Can the Trinity be Biblically proven?

[valiant]

John 1:1 lacks the “definite article” (which would be the word *the*) in front of Theos, thus making Jesus (the Word) appear to be either “a God” or “Deity/Divine/Godlike” but not “the” God (like shown with Theon). The word was with “the Theon” (the God) and “Theos” was the word. No definite article in front of Theos, thus possibly showing a qualitative attribute, but not being “the God” though. Below is the word for word translation from the Greek.

In beginning was the word and the word was with the Theon and Theos was the word

If John wanted to show that the word was also “the” God, then he could have simply written it like this…

In beginning was the word and the word was with the Theon and the Theon was the word.

You show your ignorance of Greek. The verb 'to be' takes the same case after it as before it and if both parts have the article they mean full identity (they are interchangeable). But the Word was not the whole of God.

In fact God is used adjectivally. The word was theos means that what God was the Word was, He was of the being of God, but not the whole of God.

Only he doesn’t. John purposely chose to only address one person as being “THE God”.

He said that the Word was of the being of God.

He also made it a point to use Theos instead of Theon when referencing who the word was. I wonder why he would choose to do this if he intended for us to believe that the word was also “the” God?

Because the verb to be would mean that the Word was the whole of God. But whereas the word was of the nature of God, He was not the whole of God.

Let’s look at this one more time, but compare the most popular, doctrinal influenced translation, to the word for word Greek.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Vs. Greek word for word.

John 1:1 In beginning was the word and the word was with the Theon and Theos was the word

Which means that the Word was of the nature of ho theos.

A more accurate word for word translation would be as follows…

In beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and Divine was the Word.

Or to adjust for grammar (so we don’t sound like Yoda from Star Wars)…

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was Divine.

The word theos is used twice. This shows that it means similar in both cases. The lack of
article in the second mention makes it the predicate in the sense 'of the very nature of the God just mentioned'.

Here’s a link below to John 1:1 in its Greek.

John 1:1 Interlinear: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

The Word was of the nature of the Godhead.

Here’s a few verses that I’ll close this with.

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”…John 20:17

Notice He did NOT say our Father and our God. He kept Himself unique, He was describing His unique relationship to the Father as the Son, God was His God as a man.

but to the Son: Your throne, God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; this is why God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of joy rather than Your companions…Hebrews 1:8-9

Exactly, He is addressed as God but, as the ruler of the Kingdom, subject to God.

 

[notbythesword]

Because the verb to be would mean that the Word was the whole of God. But whereas the word was of the nature of God, He was not the whole of God.

Thanks for confirming my point, while at the same time, attempting to debunk it. I’m glad to see that we both agree that “He was not the whole of God”, from John 1:1. Funny how the Theon WAS shown to be "the" God though huh?

 

[valiant]

Thanks for confirming my point, while at the same time, attempting to debunk it. I’m glad to see that we both agree that “He was not the whole of God”, from John 1:1. Funny how the Theon WAS shown to be "the" God though huh?

This was because it referred back to the God of the OT. It brought out that the Word was of the same nature as the God of the OT. In other words He also was God.

 

[notbythesword]

Exactly, He is addressed as God but, as the ruler of the Kingdom, subject to God.

The God I know is subject to no one. The God I know, is the God of the Most High.

 

[notbythesword]

Notice He did NOT say our Father and our God. He kept Himself unique, He was describing His unique relationship to the Father as the Son, God was His God as a man.

Oh wow I didn’t notice that… If you don’t say “our” then you must have meant someone different when saying “My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God”. So, who was this different God and Father of Jesus vs us? Who was this different person that Jesus was talking about since He didn’t say “our” valiant?

 

[garee]

There is nothing in your above post that abrogates the Scriptural facts provided for your edification in my post 1447. FYI, the marriage of the Bride/Church to the Lamb/Jesus, will take place in heaven, while the tribulation is taking place on earth, as recorded in Rev.19:7-8. All believers are members of the one body of Christ - spiritually - through the baptism of us all by the One Spirit, as recorded in 1 Cor.12:12-13.


Quasar02

To consummate the marriage of the bride of Christ, who will come down with his bride on the last day which is also judgement day for the unbeliever as the end of this world system. All believers, those sleeping and those still on earth reigning with Christ who indwells them, everyone will receive the new body as His bride in the twinkling of the eye.

It will be like the parable when the walls of Jericho fell to simulate the last day, judgment for the unbeliever, salvation as lifted up to the others , the last trump to represent the voice of God.... the wakeup call of all the saints that had part in the first resurrection typified by the opening of grave witness by the angels in heaven the new Jerusalem .

It is the same resurrection today that began when He said it was finished we enter it today, to be absent of the body is to be present sleeping with all the saints that are not reigning with Christ when his bride comes down on the last day

The idea of some having their new bodies why others remain in their corrupted flesh I believe is not a spiritual principle. Just as would it be that another veil be used to represent Christ coming in the flesh He already performed that and declared to us we know him that way according to the flesh forever more.

There will not be two outward demonstrations of the work of the Spirit of Christ who does indwell every believer. Putting on flesh for another demonstration of His spirit being poured out as if it was blood.would show Christ crucified over and over to public shame as if one demonstration was not enough to provide the faith to believe God. Better things accompany the salvation of believer.

1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised “incorruptible”, and we shall be changed.

There is nothing in the scriptures that would give us the idea that some will receive their new bodies at different times. Or that God will set up his kingdom on earth for some odd reason. Flesh and blood will not enter and neither will there be some saints changed and others not. The last day is the second and final resurrection at that time all will receive their new incorruptible bodies in the twinkling of an eye . Not over a literal thousand years.

I think by looking at the words last trump, and last day we can come to a safe conclusion as he he will come like a thief in the night on that last day

ohn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 

[notbythesword]

He said that the Word was of the being of God.


Which means that the Word was of the nature of ho theos.

I also agree that the Word is “of” the being of God, but that God is a separate being. The Word is “of” the nature of God. However, “the” God is shown to be a separate person that the Word is “with”, not “was”. Jesus was clearly shown to be a divine being, who was “with” the (singular) God. Don’t most sons have similar natures as their fathers? Being of God, and having a similar nature as God, by no means makes you “the” God. This is exactly what John 1:1 proves.

 

[bluto]

Ok sword let's examine what you have said in your other post to me? :I’m not sure if you remember, but I personally believe that Jesus pre-existed with the Father before His being sent into this world in bodily form. To your last questions regarding Genesis 17:1-2 and Genesis 22, I view it as God speaking. However, I do believe that God can speak “through” people and divine beings. This is shown with prophets, angels, and Christ Himself.

And this is what your saying in this post: "Before Jesus entered into this world as a man, He was in the same/equal form as the Father. We are flesh and blood, but Jesus was of spiritual form." Remember I gave you Genesis 17:1,2, "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD APPEARED to Abram and said to him, I, AM GOD ALMIGHTY; Walk before Me and be blameless, vs2 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly."

It explicity states that the Lord God appeared to Abram and furhtermore this was a physical appearance of God to Abram. And since Jesus Christ Himself stated at John 5:47, John 6:46 states that God the Father cannot be seen then who appeared to Abram that is clearly identified as God? I know you said it was perhaps angels, prophets, and even Christ Himself. I also want to know in what form was Jesus Christ before His incarnation as a man? I say He was in the "form" of God based on Philippians 2:6 which explicityl states that "although" (which means in spite of the fact) He/Jesus always existed as God and then He takes the "form" of a man.

Now, I also mentioned Genesis 22 and ask you who spoke from heaven, Genesis 22:11 and at vs15 where the angel of the Lord called out from heaven two times. What does he say at Genesis 22:16, 17 sword? And why does not God Himself call out from heaven instead of having the angel of the Lord do it? God called out from heaven at Exodus 20:22. He also called out from heaven at Mark 1:11, "and a voice came out of the heavens, Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." Did God at Genesis 22 have laryngitis?

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

Bumped for sword and I would like to get back to what I said above by asking you a point blank question? At Genesis chapter 22:11-19 can you please tell me who swore the oath to Abraham by saying at vs17, "I will greatly multiply your seed as the starst of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies." Who swore the oath sword?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[notbythesword]

Bumped for sword and I would like to get back to what I said above by asking you a point blank question? At Genesis chapter 22:11-19 can you please tell me who swore the oath to Abraham by saying at vs17, "I will greatly multiply your seed as the starst of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies." Who swore the oath sword?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Verse 17 is the angel of the Lord speaking on behalf of God. The angel of the Lord, is simply “an” angel of the Lord who was given authority by God to speak on His behalf. It’s who God often spoke through before Jesus was exalted above the angels and now acts as sole mediator. Anyways this is why you read this decree by the angel of the Lord.

Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By Myself I have sworn,” this is the Lord’s declaration: “Because you have done this thing and have not withheld your only son, I will indeed bless you and make your offspring as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sand on the seashore. Your offspring will possess the gates of their enemies…Genesis 22:15-17

Since I was able to give you a direct identification in my first sentence…how about you give me one as to what the “Power” is that Jesus is sitting to the right of in Mark 14:62?

 

[notbythesword]

Notice the "this is the Lord's declaration:" part.

 

[bluto]

Verse 17 is the angel of the Lord speaking on behalf of God. The angel of the Lord, is simply “an” angel of the Lord who was given authority by God to speak on His behalf. It’s who God often spoke through before Jesus was exalted above the angels and now acts as sole mediator. Anyways this is why you read this decree by the angel of the Lord.

Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By Myself I have sworn,” this is the Lord’s declaration: “Because you have done this thing and have not withheld your only son, I will indeed bless you and make your offspring as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sand on the seashore. Your offspring will possess the gates of their enemies…Genesis 22:15-17

Since I was able to give you a direct identification in my first sentence…how about you give me one as to what the “Power” is that Jesus is sitting to the right of in Mark 14:62?

Ok sword, I already addressed the power issue but I will do it again and in more detail. If you look at Mark 14:62 Jesus is quoting Psalm 110:1 ,"The Lord says to my Lord Sit at My right hand, Untill I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." So sword, who is the first "Lord" in the verse and who is the second "Lord" in the verse?

This same verse at Psalm 110:1 is the same verse Jesus quoted to the Pharisees at Matthew 22:41-45. So I'm going to ask you the same question Jesus ask the Pharisees? Here is the context. Matthew 22:41, "Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, vs42, "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, "The son of David." vs43, "He/Jesus said to them, The how does David in the Spirit call Him "LOrd" saying, vs44, "The Lord said to My Lord Sit at My right hand, Until I put Thine enemies beneath Thy Feet?" VS45 sword and here is the question Jesus is asking them, "If David then calls Him "Lord", how is He his son?"

In other words sword, King David at Psalm 110:1 identifies the Lord God as his/David's Lord and Jesus is identified as David's Lord as well meaning that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty. That is the point Jesus was making and the Pharisees could not answer Him because they knew exactly what Jesus was saying. Now, you keep mentioning the "Power." Ok, look at Hebrews 1:3,

"And He/Jesus is the radiance of His/God the Fathers glory and the exact representation of His/God the Fathers nature, and upholds ALL THINGS BYH THE WORD OF HIS POWER. (This is Jesus Christ) When He/Jesus had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high." You have to learn to read the context of verses sword and you also have to know how to "cross reference" verses with other verses to get the full picture.

Now, onto Genesis 22 and I'm going to ask you if you know what a "shaliach" is? A shaliach is a person in Jewish culture that acts as an agent on behalf of a principle. What do I mean. You just said to me that the angel of the Lord was speaking on behalf of God, in other words the angel of the Lord is God "shaliach." But there are a number of things wrong with this idea.

Number one is the fact that the angel of the Lord is not an angel. The word for angel in the Hebrew is "malak" and it can mean a real angel like Michael or even Gabriel but it can also mean "messenger," it all depends on the context of how the word is used. At Malachi 3:1 it says, "Behold, I am goint to send my "malak/angel/messenger" and he will prepare the way before Me. The angel/messenger in this case is John the Baptist. So you see an angel can also refer to a human being. In fact, Malachi whom I am quoting, well his name means "angel/messenger" and Malachi is a human prophet of God just like John the Baptist.

So I have eliminated one of your arguments. The second argument to be eliminated is fact that the angel of the Lord is not only speaking for God but He taking action by multiplying Abrahams seed. And if you look at Genesis 16:10 the angel of the Lord multiplied Hagar's seed/descendants as well. And Hagar at Genesis 16:13 says, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God who sees, for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"

So I just eliminated your argument number 2. Here comes the "biggy" argument that will do you in. Angels, (if you believe the angel of the Lord is an angel) and men who are called messengers CANNOT SWEAR AN OATH ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE. The writer of Hebrews said this at Hebrews 6:13,14, "For WHEN GOD MADE THE PROMISE TO ABRAHAM, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF. vs14, saying "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU, AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU." In fact sword, even the Jewish Virutal Library says a person/shaliach/agent cannot swear an oath on behalf of the principle. In this case at Hebrews 6:13,14 as well as at Genesis 22 the angel of the Lord who swore the oath is God Almighty Himself, i.e the preincarnate Jesus Christ. Even the Luke says at Luke 1:73, "The oath which He swore to Abraham our father vs74, that we be delivered from the hand of our enemies."

What is Luke talking about? Look at Genesis 22:17 the very last part of the verse, "and your seed shall possess the gate of your enemies." Sorry sword, but there is no way around this even according to the Jews themselves.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[notbythesword]

Ok sword, I already addressed the power issue but I will do it again and in more detail. If you look at Mark 14:62 Jesus is quoting Psalm 110:1 ,"The Lord says to my Lord Sit at My right hand, Untill I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." So sword, who is the first "Lord" in the verse and who is the second "Lord" in the verse?

This same verse at Psalm 110:1 is the same verse Jesus quoted to the Pharisees at Matthew 22:41-45. So I'm going to ask you the same question Jesus ask the Pharisees? Here is the context. Matthew 22:41, "Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, vs42, "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, "The son of David." vs43, "He/Jesus said to them, The how does David in the Spirit call Him "LOrd" saying, vs44, "The Lord said to My Lord Sit at My right hand, Until I put Thine enemies beneath Thy Feet?" VS45 sword and here is the question Jesus is asking them, "If David then calls Him "Lord", how is He his son?"

In other words sword, King David at Psalm 110:1 identifies the Lord God as his/David's Lord and Jesus is identified as David's Lord as well meaning that Jesus Christ is the Lord God Almighty. That is the point Jesus was making and the Pharisees could not answer Him because they knew exactly what Jesus was saying. Now, you keep mentioning the "Power." Ok, look at Hebrews 1:3,

"And He/Jesus is the radiance of His/God the Fathers glory and the exact representation of His/God the Fathers nature, and upholds ALL THINGS BYH THE WORD OF HIS POWER. (This is Jesus Christ) When He/Jesus had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high." You have to learn to read the context of verses sword and you also have to know how to "cross reference" verses with other verses to get the full picture.

Now, onto Genesis 22 and I'm going to ask you if you know what a "shaliach" is? A shaliach is a person in Jewish culture that acts as an agent on behalf of a principle. What do I mean. You just said to me that the angel of the Lord was speaking on behalf of God, in other words the angel of the Lord is God "shaliach." But there are a number of things wrong with this idea.

Number one is the fact that the angel of the Lord is not an angel. The word for angel in the Hebrew is "malak" and it can mean a real angel like Michael or even Gabriel but it can also mean "messenger," it all depends on the context of how the word is used. At Malachi 3:1 it says, "Behold, I am goint to send my "malak/angel/messenger" and he will prepare the way before Me. The angel/messenger in this case is John the Baptist. So you see an angel can also refer to a human being. In fact, Malachi whom I am quoting, well his name means "angel/messenger" and Malachi is a human prophet of God just like John the Baptist.

So I have eliminated one of your arguments. The second argument to be eliminated is fact that the angel of the Lord is not only speaking for God but He taking action by multiplying Abrahams seed. And if you look at Genesis 16:10 the angel of the Lord multiplied Hagar's seed/descendants as well. And Hagar at Genesis 16:13 says, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art a God who sees, for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?"

So I just eliminated your argument number 2. Here comes the "biggy" argument that will do you in. Angels, (if you believe the angel of the Lord is an angel) and men who are called messengers CANNOT SWEAR AN OATH ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ELSE. The writer of Hebrews said this at Hebrews 6:13,14, "For WHEN GOD MADE THE PROMISE TO ABRAHAM, SINCE HE COULD SWEAR BY NO ONE GREATER, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF. vs14, saying "I WILL SURELY BLESS YOU, AND I WILL SURELY MULTIPLY YOU." In fact sword, even the Jewish Virutal Library says a person/shaliach/agent cannot swear an oath on behalf of the principle. In this case at Hebrews 6:13,14 as well as at Genesis 22 the angel of the Lord who swore the oath is God Almighty Himself, i.e the preincarnate Jesus Christ. Even the Luke says at Luke 1:73, "The oath which He swore to Abraham our father vs74, that we be delivered from the hand of our enemies."

What is Luke talking about? Look at Genesis 22:17 the very last part of the verse, "and your seed shall possess the gate of your enemies." Sorry sword, but there is no way around this even according to the Jews themselves.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I think that you need to take a look at Matthew 1:20 and see how it’s widely translated.

But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit…Matthew 1:20

Next look at Genesis 16:11-12 and notice how the angel of the Lord speaks about the Lord in the third person. This shows how God spoke “through” the angel.

The angel of the Lord also said to her: “You are now pregnant and you will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”…Genesis 16:11-12

Your idea that God cannot swear to something through the angel of the Lord is not backed by scripture. God said that He swore by Himself since there was nobody greater to swear by. Nothing about Him not being able to relay that message through His angel.

For when God made a promise to Abraham, since He had no one greater to swear by, He swore by Himself: I will indeed bless you, and I will greatly multiply you…Hebrews 6:13-14

So, God swears by Himself since He is the greatest…why would this mean He cannot relay this message through His angel? I think you assume too much. If the angel of the Lord came down and said “thus sayeth the Lord “I swear that…””it’s not possible to relay that message to you?

But all this aside, it’s actually funny that some people in the Trinitarian community would try to attribute the angel of the Lord to Jesus, because that would mean that they concede that Jesus is not God. If you want to get a look at the angel’s attributes, then just check out Zechariah 1:12.

Then the angel of the Lord said, “Lord Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with these seventy years?”... Zechariah 1:12

Jesus (who was God, and the angel of the Lord) asked this question this way huh? Call me crazy but I think that your theory may have some flaws in it bluto.

 

[bluto]

Ok by the numbers sword. "THE" angel of the Lord "NEVER" appears in the New Testament and you will notice that Matthew 1:20 says, "an" angel appeared etc. The only time the word "an" was used for The angel of the Lord is at Acts 7:30 when Stephen is reading the riot act to the Jews and he mentioned "The" angel of the Lord that appeared in the burning bush to Moses who said at Exodus 3:4, "When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush," Then at vs 6, "He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

You then brought up the idea that the angel of the Lord is speaking in the third person. God often speaks in the third person. He did at Job 2:3, "And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man FEARING GOD, and turning away from evil." He spoke in the third person at 1 Samuel 2:30 and another place which you missed sword was right there at Genesis 22:12, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God."

There is also the fact angels have their limitations. Scriptures indicate that they do not know the depth of the Essence of God, whihc is know only to the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11). They DO NOT KNOW THE FUTURE, which is also only know to God, Mark 13:32. So please explain to me sword how the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:10 was able to multiply Hagar's descendants and then at vs 11 tell Hagar she is pregnate and then at vs12 that her son will be a wild donkey of a man and every mans hand will be against him and he will go to the east of all his brothers? Then to top it off sword, how come Hagar says she saw God and lived to tell about it?

You also said this: "So, God swears by Himself since He is the greatest…why would this mean He cannot relay this message through His angel? I think you assume too much. If the angel of the Lord came down and said “thus sayeth the Lord “I swear that…””it’s not possible to relay that message to you?"

Why don't you look at it this way and accept what the scriptures are explicitly saying? It clearly says at Hebrews 6:13,14 that God swore the oath by Himself and He by Himself will mutiply Abraham's descendants. This is "NOT" relaying a message this is an outright statement of truth. If you saw a crime and were asked to appear in court as a witness you sure can't say "I think I'll send my brother to relay a message that I'm the one that saw the crime. In fact, even if you were let's say sick and in a hospital and you could not appear in court the court would send someone out to you to depose you. This is the law sword!

In every one of your post why do you feel it is necessary to go to great lengths in denying the Deity of Jesus Christ when the clear evidence I have been giving you is clear? Genesis 17:1,2 says the Lord appeared to Abraham. You say no He didn't. The Lord God swore an oath by Himself! You say it was an angel that did it for Him. Thomas said Jesus Christ was his "Lord and God"! You say that's not what he meant? I could go on and on with this but you would still try and come up excuses.

Finally you close by saying my "theory" may have some flaws in it? Really! All I gave you was the scriptures as written and yes, you have to be "crazy" to deny what they clealry say.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Quasar92]

NO ONE believes that God is three in one person. He is ONE Being revealed in Threeness.



The Holy Spirit is NOT the father of Jesus. Nor is He God the Father. He is the One who came upon Mary in power to enable her to produce the son of God. There is no suggestion of sexual union, nor was Jesus essential being communicated to Mary.



LOL YOU say so. The Scriptures do NOT. There is no evidence at all for changing it. It is Scripture.

You are a classic case of "I know it all, don't bother me with the facts!" You blow your horn that I have not provided the facts I post from the full support of the Bible, when you deny them in favor of a man made doctrine that the Bible, Jesus, nor His disciples ever taught. What you live and die with in the doctrine of the Trinity is total fiction provided to you by the RCC who bought into the heresy, from two or three of the church fathers in the forth century! Wake up and start doing some study of your own and leave their rationalizing to save it alone! Read the following Biblical facts that clearly describe God from the very Scritures!

The Biblical Description of God - in Theology/Prophecy & Revelation Forum Forum

And there is much more where this comes from!


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Identifying the Biblical term Father as a title

A revelation of how easy it is for the Scriptures to identify God as being the Holy Spirit and Father of Jesus Christ as recorded in the Bible, documented below.

1. 2 Sam.7:14: "I will be his Father and he will be my son"
2. 1 Chr.17:13: "I will be his Father and he will be my son..."
3. Ps.2:7: "He said to me, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father."
4. Acts 13:33: "You are my Son; today I have become your Father."

The "I" in each of the four verses above is God referring to Himself. Who is the "I" ? [Later below].

The Scriptures below tell us God is an invisible Spirit:

God is Spirit: Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; 2 Cor.3:17-18; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; 1 Tim.6:16 Heb.11.27 and 1 Jn.4:12.
In addition to the Scriptures below declaring the above Spirit of God Holy:

God is Holy: Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Isa.43:3; Jos.24:19; 1 Sam.2:2; Job 6:10; Ps.99:3 and 1 Pet.1:15-16.
According to the above, there is no option to the Scriptural fact God is the Holy Spirit.

With the Scriptures documenting the identity of God as being the Holy Spirit, there is no possibility of anyone except the Holy Spirit of being the Father of Jesus Christ as well, according to Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and Heb.10:5.

Revealing the "I's," in the above Scriptures, who spoke of Himself as the Father of a Son to come, to be the Holy Spirit.

The origin of the pre-incarnate spirit of the person who later became Jesus Christ:

He was "brought forth," NIV - or - "born," NASB, by God [Who is the Holy Spirit according to the Scriptures], in Pr.8:22-36, before the world began. Who was "given birth" in verses 24-25, the "Craftsman at His side," NIV - or - "I was beside Him as a Master workman," NASB, in vs 30 and the "us" in Gen.1:26, 11:7 and Heb.1:2. The firstborn over all creation, recorded in Col.1:15.

From the Pr.8:22 KJV: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." A review of Gen.14:19 and 2 2 reveals the term POSSESSOR to be translated CREATOR, in the NIV and [annotated] CREATOR in the NASB as well as Scofield's version of the KJV. Meaning that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit becomes the Father:

When the Holy Spirit overpowered the virgin Mary [In Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35], she conceived what became the incarnate Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God Several things happened then: 1. God, who is the Holy Spirit became the Father of Jesus, making the Holy Spirit and the Father one 'personage' [Spirit], Lk.1:35. Fulfilling the prophecy of God in 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13; Ps.2:7 and Acts 13:33. Repeated after being fulfilled in Heb.1:5. 2. The incarnate Jesus immediately received the Holy Spirit and His deity together with the power to give the Holy Spirit to whomever He chose. 3. Jesus said we must be born again through belief in Him, and He will give/baptize those who do, with eternal life, documented in: Jn.3:16, Mt.3:11, Mk.1:8, Lk.3:16, Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. See also Jn.20:21-22; 1 Jn.3:24 and 1 Jn.4:13.

The term "father," is the title all men receive when they have produced children of their own. Why then, should it be any different when God, who is the Holy Spirit, according to the Scriptures, be any different when He too, has become the Father of Jesus Christ?

Note: There was no Son of God during OT times, as clearly seen in Isa.43:10. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus did not become the human Son of God and literally God the Son, or obtain the name Jesus until being recorded in Mt.1:20; Lk.1:31, 35 and Jn.1:14. And in Ps.45:6-7; 110:1 and Isa.7:14, repeated in Mt.1:23; 22:44 and Heb.1:8-9 when it had been fulfilled.


Quasar92

 

[notbythesword]

Ok by the numbers sword. "THE" angel of the Lord "NEVER" appears in the New Testament and you will notice that Matthew 1:20 says, "an" angel appeared etc. The only time the word "an" was used for The angel of the Lord is at Acts 7:30 when Stephen is reading the riot act to the Jews and he mentioned "The" angel of the Lord that appeared in the burning bush to Moses who said at Exodus 3:4, "When the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush," Then at vs 6, "He said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

You then brought up the idea that the angel of the Lord is speaking in the third person. God often speaks in the third person. He did at Job 2:3, "And the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man FEARING GOD, and turning away from evil." He spoke in the third person at 1 Samuel 2:30 and another place which you missed sword was right there at Genesis 22:12, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him, for now I know that you fear God."

There is also the fact angels have their limitations. Scriptures indicate that they do not know the depth of the Essence of God, whihc is know only to the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11). They DO NOT KNOW THE FUTURE, which is also only know to God, Mark 13:32. So please explain to me sword how the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:10 was able to multiply Hagar's descendants and then at vs 11 tell Hagar she is pregnate and then at vs12 that her son will be a wild donkey of a man and every mans hand will be against him and he will go to the east of all his brothers? Then to top it off sword, how come Hagar says she saw God and lived to tell about it?

You also said this: "So, God swears by Himself since He is the greatest…why would this mean He cannot relay this message through His angel? I think you assume too much. If the angel of the Lord came down and said “thus sayeth the Lord “I swear that…””it’s not possible to relay that message to you?"

Why don't you look at it this way and accept what the scriptures are explicitly saying? It clearly says at Hebrews 6:13,14 that God swore the oath by Himself and He by Himself will mutiply Abraham's descendants. This is "NOT" relaying a message this is an outright statement of truth. If you saw a crime and were asked to appear in court as a witness you sure can't say "I think I'll send my brother to relay a message that I'm the one that saw the crime. In fact, even if you were let's say sick and in a hospital and you could not appear in court the court would send someone out to you to depose you. This is the law sword!

In every one of your post why do you feel it is necessary to go to great lengths in denying the Deity of Jesus Christ when the clear evidence I have been giving you is clear? Genesis 17:1,2 says the Lord appeared to Abraham. You say no He didn't. The Lord God swore an oath by Himself! You say it was an angel that did it for Him. Thomas said Jesus Christ was his "Lord and God"! You say that's not what he meant? I could go on and on with this but you would still try and come up excuses.

Finally you close by saying my "theory" may have some flaws in it? Really! All I gave you was the scriptures as written and yes, you have to be "crazy" to deny what they clealry say.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Well bluto, if you get exalted over everything (including the angels) by God, and now there is just one mediator between God and man…Jesus, then of course there wouldn’t be much of a need for the/an angel of the Lord anymore, would there? God in times past used to speak to us in various ways, but now He speaks to us through His Son. However, let me show you where you are incorrect.

You said: “The only time the word "an" was used for The angel of the Lord is at Acts 7:30”

After they were gone, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Get up! Take the child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I tell you. For Herod is about to search for the child to destroy Him.”…Matthew 2:13

As you can see, there’s a lot more “an” angel of the Lord verses besides Acts 7:30.

Just so you know, not all Trinitarians believe that Jesus was the angel of the Lord, for the simple fact that their pre-incarnate Jesus is not someone who is commanded by the Lord, or asks questions saying Lord Almighty. Their Jesus was co-equal prior to incarnation. But there are still a lot who do hold to your view.

To you last point about Hebrews 6:13-14. If you want to hold to the notion that God can’t make a promise or swear by Himself without doing it in person, then that’s your opinion, not mine. I believe that God can swear on Himself or make a promise and relay that through the angel of the Lord, Jesus, or whomever He may choose.

You say that I go through such extreme lengths to back my view of scripture…of course, it’s what I truly believe. You do the exact same thing because it’s what you believe. It’s why you have multiple forums open on this topic, isn’t it? This issue has probably been one of the most charged Christian topics ever to arise since the official appearance of the Trinity Doctrine within Christianity.

Just want you to know though, there has been no other issue that I have studied more on than this topic. It’s because like many, I used to just take the doctrine for granted. Only thing is, I kept running into verses that I could no longer just set aside or ignore. Verses that depicted Christ’s nature as differing from this mainstream doctrine. I don’t choose to ignore them anymore.

I basically had to reread the entire NT. This time it was with an open mind, not letting doctrine influence my objectivity. I still learn new things every day though. By the way, I don’t think less of people just because they may hold a differing view. Just want you to know that. Many people have simply never even contemplated all the things that we have already covered. Many also just have a difference of opinion…like you

Make no mistake about it though, Jesus is my king, my rock, my Lord, my Savior, the Christ, the Messiah, the Divine Son of God, the way, the truth, and the life. I know that no man enters unto the Father except through Him. I put my faith and trust in my Lord Jesus, and in my God and Father who raised Him from the dead, after He died for my sins on the cross. I’ve repented of my sins and seek to continue to grow through Jesus Christ.

 

[Quasar92]

Why the doctrine of the Trinity is false:

1. What is God? He is Spirit, according to Jesus, in Jn.4:24 and Paul, in 2 Cor.3:17-18. That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; Heb.11:27 [Both Moses and Abraham saw the pre-incarnate Jesus, not God, the invisible Holy Spirit] and in 1 Jn.4:12.
2. God, who is Spirit according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, according to Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5 and 1 Pet.1:15-16. Therefore, according to the Scriptures, there is no option to the fact, God is the Holy Spirit!

3. There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10 and 44:6. Which rules out Jesus being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit. The Scriptural description of his origin is addressed below. It can be described as Jesus auto-biography, written by king Solomon as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

4. The origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, who did not become the only begotten Son of God, until much later, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35, is found in Pr.8:22-36, which follows below: Confirming Ps.2:7; Ps.45:6-7; Ps.110:1 and Isa.7:14. Repeated when fulfilled in: Mt.1:23; Mt.22:44; Heb.1:5, 8-9.

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24] NIV
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world." [Vs 24-26] NIV
I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28] NIV

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30] NIV
rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33] NIV
Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36] NIV

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3

From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, and the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ. In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus being created, comes from their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both verses means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15.

To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, is written that He was/is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, as a firstborn child in a family of multiple children, or if only one, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of YHWH's works, before anything else was created, before the world began.

Confirmed in Col.1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN over all creation." As well as in Gen.1:26, 11:7; Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5.

5. In vs 30 of the Pr.8 text is the following: NIV
"when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day," [Vs 29-30]
Confirming: Gen.1:26; Gen.14:7; Jn.1:1-3; Col.1:16-18 and in Heb.1:2.

6. The Holy Spirit, who is our One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

7. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:35, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:31. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with leprosy and other terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

8. The title, "Father," given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men receive who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making God, who is the Holy Spirit, two persons through the use of His title as Father, trinitarians attempt to do! Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 is bogus, because it was obviously altered by unscrupulous scribes obsessed with belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. In addition 1 Jn.5:7 was a late Latin insert on, around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared in any of the earlier, Greek manuscripts..

See the following for the origins of the trinity:

The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine



Quasar92

 

[popeye]

I also agree that the Word is “of” the being of God, but that God is a separate being. The Word is “of” the nature of God. However, “the” God is shown to be a separate person that the Word is “with”, not “was”. Jesus was clearly shown to be a divine being, who was “with” the (singular) God. Don’t most sons have similar natures as their fathers? Being of God, and having a similar nature as God, by no means makes you “the” God. This is exactly what John 1:1 proves.

No,it points to Jesus and the Father as co equals.
They are both God.

The Father chose to exalt the Son above himself.

That is why in Colossians He is called the fullness of the Godhead,and why he received worship from Thomas,and why the FATHER CALLS THE SON GOD IN HEBREWS

"....exalted high.."

 

[popeye]

Why the doctrine of the Trinity is false:

1. What is God? He is Spirit, according to Jesus, in Jn.4:24 and Paul, in 2 Cor.3:17-18. That no one has ever seen Him and that He is invisible, are found in Jn.1:18; Rom.1:20; Col.1:15; 1 Tim.1:17; Heb.11:27 [Both Moses and Abraham saw the pre-incarnate Jesus, not God, the invisible Holy Spirit] and in 1 Jn.4:12.
2. God, who is Spirit according to the Scriptures, is also Holy, according to Lev.11:44-45; Lev.19:2; Ps.99:3; Ps.99:5 and 1 Pet.1:15-16. Therefore, according to the Scriptures, there is no option to the fact, God is the Holy Spirit!

3. There was only one God throughout the entire OT according to Isa.43:10 and 44:6. Which rules out Jesus being co-eternal with God, the Holy Spirit. The Scriptural description of his origin is addressed below. It can be described as Jesus auto-biography, written by king Solomon as inspired by the Holy Spirit.

4. The origin of the pre-incarnate Jesus, who did not become the only begotten Son of God, until much later, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:32, 35, is found in Pr.8:22-36, which follows below: Confirming Ps.2:7; Ps.45:6-7; Ps.110:1 and Isa.7:14. Repeated when fulfilled in: Mt.1:23; Mt.22:44; Heb.1:5, 8-9.

"The Lord brought me forth as the first of His works, before His deeds of old; I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began. When there were no oceans, I was given birth, [Vs 22-24] NIV
when there were no springs abounding with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before He made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world." [Vs 24-26] NIV
I was there when He set the heavens in place, when He marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, when He established the clouds above and fixed securly the fountains of the deep, [Vs 27-28] NIV

when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day, [Vs 29-30] NIV
rejoicing always in His presence, rejoicing in His whole world and delighting in mankind. Now then my sons, listen to me; blessed are those who keep my ways. Listen to my instruction and be wise; do not ignore it. [Vs 30-33] NIV
Blessed is the man who listens to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the Lord. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death." [Vs 34-36] NIV

That Jesus is the Wisdom [Power and knowledge] of God is made abundantly clear in 1 Cor.1:24 and Col.2:2-3

From the above, the Word of God clearly reveals the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus Christ was created and is therefore not 'co-eternal' with the Spirit of God, as God stated clearly in Isa.43:10 and 44:6. The same passage of Scripture also clearly reveals there are two 'personages' involved, not just one. God, whom the Scriptures reveal is the Holy Spirit, and the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ. In the KJV, is another example of the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus being created, comes from their translation of Pr.8:22, which reads as follows: "The Lord POSSESSED me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old." In a review of Gen.14:19 and 22, the term POSSESS in both verses means CREATOR, i.e., that God CREATED the heavens and the earth, as well as the pre-incarnated Spirit of Jesus Christ, confirming Col.1:15.

To further reinforce the Pr.8:22-36 passage, it can also be seen in Col.1:15, that Jesus is/was the FIRSTBORN over all creation. And in vs 18, is written that He was/is the FIRSTBORN from the dead. Let it be crystal clear, the term, 'FIRSTBORN' means exactly the same in both verses! It means FIRSTBORN, as a firstborn child in a family of multiple children, or if only one, as in Pr.8:22, He was brought forth as the first of YHWH's works, before anything else was created, before the world began.

Confirmed in Col.1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN over all creation." As well as in Gen.1:26, 11:7; Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5.

5. In vs 30 of the Pr.8 text is the following: NIV
"when He gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep His command, and when He marked out the foundations of the earth. Then I was the craftsman at His side. I was filled with delight day after day," [Vs 29-30]
Confirming: Gen.1:26; Gen.14:7; Jn.1:1-3; Col.1:16-18 and in Heb.1:2.

6. The Holy Spirit, who is our One and Only God [Isa.43:10 and 44:6], not only stated He was the Father of Israel , in Dt.32:6, but also prophecied He was going to be the Father of a Son, in: 2 Sam.7:14; 1 Chr.17:13 and in Ps.2:7. Which was fulfilled in Mt.1:20, Lk.1:35 and 2:7. Therefore, there is no option to the Scriptural fact: God, the Holy Spirit was/is the Father of Jesus Christ. And gave a body to the pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus, by the virgin Mary, Confirming Jn.1:14 and Heb.10:5.

7. The pre-incarnate spirit of Jesus then became the incarnate Son of God in Lk.1:35, and received His name, Jesus, in Lk.1:31. Literally, God the Son, fulfilling the prophecy of the Holy Spirit, in Ps.45:6-7, 110:1 and Isa.7:14. Empowered to give/baptize with the Holy Spirit, according to Mt.3:11; Mk.1:8; Lk.3:16; Jn.1:33 and Acts 2:1-3. To perform 36 miracles, of raising some from the dead, healing people with leprosy and other terminal illnesses as well as the blind and the deaf. Which no normal human being could ever do.

8. The title, "Father," given to God, the Holy Spirit, is nothing more than the very same title all men receive who produce children of their own! It does not constitute making God, who is the Holy Spirit, two persons through the use of His title as Father, trinitarians attempt to do! Which is the reason why Mt.28:19 is bogus, because it was obviously altered by unscrupulous scribes obsessed with belief in the doctrine of the Trinity. In addition 1 Jn.5:7 was a late Latin insert on, around the 11th or 12th centuries that never appeared in any of the earlier, Greek manuscripts..

See the following for the origins of the trinity:

The Origin of the Trinity: From Paganism to Constantine



Quasar92

Under this method of private interpretation,the first church bus was a Honda.

"they were all in one accord"

Scriptural exegesis destroys your grand canyon leaps Quasar. And since you so heavily PERVERT the bible,you really need to be ejected from this board.

You are HEAVILY PERVERTING THE ESSENTIALS.

YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE CORRECTION.

 

[Quasar92]

No,it points to Jesus and the Father as co equals.
They are both God.

The Father chose to exalt the Son above himself.

That is why in Colossians He is called the fullness of the Godhead,and why he received worship from Thomas,and why the FATHER CALLS THE SON GOD IN HEBREWS

"....exalted high.."

Posts 1474, 5 and 7 refute you, together with the following passages:

John 14:28: New International Version (NIV) [SUP]
28 [/SUP]“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. '"

John 17:3 New International Version (NIV)
[SUP]3 "[/SUP]Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."


The Son of God, Jesus, did not exist until God, the Holy Spirit produced Him by the virgin Mary in Mt.1:20 and Lk.1:35. The above posts provide the Scriptural facts as to His pre-incarnate origin.



Quasar92