Scriptures against the false pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

[Quasar92]

Pointless obsession?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Just what do you think the "FORTRESS" of the sanctuary is where the people pray? The Temple would be the sanctuary. If the temple was defiled, Daniel would have just said "sanctuary." The fact that Daniel specifically tells us that the fortress is defiled should be a big clue to you.

You do realize that the word, "sacrifices" is in italics, don't you? Did they teach you what that means in Bible school? In case they didn't, it means the word isn't in the original text. It was added. So remove "sacrifice" and you have the "daily" being taken away. What do the Jews do daily at the Fortress or wall? They pray.

Daniel wrote this 2,500 years ago. He probably had no idea what it meant as he probably never envisioned a destroyed temple with a small portion of the wall left where people would pray for almost 2,000 years. Heck, you are here today and you have no clue either.

If you are a Muslim and you want to anger the Jews, what site would you desecrate? Wake up Quasar, the coffee is on.

You sure like to hear yourself rattle, don't you PW. Who do you think you are teaching, with the latest of your profound oracles? Since you enjoy writing classic fiction, please explain to us precisely what your point is. It has no bearing whatever on either the rapture of the Church or the tribulation that follows.


Quasar92

 

[Ahwatukee]

Pointless obsession?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

Just what do you think the "FORTRESS" of the sanctuary is where the people pray? The Temple would be the sanctuary. If the temple was defiled, Daniel would have just said "sanctuary." The fact that Daniel specifically tells us that the fortress is defiled should be a big clue to you.

You do realize that the word, "sacrifices" is in italics, don't you? Did they teach you what that means in Bible school? In case they didn't, it means the word isn't in the original text. It was added. So remove "sacrifice" and you have the "daily" being taken away. What do the Jews do daily at the Fortress or wall? They pray.

Daniel wrote this 2,500 years ago. He probably had no idea what it meant as he probably never envisioned a destroyed temple with a small portion of the wall left where people would pray for almost 2,000 years. Heck, you are here today and you have no clue either.

If you are a Muslim and you want to anger the Jews, what site would you desecrate? Wake up Quasar, the coffee is on.

PW, first of all, the wiling wall is not God's official place for prayer. People pray there because the temple was destroyed. The wailing wall is not what is being referred to as "Fortress." All you are doing is what you always do, which is to misapply scripture. For you "Fortress" equals "Wailing Wall," but in your own mind only.

As we have continued to tell you, it is the holy place of the temple yet to be built, in which the abomination will be set up in the holy of hollies. This is all going to take place in the middle of the seven, just as recorded in scripture.

The ruler, that antichrist, by establishing the covenant will allow Israel to build her temple and begin to sacrifice once again, where they are stopped in the middle of the seven. You don't believe, because misinterpret the rest of the scripture in order to fit your wailing wall and Muslim theories. The antichrist is the one who is going to make it possible for Israel to begin their worship according to what is written in the law given by God through Moses.

Once the church has been removed, God is going to pick up with Israel right where he left off, in fulfillment of that last seven years according to the decree of seventy 'sevens.' I know that you don't believe it, so you're going to have to find out for yourself when you see it happen.

* The Lord appears and gathers the church

* Antichrist makes a firm covenant for one 'seven'

* In the middle of the seven, he puts and end to sacrifice and offerings and sets up an abomination that causes desolation

The following is what is prophesied regarding God's coming wrath:

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth, When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,

declares the ​

Lord​

. ​

I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”

And below is how He is going to accomplish it:

Seals, trumpet and bowl judgments

 

[PlainWord]

You sure like to hear yourself rattle, don't you PW. Who do you think you are teaching, with the latest of your profound oracles? Since you enjoy writing classic fiction, please explain to us precisely what your point is. It has no bearing whatever on either the rapture of the Church or the tribulation that follows.


Quasar92

If that is your view then you've either never read Dan 11-12 or simply lack the intelligence to understand it. There is not going to be a third man-made temple in Jerusalem. The defiling of the western wall has everything to do with the Great Tribulation of Israel!! It's the event that starts the 1,290 day clock to the Abomination of Desolation which ushers in the GT. Here, read it for yourself:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Call Daniel (and by extension God) a liar if you want. As for the Rapture of the Church, it comes here:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The defiling of the western wall has everything to do with the Great Tribulation of Israel!!

The wailing wall cannot be defiled!!! If that were true, then it would be defiled everyday because everybody and his brother goes there and has been there. There will indeed be another temple. Just keep watching.

Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

That is not the rapture of the church. During the 30 and 45 days past the 3 1/2 year mark, events pertaining to judgment and the millennial kingdom will be taking place. It is because of your misunderstanding of God's wrath and end-time events that is the cause of your error. Just keep watching. When you see the church gathered and the a political figure establish a seven year covenant with Israel, then you will know that you were wrong.

 

[PlainWord]

PW, first of all, the wiling wall is not God's official place for prayer. People pray there because the temple was destroyed.

Don't you think I know that?

The wailing wall is not what is being referred to as "Fortress." All you are doing is what you always do, which is to misapply scripture. For you "Fortress" equals "Wailing Wall," but in your own mind only.

The "fortress" was the wall that went around the sanctuary (Temple). The wailing wall is the only part of the original wall from Herod. The only other fortress in Jerusalem which could be defiled would be the Antonia Fortress but nobody worships there. Daniel's description fits the wailing wall perfectly.

As we have continued to tell you, it is the holy place of the temple yet to be built, in which the abomination will be set up in the holy of hollies. This is all going to take place in the middle of the seven, just as recorded in scripture.

This is false. You guys are dead wrong. Daniel makes clear that the temple would remain desolate even until God's consuming wrath is poured out.

Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

Neither Daniel or Jesus used the word "temple" in association with the Abomination of Desolation.

The ruler, that antichrist, by establishing the covenant will allow Israel to build her temple and begin to sacrifice once again, where they are stopped in the middle of the seven. You don't believe, because misinterpret the rest of the scripture in order to fit your wailing wall and Muslim theories. The antichrist is the one who is going to make it possible for Israel to begin their worship according to what is written in the law given by God through Moses.

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA. You crack me up. None of this is taught. Do you really think the world will allow animal sacrifices to begin again??? Do you think God would???? That would be as offensive as whatever the Abomination itself is. Heck I would try to stop them from doing that.

* The Lord appears and gathers the church

* Antichrist makes a firm covenant for one 'seven'

* In the middle of the seven, he puts and end to sacrifice and offerings and sets up an abomination that causes desolation

Here's what really happens.

1. Wailing Wall Defiled or destroyed ending prayers
2. 1290 days later, Israel is attacked by overwhelming Islamic (and perhaps Russian) forces.
3. Brutal fighting in Israel lasts for up to 45 days with 2/3 of all Jews killed.
4. Christ returns

The following is what is prophesied regarding God's coming wrath:

God's wrath comes after the Tribulation, correct. He rescues the 1/3 remnant of Israel which survived. He splits the Mount of Olives allowing the 1/3 to flee through the mountain valley to Azal. Then:

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

This is your rapture!

 

[PlainWord]

The wailing wall cannot be defiled!!! If that were true, then it would be defiled everyday because everybody and his brother goes there and has been there. There will indeed be another temple. Just keep watching.

The wailing wall has been defiled before, many times. For centuries the Muslims used to dump trash there. But the Jews have been going there to pray for centuries regardless.

There is no direct prophesy of a third man-made temple. Christ doesn't even mention it as a sign before His return in Mat 24 either. Instead Christ sends us to Daniel 11 and Daniel calls it a fortress of the sanctuary, i.e. WALL.

That is not the rapture of the church. During the 30 and 45 days past the 3 1/2 year mark, events pertaining to judgment and the millennial kingdom will be taking place. It is because of your misunderstanding of God's wrath and end-time events that is the cause of your error. Just keep watching. When you see the church gathered and the a political figure establish a seven year covenant with Israel, then you will know that you were wrong.

So you can join Quasar and state publicly that if you see the wailing wall defiled and prayers cease that you will admit you were wrong about your rapture thingy. Agreed? On that day you will come to me and say, "PW, please tell me what happens next." Knowledge will increase and you guys will be playing catch up. A year or so later we will have a good laugh and I will say to you, "Remember when you guys used to talk all the time about the rapture? You guys used to argue so passionately. Man you drove me crazy with all that nonsense." Then you will apologize and I will forgive you.

 

[Quasar92]

If that is your view then you've either never read Dan 11-12 or simply lack the intelligence to understand it. There is not going to be a third man-made temple in Jerusalem. The defiling of the western wall has everything to do with the Great Tribulation of Israel!! It's the event that starts the 1,290 day clock to the Abomination of Desolation which ushers in the GT. Here, read it for yourself:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Call Daniel (and by extension God) a liar if you want. As for the Rapture of the Church, it comes here:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Don't try emptying your vitriolic diatribe on me, PW! You don't have clue as to what Dan.11 and 12 are all about. Furthermore, I have a Masters in the study of Prophecy/eschatology, FYI, earned qualifications to teach the Bible, which you would try having us all to believe, that you are, without any such qualification! The wailing wall you are so obsessed with will be nothing but ruble, from the earthquake that takes place at Jesus second coming. There will be TWO more temples built in Jerusalem, yet to take place! One during the tribulation and the other one by Jesus himself, for the final Millennium, as recorded in Dan.9:27, 2 Thess.2:4, Rev.11:1-2 and Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47. If you want to arue with me, you had better do it with supporting Scripture!


Quasar92

 

[masmpg]

Don't try emptying your vitriolic diatribe on me, PW! You don't have clue as to what Dan.11 and 12 are all about. Furthermore, I have a Masters in the study of Prophecy/eschatology, FYI, earned qualifications to teach the Bible, which you would try having us all to believe, that you are, without any such qualification! The wailing wall you are so obsessed with will be nothing but ruble, from the earthquake that takes place at Jesus second coming. There will be TWO more temples built in Jerusalem, yet to take place! One during the tribulation and the other one by Jesus himself, for the final Millennium, as recorded in Dan.9:27, 2 Thess.2:4, Rev.11:1-2 and Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47. If you want to arue with me, you had better do it with supporting Scripture!
Quasar92

To brag about credentials does not seem like a good thing to me. The disciples had no degree from the schools of the prophets, which the pharisees tried in every way to get Jesus into. Of all the bible characters there were very few that were actually either rich or well educated, and three of those were murderers. Moses, David and Paul were murderers. Quite ironic that the most popular bible characters were murderers. But along with these there was Solomon as the rich and learned characters of the bible. Daniel could be added because he was trained in Babylonian ways. I feel much blessed because God can use such a sinner like me to share His truth, and He gave us examples throughout the whole bible that He always used errant man to do His work.

Personally I prefer to admit that I am a lowly fisher of men like the only people that followed Jesus to the cross. Jesus could have chosen the pharisees, the church leaders of His day. The leaders of the church that Jesus Himself set up through out the old testament. The pharisees were the outcome of generations of compromise and turning their backs on God, and Jesus wanted nothing to do with them. There are many modern pharisees today. What I try to do is pray about scripture because our understanding has very little to do with how God reveals truth to us. According to John 14:26 & 16:13 the Comforter guides us into all truth, and according to 1 John 2:27 we are not to let any man teach us, but we are to follow the commendation that Paul gave the Bereans for searching the scripture to see if what Paul said was truth.

 

[Quasar92]

To brag about credentials does not seem like a good thing to me. The disciples had no degree from the schools of the prophets, which the pharisees tried in every way to get Jesus into. Of all the bible characters there were very few that were actually either rich or well educated, and three of those were murderers. Moses, David and Paul were murderers. Quite ironic that the most popular bible characters were murderers. But along with these there was Solomon as the rich and learned characters of the bible. Daniel could be added because he was trained in Babylonian ways. I feel much blessed because God can use such a sinner like me to share His truth, and He gave us examples throughout the whole bible that He always used errant man to do His work.

Personally I prefer to admit that I am a lowly fisher of men like the only people that followed Jesus to the cross. Jesus could have chosen the pharisees, the church leaders of His day. The leaders of the church that Jesus Himself set up through out the old testament. The pharisees were the outcome of generations of compromise and turning their backs on God, and Jesus wanted nothing to do with them. There are many modern pharisees today. What I try to do is pray about scripture because our understanding has very little to do with how God reveals truth to us. According to John 14:26 & 16:13 the Comforter guides us into all truth, and according to 1 John 2:27 we are not to let any man teach us, but we are to follow the commendation that Paul gave the Bereans for searching the scripture to see if what Paul said was truth.

Give that lecture to PlainWord!


Quasar92

 

[PlainWord]

Don't try emptying your vitriolic diatribe on me, PW! You don't have clue as to what Dan.11 and 12 are all about. Furthermore, I have a Masters in the study of Prophecy/eschatology

Based on the views you espouse, your Masters isn't worth the paper it's written on. What a waste of an education!!

The wailing wall you are so obsessed with will be nothing but ruble, from the earthquake that takes place at Jesus second coming.

Maybe, who knows? But it gets defiled first ending prayers. Since there is no pre-trib return of Christ, the earthquake comes at the Second Coming, after the wall is defiled.

There will be TWO more temples built in Jerusalem

No there won't and nothing teaches this except you. God will never allow another temple to be built with human hands. Don't you know anything? What did David say which Jesus repeated, then Peter repeated and Luke?

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

This lesson is found SIX TIMES!! Do you really think after 1,946 years God is suddenly going to allow a new temple to be built? That would be like God saying, "Okay Jews, you win. You rejected my Son and I've given you 2,000 years. I give up, you win. Go ahead and build your new temple and I will honor it and call it 'holy'"

One during the tribulation and the other one by Jesus himself, for the final Millennium, as recorded in Dan.9:27, 2 Thess.2:4, Rev.11:1-2 and Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47. If you want to arue with me, you had better do it with supporting Scripture!

DONE!! You have a masters and yet have no concept of the spiritual temple of which we are all a part? I assume you are a Christian although your scriptural knowledge might indicate otherwise.

You really think that Eze 40-47 is discussing a literal future temple where animal sacrifices take place again? God basically had His Son put to death for nothing? Christ's blood loses its power in the millennium? Is that what you think? God gives into the ways the Jews wish to atone for sin? WOW!! I am dumbfounded that any true Christian can think this way. Christ's blood is sufficient for everyone and for all time!!! Christ's blood redeemed those before Him and those after Him. God is not re-instituting the Levitical system of worship and animal sacrifices after Jesus returns. If you think this, you really need to examine everything you think you know.

 

[PlainWord]

Give that lecture to PlainWord!


Quasar92

I echo masmpg,

I was a horrible sinner; maybe one step better than Saul, before he became Paul, as I didn't kill or persecute anyone. But man I was living in sin for many years before I got my life together. It was the Blood of Christ, ending the need for animal sacrifices, that saved me. Now you want to join the Jews and bring animal sacrifices back? You want to throw away the Cross. Have you really thought about what your views actually mean??????

I guess in your mind Christ's blood has an expiration date? I'm not one to call into question another's salvation and I'm not doing that here but you really worry me. Your views in many respects are anti-Christian. For instance:

Christ and the apostles taught that we are appointed to Tribulation and that we are to rejoice in it. Yet you teach we are to run from it.

You disrespect the persecuted church which makes up nearly 75% of the Church body. Your attitude is almost like you think they deserve it, that they are inferior to the non-persecuted church.

You espouse the view that there are classes of Christians, some who are part of the Bride, others who didn't make the cut and are left behind to be tortured and killed. Have you ever thought about how awful this view is? For our brothers and sisters suffering and dying in Syria and Iraq, in N. Korea and China, who don't know if each day will be their last, yet they stay true to Jesus and you mock them. ISIS is chopping of their heads, raping their children and they pray and persevere and remain faithful. Let me tell you, these Christians are GIANTS in the kingdom compared to me or you. We aren't to run away from Tribulation, we are to run to it!!

You teach that we sitting over here in America with our BMWs, big houses, timeshares and retirement plans get to leave earth in some secret rapture, while Israel gets absolutely crushed and the left behinders who didn't make the cut join them in torture. How can you think like that? What makes you or me, who have experienced little to no trouble for our faith more worthy than those who have been on the front lines?

Maybe, just maybe Quasar, God has sent me to you so late in your life to wake you up to a few things that you've had wrong all these years. masmpg is right, you are acting like a haughty, know-it-all Pharisee. But its not too late to change and take stock. The meek inherit the earth. The wise are brought to shame.

Maybe I'm coming across as arrogant and haughty too, if I am, I apologize. I speak with passion because the views of some of you are so gross and disgusting, i.e. creating classes of Christians some to be raptured, others who deserve to be beheaded, bringing back animal sacrifices rending the Cross as worthless, things like that. These views make me sick. All of us have sinned and fallen short. All the degrees in the world won't get you to heaven. God judges the hearts of men.

 

[popeye]

Give that lecture to PlainWord!


Quasar92

BTW,You never said where you were mentored and by whom,and where you received your degree.

If I was doing a commercial about myself,why would that component be a secret?

 

[popeye]

"I do believe that the church must be removed prior to the man of lawlessness, that antichrist, is revealed"

When do you think this happens?
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

It goes on to say that the AC kills them all.

No saints "go through" the GT.

And look at "overcome". It basically sys they die. Overcome =die

 

[Ahwatukee]

It goes on to say that the AC kills them all.

No saints "go through" the GT.

And look at "overcome". It basically sys they die. Overcome =die

Morning popeye,

We've talked about this issue before. If you have all of the Gentiles being killed by the AC so that not one survives, then that would be the end of everyone except Israel. For there would no Gentiles to go into the millennial period and repopulate it. Yet, scripture records that, when Christ returns to the earth, the nations will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. This would demonstrate that there will indeed be mortal Gentiles on the earth during the millennial period. Another scripture says "Any of the nations that do not come up to Jerusalem to worship, they will receive no rain. These are just a few examples and there are many more. Therefore, the AC cannot kill all of the great tribulation saints.

 

[Quasar92]

BTW,You never said where you were mentored and by whom,and where you received your degree.

If I was doing a commercial about myself,why would that component be a secret?

FYI, I have posted that info on this site previously. That you failed t see it is not my responsibility. There are two degrees , one from each of two Bible Colleges. The first one was in 1942, before I went into the USAAF Air Corp. Air Transport Command, and served two years in the Pacific/Asiatic theater during WWII.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Based on the views you espouse, your Masters isn't worth the paper it's written on. What a waste of an education!!



Maybe, who knows? But it gets defiled first ending prayers. Since there is no pre-trib return of Christ, the earthquake comes at the Second Coming, after the wall is defiled.



No there won't and nothing teaches this except you. God will never allow another temple to be built with human hands. Don't you know anything? What did David say which Jesus repeated, then Peter repeated and Luke?

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

This lesson is found SIX TIMES!! Do you really think after 1,946 years God is suddenly going to allow a new temple to be built? That would be like God saying, "Okay Jews, you win. You rejected my Son and I've given you 2,000 years. I give up, you win. Go ahead and build your new temple and I will honor it and call it 'holy'"



DONE!! You have a masters and yet have no concept of the spiritual temple of which we are all a part? I assume you are a Christian although your scriptural knowledge might indicate otherwise.

You really think that Eze 40-47 is discussing a literal future temple where animal sacrifices take place again? God basically had His Son put to death for nothing? Christ's blood loses its power in the millennium? Is that what you think? God gives into the ways the Jews wish to atone for sin? WOW!! I am dumbfounded that any true Christian can think this way. Christ's blood is sufficient for everyone and for all time!!! Christ's blood redeemed those before Him and those after Him. God is not re-instituting the Levitical system of worship and animal sacrifices after Jesus returns. If you think this, you really need to examine everything you think you know.

Just keep posting PW, and the trash just keeps piling up, with your exercise in the futility of interpreting from allegorical fiction. First of all, there will be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:16-17 and in 2 Thess,2:3 and 7-8! Supposing you explain to me, how come, the Church returns with Jesus from their marriage in heaven, the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, according to Rev.19:7-8, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in His armies from heaven, recorded in verse 14, if there is no pre-trib rapture of the Church you falsely claim!

Then explain to me why Paul wrote to us in 2 Thess.2:4 about the AC claiming he is God in the third tribulation temple and is being measure in Rev.11:1-2, if there is no more temples as you falsely claim!

Then you can exp-lain to me why God has proclaimed the builder of His fourth temple during the !,000 year reign of Chr9st, will be Jesus Himself, as recorded in Zech.6:12-13, described in Ez.40-47.. The dimmensions of that temple do not correspoond in any way to those of the first or second of Israel's temples! And yes, the Bible makes it clear, there will be a renewal of the animal sacrificing system, as you find there, as well as in Zech.14. Undoubtedly to teach Israel what they were originaly for, each of them, in the emulation of those things Jesus fulfilled in addition ton that which has not yet been fulfilled.

Now you've got work to do in providing a Scripturally based response to the above that has busted your false claims!


Quasar92

 

[masmpg]

I echo masmpg,

I was a horrible sinner; maybe one step better than Saul, before he became Paul, as I didn't kill or persecute anyone. But man I was living in sin for many years before I got my life together. It was the Blood of Christ, ending the need for animal sacrifices, that saved me. Now you want to join the Jews and bring animal sacrifices back? You want to throw away the Cross. Have you really thought about what your views actually mean??????

I guess in your mind Christ's blood has an expiration date? I'm not one to call into question another's salvation and I'm not doing that here but you really worry me. Your views in many respects are anti-Christian. For instance:

Christ and the apostles taught that we are appointed to Tribulation and that we are to rejoice in it. Yet you teach we are to run from it.

You disrespect the persecuted church which makes up nearly 75% of the Church body. Your attitude is almost like you think they deserve it, that they are inferior to the non-persecuted church.

You espouse the view that there are classes of Christians, some who are part of the Bride, others who didn't make the cut and are left behind to be tortured and killed. Have you ever thought about how awful this view is? For our brothers and sisters suffering and dying in Syria and Iraq, in N. Korea and China, who don't know if each day will be their last, yet they stay true to Jesus and you mock them. ISIS is chopping of their heads, raping their children and they pray and persevere and remain faithful. Let me tell you, these Christians are GIANTS in the kingdom compared to me or you. We aren't to run away from Tribulation, we are to run to it!!

You teach that we sitting over here in America with our BMWs, big houses, timeshares and retirement plans get to leave earth in some secret rapture, while Israel gets absolutely crushed and the left behinders who didn't make the cut join them in torture. How can you think like that? What makes you or me, who have experienced little to no trouble for our faith more worthy than those who have been on the front lines?

Maybe, just maybe Quasar, God has sent me to you so late in your life to wake you up to a few things that you've had wrong all these years. masmpg is right, you are acting like a haughty, know-it-all Pharisee. But its not too late to change and take stock. The meek inherit the earth. The wise are brought to shame.

Maybe I'm coming across as arrogant and haughty too, if I am, I apologize. I speak with passion because the views of some of you are so gross and disgusting, i.e. creating classes of Christians some to be raptured, others who deserve to be beheaded, bringing back animal sacrifices rending the Cross as worthless, things like that. These views make me sick. All of us have sinned and fallen short. All the degrees in the world won't get you to heaven. God judges the hearts of men.

I appreciate this PlainWord. We all need to step back and look at ourselves as the sinners we are, and remove the beam before removing the splinter. I believe that when we get on our knees in the morning and ask God to forgive us for our sins we have the beam removed as long as our past sins are included in that forgiveness. Many people I have talked to say that they don't believe that they are worthy to call sin by its right name. I believe that is why the church is in the condition it is in. If we read the story of Achan in Joshua 7 and realize that to let sin exist in the church turns God's wrath on the whole congregation, even one supposedly "small" transgression like the case of Achan. Achan stole a piece of gold and some garments and caused God's blessing to be removed from the whole nation of Israel. Eve bit a piece of fruit and caused the downfall of the human race. To God there is NO small transgression. To allow open sin to exist in the church will cause the same effect as what Achan caused to the whole camp of Israel.

 

[garee]

It goes on to say that the AC kills them all.

No saints "go through" the GT.

And look at "overcome". It basically sys they die. Overcome =die

Perhaps no saint will be found guilty of their sin. If we do not suffer with Christ as in birth pains until he forms Christ in us then we simply do not have the Spirit of Christ.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.2Ti 2:12

Being overcame does not equal death. as to the things of men "us" it can mean "no faith" in respect to the things of God and therefore deny God who suffered in our stead. Doing our own suffering is the formula for the antichrists . Its why like Peter who needed the faith of Christ to increase in him while he must decrease Peter was called back by the faith of Christ having been turn he repented .By grace God did not sent him a delusion to believe they of lying satan influence over Peter when Satan over came Peter.

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an "offence" unto me: for thou savourest not "the things that be of God", but those that be of men.Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 16:23

 

[masmpg]

Perhaps no saint will be found guilty of their sin. If we do not suffer with Christ as in birth pains until he forms Christ in us then we simply do not have the Spirit of Christ.

When will we have "Christ formed in us"?

 

[popeye]

Morning popeye,

We've talked about this issue before. If you have all of the Gentiles being killed by the AC so that not one survives, then that would be the end of everyone except Israel. For there would no Gentiles to go into the millennial period and repopulate it. Yet, scripture records that, when Christ returns to the earth, the nations will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. This would demonstrate that there will indeed be mortal Gentiles on the earth during the millennial period. Another scripture says "Any of the nations that do not come up to Jerusalem to worship, they will receive no rain. These are just a few examples and there are many more. Therefore, the AC cannot kill all of the great tribulation saints.

He kills all refusing the mark,not all the gentiles.