Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[Quasar92]

I didnt get all too deep into it but people say its a ''cult''. From what ive read from em I have mixed feelings about it, when I got time ill dig deeper into it. For me it seems like another denomination

Hi Demi777,

I want to make it known to you and to all members, ,The Biblical Description of God that I present, is not the Oneness Pentecostal doctrine at all. Review the following, to see the difference:

The Biblical Description of God - in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Explain these verses then and don't dodge them

Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23

Equal honour = equality of being


“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26

To have the prerogative of life is God's alone.


Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18

no one had ever dared to speak of My Father. He alone could claim Him as My Father.


“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58#

Jesus here claims the Name of God.


Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9

Jesus made clear that to have seen Him was to have seen God in another form.


“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)




John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).


The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19


And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)


He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15


In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9


Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13


When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6


In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).


Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3


He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.


Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28

To deny the Godhead of Jesus is to invalidate His sacrifice as being sufficient for the sins of the whole world.

Show me where I have denied Jesus being the Son of God/God the Son anywhere at this site! Read Jn.14:28 and 17:3 together with Pr.8:22-36 and Col.1:15 to learn who Jesus is. In addition to Ps.45:6-7 and Heb.1:9.

Your above contribution is Scripturally correct, but goes nowhere in attempting to prove the bogus doctrine of the Trinity. YHWH abd Y'Shua are two vey separate individuals, though one in Spirit, as all believers are to them both!


Quasar92

 

[Demi777]

Well I go to an A/G Pentecostal church and it's not a cult. Don't know about all Pentecostal churches in the U.S. but mine and surrounding churches are not a cult. I can promise you that

I am pentecostal charismatic too. No need to promise anything to me lol

 

[Magenta]

I am a child of God

 

[jaybird88]

How do we know jaybird? Well for one thing Jesus Christ does not correct Thomas and say I am not your "Lord and God." To ascribe these two titles to Jesus Christ "Lord & God" is the highest essence of worship. And did you notice God did not ascribe the title "Lord" to Moses? Did you also notice that Moses was never accused or even convicted of blasphemy?

i dont think there was a correction because no one there believed thomes was suggesting the Son is the Most High.
the context of the passage is many are in disbelief that Jesus was resurrected. there is no discussion among any of them that maybe Jesus is the All High, the discussion and doubt had to do with was Jesus really the Son, the Christ, came back from the dead.
then you get to the end of the passage:
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. [SUP]31 [/SUP]But these are written that you may believe[SUP][b][/SUP] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
the passage was written to prove that Jesus is the Christ, the Son. it makes no mention that its purpose is to prove Jesus is the Most High.

You also brought up the issue of "greetings?" Ok, how do you know the following greeting is correct? "Simot Peter a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by (or how jaybird?) the righteousness OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST." 2 Peter 1:2. How come God the Father is not mentioned in this greeting jaybird?

how do you know he is not referring to two individuals, the Most High, and the Son. the next passage IMO would indicate that

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

And lastly regarding your last sentence, "it simply meant the Son could be full of the Father but it doesnt necessarily make the Son the Father. i think its more complex." NO one that I know of or at least no trinitarian teaches that the Son is the Father. That is what oneness Pentecostals teach and that is one of the reasons they are a "cult." The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father. In fact, God the Father is not the Holy Spirit nor is the Holy Spirit the Father as quasar teaches. Now what are your excuses going to be for saying I'm wrong?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

i dont agree but that does not mean you are wrong.

 

[Magenta]

I am an aunt to some people, a cousin to others, a niece to some, a daughter to my mother and a mother to my daughter, and a sister to my siblings. I think the distinctions of Person are along those sort of lines of relationship, though, hmmm, yeah, we have trouble really grasping it, Hank Hanegraff says we can apprehend it without fully comprehending it. There are many Scriptures that speak of God being the only one and then Jesus is also said to be those same things, such as the Rock of our salvation, the first and last, Alpha and Omega etc. I can post some of them again...

Scripture clearly portrays subject/object relationships between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. For example, the Father and Son love one another, speak to each other (John 17:1–26), and together send the Holy Spirit (John 15:26). Additionally, Jesus proclaims that he and the Father are two distinct witnesses and two distinct judges (John 8:14–18). If Jesus were himself the Father, his argument would have been not only irrelevant but also fatally flawed; and if such were the case, he could not have been fully God.

It is important to note that when Trinitarians speak of one God they are referring to the nature or essence of God. Moreover, when they speak of persons they are referring to personal self-distinctions within the Godhead. Put another way, we believe in one What and three Who’s. Is the Trinity biblical? - Christian Research Institute

 

[Magenta]

Jesus is the living Word of God, and the Word became flesh. He is eternal. He is the creator of the universe, the author and finisher of our faith, the great architect, the giver of life, in Whom all things live and move.

Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor,Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He.Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1(Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Isaiah 44:24 -(God created the world by Himself alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1 -In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM [He], you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58- Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5-6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Colossians 2:9 - For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8-9 - But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and theLast.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

1 Timothy 6:14-16 - “our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”

 

[Magenta]

Jesus is the Rock of our salvation. God is the only Rock of our salvation.

Psalm 78:35
And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

Genesis 49:24
But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

Deuteronomy 32:15
"But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek-- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

2 Samuel 23:3
"The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me, 'He who rules over men righteously, Who rules in the fear of God,

Psalm 42:9
I will say to God my rock, "Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?"

Isaiah 30:29
You will have songs as in the night when you keep the festival, And gladness of heart as when one marches to the sound of the flute, To go to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

Habakkuk 1:12
Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.

2 Samuel 22:32
"For who is God, besides the LORD? And who is a rock, besides our God?

Psalm 18:31
For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 44:8
'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"

Deuteronomy 32:31
"Indeed their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves judge this.

Deuteronomy 32:37
"And He will say, 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?

Psalm 144:1
Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle;

Deuteronomy 32:4
"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 92:15
To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

Psalm 62:7
On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.

Psalm 28:1
To You, O LORD, I call; My rock, do not be deaf to me, For if You are silent to me, I will become like those who go down to the pit.

Psalm 31:1-3
In You, O LORD, I have taken refuge; Let me never be ashamed; In Your righteousness deliver me. Incline Your ear to me, rescue me quickly; Be to me a rock of strength, A stronghold to save me. For You are my rock and my fortress; For Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.

Psalm 61:2
From the end of the earth I call to You when my heart is faint; Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.

Psalm 71:3
Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

Isaiah 26:4
"Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.

Psalm 94:22
But the LORD has been my stronghold, And my God the rock of my refuge.

2 Samuel 22:3
My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

Psalm 18:2
The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalm 95:1
O come, let us sing for joy to the LORD, Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.

2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be God, the rock of my salvation,

Psalm 18:46
The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be the God of my salvation,

To be Continued

 

[Magenta]

Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 62:2
He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken.

Psalm 89:26
"He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'

Isaiah 17:10
For you have forgotten the God of your salvation And have not remembered the rock of your refuge. Therefore you plant delightful plants And set them with vine slips of a strange god.

Isaiah 8:14
"Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Psalm 118:22
The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone.

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

Mark 12:10
"Have you not even read this Scripture: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;

Luke 20:17
But Jesus looked at them and said, "What then is this that is written: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone'?

Acts 4:11
"He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.

1 Peter 2:6-7
For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"

Matthew 21:44
"And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

Luke 20:18
"Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

Romans 9:32-33
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

1 Peter 2:4-8
And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

 

[Magenta]

The Bible never records Jesus saying the precise words, “I am God.” That does not mean, however, that He did not proclaim that He is God. Take for example Jesus’ words in John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.” We need only to look at the Jews’ reaction to His statement to know He was claiming to be God. They tried to stone Him for this very reason: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). The Jews understood exactly what Jesus was claiming—deity. When Jesus declared, “I and the Father are one,” He was saying that He and the Father are of one nature and essence. John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth … before Abraham was born, I am!” Jews who heard this statement responded by taking up stones to kill Him for blasphemy, as the Mosaic Law commanded (Leviticus 24:16).

John reiterates the concept of Jesus’ deity: “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). These verses clearly indicate that Jesus is God in the flesh. Acts 20:28 tells us, “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Who bought the church with His own blood? Jesus Christ. And this same verse declares that God purchased His church with His own blood. Therefore, Jesus is God!

Thomas the disciple declared concerning Jesus, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). Jesus does not correct him. Titus 2:13 encourages us to wait for the coming of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ (see also 2 Peter 1:1). In Hebrews 1:8, the Father declares of Jesus, “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The Father refers to Jesus as “O God,” indicating that Jesus is indeed God.

In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death. I hope that helps https://gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

 

[Magenta]

Question: "Is Jesus God in the flesh? Why is it important that Jesus is God in the flesh?"

Answer: Since Jesus’ conception by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin Mary (Luke 1:26-38), the real identity of Jesus Christ has always been questioned by skeptics. It began with Mary's fiancé, Joseph, who was afraid to marry her when she revealed that she was pregnant (Matthew 1:18-24). He took her as his wife only after the angel confirmed to him that the child she carried was the Son of God.

Hundreds of years before the birth of Christ, the prophet Isaiah foretold the coming of God's Son: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isaiah 9:6). When the angel spoke to Joseph and announced the impending birth of Jesus, he alluded to Isaiah’s prophecy: "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel (which means ‘God with us’)" (Matthew 1:23). This did not mean they were to name the baby Immanuel; it meant that "God with us" was the baby’s identity. Jesus was God coming in the flesh to dwell with man.

Jesus Himself understood the speculation about His identity. He asked His disciples, "Who do people say that I am?" (Matthew 16:13; Mark 8:27). The answers varied, as they do today. Then Jesus asked a more pressing question: "Who do you say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15). Peter gave the right answer: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16). Jesus affirmed the truth of Peter’s answer and promised that, upon that truth, He would build His church (Matthew 16:18).

The true nature and identity of Jesus Christ has eternal significance. Every person must answer the question Jesus asked His disciples: "Who do you say that I am?"

He gave us the correct answer in many ways. In John 14:9-10, Jesus said, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

The Bible is clear about the divine nature of the Lord Jesus Christ (see John 1:1-14). Philippians 2:6-7 says that, although Jesus was "in very nature God, He did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." Colossians 2:9 says, “In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

Jesus is fully God and fully man, and the fact of His incarnation is of utmost importance. He lived a human life but did not possess a sin nature as we do. He was tempted but never sinned (Hebrews 2:14-18; 4:15). Sin entered the world through Adam, and Adam’s sinful nature has been transferred to every baby born into the world (Romans 5:12)—except for Jesus. Because Jesus did not have a human father, He did not inherit a sin nature. He possessed the divine nature from His Heavenly Father.

Jesus had to meet all the requirements of a holy God before He could be an acceptable sacrifice for our sin (John 8:29; Hebrews 9:14). He had to fulfill over three hundred prophecies about the Messiah that God, through the prophets, had foretold (Matthew 4:13-14; Luke 22:37; Isaiah 53; Micah 5:2).

Since the fall of man (Genesis 3:21-23), the only way to be made right with God has been the blood of an innocent sacrifice (Leviticus 9:2; Numbers 28:19; Deuteronomy 15:21;Hebrews 9:22). Jesus was the final, perfect sacrifice that satisfied forever God's wrath against sin (Hebrews 10:14). His divine nature made Him fit for the work of Redeemer; His human body allowed Him to shed the blood necessary to redeem. No human being with a sin nature could pay such a debt. No one else could meet the requirements to become the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world (Matthew 26:28; 1 John 2:2). If Jesus were merely a good man as some claim, then He had a sin nature and was not perfect. In that case, His death and resurrection would have no power to save anyone.

Because Jesus was God in the flesh, He alone could pay the debt we owed to God. His victory over death and the grave won the victory for everyone who puts their trust in Him (John 1:12; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 17). https://gotquestions.org/God-in-the-flesh.html

 

[Magenta]

Question: "If Jesus was God, how could He pray to God?
Was Jesus praying to Himself?"

Answer: To understand Jesus as God on earth praying to His Father in heaven, we need to realize that the eternal Father and the eternal Son had an eternal relationship before Jesus took upon Himself the form of a man. Please read John 5:19-27, particularly verse 23 where Jesus teaches that the Father sent the Son (also see John 15:10). Jesus did not become the Son of God when He was born in Bethlehem. He has always been the Son of God from eternity past, still is the Son of God, and always will be.

Isaiah 9:6 tells us that the Son was given and the Child was born. Jesus was always part of the tri-unity, along with the Holy Spirit. The tri-unity always existed, the Father God, the Son God, and the Spirit God, not three gods, but one God existing as three persons. Jesus taught that He and His Father are one (John 10:30), meaning that He and His Father are of the same substance and the same essence. The Father, Son and Spirit are three co-equal persons existing as God. These three had, and continue to have, an eternal relationship.

When Jesus, the eternal Son of God, took upon Himself sinless humanity He also took on the form of a servant, giving up His heavenly glory (Philippians 2:5-11). As the God-man, He had to learn obedience (Hebrews 5:8) to His Father as He was tempted by Satan, accused falsely by men, rejected by His people, and eventually crucified. His praying to His heavenly Father was to ask for power (John 11:41-42) and wisdom (Mark 1:35,6:46). His praying showed His dependence upon His Father in His humanity to carry out His Father's plan of redemption, as evidenced in Christ's high priestly prayer in John 17. His praying demonstrated that He ultimately submitted to His Father's will, which was to go to the cross and pay the penalty (death) for our breaking God's law (Matthew 26:31-46). Of course, He rose bodily from the grave, winning forgiveness and eternal life for those who repent of sin and believe in Him as the Savior.

There is no problem with God the Son praying or talking to God the Father. As mentioned, they had an eternal relationship before Christ became a man. This relationship is depicted in the Gospels so we can see how the Son of God in His humanity carried out His Father's will, and in doing so, purchased redemption for His children (John 6:38). Christ’s continual submission to His heavenly Father was empowered and kept focused through His prayer life. Christ’s example of prayer is ours to follow.

Jesus Christ was no less God on earth when praying to His Father in heaven. He was depicting how even in sinless humanity it is necessary to have a vital prayer life in order to do His Father’s will. Jesus' praying to the Father was a demonstration of His relationship within the Trinity and an example for us that we must rely on God through prayer for the strength and wisdom we need. Since Christ, as the God-man, needed to have a vibrant prayer life, so should the follower of Christ today. https://gotquestions.org/Jesus-pray-God.html

 

[bluto]

and? let oneness pentecostals preach what they want. Its a fact that the trinity isnt in the bible. The trinity came from the catholic church, then people started saying Godhead and kept making up more and more ways to dodge the people saying ''how come your condemn the heathens for having more than one God, you have 3 yourself''.
Like you said, Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not Holy Spirit. For me they are 3 different persons. Plus there are the 7 spirits of God as well so we should have a tenity, not a trinity.
Where is the problem that some people do not believe the trinity is true? If God and Jesus were the same then why did he come and say ''this is my son in whom I am well pleased''. why did Jesus say ''pray to my father (lords prayer), etc.
Lets just accept that people arent all the same and we all have different revelations. Slamming people with bible verses trying to corner them will not solve the discussion.

Tell me demi, are the following verses in your Bible? Actually I should rephrase that and say have you read the following verses in your Bible?


Matthew 7:15-21, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. vs16, You will know them by their fruits. What fruits is Jesus talking about demi? vs21, Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven; but e who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Vs22, Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?"

And what does Jesus say next? Vs23, "And then I will declare to them, "I NEVER KNEW YOU." So again demi, what are you and I to do when we spot or come across false prophets and how do you spot them? Then there is the Apostle Paul at Acts 20:27-31m "For I did not SHRINK from delcaring to you the whole purpose of God. Vs28, Be on guar4d for yourselves and for all the flock, amng which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood,

Vs29, I know that after my departure savage wolves will comin in among you, not sparing the flock; vs30, and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. Vs31, Therefore BE ON THE ALERT, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not CEASE admonish each one with tears." Paul is saying that the Church will not only be attacked from within, but also from outside of the Church. Who do you think these so-called wolves are that are in the Churches today demi?

And about the admonishing in the Old Testament? "When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; AND YOU DO NOT WARN HIM OR SPEAK OUT TO WARN THE WICKED from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND." Vs19, "YET IF YOU HAVE WAREND THE WICKED, and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have been delivered."

And how about one more verse of waringing from the New Testament at Jude vs3, "Beloved, while I was making every effore to write you about our common salvatiobn, I FELT THE NECESSITY TO WRITE TO YOU APPEALING THAT YOU CONTEND EARNESLTY FOR THE FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIEVER TO THE SAINTS." So how do we contend for the faith demi? Is it as you said, "let oneness pentecostals preach what they want?" And "Lets just accept that people arent all the same and we all have differenct revelations." Really! If people have different revelations as you said then how do we determine that their "so-called" revelations are correct as opposed to say my understanding of scripture?

Remember what Jesus said about fruit? How are we to be good fruit inspectors demi? What do we look for? And lastly, you incorrect on the history of the trinity which I will explain later. Furthermore, please supply your sources on the trinity that it was invented by the Catholic Church?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[HisHolly]

Tell me demi, are the following verses in your Bible? Actually I should rephrase that and say have you read the following verses in your Bible?


Matthew 7:15-21, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. vs16, You will know them by their fruits. What fruits is Jesus talking about demi? vs21, Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven; but e who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Vs22, Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?"

And what does Jesus say next? Vs23, "And then I will declare to them, "I NEVER KNEW YOU." So again demi, what are you and I to do when we spot or come across false prophets and how do you spot them? Then there is the Apostle Paul at Acts 20:27-31m "For I did not SHRINK from delcaring to you the whole purpose of God. Vs28, Be on guar4d for yourselves and for all the flock, amng which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood,

Vs29, I know that after my departure savage wolves will comin in among you, not sparing the flock; vs30, and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. Vs31, Therefore BE ON THE ALERT, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not CEASE admonish each one with tears." Paul is saying that the Church will not only be attacked from within, but also from outside of the Church. Who do you think these so-called wolves are that are in the Churches today demi?

And about the admonishing in the Old Testament? "When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; AND YOU DO NOT WARN HIM OR SPEAK OUT TO WARN THE WICKED from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, BUT HIS BLOOD I WILL REQUIRE AT YOUR HAND." Vs19, "YET IF YOU HAVE WAREND THE WICKED, and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have been delivered."

And how about one more verse of waringing from the New Testament at Jude vs3, "Beloved, while I was making every effore to write you about our common salvatiobn, I FELT THE NECESSITY TO WRITE TO YOU APPEALING THAT YOU CONTEND EARNESLTY FOR THE FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE FOR ALL DELIEVER TO THE SAINTS." So how do we contend for the faith demi? Is it as you said, "let oneness pentecostals preach what they want?" And "Lets just accept that people arent all the same and we all have differenct revelations." Really! If people have different revelations as you said then how do we determine that their "so-called" revelations are correct as opposed to say my understanding of scripture?

Remember what Jesus said about fruit? How are we to be good fruit inspectors demi? What do we look for? And lastly, you incorrect on the history of the trinity which I will explain later. Furthermore, please supply your sources on the trinity that it was invented by the Catholic Church?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Have you spent much time in Proverbs? It will do you good.
All these quarrels and many words are for fools.
Truth does not badger and beat.
You support your understanding, cool. Unfortunately understanding in our mind by our own intelligence does nothing. Holy Spirit must open it up to you or you know no mysteries contained within.
His sheep hear His voice. If you want to represent Him and get His point across, if it is His, you must do it by the Spirit. A stranger they will not follow.

 

[valiant]

You also brought up the issue of "greetings?" Ok, how do you know the following greeting is correct? "Simot Peter a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by (or how jaybird?) the righteousness OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST." 2 Peter 1:2. How come God the Father is not mentioned in this greeting jaybird?

how do you know he is not referring to two individuals, the Most High, and the Son. the next passage IMO would indicate that

Because exactly the same Greek phrase is found in verse 11 which refers to 'our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ' except that kurios replace theos.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Explain these verses then and don't dodge them

Jesus said, 'That all may honour the Son AS they honour the Father. He who does not honour the Son (as they honour the Father), does not honour the Father Who sent Him.' John 5.23

Equal honour = equality of being


“For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself” John 5.26

To have the prerogative of life is God's alone.


Jesus answered them, “MY Father is working still and I am working.” This was why the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God John 5.17-18

no one had ever dared to speak of My Father. He alone could claim Him as My Father.


“Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM” John 8.58#

Jesus here claims the Name of God.


Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know Me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, Show us the Father. John 14.9

Jesus made clear that to have seen Him was to have seen God in another form.


“And this is life eternal, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ Whom You have sent – and now, Father, glorify Me with the glory which I had with You before the world was” (John 17.5)




John said, 'In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was face to face with God, and What God was the Word was, – and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1.1, 14).


The risen Jesus said, “Baptising them in the (one) Name (YHWH) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28.19


And for us there is ONE GOD, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and ONE LORD through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist 1 Corinthians 8.6 (in contrast with the many gods and lords)


He is the IMAGE of the invisible God, the firstBORN before the whole of creation Colossians 1.15


In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form Colossians 2.9


Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ Titus 2.13


When the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared, – which He poured out upon us through Jesus Christ our Saviour Titus 3.4, 6


In the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ – of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Peter 1.1 ,11 (exactly parallel in the Greek).


Who being the outshining of His glory and the exact representation of His substance Heb 1.3


He is the SON in contrast to all angels Heb 1.4 following.


Thomas called Him, “my LORD and my God”. John 20.28

To deny the Godhead of Jesus is to invalidate His sacrifice as being sufficient for the sins of the whole world.

Show me where I have denied Jesus being the Son of God/God the Son anywhere at this site! Read Jn.14:28 and 17:3 together with Pr.8:22-36 and Col.1:15 to learn who Jesus is. In addition to Ps.45:6-7 and Heb.1:9.

Your above contribution is Scripturally correct, but goes nowhere in attempting to prove the bogus doctrine of the Trinity. YHWH abd Y'Shua are two vey separate individuals, though one in Spirit, as all believers are to them both!


Quasar92

You have denied His Godhood when you have claimed that He was a created being. You have denied His Godhead when you have denied that He is co-equal and coeternal. You make Him a demi-god.

Yeshua IS YHWH. That is why He is constantly called the LORD Jesus Christ. YHWH was translated by Lord. And He is clearly shown to be YHWH in John 12.41. And in John 8.58.

In YHWH there are three persona, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Mat 28.19).

The verses I cite above prove it further.

 

[valiant]

i dont think there was a correction because no one there believed thomas was suggesting the Son is the Most High.

He said 'My Lord and my God'. That indicated he had suddenly seen Jesus as just that. Every decent Bible Scholar would agree that that was what Thomas was saying

the context of the passage is many are in disbelief that Jesus was resurrected. there is no discussion among any of them that maybe Jesus is the All High, the discussion and doubt had to do with was Jesus really the Son, the Christ, came back from the dead.

No they show that Thomas knew that He was God Most High

 

[valiant]

Have you spent much time in Proverbs? It will do you good.
All these quarrels and many words are for fools.
Truth does not badger and beat.
You support your understanding, cool. Unfortunately understanding in our mind by our own intelligence does nothing. Holy Spirit must open it up to you or you know no mysteries contained within.
His sheep hear His voice. If you want to represent Him and get His point across, if it is His, you must do it by the Spirit. A stranger they will not follow.

I have written a commentary on Proverbs, so I think I know it well. Defending our Lord Jesus Christ is not foolish, especially when He is wrongly cited as being in Proverbs. That is our duty.

 

[jaybird88]

He said 'My Lord and my God'. That indicated he had suddenly seen Jesus as just that. Every decent Bible Scholar would agree that that was what Thomas was saying

No they show that Thomas knew that He was God Most High

if the context of the passage is to prove Jesus is the Most High by confirming what thomas said, , why is it not discussed anywhere else in the passage.
and the end of the passage tells us exactly what the passage is teaching
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But these are written that you may believe[SUP][b][/SUP] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[bluto]

Have you spent much time in Proverbs? It will do you good.
All these quarrels and many words are for fools.
Truth does not badger and beat.
You support your understanding, cool. Unfortunately understanding in our mind by our own intelligence does nothing. Holy Spirit must open it up to you or you know no mysteries contained within.
His sheep hear His voice. If you want to represent Him and get His point across, if it is His, you must do it by the Spirit. A stranger they will not follow.

Oh please holly, how old are you? Oh there it is, your 34 and all you know is the book of Proverbs? I must of struck a nerve for you to accuse me of being a "fool." I gave nothing but verses to demi in my post and your telling me I know nothing about Proverbs? Those are the "many" words I gave her and your complaining like a child that I'm "badgering" her.

Now, how about you back up what your saying when you said the following? "I support my understanding." Please tell me what you understanding is of the verses I provided? What did the Holy Spirit tell you what the verses mean that contradict my understanding? And one last thing? You "DO NOT" know the operation of one's mind which means you can't know my movtives by me just posting verses from the Bible and encouraging someone to take the verses seriously. Instead you butt in sitting on your high horse and call me a fool.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto