The law is not your problem.

[gotime]

I actually do think and know that the grace of God is greater than any sin as Christ has defeated it for us. I believe that it is only the teaching of the grace of God that is found in the gospel that has the power for salvation.

I believe as we grow in the Lord - the things that beset us and are deceiving us will fall off of us so I don't agree with the notion that sin is stronger than Christ. It's foolishness to my way of thinking. I believe the complete opposite.

I think the reason many here refute the "keeping of the law" for righteousness and salvation is because it actually negates the work of grace in our lives. Grace will teach us how to live godly in this world. - not the teaching or keeping of the law.

The law is the knowledge of sin - we all know within us even people that have never heard of Moses that it is wrong to steal and murder..etc.

Where the rubber meets the road in this law vs grace debates is this: If you could answer this then maybe a lot of this stuff is moot and we are dancing around the same song but with different words.

"Is a person that does not observe the Sabbath day as in the law of Moses from Friday to Saturday or observe the feast days as outlined in the law of Moses. - If the Christian doesn't do these things - are they dis-obeying God and sinning?"

I think you might be right and I have suspected this for a while. As to your question then:

Do we have to observe feast days as outlined in the law of Moses? As I am aware no as these are shadows of the work of Christ as Messiah. While they have valuable lessons within them to help us understand Jesus and know Him and his redemption better.

I am going to assume given context that the Sabbath you here refer to is not the feast Sabbaths but the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. All feast Sabbaths were finished at the cross. This is due to the fact that These again are shadows of the work of Christ as Messiah.

The 7th day Sabbath though is in the 10 commandments. What does that tell us about it?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The fact that we know that the 10 commandments show what sin is and this is clear contextually that the 10 commandments are being spoken of here. Then the Sabbath commandment also like the other nine shows what is sin by that which is good. Notice also that Paul clearly teaches that the "world" may become guilty. This is not just for Jews. A law that does not apply to Gentiles can not make them guilty or show them sin. Thus it is clear contextually that all whether Jew or Gentile are under the law before they find Christ. Thus the Sabbath commandment applies just as truly as the other nine to all the inhabitants of the world.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I think the reason many here refute the "keeping of the law" for righteousness and salvation is because it actually negates the work of grace in our lives. Grace will teach us how to live godly in this world. - not the teaching or keeping of the law.

What is frustrating to me is that people blatantly take words and twist them to suit their arguments. Unless you are debating with a Jew there is not one person that I have seen that tells you they try to keep the law for their salvation. With an attitude like this we can't move forward because people nit-pick on lies and on what they believe other people are believing.

I must confess I am frustrated when I see this blindness and blatant twisting of words.

 

[JaumeJ]

Some will say we are a broken record while they continue with the same song themselves..

It is important to teach the truth of being obedient children of the Most High God because this is our due.

It is imperative that we pass on the teaching of Jesus Christ who teaches all how to not only approach the law but how to obey it under grace................key and pivotal, under grace.

To teach Jesus does not teach the above is from ignorance of His Gospel. We are indee free of the curse of the law because of His precious Blood. Now, because of His precious Blood, hear Him and learn of Him. Paul did.

What is frustrating to me is that people blatantly take words and twist them to suit their arguments. Unless you are debating with a Jew there is not one person that I have seen that tells you they try to keep the law for their salvation. With an attitude like this we can't move forward because people nit-pick on lies and on what they believe other people are believing.

I must confess I am frustrated when I see this blindness and blatant twisting of words.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What is frustrating to me is that people blatantly take words and twist them to suit their arguments. Unless you are debating with a Jew there is not one person that I have seen that tells you they try to keep the law for their salvation. With an attitude like this we can't move forward because people nit-pick on lies and on what they believe other people are believing.

I must confess I am frustrated when I see this blindness and blatant twisting of words.

Good evening GandalfTheWhite,

There really should be no confusion. An individual is either trusting in Christ as the One who met the righteous requirements of the law and who paid the penalty for sins or they are trusting in their own efforts. If they say that they are trusting in Christ alone, but bring in their own work requirement along side of Christ's finished work, then they are really trusting in their own efforts, even though they say they are not. It is the same for those who say salvation through "Christ only" but at the same time are promoting the works of the law.

Our salvation is by trusting in Christ as the One who fulfilled the law on our behalf, rescuing us from it, and who paid the penalty for sins by the shedding of His blood. The true follower of Christ has no other requirements. The law gives sin its power and it brings wrath and condemnation when we put ourselves under the law and fail at it.

This confusion regarding salvation by grace through faith vs. works of the law, is a tactic right from Satan, because he knows that those who trust in anything other than Christ for their salvation are still lost. They provide all kinds of apologetic's to counter the truth, making a division between the Tanakh and Torah, citing certain works of the law that we are still required to keep for salvation and on and on and on. But God's word remains the same. Those who trust in anything else other than Christ for their salvation, are basically saying that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient.

Should we be zealous for good works? Most definitely! In fact, it should be a natural desire as a result of the indwelling of the Spirit. But we do our good works to glorify God, not to obtain salvation, for Christ already provided that. By good works, we are also building up our treasures in heaven.

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it." - NLT

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Hi Ahwatukee

I understand both sides and I don't have a problem that people want to be under grace. Grace is good, we all need that but in the end grace was there since day 1 and we cannot claim it to be only in the New Testament. The other side of the coin is that the law was also there since day 1 and we can't claim it to be destroyed at the cross.

We need to study the word and understand why both is in the Bible. It is clear for us to see. Not grace or the law are there for our salvation, it was always the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The other side of the coin is that the law was also there since day 1 and we can't claim it to be destroyed at the cross.

The law was not destroyed, but its requirements were met and satisfied by Christ, bringing it to completion. Its requirements have been accomplished.

The law is holy and righteous, but because of our sinful natures we are unable to keep it and so it brings wrath and condemns us when we try to keep it. That is why Jesus kinned himself with us in the flesh, i.e. as a human being in order to do in the flesh what no other human being could do.

Now, we fulfill the law by trusting in the One who kept the law perfectly. His keeping of the law is imputed to us when we trust in Him. God see us through the spectacles of Christ. This is what it means when the scripture says that we are credited with righteousness. Even though we are till sinners, God sees the believer as perfect, because Christ is perfect whom we are having faith in.

 

[gotime]

If we still continue to walk in known sin after accepting Christ how are we saved?

Paul is clear in Romans 2 that those who have the law written on their hearts actually do the law in real life. In fact its the doing of the law that shows that the law is written on the heart. This is the gift of God in Christ. Jesus actually saves us from our sinful condition. This is good news.

 

[gotime]

The law was not destroyed, but its requirements were met and satisfied by Christ, bringing it to completion. Its requirements have been accomplished.

The law is holy and righteous, but because of our sinful natures we are unable to keep it and so it brings wrath and condemns us when we try to keep it. That is why Jesus kinned himself with us in the flesh, i.e. as a human being in order to do in the flesh what no other human being could do.

Now, we fulfill the law by trusting in the One who kept the law perfectly. His keeping of the law is imputed to us when we trust in Him. God see us through the spectacles of Christ. This is what it means when the scripture says that we are credited with righteousness. Even though we are till sinners, God sees the believer as perfect, because Christ is perfect whom we are having faith in.[/COLOR]

Are you suggesting that Salvation is simply a cover over reality?

If this is so I find this an insufficient salvation. If God can speak something into existence then why has he not the power to actually save us from our problem, which is sin? It is not simply our guilt from sinning that is the issue, The issue is that we sin. Can God not save us from this?

 

[beta]

It is so sad when you see the Commandments of God and Christ - which are 'loving God and neighbour' - demoted to 'works of the law of Moses and abolished , since keeping any of them makes you a 'cursed legalist.
I wonder how Jesus will respond to this attitude on His and His Fathers teaching when He returns ?

 

[Ahwatukee]

If God can speak something into existence then why has he not the power to actually save us from our problem, which is sin?

Then where would free will be? Would we not then be robot's? God did save from our problem; His name is Jesus Christ. People seem to have a problem with the concept of "free gift," They continue to want to earn it by their own efforts.

 

[Ahwatukee]

If we still continue to walk in known sin after accepting Christ how are we saved?

I never said that the believer could continue to walk in known sin. The true believer in Christ is wrestling with the sinful nature. For scripture states that flesh wrestles against the Spirit and the Spirit wrestles against the flesh, for they are contrary to one another. Scripture makes very clear, that willfully living according to the sinful nature leads to death. The person who is truly in Christ and led by the Spirit, will not be able to continue in the sinful nature and that because the Spirit of God dwells within and the word of God remains in him/her. They will not be able to happily remain in it, but will be fighting to overcome that nature.

In fact its the doing of the law that shows that the law is written on the heart.

We fulfill the law by trusting in Christ and are saved, not by performing and trusting in the works of the law.

 

[JaumeJ]

Jesus Christ teaches the law, clarifying it and expanding upon it in His Gospel.


When He made all foods clean, He made it clear all thing received with thanksgiving are lawful Nothing by entering the body corrupsts the body..you should know the rest.


He is our High Priest and being so He teaches us to always think in terms of mercy and justice with faith when studying the law.


Reading His sermon on the mount we learn how He always desires mercy first and never sacrifice, although we are encouraged to give the sacrifice of thanksgiving always.


He replaced all the Levitical laws for priests with Himself, for He is our High Priest.


He became the one-time-only sacrifice for sin for all who will believe Him rendering all sacrificial laws useless.


Almost all of the law, clarified and taught by Jesus Christ, should be elemental to any who have received the Holy Spirit and know the Love that is God, therefor anyone saying an obedient child of God in Jesus Christ is under the law is either ignorant of the teaching of our Savior or Satanic. Satan was disobedient from the beginning and he loves when God's childre follow him in this manner.


Obedience is not a sin. Teaching against it knowingly is a sin. I live in grace and mercy, yet I do my best to be obedient because it is taught to be so.....It is not taught anywhere in the New or Old Testament to be disobedient, again, this is of the enemy. Resist the devil and he will flee.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Then where would free will be? Would we not then be robot's? God did save from our problem; His name is Jesus Christ. People seem to have a problem with the concept of "free gift," They continue to want to earn it by their own efforts.

Now we are moving closer to the root of the problem. You see the law as a form of judgment and not guidelines to a closer relationship with God.

God said that His Torah is a marriage contract. It was never there to judge but to build relationship. The Jews changed it to this form of court martial for not keeping God's word.

If we think God is going to lower or change His standards we are not serving a non-changing God.

After the fall of Adam and Eve God was not looking for perfection but availability to listen to instruction. The word is clear about this.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Then where would free will be?

By saying this do we believe that the Israelites could not practice free will before Jesus came?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

The law was not destroyed, but its requirements were met and satisfied by Christ, bringing it to completion. Its requirements have been accomplished.

The law is holy and righteous, but because of our sinful natures we are unable to keep it and so it brings wrath and condemns us when we try to keep it. That is why Jesus kinned himself with us in the flesh, i.e. as a human being in order to do in the flesh what no other human being could do.

Now, we fulfill the law by trusting in the One who kept the law perfectly. His keeping of the law is imputed to us when we trust in Him. God see us through the spectacles of Christ. This is what it means when the scripture says that we are credited with righteousness. Even though we are till sinners, God sees the believer as perfect, because Christ is perfect whom we are having faith in.[/COLOR]

Why would God destroy something that is holy and righteous brother? It doesn't make sense.

We are not lower class children of God. God calls us to relationship and provide us with His guidelines.

If we believe there is a before and after mentality with God, will we be judged differently from people that died in the Old Testament ? Are we then not advocating a changing God? Think about it. God is not changing. We are missing something if we can't bring law and grace together my dear friend in Christ.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why would God destroy something that is holy and righteous brother? It doesn't make sense.

Gandalf,

I notice that you keep using the word "destroy," which is incorrect. You are however correct in that, the law is holy and righteous. It is us who have a sinful nature that are unable to keep the law. And because of that, when we try to keep it, it brings wrath and condemns us. As I said in a previous post, God did not destroy the law, he came in the flesh as a human and met its requirements and that on our behalf. We who are in Christ have been crucified with Christ and are therefore dead to the law. Anyone who wants to put themselves under the law, must keep the entire law, all the time and without fail. Then when you break it, it brings wrath and condemns. As an example, Moses sinned just once by striking the rock twice, ruining God's teaching type, which was meant to represent the Rock/Jesus being struck once for sin and from that striking came living water, which is figurative of eternal life. This one sin kept Moses from entering into the promise land.

Are we then not advocating a changing God? Think about it. God is not changing. We are missing something if we can't bring law and grace together my dear friend in Christ.

God has not changed. The promise of salvation by grace through faith was given through Abraham, which was given 430 years before the law. Consequently, the law that was given 430 years after the promise to Abraham does not nullify the covenant of the promise. The law was given to show us our sinful nature and was only meant to last until the promised seed had come, which is Christ. Now that he has come, we are no longer under the tutelage of the law. (Galatians 3:17)

We fulfill the law by having faith in Christ. If we seek to earn our salvation by performing the works of the law, we are not trusting in Christ, but in our own efforts, which alienates us from Christ.

I pray that God will give you understanding what I am proclaiming from scripture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

By saying this do we believe that the Israelites could not practice free will before Jesus came?

Israel was/is trying to obtain righteousness with God by keeping the works of the law. Below is what Paul has to say about this very issue:

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone." - Romans 9:30

 

[Grace777x70]

I think you might be right and I have suspected this for a while. As to your question then:

Do we have to observe feast days as outlined in the law of Moses? As I am aware no as these are shadows of the work of Christ as Messiah. While they have valuable lessons within them to help us understand Jesus and know Him and his redemption better.

I am going to assume given context that the Sabbath you here refer to is not the feast Sabbaths but the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. All feast Sabbaths were finished at the cross. This is due to the fact that These again are shadows of the work of Christ as Messiah.

The 7th day Sabbath though is in the 10 commandments. What does that tell us about it?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The fact that we know that the 10 commandments show what sin is and this is clear contextually that the 10 commandments are being spoken of here. Then the Sabbath commandment also like the other nine shows what is sin by that which is good. Notice also that Paul clearly teaches that the "world" may become guilty. This is not just for Jews. A law that does not apply to Gentiles can not make them guilty or show them sin. Thus it is clear contextually that all whether Jew or Gentile are under the law before they find Christ. Thus the Sabbath commandment applies just as truly as the other nine to all the inhabitants of the world.

I agree that there are many good things in the feasts that show the wonderful work of the Lord Jesus Christ and I love to hear people peak and teach about these things. I also love to hear teachers speak about the Hebrew language and the meanings and displays of Christ in them.

So, in other words - if people don't keep the Sabbath day as in the law of Moses - they are in your mind dis-obeying God and are in fact sinning. That's what I am reading from your post here.

There are Christians that believe that Jesus is the substance of all the law of Moses and that they speak about Him - that He has fulfilled all things - the law including the Sabbath is but a shadow of the real thing which is and always will be Christ Himself and so He is our Sabbath rest as Hebrews 4 talks about.

Resting in Christ's work for us on the cross and resurrection of which we have died with Him. This is the reason we have died to the law, been released from the law, and not under the law - SO THAT we could be joined to Another - Christ Himself.

To me - saying that "If gentiles do not keep the Sabbath Day as in the law of Moses - they are dis-obeying God and are sinning " - This is a Judaizer belief system which is anti-Christ at it's core. - because of what so many have shown to those that say we must keep the law of Moses now that we are Christians . Paul has refuted that in Galatians and in Romans.

We can trust the life of Christ in us now. We don't need the law to tell us how to live - we are under grace now and NOT the law of Moses and grace "teaches" us how to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in this present age. Titus 2:11-12. This is why we are NOT under the law anymore but under grace only.

This is the real reason why some extreme sects of the Hebrew Roots movement are being shown to in fact be Judaziers and they are as Paul said - perverting and distorting the gospel of the grace of Christ.

You will constantly be having people come against this distortion of the gospel.

 

[FreeNChrist]

“Prostitutes are in no danger of finding their present life so satisfactory that they cannot turn to God: the proud, the avaricious, the self-righteous, are in that danger.”

- C S Lewis

 

[eternally-gratefull]

“Prostitutes are in no danger of finding their present life so satisfactory that they cannot turn to God: the proud, the avaricious, the self-righteous, are in that danger.”

- C S Lewis

Jesus came to heal the sick. The righteous (self) do not think they are sick, So he can do nothing for them. Amen.