The King James Only Debate
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KJV 1611
I received a prophetic word from the Lord when I first started study. This was through a prophet...The Lord said that this kind of study of His Word is the dessert of scripture. There is just plain toast too.
Also, He spoke directly to me at home. What He said was, "if you seek to see me in all you do, you will do well."
This is the purpose of symbolism, and numbers. I think you know this too. There is great value in the KJV...but not all can see unless they have been called to this.
I've never really understood why there is such an disturbance caused by seeing Jesus everywhere in scripture. It brings me much joy and actually deliverance from the thoughts of my natural thinking.
I hope this helps you because I understand what you are saying.
I received a prophetic word from the Lord when I first started study. This was through a prophet...The Lord said that this kind of study of His Word is the dessert of scripture. There is just plain toast too.
Also, He spoke directly to me at home. What He said was, "if you seek to see me in all you do, you will do well."
This is the purpose of symbolism, and numbers. I think you know this too. There is great value in the KJV...but not all can see unless they have been called to this.
I've never really understood why there is such an disturbance caused by seeing Jesus everywhere in scripture. It brings me much joy and actually deliverance from the thoughts of my natural thinking.
I hope this helps you because I understand what you are saying.
I did. And those two I have found during one minute playing with search engine.
But I do not want to spend more time on this nonsense, so I am going to read the Bible instead
But I do not want to spend more time on this nonsense, so I am going to read the Bible instead
Revelation 17:5 KJV
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH .
M
The lie that the errant manuscripts are older than the textus receptus is just that, a lie. The dead sea scrolls validate the veracity of the textus receptus (received text) (majority text) the KJV. The minority texts were very corrupted. The two manuscripts used by westcott and hort, who BTW were not even Christians, but chosen to translate the revised version in 1881, were full of changes and deletions all over the pages. The masoritic texts (received text) were the manuscripts which the masoritic jews transcribed throughout time and when they made a mistake they threw away the whole page. Not so with the codex sinaiticus and the codex vaticanus. These texts were full of errors. Westcott and hort added more errors. These are the two (minority) manuscripts used for all the "modern" translations. To think that God would use all these very diverse translations is quite a stretch at best. The Holy Spirit is the Comforter that guides us into all truth. I use to rely on my finite human reasoning as I searched which bible "version" sounded best to my foolish human wisdom, until the Comforter revealed to me that my understanding matters very little when it comes to understanding an infinite God, and creator. Only the Holy Spirit can guide us, and when the translation we are using is not complete how can He guide us into all truth. He can do it all but He tells us to study to show ourselves approved unto God.
You are missing the point. Numbers are important and show things and there is symbolism in numbers. It is a serious study, but its been that way since the first writing, that has not been changed, its not something that suddenly proves the King James is gods only perfect bible in English. There is a danger on just making numbers fit as well, its easy to play numbers games and come up with all sorts.
Apologies for the long post... there are so many recent posts that warrant a response, and I don't want to fill the page with quoted posts so I'll address specific points by writer, page and post number...
P. 33, #592, Fredoheaven, “I do believe, the KJV is given to us by inspiration. If not, then God lie. He can’t keep His promise.”
That is narrow-minded. Remember that our understanding is limited, and that God may keep His promise perfectly in a way we don't presently see (as He did with the Incarnation). This is a common perspective among the KJV-only group... 'it must be this way'. Read up on false dichotomy fallacies... there is wisdom in allowing God to be bigger than our viewpoint. Our understanding of the promise itself may be flawed, leading us to expect or argue for some specific (but incorrect) fulfillment.
P. 30, #593, Fredoheaven, "Wescott and Hort and others founded the” ghostly guild” to do just the opposite and to dethrone the words of God."
Please check for confirmation outside of KJV-only sources. Your statement does not square with the materials I've read on the subject.
P. 33, #643, Trofimus, “Again, the question is not 'which translations is better for my theological view', but 'what was originally in the text.'"
This is SO true. It doesn't matter what we think a verse should say, especially in regard to a particular doctrine; it matters what the author actually wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Every true doctrine was true before God inspired the writer and, in human understanding, flows out of what God inspired, not the other way around.
P. 35, #683, John146, (a long post of noted differences between KJV and newer versions). This kind of reasoning is valid only if you assume that the KJV is inspired or perfect. As I have explained several times, merely noting differences does nothing to prove inspiration or which is the better translation.
... #686, GaryA, “The Holy Spirit cannot use a "corrupted" verse or passage of scripture to convict or teach.”
Where is that in Scripture? Frankly, your god is too small. I will grant that we cannot rely on any writing outside of Scripture, but I firmly believe that God can and does use many things and influences to convict and teach us, including, at times, even non-biblical literature. Paul's quotation of poetry is a prime example.
Several pro-KJV writers have asserted that there is satanic influence in newer bibles. A simple question: why do you believe there was no satanic influence in older bibles, including the KJV specifically? Logic would suggest, and Scripture declares, that the enemy was at work long before 1612. Please don't respond with any kind of “the KJV was inspired” argumentation (see below).
Some have asserted that the Enlightenment led to exaltation of man's wisdom and with it, textual criticism, (which is, in their assertion, thereby corrupt). Please explain why you think Erasmus, Beza, and the KJV translators were not doing exactly the same thing?
Most of the KJV-only arguments I've read assume the preservation/inspiration/perfection of the KJV. As I have written before, these are not logically valid. Only after you have proven such can you use it as the basis for further argumentation. These beliefs have not been proven, so assertions based on them can be ignored as irrelevant to the debate.
The KJV-only persons active here have been convinced (elsewhere) that the KJV is inspired, or inerrant, or preserved, or perfect (I recognize the views differ slightly). The others have not been convinced, and the pro- arguments are not generally convincing (in my view). Just because you have been convinced does not mean that you are correct! (granted, being unconvinced doesn't mean by itself that non-KJV-only persons are correct either). Repeated assertions of KJV perfection (etc.) really don't add to the discussion, unless they are clearly prefaced with “I believe that...”.
Okay, done for now. May the Lord bless us all with His grace, peace and wisdom.
P. 33, #592, Fredoheaven, “I do believe, the KJV is given to us by inspiration. If not, then God lie. He can’t keep His promise.”
That is narrow-minded. Remember that our understanding is limited, and that God may keep His promise perfectly in a way we don't presently see (as He did with the Incarnation). This is a common perspective among the KJV-only group... 'it must be this way'. Read up on false dichotomy fallacies... there is wisdom in allowing God to be bigger than our viewpoint. Our understanding of the promise itself may be flawed, leading us to expect or argue for some specific (but incorrect) fulfillment.
P. 30, #593, Fredoheaven, "Wescott and Hort and others founded the” ghostly guild” to do just the opposite and to dethrone the words of God."
Please check for confirmation outside of KJV-only sources. Your statement does not square with the materials I've read on the subject.
P. 33, #643, Trofimus, “Again, the question is not 'which translations is better for my theological view', but 'what was originally in the text.'"
This is SO true. It doesn't matter what we think a verse should say, especially in regard to a particular doctrine; it matters what the author actually wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Every true doctrine was true before God inspired the writer and, in human understanding, flows out of what God inspired, not the other way around.
P. 35, #683, John146, (a long post of noted differences between KJV and newer versions). This kind of reasoning is valid only if you assume that the KJV is inspired or perfect. As I have explained several times, merely noting differences does nothing to prove inspiration or which is the better translation.
... #686, GaryA, “The Holy Spirit cannot use a "corrupted" verse or passage of scripture to convict or teach.”
Where is that in Scripture? Frankly, your god is too small. I will grant that we cannot rely on any writing outside of Scripture, but I firmly believe that God can and does use many things and influences to convict and teach us, including, at times, even non-biblical literature. Paul's quotation of poetry is a prime example.
Several pro-KJV writers have asserted that there is satanic influence in newer bibles. A simple question: why do you believe there was no satanic influence in older bibles, including the KJV specifically? Logic would suggest, and Scripture declares, that the enemy was at work long before 1612. Please don't respond with any kind of “the KJV was inspired” argumentation (see below).
Some have asserted that the Enlightenment led to exaltation of man's wisdom and with it, textual criticism, (which is, in their assertion, thereby corrupt). Please explain why you think Erasmus, Beza, and the KJV translators were not doing exactly the same thing?
Most of the KJV-only arguments I've read assume the preservation/inspiration/perfection of the KJV. As I have written before, these are not logically valid. Only after you have proven such can you use it as the basis for further argumentation. These beliefs have not been proven, so assertions based on them can be ignored as irrelevant to the debate.
The KJV-only persons active here have been convinced (elsewhere) that the KJV is inspired, or inerrant, or preserved, or perfect (I recognize the views differ slightly). The others have not been convinced, and the pro- arguments are not generally convincing (in my view). Just because you have been convinced does not mean that you are correct! (granted, being unconvinced doesn't mean by itself that non-KJV-only persons are correct either). Repeated assertions of KJV perfection (etc.) really don't add to the discussion, unless they are clearly prefaced with “I believe that...”.
Okay, done for now. May the Lord bless us all with His grace, peace and wisdom.
One of the most powerful pastors I know hears by impression too. In the beginning of my walk, I heard His Voice all the time. But, I was asking many questions. Not so much now and I asked Him why recently.
It has to do with being One with Him. We begin to walk with Him sort of like a dance where the woman is backwards held by the man, and the dance becomes one. I hope that scene I see made sense. I see this as the Bride and Bridegroom dance.
Plus
To see Him in His Word...you are seeing great and mighty things. But, I know theres more for you.
It has to do with being One with Him. We begin to walk with Him sort of like a dance where the woman is backwards held by the man, and the dance becomes one. I hope that scene I see made sense. I see this as the Bride and Bridegroom dance.
Plus
To see Him in His Word...you are seeing great and mighty things. But, I know theres more for you.
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Being conformed to the image of his son will not occur until the redemption takes place. That is a future event.
And if what you are saying is true, then why print Bibles? Don't print any Bibles and solely rely on the Holy Spirit to lead you to all truth that would normally be found in His word.
When you read different versions and consult with commentaries, at the end of it all, you will be the deciding factor on what God has said. I'm sorry, I do not want to be the final authority on God's word. We have it. Read it, study it, and believe it...every word.
And if what you are saying is true, then why print Bibles? Don't print any Bibles and solely rely on the Holy Spirit to lead you to all truth that would normally be found in His word.
When you read different versions and consult with commentaries, at the end of it all, you will be the deciding factor on what God has said. I'm sorry, I do not want to be the final authority on God's word. We have it. Read it, study it, and believe it...every word.
I agree the numbers are important and I believe they are God's signature on the scripture. It is impossible for man to encode those numbers into the bible, over and over again and still maintain the message of the scripture.
Think about this, the KJV translators weren't idiots. When they translated pneuma 90 times as Holy Ghost, they knew what they were doing, it wasn't that they were incompetent. Same with pascha, they KNEW what pascha meant but in the one and only place in the bible where passover was being referenced AFTER passover had been fulfilled they translated it as Easter. Again they knew the meaning of pascha, why did they translate it as Easter? I thinks it's because the entire world today calls the fulfillment of passover Easter. There would no other motivation that I can think of to translate pascha differently in that one verse.
Think about this, the KJV translators weren't idiots. When they translated pneuma 90 times as Holy Ghost, they knew what they were doing, it wasn't that they were incompetent. Same with pascha, they KNEW what pascha meant but in the one and only place in the bible where passover was being referenced AFTER passover had been fulfilled they translated it as Easter. Again they knew the meaning of pascha, why did they translate it as Easter? I thinks it's because the entire world today calls the fulfillment of passover Easter. There would no other motivation that I can think of to translate pascha differently in that one verse.
yes, being conformed is completed after death, but I think the process starts when one first believes
the previous verse
ROMANS 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
print Bibles because reading the Bible is helpful, because God uses all things.
the previous verse
ROMANS 8:28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
print Bibles because reading the Bible is helpful, because God uses all things.
M
Apologies for the long post... there are so many recent posts that warrant a response, and I don't want to fill the page with quoted posts so I'll address specific points by writer, page and post number...
P. 33, #592, Fredoheaven, “I do believe, the KJV is given to us by inspiration. If not, then God lie. He can’t keep His promise.”
That is narrow-minded. Remember that our understanding is limited, and that God may keep His promise perfectly in a way we don't presently see (as He did with the Incarnation). This is a common perspective among the KJV-only group... 'it must be this way'. Read up on false dichotomy fallacies... there is wisdom in allowing God to be bigger than our viewpoint. Our understanding of the promise itself may be flawed, leading us to expect or argue for some specific (but incorrect) fulfillment.
P. 30, #593, Fredoheaven, "Wescott and Hort and others founded the” ghostly guild” to do just the opposite and to dethrone the words of God."
Please check for confirmation outside of KJV-only sources. Your statement does not square with the materials I've read on the subject.
P. 33, #643, Trofimus, “Again, the question is not 'which translations is better for my theological view', but 'what was originally in the text.'"
This is SO true. It doesn't matter what we think a verse should say, especially in regard to a particular doctrine; it matters what the author actually wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Every true doctrine was true before God inspired the writer and, in human understanding, flows out of what God inspired, not the other way around.
P. 35, #683, John146, (a long post of noted differences between KJV and newer versions). This kind of reasoning is valid only if you assume that the KJV is inspired or perfect. As I have explained several times, merely noting differences does nothing to prove inspiration or which is the better translation.
... #686, GaryA, “The Holy Spirit cannot use a "corrupted" verse or passage of scripture to convict or teach.”
Where is that in Scripture? Frankly, your god is too small. I will grant that we cannot rely on any writing outside of Scripture, but I firmly believe that God can and does use many things and influences to convict and teach us, including, at times, even non-biblical literature. Paul's quotation of poetry is a prime example.
Several pro-KJV writers have asserted that there is satanic influence in newer bibles. A simple question: why do you believe there was no satanic influence in older bibles, including the KJV specifically? Logic would suggest, and Scripture declares, that the enemy was at work long before 1612. Please don't respond with any kind of “the KJV was inspired” argumentation (see below).
Some have asserted that the Enlightenment led to exaltation of man's wisdom and with it, textual criticism, (which is, in their assertion, thereby corrupt). Please explain why you think Erasmus, Beza, and the KJV translators were not doing exactly the same thing?
Most of the KJV-only arguments I've read assume the preservation/inspiration/perfection of the KJV. As I have written before, these are not logically valid. Only after you have proven such can you use it as the basis for further argumentation. These beliefs have not been proven, so assertions based on them can be ignored as irrelevant to the debate.
The KJV-only persons active here have been convinced (elsewhere) that the KJV is inspired, or inerrant, or preserved, or perfect (I recognize the views differ slightly). The others have not been convinced, and the pro- arguments are not generally convincing (in my view). Just because you have been convinced does not mean that you are correct! (granted, being unconvinced doesn't mean by itself that non-KJV-only persons are correct either). Repeated assertions of KJV perfection (etc.) really don't add to the discussion, unless they are clearly prefaced with “I believe that...”.
Okay, done for now. May the Lord bless us all with His grace, peace and wisdom.
P. 33, #592, Fredoheaven, “I do believe, the KJV is given to us by inspiration. If not, then God lie. He can’t keep His promise.”
That is narrow-minded. Remember that our understanding is limited, and that God may keep His promise perfectly in a way we don't presently see (as He did with the Incarnation). This is a common perspective among the KJV-only group... 'it must be this way'. Read up on false dichotomy fallacies... there is wisdom in allowing God to be bigger than our viewpoint. Our understanding of the promise itself may be flawed, leading us to expect or argue for some specific (but incorrect) fulfillment.
P. 30, #593, Fredoheaven, "Wescott and Hort and others founded the” ghostly guild” to do just the opposite and to dethrone the words of God."
Please check for confirmation outside of KJV-only sources. Your statement does not square with the materials I've read on the subject.
P. 33, #643, Trofimus, “Again, the question is not 'which translations is better for my theological view', but 'what was originally in the text.'"
This is SO true. It doesn't matter what we think a verse should say, especially in regard to a particular doctrine; it matters what the author actually wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Every true doctrine was true before God inspired the writer and, in human understanding, flows out of what God inspired, not the other way around.
P. 35, #683, John146, (a long post of noted differences between KJV and newer versions). This kind of reasoning is valid only if you assume that the KJV is inspired or perfect. As I have explained several times, merely noting differences does nothing to prove inspiration or which is the better translation.
... #686, GaryA, “The Holy Spirit cannot use a "corrupted" verse or passage of scripture to convict or teach.”
Where is that in Scripture? Frankly, your god is too small. I will grant that we cannot rely on any writing outside of Scripture, but I firmly believe that God can and does use many things and influences to convict and teach us, including, at times, even non-biblical literature. Paul's quotation of poetry is a prime example.
Several pro-KJV writers have asserted that there is satanic influence in newer bibles. A simple question: why do you believe there was no satanic influence in older bibles, including the KJV specifically? Logic would suggest, and Scripture declares, that the enemy was at work long before 1612. Please don't respond with any kind of “the KJV was inspired” argumentation (see below).
Some have asserted that the Enlightenment led to exaltation of man's wisdom and with it, textual criticism, (which is, in their assertion, thereby corrupt). Please explain why you think Erasmus, Beza, and the KJV translators were not doing exactly the same thing?
Most of the KJV-only arguments I've read assume the preservation/inspiration/perfection of the KJV. As I have written before, these are not logically valid. Only after you have proven such can you use it as the basis for further argumentation. These beliefs have not been proven, so assertions based on them can be ignored as irrelevant to the debate.
The KJV-only persons active here have been convinced (elsewhere) that the KJV is inspired, or inerrant, or preserved, or perfect (I recognize the views differ slightly). The others have not been convinced, and the pro- arguments are not generally convincing (in my view). Just because you have been convinced does not mean that you are correct! (granted, being unconvinced doesn't mean by itself that non-KJV-only persons are correct either). Repeated assertions of KJV perfection (etc.) really don't add to the discussion, unless they are clearly prefaced with “I believe that...”.
Okay, done for now. May the Lord bless us all with His grace, peace and wisdom.