The King James Only Debate

[KJV1611]

don't get me wrong, I see patterns in the kjv, too!

but... it's just that I see them lots of other places, too.

The truth of the matter is that the word of the Lord is not in the "Letter", the letter killeth and that's why we argue here. The word of the Lord is hidden underneath the text and in the shadows and patterns. Can you image a measly translator being able to translate things the right way so as to use the right words to hide the real word of God underneath the text... most translators don't even know the hidden message even exists.

 

[stonesoffire]

That's why we use concordances Dan. Each English word has a meaning in Hebrew and even numbers.

Consider 4. North, south, east, west. The four corners of the earth. Or the sheep, 4 legged creatures. So much to Hebrew and greek.

As far as ascribing meaning or thought to what is exactly being said? Topical studies come into play.

 

[KJV1611]

Amen!

Are you willing to look at what God has shown other people?
Then we can both be edified.

I'm more than willing to listen to others, contrary to popular belief here, I am very open minded and I think that has played a large role in where I'm at today spiritually. But at the same time I'm going to accept things about the KJV that I know are absolutely not true.

 

[stonesoffire]

Gosh KJV 1611

Where were you when I was being attacked so aggressively on other forums?

lol

 

[The_Bible]

How would you explain, or rather, defend the verses of modern bibles to a stereotypical ethnicity, that is critiquing the sensitive topic of slavery justifiable by scriptures? All the MAJOR changes of the KJV has been Catholic influenced from these codex "mysteriously" resurfacing from monasteries or temples being kept by monks. The same Roman Catholics who were inspired to do missionary works like the Jesuits, Crusaders, Knights Templars, Freemasons all under the Papacy.


Which influenced in owning slaves of the Africans & Indigenous people justifying them with "Christianity". That reputation has stained ALL of Christianity with minorities, now they look at Christians as racist white folks or brainwashed indoctrinated minorities all following the "white man's religion" of the blonde hair, blue eyes paintings of Jesus Christ.


Which religion do they mostly turn to now? The religion of Islam bc they feel more "accepted". With reputations as the KKK & Hitler ( who was a baptized skeptic catholic NOT christian) the subject of slavery in MOSTLY all moden bibles is a harsh topic. When in the preserved KJV version the word "slave" isn't even mention that ik of.


Ephesians 6:5 - Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.


1 Peter 2:18 - Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Titus (2:9-10) - Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

Leviticus (25:44-46) - Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

 

[KJV1611]

'It is impossible for man to encode those numbers...'

basically true.
but, number patterns can occur randomly, and then our minds will attach meaning to them.

Ok then does this fit randomness. The number 9 whether it has a 0 behind it or not represents fruit bearing. The Holy Spirit (not us) causes us to bear fruit. Pneuma is the Greek word for spirit. KJV translators know this wery well. They chose to translate the same Greek word pneuma as Holy Ghost 90 times... 9 means fruit bearing. They chose Spirit 7 other times... 7 means fulness or completeness.

Did this number pattern in the KJV occur randomly or did someone make it happen?

 

[KJV1611]

Gosh KJV 1611

Where were you when I was being attacked so aggressively on other forums?

lol

Same here lol.

 

[masmpg]

The truth of the matter is that the word of the Lord is not in the "Letter", the letter killeth and that's why we argue here. The word of the Lord is hidden underneath the text and in the shadows and patterns. Can you image a measly translator being able to translate things the right way so as to use the right words to hide the real word of God underneath the text... most translators don't even know the hidden message even exists.

The way I see it is satan was looking over the shoulders of the prophets so they had to encrypt their messages so, not only would we have to study a lot to find the meaning, but satan is not privy to all the prophetic writings.

 

[KJV1611]

Dan, same here. 13 represents love both good and bad. Why would the KJV translators use exactly 13 words to talk about the mother of harlot love, the NASB uses 14 words. Is this random chance?

Revelation 17:5 KJV
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH .

 

[KJV1611]

The way I see it is satan was looking over the shoulders of the prophets so they had to encrypt their messages so, not only would we have to study a lot to find the meaning, but satan is not privy to all the prophetic writings.

It''s also done that way to hide the wisdom of God from the wisdom of the world.... also using this method, the word of God can't be "figured out", it has to be revealed by God... he has to let you see it.

Edit to add: And you can't see it if you don't believe every single word is right. I know that from experience.

 

[KJV1611]

46 is the number for trials and tribulation for man, it is also the number of human DNA. A place in the bible says "ye are of your father the devil". Is it random chance that the KJV translators used exactly 46 words when they translated the words that the serpent spoke to Eve in the garden?

Genesis 3:1-5 KJV
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [2] And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [3] But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[Agricola]

I agree the numbers are important and I believe they are God's signature on the scripture. It is impossible for man to encode those numbers into the bible, over and over again and still maintain the message of the scripture.

Think about this, the KJV translators weren't idiots. When they translated pneuma 90 times as Holy Ghost, they knew what they were doing, it wasn't that they were incompetent. Same with pascha, they KNEW what pascha meant but in the one and only place in the bible where passover was being referenced AFTER passover had been fulfilled they translated it as Easter. Again they knew the meaning of pascha, why did they translate it as Easter? I thinks it's because the entire world today calls the fulfillment of passover Easter. There would no other motivation that I can think of to translate pascha differently in that one verse.

Problem is you will take the KIng James as "scripture" but nothing else but I agree with what you say that Gods fingerprint is on the Bible, but as I read the NIV etc and see it says the same thing, it is same word of God.

If you think that the King James has unique numerology contained within it, then please share that and give me an example please.

 

[Dino246]

What I have found, and have been studying this subject for 20 years, is that those who are trying to promote the errant counterfeit translations are lying. ...

Let's fling some slander... that will add so much to this conversation! (umm, no.)

This is a category error. "Lying" is knowingly presenting something known to be false as truth. Presenting as truth something that is not true, but which is not known to be untrue, is not lying, but error or ignorance. A preschool child might state, "2 + 2 = 5" and not be "lying". One who has not done enough research, or who has done their research too narrowly, may make a similar mistake.

 

[Dan_473]

What I have found, and have been studying this subject for 20 years, is that those who are trying to promote the errant counterfeit translations are lying. God is black and white. BUT we can find a translation to say exactly what we with our finite human wisdom want to hear and teach to the demise of many souls. This is the bottom line about the translation argument. It is extremely important that we are correct on many issues, but if we are picking and choosing versions that we feel are correct. Since the NIV has been deceiving many church attendance has fallen off. When it comes to translation interpretation of diverse verses which translation is correct? I choose the one which God has protected through many storm, and the Holy Spirit has worked through to convert multitudes. I will say that we will not be arguing ourselves into heaven, neither will the errant doctrines promoted, especially by the NEW updated NIV of 2011. Jesus is coming for a united church. An invisible church from all denominations, but they will be doing exactly what the disciples were doing on Pentecost and what Paul said the church would be doing in 1Corinthians:1:10: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." From my studies and from experience of attending church this will never happen with so many diverse translations. Christians need to realize that for every truth in the bible satan has a counterfeit, and these counterfeit translations are a masterpiece of deception.

I agree with most of what you're saying.

now, if we all use the kjv, I think there will still be times when people will understand the text differently... partly because the kjv contains dark sayings

PROVERBS 1:6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

 

[KJV1611]

Let's fling some slander... that will add so much to this conversation! (umm, no.)

This is a category error. "Lying" is knowingly presenting something known to be false as truth. Presenting as truth something that is not true, but which is not known to be untrue, is not lying, but error or ignorance. A preschool child might state, "2 + 2 = 5" and not be "lying". One who has not done enough research, or who has done their research too narrowly, may make a similar mistake.

Amen! Plus some more to get 10 characters.

 

[Dan_473]

That's why we use concordances Dan. Each English word has a meaning in Hebrew and even numbers.

Consider 4. North, south, east, west. The four corners of the earth. Or the sheep, 4 legged creatures. So much to Hebrew and greek.

As far as ascribing meaning or thought to what is exactly being said? Topical studies come into play.

Right, I'm just saying it works with other Bibles, too.

 

[Dan_473]

I'm more than willing to listen to others, contrary to popular belief here, I am very open minded and I think that has played a large role in where I'm at today spiritually. But at the same time I'm going to accept things about the KJV that I know are absolutely not true.

You will be interested in number patterns in the niv, then?

 

[KJV1611]

Problem is you will take the KIng James as "scripture" but nothing else but I agree with what you say that Gods fingerprint is on the Bible, but as I read the NIV etc and see it says the same thing, it is same word of God.

If you think that the King James has unique numerology contained within it, then please share that and give me an example please.

I believe the KJV is inerrant and I am KJV only FOR ME. Unfortunately I get lumped into the KJV only cult because of my belief. I agree there is a KJV only cult and I am not a part of that group. No group or pastor made me KJV only, I became KJV only on my own by studying it.

If you can get things out of the NIV then that's great, I read the NIV for 15 years but I couldn't get any of this from the NIV. I would like to give you an example of why I'm KJV only. Please look it over and see the point I'm trying to make.

The KJV is clearly talking about David's DNA and the body of Christ in Psalm 139. I will talk about David's DNA but not the body of Christ (the church).

In the KJV God saw David's substance (body parts), yet being unperfect (not formed); and in God's book (David's book of DNA) all David's members (hands, feet, eyes, hair) were written. Which in continuance were fashioned ( the book has been written since the foundation of the world) when as yet there was no David.

Psalm 139:16King James Version (KJV)

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

tThe NIV may say the same thing but I can't get that out of NASB. To me it looks like the book in the NASB is the number days ordained for David.


Psalm 139:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

 

[KJV1611]

You will be interested in number patterns in the niv, then?

Certainly I would and I would promote it if it exists. But I'm talking about real patterns that match the biblical meaning of numbers.

 

[Dan_473]

Ok then does this fit randomness. The number 9 whether it has a 0 behind it or not represents fruit bearing. The Holy Spirit (not us) causes us to bear fruit. Pneuma is the Greek word for spirit. KJV translators know this wery well. They chose to translate the same Greek word pneuma as Holy Ghost 90 times... 9 means fruit bearing. They chose Spirit 7 other times... 7 means fulness or completeness.

Did this number pattern in the KJV occur randomly or did someone make it happen?

there are tons of number patterns in the kjv... or any book... possibly your mind latched onto this particular one and rejected other meanings that could be attached.



for example
1 SAMUEL 4:15 Now Eli was ninety and eight years old; and his eyes were dim, that he could not see.

ninety means Eli was full of the fruit of the spirit, and eight is the number of completion, so Eli was completely full of the spirit.