Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?
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Bumped for rba.
Of course rba, I'll be happy to provide concrete evidence that Jesus Christ "Preexisted" in the Old Testament. And btw, I already pretty much know the two verses you are goin g to use to explain Genesis 1:26. Actually there are six explanations but the two that get the most "press" so to speak is God is talking to the heavenly host, the angels. The second is the "Plural of Majesty" excuse and both of them have problems which I will not explain right now. I want to deal with your first question?
The first thing I want to say that it was "NOT" God the Father that appeared in the Old Testament because Jesus Himself said that the Father cannot be seen. A couple of the verses are John 5:37 and John 6:46. Secondly, Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" physical manifestation of God, period. This is according to John 1:18 and John 14:9 as well as at other places.
Now, the following is what I wrote to quasar which I find to be the best argument within the Bible that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as "THE" angel of the Lord. Please read it carefully and look up the verses I provided. And btw, I will expand on this "apologetic" based on your questions?
"First of all the angel of the Lord is not an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and it can mean a real angel but it also simply mean messenger. It depends on how the word is used in context. For example at Malachie 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my angel, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming says the Lord of hosts." The angel in this verse is none other than John the Baptist and John is not an angel but a messenger. Just read Mark 1:1-3.
Secondly, Hebrews 6:13,14 is clear as crystal that it was God Almighty that swore the oath. Yet at Genesis 22 you have the angel of the Lord calling out from heaven two times and he swears the oath at Genesis 22:16 where it says crystal clear, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord.
The other problems you have is the fact that Abraham would not sacrifice his son to an angel. Thirdly, why does the angel of the Lord call out from heaven two times when at other places the Lord God calls out from heaven Himself? Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU FROM HEAVEN."
So quasar, please, please spare us the pain of you constintly posting for us to refer to your post #1 to post #1,000. You continue to fail in addressing one word of anyones post. You keep defering to your unbiblical post which most of us have read. Let me challenge you to please read the whole chapter of Genesis 22 and tell me why you disagree with what it says?
"
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Of course rba, I'll be happy to provide concrete evidence that Jesus Christ "Preexisted" in the Old Testament. And btw, I already pretty much know the two verses you are goin g to use to explain Genesis 1:26. Actually there are six explanations but the two that get the most "press" so to speak is God is talking to the heavenly host, the angels. The second is the "Plural of Majesty" excuse and both of them have problems which I will not explain right now. I want to deal with your first question?
The first thing I want to say that it was "NOT" God the Father that appeared in the Old Testament because Jesus Himself said that the Father cannot be seen. A couple of the verses are John 5:37 and John 6:46. Secondly, Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" physical manifestation of God, period. This is according to John 1:18 and John 14:9 as well as at other places.
Now, the following is what I wrote to quasar which I find to be the best argument within the Bible that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as "THE" angel of the Lord. Please read it carefully and look up the verses I provided. And btw, I will expand on this "apologetic" based on your questions?
"First of all the angel of the Lord is not an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and it can mean a real angel but it also simply mean messenger. It depends on how the word is used in context. For example at Malachie 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my angel, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming says the Lord of hosts." The angel in this verse is none other than John the Baptist and John is not an angel but a messenger. Just read Mark 1:1-3.
Secondly, Hebrews 6:13,14 is clear as crystal that it was God Almighty that swore the oath. Yet at Genesis 22 you have the angel of the Lord calling out from heaven two times and he swears the oath at Genesis 22:16 where it says crystal clear, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord.
The other problems you have is the fact that Abraham would not sacrifice his son to an angel. Thirdly, why does the angel of the Lord call out from heaven two times when at other places the Lord God calls out from heaven Himself? Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU FROM HEAVEN."
So quasar, please, please spare us the pain of you constintly posting for us to refer to your post #1 to post #1,000. You continue to fail in addressing one word of anyones post. You keep defering to your unbiblical post which most of us have read. Let me challenge you to please read the whole chapter of Genesis 22 and tell me why you disagree with what it says?
"IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Bumped for rba.
Of course rba, I'll be happy to provide concrete evidence that Jesus Christ "Preexisted" in the Old Testament. And btw, I already pretty much know the two verses you are goin g to use to explain Genesis 1:26. Actually there are six explanations but the two that get the most "press" so to speak is God is talking to the heavenly host, the angels. The second is the "Plural of Majesty" excuse and both of them have problems which I will not explain right now. I want to deal with your first question?
The first thing I want to say that it was "NOT" God the Father that appeared in the Old Testament because Jesus Himself said that the Father cannot be seen. A couple of the verses are John 5:37 and John 6:46. Secondly, Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" physical manifestation of God, period. This is according to John 1:18 and John 14:9 as well as at other places.
Now, the following is what I wrote to quasar which I find to be the best argument within the Bible that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as "THE" angel of the Lord. Please read it carefully and look up the verses I provided. And btw, I will expand on this "apologetic" based on your questions?
"First of all the angel of the Lord is not an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and it can mean a real angel but it also simply mean messenger. It depends on how the word is used in context. For example at Malachie 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my angel, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming says the Lord of hosts." The angel in this verse is none other than John the Baptist and John is not an angel but a messenger. Just read Mark 1:1-3.
Secondly, Hebrews 6:13,14 is clear as crystal that it was God Almighty that swore the oath. Yet at Genesis 22 you have the angel of the Lord calling out from heaven two times and he swears the oath at Genesis 22:16 where it says crystal clear, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord.
The other problems you have is the fact that Abraham would not sacrifice his son to an angel. Thirdly, why does the angel of the Lord call out from heaven two times when at other places the Lord God calls out from heaven Himself? Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU FROM HEAVEN."
So quasar, please, please spare us the pain of you constintly posting for us to refer to your post #1 to post #1,000. You continue to fail in addressing one word of anyones post. You keep defering to your unbiblical post which most of us have read. Let me challenge you to please read the whole chapter of Genesis 22 and tell me why you disagree with what it says?"
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Of course rba, I'll be happy to provide concrete evidence that Jesus Christ "Preexisted" in the Old Testament. And btw, I already pretty much know the two verses you are goin g to use to explain Genesis 1:26. Actually there are six explanations but the two that get the most "press" so to speak is God is talking to the heavenly host, the angels. The second is the "Plural of Majesty" excuse and both of them have problems which I will not explain right now. I want to deal with your first question?
The first thing I want to say that it was "NOT" God the Father that appeared in the Old Testament because Jesus Himself said that the Father cannot be seen. A couple of the verses are John 5:37 and John 6:46. Secondly, Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" physical manifestation of God, period. This is according to John 1:18 and John 14:9 as well as at other places.
Now, the following is what I wrote to quasar which I find to be the best argument within the Bible that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as "THE" angel of the Lord. Please read it carefully and look up the verses I provided. And btw, I will expand on this "apologetic" based on your questions?
"First of all the angel of the Lord is not an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and it can mean a real angel but it also simply mean messenger. It depends on how the word is used in context. For example at Malachie 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my angel, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming says the Lord of hosts." The angel in this verse is none other than John the Baptist and John is not an angel but a messenger. Just read Mark 1:1-3.
Secondly, Hebrews 6:13,14 is clear as crystal that it was God Almighty that swore the oath. Yet at Genesis 22 you have the angel of the Lord calling out from heaven two times and he swears the oath at Genesis 22:16 where it says crystal clear, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord.
The other problems you have is the fact that Abraham would not sacrifice his son to an angel. Thirdly, why does the angel of the Lord call out from heaven two times when at other places the Lord God calls out from heaven Himself? Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU FROM HEAVEN."
So quasar, please, please spare us the pain of you constintly posting for us to refer to your post #1 to post #1,000. You continue to fail in addressing one word of anyones post. You keep defering to your unbiblical post which most of us have read. Let me challenge you to please read the whole chapter of Genesis 22 and tell me why you disagree with what it says?
"IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
There are many who refer to some of the OT theophanies if the preincarnate Jesus, as the angel of the Lord, bluto. Such as in Gen.22:11. Though I accept it, I prefer the term messenger of the Lord in that sense, instead. Because according to Heb.1:1-2, the preincarnate Jesus created the angel, as recorded in Jn.1:3.
Therefore, the us, in Gen.1:26 and in 11:7 is obviously the preincarnate Jesus. I have often times used the following passages to reveal the OT appearances of the preincarnate Jesus, where applicable.
Theophanies
Definition: A manifestation or appearance of God to man.
According to McClintock and Strong: "God reveals himself only in Christ (Matt, xi, 27). The theophany is therefore more accurately defined as a Christophany, or an epiphany of God in Christ; and all nature is a storehouse of signs of the divine presence, which uniformly point to Christ (Rom. i, 20; Col. i, 16)" (Volume X, p. 333).
Application to this study:The fact that Almighty God, the Spirit of God, Father of Jesus Christ, appeared to man is well documented in the Old Testament. On several occasions he temporarily clothed Himself in flesh during these appearances, or theophanies. The difference between the following theophanies and Jesus Christ, is that when the spirit of Almighty God became Jesus Christ it was no longer temporary, but He became a man until 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 shall be fulfilled.
I. God appears to AbrahamA. Genesis 17:1-4, 9-10, 15-16, 22When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 15 God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her." 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.B. Genesis 18:1-3, 10The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 10 Then the LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.
II. God wrestles with JacobGenesis 32:24-30So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered. 28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." 29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
III. God appears to Moses in the burning bushExodus 3:2-6There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight-- why the bush does not burn up." 4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" And Moses said, "Here I am." 5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God
V. The Commander of the army of the LORD appears to JoshuaJoshua 5:13-15Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?" 14 "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?" 15 The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
V. The presence of the LORD with the three children in fireDaniel 3:22-25The king's command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers, "Weren't there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?" They replied, "Certainly, O king." 25 He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."
Quasar2
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WHAT DID THE APOSTLES SAY ABOUT JESUS?
The Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, and continued preaching the Gospel, with the Lord's blessing.
On that Day, Peter preached to the multitude of Jews who were in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost, and because they finally understood that Jesus was the Savior, and Christ was the Messiah that God had prophesied, --- some 3000 were saved, and the numbers continued to grow, as it says in Acts 4:
4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
All of this infuriated the Jews who put Peter and John in jail. --- But what did the Apostles say about Jesus, now that they were filled with the Holy Spirit, Acts 3:
1 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
2 And a certain man lame from his mother’s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple;
3 who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms.
4 And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us."
5 So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them.
6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."
7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them—walking, leaping, and praising God.
9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God.
10 Then they knew that it was he who sat begging alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple; and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.
11 Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon’s, greatly amazed.
12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."
--- Notice in verses 13 and 26, it says, "His Servant Jesus."
Peter and John were in jail overnight and the next day they were threatened not to speak any more in Jesus' name, in Acts 4:
23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them.
24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,
27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants (the Apostles) that with all boldness they may speak Your word,
30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus."
--- Notice again in verses 27 and 30, it says, "Your holy Servant Jesus."
And instead of being rebuked for saying anything wrongly, they had another 'Pentecostal Experience' where the place was shaken, and they were filled again with the Holy Spirit, and given 'boldness to speak.'
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
Remember what it said in John 16:
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;
--- So what they said about Jesus being 'God's Servant' and God's holy Servant, was the truth, as the Holy Spirit always revealed the truth.
The Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, and continued preaching the Gospel, with the Lord's blessing.
On that Day, Peter preached to the multitude of Jews who were in Jerusalem for the Feast of Pentecost, and because they finally understood that Jesus was the Savior, and Christ was the Messiah that God had prophesied, --- some 3000 were saved, and the numbers continued to grow, as it says in Acts 4:
4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
All of this infuriated the Jews who put Peter and John in jail. --- But what did the Apostles say about Jesus, now that they were filled with the Holy Spirit, Acts 3:
1 Now Peter and John went up together to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour.
2 And a certain man lame from his mother’s womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple;
3 who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms.
4 And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us."
5 So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them.
6 Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."
7 And he took him by the right hand and lifted him up, and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.
8 So he, leaping up, stood and walked and entered the temple with them—walking, leaping, and praising God.
9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God.
10 Then they knew that it was he who sat begging alms at the Beautiful Gate of the temple; and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.
11 Now as the lame man who was healed held on to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch which is called Solomon’s, greatly amazed.
12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: "Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."
--- Notice in verses 13 and 26, it says, "His Servant Jesus."
Peter and John were in jail overnight and the next day they were threatened not to speak any more in Jesus' name, in Acts 4:
23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them.
24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them,
27 "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together
28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants (the Apostles) that with all boldness they may speak Your word,
30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus."
--- Notice again in verses 27 and 30, it says, "Your holy Servant Jesus."
And instead of being rebuked for saying anything wrongly, they had another 'Pentecostal Experience' where the place was shaken, and they were filled again with the Holy Spirit, and given 'boldness to speak.'
31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.
Remember what it said in John 16:
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;
--- So what they said about Jesus being 'God's Servant' and God's holy Servant, was the truth, as the Holy Spirit always revealed the truth.
JESUS CHRIST REPRESENTED GOD --- for the 33 1/2 years they were together on earth, and Jesus said in John 9:
5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
--- Now this is beyond the time when Jesus was on earth, so after His resurrection and ascension, Jesus was exalted to a new role in heaven.
SO WHAT WAS THE ROLE OF JESUS AFTER HIS DEATH?
It said in Matthew that when Jesus died, the veil of the Temple was torn down (Matthew 27:51). --- And the way was opened into the Holy of Holies. --- Jesus became our High Priest and opened the door into the 'Prayer Room,' and kept it open, --- and so, we can come to God and pray directly in 'Jesus' name,' --- Jesus is our Savior, and our High Priest.
He was not mentioned in Hebrews 1, --- but it says in Hebrews 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 3:
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 4:
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 5:
5 So also (Jesus) Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:
"You are My Son, Today I have begotten You."
6 As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek";
7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
--- Jesus cried out to God who was able to save Him, and God heard His prayer but responded this way, --- in Luke 23:
42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
43 "Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him."
5:8 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"
--- Again it says in Hebrews 6:
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 7:
11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest
16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
17 For He testifies: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:
"The Lord has sworn And will not relent,
‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’"),
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.
24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 8:
1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
--- Jesus, as High Priest, is the 'Minister of the sanctuary' of the true tabernacle in heaven, 'which the Lord erected' for Him, 'at the right hand of God's throne.' --- "Ever there to make intercession for us."
--- Notice that the Tabernacle in heaven, made without hands, is at the right hand of God's throne, so it is a building, the heavenly Sanctuary, where Jesus intercedes on our behalf in this life, until we go to meet Him in heaven.
8:6 Now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
--- Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, because He lived among men and made the atoning sacrifice to bring us into right relationship with God, as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:
21 For He made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 9:
11 But Jesus Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Jesus Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 10:
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
---Again it say in Hebrews 12:
12 "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Notice again, that Jesus "Sat down at the right hand of the throne of God," as it says in Hebrews 8:
1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
--- It says in different verses that "Christ is seated at the right hand of God," --- but 'Jesus is the High Priest, 'seated in the Sanctuary of the true Tabernackle' of God, --- at the right hand of the Throne of God.
Placid
5 "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
--- Now this is beyond the time when Jesus was on earth, so after His resurrection and ascension, Jesus was exalted to a new role in heaven.
SO WHAT WAS THE ROLE OF JESUS AFTER HIS DEATH?
It said in Matthew that when Jesus died, the veil of the Temple was torn down (Matthew 27:51). --- And the way was opened into the Holy of Holies. --- Jesus became our High Priest and opened the door into the 'Prayer Room,' and kept it open, --- and so, we can come to God and pray directly in 'Jesus' name,' --- Jesus is our Savior, and our High Priest.
He was not mentioned in Hebrews 1, --- but it says in Hebrews 2:
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 3:
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.
3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 4:
14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 5:
5 So also (Jesus) Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:
"You are My Son, Today I have begotten You."
6 As He also says in another place: "You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek";
7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,
--- Jesus cried out to God who was able to save Him, and God heard His prayer but responded this way, --- in Luke 23:
42 saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done."
43 "Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him."
5:8 Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
10 called by God as High Priest "according to the order of Melchizedek,"
--- Again it says in Hebrews 6:
19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,
20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 7:
11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest
16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
17 For He testifies: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek."
18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness,
19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20 And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath
21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:
"The Lord has sworn And will not relent,
‘You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek’"),
22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.
23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing.
24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 8:
1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
--- Jesus, as High Priest, is the 'Minister of the sanctuary' of the true tabernacle in heaven, 'which the Lord erected' for Him, 'at the right hand of God's throne.' --- "Ever there to make intercession for us."
--- Notice that the Tabernacle in heaven, made without hands, is at the right hand of God's throne, so it is a building, the heavenly Sanctuary, where Jesus intercedes on our behalf in this life, until we go to meet Him in heaven.
8:6 Now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
--- Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, because He lived among men and made the atoning sacrifice to bring us into right relationship with God, as it says in 2 Corinthians 5:
21 For He made Him (Jesus) who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 9:
11 But Jesus Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Jesus Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
--- Again it says in Hebrews 10:
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
---Again it say in Hebrews 12:
12 "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
Notice again, that Jesus "Sat down at the right hand of the throne of God," as it says in Hebrews 8:
1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
--- It says in different verses that "Christ is seated at the right hand of God," --- but 'Jesus is the High Priest, 'seated in the Sanctuary of the true Tabernackle' of God, --- at the right hand of the Throne of God.
Placid
That Jesus Christ s coequal with the Father is made clear in the New Testament e.g.
Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26
Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18
“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9
“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)
John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).
The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19
And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)
He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15
In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9
Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13
When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6
In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).
Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3
He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.
Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28
That the Holy Spirit is distinguished from Father and Son is clear in John 14.16-17, 26.
The Scripture therefore clearly reveals a triune God for those who are given to see it by God. Full stop
.
It is a red herring to argue what terminology was used.
Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23
“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26
Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18
“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9
“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)
John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).
The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19
And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)
He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15
In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9
Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13
When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6
In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).
Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3
He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.
Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28
That the Holy Spirit is distinguished from Father and Son is clear in John 14.16-17, 26.
The Scripture therefore clearly reveals a triune God for those who are given to see it by God. Full stop
.
It is a red herring to argue what terminology was used.
Oh my placid, you said this: "He was not mentioned in Hebrews 1?" Who told you that Jesus Christ was not mentioned in Hebrews chapter 1? The whole chapter of Hebrews 1 talks about Jesus Christ starting right at vs1. And look at vs3 where it says, "He/Jesus Christ is the radiance of His/God the Father's glory and He/Jesus Christ the exact representation of God the Father's nature/essence, and He/Jesus Christ upholds all things byt the word of His/Jesus Christ power. When He/Jesus Christ makd purification of sins, He/Jesus Christ sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
And placid, why at Hebrews 1:8 does God the Father identify Jesus Christ as God? And why does the Father at Hebrews 1:6 says that all the angels worship Him? This also proves btw that Jesus Christ is not an angel when He appears at numerous places in the Old Testament. So placid, can you please reconcile this contradictions to your "errant" theology since you deny the deity of Jesus Christ?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And placid, why at Hebrews 1:8 does God the Father identify Jesus Christ as God? And why does the Father at Hebrews 1:6 says that all the angels worship Him? This also proves btw that Jesus Christ is not an angel when He appears at numerous places in the Old Testament. So placid, can you please reconcile this contradictions to your "errant" theology since you deny the deity of Jesus Christ?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
If you have trouble understanding the Triune Godhead, read the first chapter of John. However,
Romans 11:8 According as it is written (Isaiah 29:10), God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.
Acts 28:25-27
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoaken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Romans 11:8 According as it is written (Isaiah 29:10), God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day.
Acts 28:25-27
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoaken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Bumped for rba.
Of course rba, I'll be happy to provide concrete evidence that Jesus Christ "Preexisted" in the Old Testament. And btw, I already pretty much know the two verses you are goin g to use to explain Genesis 1:26. Actually there are six explanations but the two that get the most "press" so to speak is God is talking to the heavenly host, the angels. The second is the "Plural of Majesty" excuse and both of them have problems which I will not explain right now. I want to deal with your first question?
The first thing I want to say that it was "NOT" God the Father that appeared in the Old Testament because Jesus Himself said that the Father cannot be seen. A couple of the verses are John 5:37 and John 6:46. Secondly, Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" physical manifestation of God, period. This is according to John 1:18 and John 14:9 as well as at other places.
Now, the following is what I wrote to quasar which I find to be the best argument within the Bible that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as "THE" angel of the Lord. Please read it carefully and look up the verses I provided. And btw, I will expand on this "apologetic" based on your questions?
"First of all the angel of the Lord is not an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and it can mean a real angel but it also simply mean messenger. It depends on how the word is used in context. For example at Malachie 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my angel, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming says the Lord of hosts." The angel in this verse is none other than John the Baptist and John is not an angel but a messenger. Just read Mark 1:1-3.
Secondly, Hebrews 6:13,14 is clear as crystal that it was God Almighty that swore the oath. Yet at Genesis 22 you have the angel of the Lord calling out from heaven two times and he swears the oath at Genesis 22:16 where it says crystal clear, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord.
The other problems you have is the fact that Abraham would not sacrifice his son to an angel. Thirdly, why does the angel of the Lord call out from heaven two times when at other places the Lord God calls out from heaven Himself? Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU FROM HEAVEN."
So quasar, please, please spare us the pain of you constintly posting for us to refer to your post #1 to post #1,000. You continue to fail in addressing one word of anyones post. You keep defering to your unbiblical post which most of us have read. Let me challenge you to please read the whole chapter of Genesis 22 and tell me why you disagree with what it says?"
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Of course rba, I'll be happy to provide concrete evidence that Jesus Christ "Preexisted" in the Old Testament. And btw, I already pretty much know the two verses you are goin g to use to explain Genesis 1:26. Actually there are six explanations but the two that get the most "press" so to speak is God is talking to the heavenly host, the angels. The second is the "Plural of Majesty" excuse and both of them have problems which I will not explain right now. I want to deal with your first question?
The first thing I want to say that it was "NOT" God the Father that appeared in the Old Testament because Jesus Himself said that the Father cannot be seen. A couple of the verses are John 5:37 and John 6:46. Secondly, Jesus Christ is the "ONLY" physical manifestation of God, period. This is according to John 1:18 and John 14:9 as well as at other places.
Now, the following is what I wrote to quasar which I find to be the best argument within the Bible that Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation as "THE" angel of the Lord. Please read it carefully and look up the verses I provided. And btw, I will expand on this "apologetic" based on your questions?
"First of all the angel of the Lord is not an angel. The Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and it can mean a real angel but it also simply mean messenger. It depends on how the word is used in context. For example at Malachie 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send my angel, and he will clear the way before Me, And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddengly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming says the Lord of hosts." The angel in this verse is none other than John the Baptist and John is not an angel but a messenger. Just read Mark 1:1-3.
Secondly, Hebrews 6:13,14 is clear as crystal that it was God Almighty that swore the oath. Yet at Genesis 22 you have the angel of the Lord calling out from heaven two times and he swears the oath at Genesis 22:16 where it says crystal clear, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord.
The other problems you have is the fact that Abraham would not sacrifice his son to an angel. Thirdly, why does the angel of the Lord call out from heaven two times when at other places the Lord God calls out from heaven Himself? Exodus 20:22, "Then the Lord said to Moses, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, You yourselves have seen that I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU FROM HEAVEN."
So quasar, please, please spare us the pain of you constintly posting for us to refer to your post #1 to post #1,000. You continue to fail in addressing one word of anyones post. You keep defering to your unbiblical post which most of us have read. Let me challenge you to please read the whole chapter of Genesis 22 and tell me why you disagree with what it says?
"IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Hi Bruno,
Quote from Post 1028:
And placid, why at Hebrews 1:8 does God the Father identify Jesus Christ as God?
Response: --- The simple mistake is that it says in John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, 'and the Word was God.'
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
If you believed this you would notice two things:
--- The Word was already called God in verse 1, and again in verse 8.
--- And since "All things were made through Him," --- then each time you read that "All things were made through Him," --- it has to refer to the Word (Logos, the creative power of God.)
And The Word was called the 'only begotten God' and 'only begotten Son' in John 1:
18 NKJ: No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[f] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
18 NASV: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
18 NIV: No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.
So the Word was called both God and Son in John 1:18.
It says in Hebrews 1:
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
--- "Through whom also He made the worlds" refers to the Word (Logos, the creative power of God).
--- And in says in Hebrews 1:
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? --- (Not by earthly birth, but by appointment.)
And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
--- This appointed Firstborn (the Word), was sent into the world to be manifested through Jesus in a body of flesh and blood, that could shed its blood for the sacrifice.
You see, Jesus had to be human to shed His blood because, the Word, Christ, and the Holy Spirit were 'spiritual Beings' and were not blood bodies, that "Could feel temptation and the infirmities of our bodies." --- Only Jesus could be 'tempted in all points like we are.'
And the Word was sent into the world in Hebrews 10:
5 Therefore, when He (the Word) came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’"
--- This was written in Isaiah 48:
16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me."
So, again in Hebrews 1:
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God (already called God in John 1:1), is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
--- In the distant past when God was choosing a new leader, He chose the Word because, "
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
--- So the Word was chosen and anointed with oil as a King.
Jesus was never chosen from among others was He? --- But He was born on earth, which is commemorated by the restarting of our calendar.
And the chapters in Hebrews declare that Jesus was, and is, our High Priest forever, so Jesus could not be God.
Quote from Post 1028:
And placid, why at Hebrews 1:8 does God the Father identify Jesus Christ as God?
Response: --- The simple mistake is that it says in John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, 'and the Word was God.'
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
If you believed this you would notice two things:
--- The Word was already called God in verse 1, and again in verse 8.
--- And since "All things were made through Him," --- then each time you read that "All things were made through Him," --- it has to refer to the Word (Logos, the creative power of God.)
And The Word was called the 'only begotten God' and 'only begotten Son' in John 1:
18 NKJ: No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[f] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
18 NASV: No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
18 NIV: No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.
So the Word was called both God and Son in John 1:18.
It says in Hebrews 1:
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
--- "Through whom also He made the worlds" refers to the Word (Logos, the creative power of God).
--- And in says in Hebrews 1:
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have begotten You"? --- (Not by earthly birth, but by appointment.)
And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
--- This appointed Firstborn (the Word), was sent into the world to be manifested through Jesus in a body of flesh and blood, that could shed its blood for the sacrifice.
You see, Jesus had to be human to shed His blood because, the Word, Christ, and the Holy Spirit were 'spiritual Beings' and were not blood bodies, that "Could feel temptation and the infirmities of our bodies." --- Only Jesus could be 'tempted in all points like we are.'
And the Word was sent into the world in Hebrews 10:
5 Therefore, when He (the Word) came into the world, He said:
"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’"
--- This was written in Isaiah 48:
16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me."
So, again in Hebrews 1:
8 But to the Son He says:
"Your throne, O God (already called God in John 1:1), is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
--- In the distant past when God was choosing a new leader, He chose the Word because, "
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
--- So the Word was chosen and anointed with oil as a King.
Jesus was never chosen from among others was He? --- But He was born on earth, which is commemorated by the restarting of our calendar.
And the chapters in Hebrews declare that Jesus was, and is, our High Priest forever, so Jesus could not be God.
One more clarification can be made, --- that it was the Word that spoke through Jesus in John 17:
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
And only the Word could say:
4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
And only the Word could say:
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
--- It was the Word that God sent to do the work on earth Isaiah 48:16, so only the Word could say, "I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."
And only the Word could say, "
Glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
This joy is mentioned of the Sons of God in Job 38:
7 (Where were you, Job) When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
So the Word was with God from before the beginning of our earth, for it to be said that "All things were made through Him."
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
And only the Word could say:
4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
And only the Word could say:
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
--- It was the Word that God sent to do the work on earth Isaiah 48:16, so only the Word could say, "I have finished the work which You have given Me to do."
And only the Word could say, "
Glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
This joy is mentioned of the Sons of God in Job 38:
7 (Where were you, Job) When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
So the Word was with God from before the beginning of our earth, for it to be said that "All things were made through Him."
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,a visible manifestation of the invisible God,and the man Christ Jesus is the personal human body of God.
When the Bible says that God was manifest in the flesh,it means God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.
The Old Testament declares that the LORD of hosts,God Himself will be the Savior,and God said that there was no God formed before Him,and there will be no God formed after Him,and that God,and Him alone,is the Savior,meaning Jesus cannot be a created God,and He is God manifest in the flesh,so He has to be the one true God,not created.
Declares that the Son shall be called the mighty God,and the everlasting Father,which Jesus said if you seen Him,then you seen the Father.
God said Himself that He will come and save the Jews,and then describes the healings that will take place upon His people.
Says when the ruler comes,that He will be from everlasting,meaning having no beginning.
God said Israel's iniquities separated them from Him,so God would come Himself and bring salvation.
God told the Jews that one day He will speak to them,and they shall know His new name,behold it is I,which Jesus said if you seen Me,you have seen the Father,and it is the Father in Me,He does the works.
The New Testament says hereby we perceive the love of God,for He laid down His life for the brethren,and purchased the Church with His own blood.
The Bible says He is God with us.
In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God.The word of God,the Holy Bible is God revealing Himself to people by words written in a book.The Word of God is God personally revealing Himself by showing a visible manifestation,which no person has seen God at any time,the only begotten Son,who is in the bosom of the Father,He has declared Him,and showed the characteristics of the invisible God.
The Bible says that God reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ,to wit,that God was in Christ,reconciling the world unto Himself.God reconciled mankind to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,God and man in harmony,in which God laid down His own human body to take away our sins.
In Revelation chapter 1,Jesus is the Almighty.
Jesus is both God and man together in harmony,and when a person receives the Spirit,then they are in harmony with God,and when on earth Jesus could speak either as God,or as a man.
Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God,and the way the invisible God will have a relationship with the saints forever,for Jesus is the one true God in a visible image.
God appeared to Abraham twice,once concerning Sarah having a child,and conversing about Sodom and Gomorrah,and once a Melchizedek,king of Salem,who was without descent,without mother,without father,having no beginning of days,or end of life,but that was an image made of the dust of the earth,a temporary image,and went back to the dust,but Jesus is a permanent image of God for all eternity,and also having no beginning of days,or end of life,like good ole' Melchizedek.
Jesus is the one true God,showing a visible image of Himself,the only way we can see the invisible God.
He is God and man,the Almighty,and the Creator of all things,according to His deity,and the High Priest according to His humanity,for Jesus is both God and man.
But Jesus the visible image of the invisible God,is not all there is to Jesus,for He goes beyond that visible image,for as God,He dwells in the light that no man can approach unto,whom no man has seen,and no man will ever see.
Flesh robed around the Spirit,but the Spirit flows through that flesh,for God is in all,and through all,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
No God formed after God,and He is the only Savior,that He said He alone came to save mankind.
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
You can say Jesus is not God,but for some reason I do not believe you.I cannot figure out the reason I do not believe you,but it is a gut feeling,a hunch,for it is not plain to see it in scriptures,oh wait,it is plain to see it in scriptures as the nose on our face,but the ole' denominatiooooons obscure that obvious fact.
When the Bible says that God was manifest in the flesh,it means God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.
The Old Testament declares that the LORD of hosts,God Himself will be the Savior,and God said that there was no God formed before Him,and there will be no God formed after Him,and that God,and Him alone,is the Savior,meaning Jesus cannot be a created God,and He is God manifest in the flesh,so He has to be the one true God,not created.
Declares that the Son shall be called the mighty God,and the everlasting Father,which Jesus said if you seen Him,then you seen the Father.
God said Himself that He will come and save the Jews,and then describes the healings that will take place upon His people.
Says when the ruler comes,that He will be from everlasting,meaning having no beginning.
God said Israel's iniquities separated them from Him,so God would come Himself and bring salvation.
God told the Jews that one day He will speak to them,and they shall know His new name,behold it is I,which Jesus said if you seen Me,you have seen the Father,and it is the Father in Me,He does the works.
The New Testament says hereby we perceive the love of God,for He laid down His life for the brethren,and purchased the Church with His own blood.
The Bible says He is God with us.
In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God.The word of God,the Holy Bible is God revealing Himself to people by words written in a book.The Word of God is God personally revealing Himself by showing a visible manifestation,which no person has seen God at any time,the only begotten Son,who is in the bosom of the Father,He has declared Him,and showed the characteristics of the invisible God.
The Bible says that God reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ,to wit,that God was in Christ,reconciling the world unto Himself.God reconciled mankind to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,God and man in harmony,in which God laid down His own human body to take away our sins.
In Revelation chapter 1,Jesus is the Almighty.
Jesus is both God and man together in harmony,and when a person receives the Spirit,then they are in harmony with God,and when on earth Jesus could speak either as God,or as a man.
Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God,and the way the invisible God will have a relationship with the saints forever,for Jesus is the one true God in a visible image.
God appeared to Abraham twice,once concerning Sarah having a child,and conversing about Sodom and Gomorrah,and once a Melchizedek,king of Salem,who was without descent,without mother,without father,having no beginning of days,or end of life,but that was an image made of the dust of the earth,a temporary image,and went back to the dust,but Jesus is a permanent image of God for all eternity,and also having no beginning of days,or end of life,like good ole' Melchizedek.
Jesus is the one true God,showing a visible image of Himself,the only way we can see the invisible God.
He is God and man,the Almighty,and the Creator of all things,according to His deity,and the High Priest according to His humanity,for Jesus is both God and man.
But Jesus the visible image of the invisible God,is not all there is to Jesus,for He goes beyond that visible image,for as God,He dwells in the light that no man can approach unto,whom no man has seen,and no man will ever see.
Flesh robed around the Spirit,but the Spirit flows through that flesh,for God is in all,and through all,and the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit of God,for God cannot be separated.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
No God formed after God,and He is the only Savior,that He said He alone came to save mankind.
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
You can say Jesus is not God,but for some reason I do not believe you.I cannot figure out the reason I do not believe you,but it is a gut feeling,a hunch,for it is not plain to see it in scriptures,oh wait,it is plain to see it in scriptures as the nose on our face,but the ole' denominatiooooons obscure that obvious fact.
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I have told you before, Trinitarians ARE MONOTHEISTIC. ONLY False Teachers think we mean Polytheism by the term Trinitarian.
Now WHEN did you say that Alteration was Made?
I just compared the 1894 Greek NT, Compared to the 1550 Greek NT, they look IDENTICAL TO ME.
But of course YOUR Religion would have to claim they were ALTERED, or Mat. 28:19 would Blow your whole theory out of the water.
Matthew 28:19 (HCSB) {First published in March 2004}
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
NO MENTION OF THE ALTERATION THERE.
NO MENTION OF THE ALTERATION THERE.
NO MENTION OF THE ALTERATION THERE.
NO MENTION OF THE ALTERATION THERE.
NO MENTION OF THE ALTERATION THERE.
NO MENTION OF THE ALTERATION THERE.