empowering grace and rest, but the scars of the battles of Faith.

here we agree 100 %,

But not everyone will mature, Some (who are truly saved) may be so week in faith and so tore down, that they become faithless.. and are taken out. But I do not believe they lost salvation..

this of course is different than people who never had faith to begin with, but just played church, And left.. because they church did not give them what they thought it should have.

 

[Gr8grace]

But not everyone will mature, Some (who are truly saved) may be so week in faith and so tore down, that they become faithless.. and are taken out. But I do not believe they lost salvation..

This is the core issue and cuts to the chase.

 

[eph610]

Just to make it clear. I believe I am perfect and sinless at conversion.. (positionally) but I am in need of being sanctified (conditionally)



here we agree 100 %,

But not everyone will mature, Some (who are truly saved) may be so week in faith and so tore down, that they become faithless.. and are taken out. But I do not believe they lost salvation..

this of course is different than people who never had faith to begin with, but just played church, And left.. because they church did not give them what they thought it should have.

thanks for the clarifications....

 

[eph610]

But not everyone will mature, Some (who are truly saved) may be so week in faith and so tore down, that they become faithless.. and are taken out. But I do not believe they lost salvation..

Who took these people out and whose hands wear their blood?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who took these people out and whose hands wear their blood?

Be on the watch, For satan like a roaring lion, seeks who he may devour.

Satan uses people. religion, and other tactics to take people out. even if he is not personally involved.

Our flesh can also take us out. when we do not get involved in a body of believers and try to be lone wolf Christians.. or if we get involved in a church who is not rightely dividing the word of truth (has legalistic tendencies)

our friends and family can tear us down. The death of a loved one, a lost job, a failure to overcome a certain sin habit..

Many things can tear us down.

 

[Grace777x70]

Reading this post about your view of "surrendering" -- Here are some musings . . .
(1) I am with you in that I don't really like the word "surrender" either - seen it misused too much
(2) I love what you say about the life of God hidden in us -- too often people miss this - don't get it!
(3) My "disconnect" comes when you say that "this surrendering thing will be automatic and unconscious as we walk out who we already are in Him" - Ouch, grind, grumble, rumble - my insides go!

Can you explain what you mean in #3?

Why do I react? I look at what I see in Christianity in America today - people who profess to be Christians (and they may be - I am not wanting to judge) but they live such mediocre lives and are no different in character or action from the unbelievers around them. They wind up living miserable lives themselves and causing unbelievers to react against Christianity because of hypocrites in the church.

To me Paul spends half of many of his books giving very practical instructions on how to live - if it was "automatic" he wouldn't need to do this.

Now, I sometimes say things like this: "If a person really gets the new life of Christ in them and believes in Jesus Christ and understands the gift of God then there will be results in how they live" -- Maybe you are saying the same thing but just in different words . . .

trying to understand???

I would be happy to explain what I mean by #3 above as I see it.

We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror - 2 Cor. 3:17-18. This transformation is a passive occurrence ( as the Greek shows the word for "transformed" is in the passive voice - which means that something is being done to the person - not the person themselves doing it ).

This is similar to what happened to Moses when he was beholding God on the mountain - his face shined with the glory of the Lord and it transformed his face and the Israelites could see it ( Altho Moses' was fading - ours in Christ gets brighter - from glory to glory )

Also the same Greek word is used when Jesus was "transfigured" on the mountain and the glory of Him shone out for the disciples to see. This too was passive - which means that Jesus did not do it Himself - it was done to Him.

Jesus was manifesting outwardly what He already really was inside of Him - in His spirit where the Holy Spirit and the Father are too as One with Him.

Lastly the same Greek word was used in Romans 12:2 - be transformed by the renewing of our mind. This too is "passive".

This renewing of our mind involves the realities of Christ in us and all that He has done on the cross and resurrection - and the fact that we too died with Him on the cross and rose with Him to newness of life in the Spirit. - in our inner man in Christ - the new creation.

I maintain that the teaching about Christ brings about the grace and faith necessary to live the true Christian life and it all comes from being a manifestation of what already is in us because of our union with Christ as one spirit in the inner man in Christ.

I believe Peter walking on the water is a mini-version of what the true Christian life looks like - keeping our eyes on Jesus only and in obedience to Jesus' word "Come" - Peter was able to walk on water and he himself was able to do things that normally couldn't be done in the natural.

One last thing was when I looked at how Jesus responded to others - He was moved with compassion - this was a passive occurrence too that was manifesting the life that was in Him to help others. It was not a conscious decision to say " Ok, now I will heal someone".....it was a passive response from the life of love that was in Him.

I hope I was able to articulate what I am seeing.....

 

[eph610]

Be on the watch, For satan like a roaring lion, seeks who he may devour.

Satan uses people. religion, and other tactics to take people out. even if he is not personally involved.

Our flesh can also take us out. when we do not get involved in a body of believers and try to be lone wolf Christians.. or if we get involved in a church who is not rightely dividing the word of truth (has legalistic tendencies)

our friends and family can tear us down. The death of a loved one, a lost job, a failure to overcome a certain sin habit..

Many things can tear us down.

So whose hands wear their blood?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So whose hands wear their blood?

I will be honest and say I have no idea what you mean here.

 

[Chester]

I would be happy to explain what I mean by #3 above as I see it.

We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror - 2 Cor. 3:17-18. This transformation is a passive occurrence ( as the Greek shows the word for "transformed" is in the passive voice - which means that something is being done to the person - not the person themselves doing it ).

This is similar to what happened to Moses when he was beholding God on the mountain - his face shined with the glory of the Lord and it transformed his face and the Israelites could see it ( Altho Moses' was fading - ours in Christ gets brighter - from glory to glory )

Also the same Greek word is used when Jesus was "transfigured" on the mountain and the glory of Him shone out for the disciples to see. This too was passive - which means that Jesus did not do it Himself - it was done to Him.

Jesus was manifesting outwardly what He already really was inside of Him - in His spirit where the Holy Spirit and the Father are too as One with Him.

Lastly the same Greek word was used in Romans 12:2 - be transformed by the renewing of our mind. This too is "passive".

This renewing of our mind involves the realities of Christ in us and all that He has done on the cross and resurrection - and the fact that we too died with Him on the cross and rose with Him to newness of life in the Spirit. - in our inner man in Christ - the new creation.

I maintain that the teaching about Christ brings about the grace and faith necessary to live the true Christian life and it all comes from being a manifestation of what already is in us because of our union with Christ as one spirit in the inner man in Christ.

I believe Peter walking on the water is a mini-version of what the true Christian life looks like - keeping our eyes on Jesus only and in obedience to Jesus' word "Come" - Peter was able to walk on water and he himself was able to do things that normally couldn't be done in the natural.

One last thing was when I looked at how Jesus responded to others - He was moved with compassion - this was a passive occurrence too that was manifesting the life that was in Him to help others. It was not a conscious decision to say " Ok, now I will heal someone".....it was a passive response from the life of love that was in Him.

I hope I was able to articulate what I am seeing.....

Yes, that clarifies. And I agree - great job of explaining the passive words there -
The change that occurs in our lives is 100% the work of God - nothing that we can do ourselves.

What you do not say above is something we also discussed here recently is our part in the process - I forget how you said it - we work in partnership with God? No, I think you said it differently than that - but anyway you do hint at it above when you say about Peter - "keeping our eyes on Jesus only and in obedience to Jesus' word "Come". You also hint at when you say about II Cor. 3:17,18 - as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror - We do have a part in the transformation, and the paradox is that all "our doing" is not us, but the grace of God working in us.

I suppose you chafe at my sentence when I say "our doing" just like I chafe when you say it is "automatic and unconscious"!!

 

[eph610]

I will be honest and say I have no idea what you mean here.

Yeah I worded it pretty lousy....


Who is responsible for letting those people get taken out?

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes, that clarifies. And I agree - great job of explaining the passive words there -
The change that occurs in our lives is 100% the work of God - nothing that we can do ourselves.

What you do not say above is something we also discussed here recently is our part in the process - I forget how you said it - we work in partnership with God? No, I think you said it differently than that - but anyway you do hint at it above when you say about Peter - "keeping our eyes on Jesus only and in obedience to Jesus' word "Come". You also hint at when you say about II Cor. 3:17,18 - as we behold the glory of the Lord as in a mirror - We do have a part in the transformation, and the paradox is that all "our doing" is not us, but the grace of God working in us.

I suppose you chafe at my sentence when I say "our doing" just like I chafe when you say it is "automatic and unconscious"!!

I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things and the Lord doing things through and in us.

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

 

[oldethennew]

themselves, as they have 'chosen' to listen to the adversary who is always at work...

 

[PeterJens]

I think someone wants to distinguish between us doing something and Jesus doing something.
But in Christ we are Christs body, so what we do, He is doing. Simple.