Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[PlainWord]

lol..

I am not trying to prove anyone, I already stated I have not made up my mind,

Your trying to prove there is no rapture, thus the onus is on you not me my friend.

finally.. The rapture is NOT A RETURN.. so your point is mute either way. (the term "rapture" comes from the term rapturas (latin) which means to be "caught up" this the rapture is not a return, as God brings or catches us up to him, he does not come to us.)

I don't try to disprove the rapture. I am trying to tell you that it doesn't come before Israel is attacked (AKA Great Tribulation). The Rapture is right here:

and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

and here:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

and here:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

and here:

Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

and here:

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

and here:

I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

and here:

And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

and here:

[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


All of these passages discuss the same event. In some of them the context is clearly after the Attack on Israel, in others, the Great Tribulation isn't mentioned because its over. But all these passages discuss what happens when Christ returns.

 

[PlainWord]

Simple, the church is never mentioned again after the end of Revelation chapter 3.

This simply is not true. The church is made up of Saints, right? We have Saints all over the place mentioned after Rev 3:

Rev 11: [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

Saints have the olive oil which is the Holy Spirit. Saints were given the power at Pentecost.

Rev 12: [SUP]17 [/SUP]And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who keeps the testimony of Jesus? Hint: Not the Jews.

Rev 13: It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Oops, saints are under attack. It doesn't say, "left behind" Saints.

He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Saints are to remain patient and faithful during all the tribulation coming their way before Christ returns.

Rev 14: Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Ditto

Rev 16: For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.”

Time to rethink your position. Besides there just is no basis to rescue the Church from an attack on Israel. The GT is not the wrath. Christ brings the wrath with Him and He gathers us up before He pours out the wrath. This is why we want to be counted worthy to escape those things (His wrath) and to stand before Him and with Him.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You still have not proven when the church will be raptured, before of after the GT? You say before which means since you make the claim you have to prove the claim. I say after based on the words of Jesus Christ at Matthew 24 and based on the fact that the Apostle Paul backs up what Jesus said at 1 and 2 Thessalonians. Or what the Apostle John stated at 1 John 2.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Hello Bluto,

I would remind you that the event of the gathering of the living church was previously an unknown event that was revealed by the Lord to Paul:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

The word mustérion translated Mystery, is something that is unknown, but is made known through revelation, which Paul received from the Lord. Here in his letter to the Corinthians he is making known to them, for the first time, the mystery of the event of living believers being changed and caught up. Therefore, prior to Paul receiving this revelation, it was something that was previously unknown. Although, the Lord did hint about it in various places in the gospels, it was not officially scripture until the Lord revealed it through Paul.

 

[PlainWord]

Hello Bluto,

I would remind you that the event of the gathering of the living church was previously an unknown event that was revealed by the Lord to Paul:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

The word mustérion translated Mystery, is something that is unknown, but is made known through revelation, which Paul received from the Lord. Here in his letter to the Corinthians he is making known to them, for the first time, the mystery of the event of living believers being changed and caught up. Therefore, prior to Paul receiving this revelation, it was something that was previously unknown. Although, the Lord did hint about it in various places in the gospels, it was not officially scripture until the Lord revealed it through Paul.

I actually agree with you on this one minor point, Paul was the only one that this was revealed to. That those living will be changed when Christ returns. However, Paul makes no mention of the GT of Israel, does he?

Paul, however, does teach this in the same chapter:

[SUP]25 [/SUP]For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. [SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

So, once we are changed and the resurrection happens, death has been defeated. For death to be defeated at a pre-trib timing, all other enemies Christ has to defeat must already be defeated.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. [SUP]13 [/SUP]These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. [SUP]14 [/SUP]These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Christ is back and waging war. So, death has not yet been defeated so how can the changing in a twinkling of an eye happen before this?

 

[BlazyJon]

Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine Debunked
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 20:4-6

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So if the dead in Christ rise FIRST and... "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection", and we who are alive and remain do not precede them. Then I submit to you that pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is FALSE.

Yes the Lord will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, so consider:

1 Corinthians 15:52

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

How many trumpets are there in Revelation? Seven right? So I am pretty sure the Church will be present during the first Six. How do I know the Seventh Trumpet is the Last Trumpet? I'll show you.

Revelation 11:15

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

So it is obvious that if they "BECOME the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ", then you can tell it is the last trumpet as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52. And if the LAST trumpet then six need to blow first. But the day and hour the Lord returns is only known by the Father, so the angel could sound it at any time. And if he does then we who are alive and remain will meet the Lord in the air AS He is coming to Earth. And if we simply meet Him in the air as He is coming to Earth, to stand on the Mount of Olives, won't we.............."Always be with the Lord"?--1 Thessalonians 4:17

Consider this:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

In 1 Thessalonians it spoke of our gathering together to Him and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
In 2 Thessalonians it speaks of our gathering together to Him and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul was writing these letters to the same people.

Consider this:

Luke 17:34-37

I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[f]

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

Revelation 19:21

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Left where? Left with the birds...or...eagles. And if you check the context of Revelation 19:21 you will see that the Lord fully returned; it is quite obvious.

Romans 8:17

and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

The word suffer is not a typo.

Mecca On Seven Hills or Mountains? Is King Faisal the Beast?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Blazyjon,

So if the dead in Christ rise FIRST and... "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection", and we who are alive and remain do not precede them. Then I submit to you that pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is FALSE.

Your error is 1). not recognizing that those who rise first, as recorded in 1 Thes.4:13-17 are not partaking in the same phase of the first resurrection as those in Rev.20:4-6. And 2). You have not understood that there are several phases to the first resurrection. Those mentioned in Rev.20:4-6 are those who take part in the first resurrection which takes place after Christ has returned to the earth to end the age. Below are the other phases of the first resurrection or the resurrection which takes place before the one at the end of the thousand years:

* Christ the first fruits - (1 Cor.15:20)

* The church at the Lord's appearing - (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

* The male child/144,000 caught up to God's throne (Rev.12:6)

* The two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-6)

All of the above fall under the banner of the first resurrection, with Jesus as the originator. You, along with others, get hung up on the words "first resurrection" to mean "Only resurrection" All of those resurrections are phases of the first resurrection. It just so happens that of all the places where those resurrections are recorded, Rev.20:4-6 is the only place where it is referred to as the first resurrection, but it doesn't mean that it is the only phase to the first resurrection.

Luke 17:34-37

I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”[f]

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

The above is not in reference to the church, but to those who will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath. Those who are of the "one taken" group, are the wicked, all those who do evil and commit sin. The "One taken" group is being compared to the wicked who were taken away in the flood. The reference to "wherever the dead body is, there will the vultures/birds be gathered" is what happens to the "One taken" group.

When Christ returns to the earth to end the age, the church, who will have previously been resurrected and caught up, will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on those white horses, also referred to as His called, chosen and faithful followers (Rev.17:14,19:14). At the same time, he will send his angels throughout the earth and they will first gather the weeds (One taken) and will bring them back to Armageddon and they will all be killed with that double-edged sword, which is symbolic for the word of God.

and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

By your claim above, you are not recognizing that there is a difference between common trials and tribulations that Jesus said that all believers would have vs. the coming wrath of God. Believers in Christ will suffer trials and tribulations, but we will not be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

According to scripture, the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath:

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

"For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[bluto]

Hello Bluto,

I would remind you that the event of the gathering of the living church was previously an unknown event that was revealed by the Lord to Paul:

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."

The word mustérion translated Mystery, is something that is unknown, but is made known through revelation, which Paul received from the Lord. Here in his letter to the Corinthians he is making known to them, for the first time, the mystery of the event of living believers being changed and caught up. Therefore, prior to Paul receiving this revelation, it was something that was previously unknown. Although, the Lord did hint about it in various places in the gospels, it was not officially scripture until the Lord revealed it through Paul.

Well thanks for the reminder but to quote that great theologian Hillary Clinton, "What difference does it make?" My point is did you read the context of 1 Corinthains 15:20-24, "then comes the end" when the Lord comes at vs23. And then you mentioned 1 Corinthains 15:51, "Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed." When will this happen ahwatukee?

Look at vs52, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET." This means the trumpet after which no other trumpet will sound. And remember I said that the Apostle Paul backs up the words of Jesus Christ? Look at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Please notice the very first 12 words, "FOR THIS WE SAY TO YOU BY THE WORD OF THE LORD etc. And vs16, And the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel, AND WITH THE TRUMPET OF GOD; etc.

So again, where are you goiing to insert the pre-trib rapture? Is it somewhere before the end of the age or is it somewhere before the last trumpet?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't try to disprove the rapture. I am trying to tell you that it doesn't come before Israel is attacked (AKA Great Tribulation). The Rapture is right here:

and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31 [/SUP]And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

and here:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

and here:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

and here:

Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

and here:

[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

and here:

I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

and here:

And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

and here:

[SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. [SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


All of these passages discuss the same event. In some of them the context is clearly after the Attack on Israel, in others, the Great Tribulation isn't mentioned because its over. But all these passages discuss what happens when Christ returns.

well thanks for an opinion.

However. it is flawed. They can not be the same event, If they were, You have Jesus returning t an earth where all who took the mark have been killed. and he resurrected all the living people who are his, leaving no one left alive on earth.

so, unless your ammillenial (of which we have more issues) this theory is destroyed

 

[Ahwatukee]

Look at vs52, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMPET." This means the trumpet after which no other trumpet will sound.

No, the last trumpet refers to the last of a specific type of trumpet, not all trumpets.

"then comes the end"

That obviously doesn't mean directly after that takes place. As I told you from scripture, believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, ergo, we cannot be here on the earth during that time. The promise to come and take us back to the Father's house will take place prior to that wrath. Anyone who believes that the Lord is going to put his bride through his wrath doesn't fully understand the scope of what the Lord did for them. It would be a slap in the face to Jesus, for he took upon himself the wrath that all believers deserve. You need to go and study to see who it is that the coming wrath is going to be against and it is not the church.

You also need to recognize that there is difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. They are two separate events. How do you justify your belief that the church will be gathered when Lord returns to the earth to end the age, when those who will have been previously resurrected will be following him out of heaven on white horses, wearing that fine linen, white and clean? Those who will have been previously gathered are those called, chosen and faithful followers. That we are following him out of heaven, would demonstrate that we will have already been in heaven.

The twenty-four elders are twelve representing the twelve tribes of Israel and the other twelve are representing the church, which would again demonstrate that the church is already in heaven and that before the 1st seal is broken.

It is at Rev.4:1 where John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet where the church is prophetic for the church being gathered, which is why you will not see the church referred to after chapter 4, which is the narrative of God's wrath. It is not until Rev.19:6-8 that the church is mentioned as the bride, which is where she will be receiving her fine linen, white and clean, which is the same clothing that the army on white horses will be wearing and that because they are the bride.

You are only misinterpreting the "Last trumpet" as meaning every trumpet. But the last trumpet is referring to the last trumpet of a type of trumpet, of which there were/are several.

 

[masmpg]

PS: To discuss about this matter is according my meaning useless. Because you can find scripture for to defend the
position I believe, too. And in cc you will find threats for that.

First off the problem with believing that the "church" will be raptured then will come another coming of Jesus for the rest of the righteous is the fact that those who believe this teaching will wait for the first, or pretrib rapture before they accept Jesus. Far too many Christians are being deceived by this teaching and when Jesus comes for ALL His people they will be lost because they were hoping for a second chance. If you look through all the bible stories about disasters there were NO second chances. During the flood Noah was not "raptured" to heaven. He went through the tribulation of the flood, but God kept Him safe. Jesus said as it was in the days of Noah, and Sodom and Gomorrah, these people were protected through the tribulation not taken out of it. Those who wait for the second second coming after the pre trib rapture will be lost because Jesus is only coming one time for the righteous and one time for the wicked.

Second when you read about where the "one was taken, the other left" in Matthew 24:40 & 41 and Luke 17 we need to know where they were taken to and the bible states clearly where those who are taken are taken to. In Luke:17:34-37 we find where Jesus said they will be TAKEN to: "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Lets find out what happens when eagles are gathered together in Matthew:24:28: "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." to be "taken" is not a good thing. Those who are taken are taken to a bad place I would rather be left.

Third, you mention "Because you can find scripture for to defend the position I believe, too." Please share where the pre trib rapture is found in the bible.

 

[Bladerunner]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]My response was to your flat out denial of the gap between the 69th and 70th weeks, you now wriggle in another direction, with the remark that it "doesn't matter much." Why then did you bring it up in the first place, genius?

Were there time gaps between all of the more than 300 OT prophecies about Jesus, and the time He fulfilled them during His first advent? Yes or no! Is there a gap of time between Jesus first advent and the time He makes His second? Yes or no ? As there is now, between the 69th and 70th weeks, or between Dan.9: 26 and 27l Which is too heavy for you to man-up and admit you are wrong, because the Scriptures refute your false views!

Then your insulting remark that I'm "out of gas!" The fact of the matter is, you're full of gas! All of which comes from a classic false prophet!




Quasar92

[/FONT]

Easy there Quasar92 (my friend)... Plainword is one of these people who will not listen and when guided in the right direction will not search the scriptures to determine if it is true. My prayers are with him that the Holy Spirit might steer him towards the correct answers he is seeking. Thanks for your informative and correct post. I am with you.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Greetings mmasmpg,

First off the problem with believing that the "church" will be raptured then will come another coming of Jesus

The gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, are two different events. When the church is gathered, Jesus is not returning to the earth and therefore to call them two comings is incorrect. Jesus will descend to the atmosphere and the dead will resurrect and the living believers will then be changed and caught up. This will take place prior to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God.

In opposition, the event of the Lord's return will be to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Consequently, when he returns to end the age, those who will have previously been gathered, are seen returning with him riding on those white horses, which would demonstrate that we will have already been in heaven.


Also, just because there were no second chances in previous disasters, such as the flood, does not mean that God has not provided a way out even for those during the time of his wrath. For as you can see in the scripture, not only is his wrath for the purpose of punishment, but also move people to repentance. There will be four groups people during the time of God's wrath:


The nation Israel, whom God will be dealing with in the fulfillment of that seventieth seven and who will be cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years.


The Male Child, which is collective name for the 144,000 who are the first fruits out of Israel who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah.


The great tribulation saints, who are not the church, but those Gentiles who become believers after the church has been gathered. This is that great multitude which no man can count wearing white robes.


And lastly, the rest of the inhabitants of the earth, whose names were not written in the book of life before the world began. These will be those who will worship the beast, his image and who will receive his mark and that to save their own lives.


As I have previously pointed out, the pre trib rapture (pre seven years) is concluded not by any one scripture, but by comparing and cross-referencing scriptures regarding this issue. Anyone who believes that the Lord is going to put his church through his wrath, has not understood the full meaning of what Christ did for believers.

When writing to Titus, Paul called the appearing of the Lord, "the blessed hope." Likewise, after writing the Thessalonians and giving a detailed description of the gathering of the church, he said, "therefore, comfort one another with these words." So ask yourself this question, would it be more of a comfort and a blessed hope for the Lord to gather his bride before his wrath or after? In answering this, keep in mind that the trials and tribulations that the Lord said believers would have, is completely different from the wrath of God.

 

[bluto]

No, the last trumpet refers to the last of a specific type of trumpet, not all trumpets.



That obviously doesn't mean directly after that takes place. As I told you from scripture, believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, ergo, we cannot be here on the earth during that time. The promise to come and take us back to the Father's house will take place prior to that wrath. Anyone who believes that the Lord is going to put his bride through his wrath doesn't fully understand the scope of what the Lord did for them. It would be a slap in the face to Jesus, for he took upon himself the wrath that all believers deserve. You need to go and study to see who it is that the coming wrath is going to be against and it is not the church.

You also need to recognize that there is difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. They are two separate events. How do you justify your belief that the church will be gathered when Lord returns to the earth to end the age, when those who will have been previously resurrected will be following him out of heaven on white horses, wearing that fine linen, white and clean? Those who will have been previously gathered are those called, chosen and faithful followers. That we are following him out of heaven, would demonstrate that we will have already been in heaven.

The twenty-four elders are twelve representing the twelve tribes of Israel and the other twelve are representing the church, which would again demonstrate that the church is already in heaven and that before the 1st seal is broken.

It is at Rev.4:1 where John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet where the church is prophetic for the church being gathered, which is why you will not see the church referred to after chapter 4, which is the narrative of God's wrath. It is not until Rev.19:6-8 that the church is mentioned as the bride, which is where she will be receiving her fine linen, white and clean, which is the same clothing that the army on white horses will be wearing and that because they are the bride.

You are only misinterpreting the "Last trumpet" as meaning every trumpet. But the last trumpet is referring to the last trumpet of a type of trumpet, of which there were/are several.

Oh please, do you know I have heard that line for over 50 years now that Jesus took on the wrath of God for us? That is so "old and dry school" thinking that it upsets me to no end. Since we are not destined for the wrath of God why would His Son be? 2 Corinthains 5:19, "namely that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself." Jesus Christ dying on that cross was an act of love for our benefit so we could be reconciled back to God. There was no wrath put on His Son, period.

This reminds of the wof teachers who said the atonement was not finished on the cross, it was finished in hell. This is where Jesus Christ was tortured by Satan and his minions and Jesus was born again in hell until God the Father could not take it anymore and He bellowed out "Enough!"

Now, getting back to this wrath thing at 1 Thessalonians 5:9. "For God has not destined us for wrather, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." That word, "salvation" can also be translated "deliverance." 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, WHO DELIVERS US FROM THE WRATH TO COME." I personally believe at least from 1 Thess 5:9 it can pertain to salvation proper or in the sense of when is the rapture? In other words, there is wrath on those who reject Jesus Christ. Else why at vs10 Paul says, "who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live to together with Him." I mean being together with Him sounds kind of final to me?

Then Paul says at 1 Thess 5:11 to encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you also are doing." Now, look at John 11:21-24, "Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if Youhad been here my brother would not have died. VS22, EVen now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Vs23, Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again." Vs24, "Martha said to Him, I know that he will rise again IN THE RESURRECTION ON THE LAST DAY." When is the "last day" ahwatukee?

Lastly, and speaking of wrath? 1 Corinthians 1:7,8, "so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, vs9, WHO SHALL CONFIRM YOU TO THE END, blamelss in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." What end ahwatukee? See how many little gems can be found in the Bible!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[wolfwint]

First off the problem with believing that the "church" will be raptured then will come another coming of Jesus for the rest of the righteous is the fact that those who believe this teaching will wait for the first, or pretrib rapture before they accept Jesus. Far too many Christians are being deceived by this teaching and when Jesus comes for ALL His people they will be lost because they were hoping for a second chance. If you look through all the bible stories about disasters there were NO second chances. During the flood Noah was not "raptured" to heaven. He went through the tribulation of the flood, but God kept Him safe. Jesus said as it was in the days of Noah, and Sodom and Gomorrah, these people were protected through the tribulation not taken out of it. Those who wait for the second second coming after the pre trib rapture will be lost because Jesus is only coming one time for the righteous and one time for the wicked.

Second when you read about where the "one was taken, the other left" in Matthew 24:40 & 41 and Luke 17 we need to know where they were taken to and the bible states clearly where those who are taken are taken to. In Luke:17:34-37 we find where Jesus said they will be TAKEN to: "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Lets find out what happens when eagles are gathered together in Matthew:24:28: "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." to be "taken" is not a good thing. Those who are taken are taken to a bad place I would rather be left.

Third, you mention "Because you can find scripture for to defend the position I believe, too." Please share where the pre trib rapture is found in the bible.

Hi Masmpg, as I said you if you follow this thread you find different meanigs about it. Our bibleschool teacher said: that it makes no sense to discuss and coming in disharmony about eschatology questions, because it is difficult to clear them 100%

"First off the problem with believing that the "church" will be raptured then will come another coming of Jesus for the rest of the righteous is the fact that those who believe this teaching will wait for the first, or pretrib rapture before they accept Jesus. Far too many Christians are being deceived by this teaching and when Jesus comes for ALL His people they will be lost because they were hoping for a second chance. If you look through all the bible stories about disasters there were NO second chances. During the flood Noah was not "raptured" to heaven. He went through the tribulation of the flood, but God kept Him safe. Jesus said as it was in the days of Noah, and Sodom and Gomorrah, these people were protected through the tribulation not taken out of it. Those who wait for the second second coming after the pre trib rapture will be lost because Jesus is only coming one time for the righteous and one time for the wicked."

I must confess, i never heared and i am also never taught, that somebody has a second chance in the Great tribulation time.
According what I believe is that there is no church (body of christ) in this time. You have time for to decide for Jesus Christ, till the rapture, then its to late! It may be that you find nominell christians and churches like RCC and some liberal protestant churches, but no chrstians which belongs to Jesus Christ after rapture on earth. So this is for me no argument to defend pre trib.

"Second when you read about where the "one was taken, the other left" in Matthew 24:40 & 41 and Luke 17 we need to know where they were taken to and the bible states clearly where those who are taken are taken to. In Luke:17:34-37 we find where Jesus said they will be TAKEN to: "I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Lets find out what happens when eagles are gathered together in Matthew:24:28: "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together." to be "taken" is not a good thing. Those who are taken are taken to a bad place I would rather be left."

Well this time I see not for christians, but for those who live in the Great tribulation! In revelation 14,6+7 we find an angel who preaches the gospel to ll people which are living in this time!

And I saw another angel fly in midheaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment has come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.



From all the context this works togehter with Matth. 24,14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If you are a bornagain christian i would say you will not enter in this Tribulation time, but it can be that you will have to die in persecution. Like many brothers and sisters today in certain places of our world.


"Third, you mention "Because you can find scripture for to defend the position I believe, too." Please share where the pre trib rapture is found in the bible."

Please follow the post from Bro. Ahwatukee! He did a good job to work it out, so i have nothing to add.

From all positions about rapture (pre/mid/post) pre trib for me is the best supportet and most logical position, if i take the word of god literally and see that God has two seperate ways with the body of christ (the believers in Jesus Christ from pentecost till the rapture) and his choosen folk of Israel.

PS: I got a second chance! The first time when i heared about Jesus Christ and that i need him for salvation I rejectet him.

 

[PlainWord]

Easy there Quasar92 (my friend)... Plainword is one of these people who will not listen and when guided in the right direction will not search the scriptures to determine if it is true. My prayers are with him that the Holy Spirit might steer him towards the correct answers he is seeking. Thanks for your informative and correct post. I am with you.

What we have here is two men so lost in their false views that they cannot see the beauty of Dan 9 and what Christ did for us. Instead they see the AntiChrist. The AntiChrist instead of Christ!! How foolish and shameful. I'll try once more although I know it will be a waste of time.

Dan 9 says this:

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Mat 26 says this:

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. [SUP]28 [/SUP]For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Gal 3:17 says this:

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

But you think the antichrist made the covenant with many and was cut off. What a pair of rocket scientists you two are. You won't even discuss Dan 11-12 where the real "antichrist" and real Abomination of Desolation is found. Instead you pin your entire end times scenario on the misinterpretation of half a verse.

 

[garee]

Oh please, do you know I have heard that line for over 50 years now that Jesus took on the wrath of God for us? That is so "old and dry school" thinking that it upsets me to no end. Since we are not destined for the wrath of God why would His Son be? 2 Corinthains 5:19, "namely that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself." Jesus Christ dying on that cross was an act of love for our benefit so we could be reconciled back to God. There was no wrath put on His Son, period.

It would seem you forgot about Christ taking the cup of the Father’s wrath in our stead.

Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

 

[Jimbone]

Oh please, do you know I have heard that line for over 50 years now that Jesus took on the wrath of God for us? That is so "old and dry school" thinking that it upsets me to no end. Since we are not destined for the wrath of God why would His Son be? 2 Corinthains 5:19, "namely that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself." Jesus Christ dying on that cross was an act of love for our benefit so we could be reconciled back to God. There was no wrath put on His Son, period.

This reminds of the wof teachers who said the atonement was not finished on the cross, it was finished in hell. This is where Jesus Christ was tortured by Satan and his minions and Jesus was born again in hell until God the Father could not take it anymore and He bellowed out "Enough!"

Now, getting back to this wrath thing at 1 Thessalonians 5:9. "For God has not destined us for wrather, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." That word, "salvation" can also be translated "deliverance." 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, WHO DELIVERS US FROM THE WRATH TO COME." I personally believe at least from 1 Thess 5:9 it can pertain to salvation proper or in the sense of when is the rapture? In other words, there is wrath on those who reject Jesus Christ. Else why at vs10 Paul says, "who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live to together with Him." I mean being together with Him sounds kind of final to me?

Then Paul says at 1 Thess 5:11 to encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you also are doing." Now, look at John 11:21-24, "Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if Youhad been here my brother would not have died. VS22, EVen now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Vs23, Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again." Vs24, "Martha said to Him, I know that he will rise again IN THE RESURRECTION ON THE LAST DAY." When is the "last day" ahwatukee?

Lastly, and speaking of wrath? 1 Corinthians 1:7,8, "so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, vs9, WHO SHALL CONFIRM YOU TO THE END, blamelss in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." What end ahwatukee? See how many little gems can be found in the Bible!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Really? "I have heard that line for over 50 years now that Jesus took on the wrath of God for us? That is so "old and dry school" thinking that it upsets me to no end. Since we are not destined for the wrath of God why would His Son be?"

This is Christianity truth 101, why? Because God is perfactly just and can not let sin go unpunished. Do you not understand that the only way God can be infinitely just, and infinitely merciful is Jesus and the cross? Yes God did pour out ALL the wrath we deserve on His Son so we could be made righteous by His sacrifice. To my ear, if we deny this we deny His work on the cross.

Not only that, but our God is so great that Isaiah 53:10 tells us not only did He pour His wrath on His Son for us, "10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand." but it pleased Him because of the end result.

That is why when His work on that cross is denied like you just did, "it upsets me to no end" as well. I'm sorry if what God did to reconcile us back to Him sounds too "mean" for you, but I praise God every day that He did it for us.

 

[bluto]

Horse Hockey! Good grief, think man! Of course God cannot let sin go unpunished but how does that translate into God the Father punishing His only begotten with His wrath? In fact, give me one verse in the Bible that God the Father poured out His wrath on His Son? Just give me one?

Have you not read Romans 5:9? "Much more then HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him." Quite the opposite happend on that cross because Jesus Christ not only saved us from sin but He saved us from God's wrath. In other words, the death of Jesus Christ satisfied God's wrath which was/is directed to us, not His Son. I'll have a lot more to say on this later.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Jimbone]

Horse Hockey! Good grief, think man! Of course God cannot let sin go unpunished but how does that translate into God the Father punishing His only begotten with His wrath? In fact, give me one verse in the Bible that God the Father poured out His wrath on His Son? Just give me one?

Have you not read Romans 5:9? "Much more then HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him." Quite the opposite happend on that cross because Jesus Christ not only saved us from sin but He saved us from God's wrath. In other words, the death of Jesus Christ satisfied God's wrath which was/is directed to us, not His Son. I'll have a lot more to say on this later.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Because Jesus fulfilled the law for us, He was the only man to do so, and then He laid His life down for all of us, so that if we, by faith, believe in Him then the debt we owe for our sins was paid by Him, and the perfect life He lived is applied to us as a free and very undeserved gift, and we can now be reconciled back to God, His Spirit can indwell us, and we can know eternal life all because He paid the price. And calling the truth of the gospel "Horse Hockey" is childish man, you don't need to come at me like that.

Please don't talk down to me like your going to "teach me a lesson", I disagree with you and that is not what I've been led to believe, I can make my case and listen to yours, but you don't need to go all condescending with stuff like "Have you not read Romans 5:9?", and "Good grief, think man!".

If Christ did not take the wrath you've earned for yourself over a lifetime of sinning, then are you going to pay it? He took mine man, and I will praise God with my very last breath for being willing to do all that for me. That's the love very love that overwhelms me the most when I think on it. What God was willing to do for us on all fronts, to lay His life down to take the "cup" that was due to us. The "cup" wasn't men beating Him up and whipping the skin off His back, the price paid wasn't letting us spit at Him and pull out His beard, we weren't paid for by beating Him beyond recognition and driving nails through His hands and feet, the price was paid when the Father forsook Him on that cross and the price of Gods wrath was put on His head to pay the price for my disgusting self. He did that for each and every one of us, not only took the righteous wrath of God on Himself, but was also willing to put that wrath on the only truly innocent life in history, His Son. I praise His name He did that for me, I praise His name He did it for you too even though you seem to find the very notion "Horse Hockey". Don't feel bad for me brother, I know Him regardless of who's right in this, and I will assume the same about you, and praise Him for everyone that is in Him. I do understand why it's a hard concept to accept, but that's what He has led me to believe is truth and why.

 

[Jimbone]

Really? "I have heard that line for over 50 years now that Jesus took on the wrath of God for us? That is so "old and dry school" thinking that it upsets me to no end. Since we are not destined for the wrath of God why would His Son be?"

This is Christianity truth 101, why? Because God is perfactly just and can not let sin go unpunished. Do you not understand that the only way God can be infinitely just, and infinitely merciful is Jesus and the cross? Yes God did pour out ALL the wrath we deserve on His Son so we could be made righteous by His sacrifice. To my ear, if we deny this we deny His work on the cross.

Not only that, but our God is so great that Isaiah 53:10 tells us not only did He pour His wrath on His Son for us, "10 But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand." but it pleased Him because of the end result.

That is why when His work on that cross is denied like you just did, "it upsets me to no end" as well. I'm sorry if what God did to reconcile us back to Him sounds too "mean" for you, but I praise God every day that He did it for us.

I also agree with you about "Jesus, WHO DELIVERS US FROM THE WRATH TO COME", the way He did that was by taking it on Himself. A holy God can't just "let it slide", the price has to be paid. All glory to Him it was paid.