The law is not your problem.

[gotime]

I agree that there are many good things in the feasts that show the wonderful work of the Lord Jesus Christ and I love to hear people peak and teach about these things. I also love to hear teachers speak about the Hebrew language and the meanings and displays of Christ in them.

So, in other words - if people don't keep the Sabbath day as in the law of Moses - they are in your mind dis-obeying God and are in fact sinning. That's what I am reading from your post here.

There are Christians that believe that Jesus is the substance of all the law of Moses and that they speak about Him - that He has fulfilled all things - the law including the Sabbath is but a shadow of the real thing which is and always will be Christ Himself and so He is our Sabbath rest as Hebrews 4 talks about.

Resting in Christ's work for us on the cross and resurrection of which we have died with Him. This is the reason we have died to the law, been released from the law, and not under the law - SO THAT we could be joined to Another - Christ Himself.

To me - saying that "If gentiles do not keep the Sabbath Day as in the law of Moses - they are dis-obeying God and are sinning " - This is a Judaizer belief system which is anti-Christ at it's core. - because of what so many have shown to those that say we must keep the law of Moses now that we are Christians . Paul has refuted that in Galatians and in Romans.

We can trust the life of Christ in us now. We don't need the law to tell us how to live - we are under grace now and NOT the law of Moses and grace "teaches" us how to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in this present age. Titus 2:11-12. This is why we are NOT under the law anymore but under grace only.

This is the real reason why some extreme sects of the Hebrew Roots movement are being shown to in fact be Judaziers and they are as Paul said - perverting and distorting the gospel of the grace of Christ.

You will constantly be having people come against this distortion of the gospel.

I hear what you are saying. I know many in fact most believe that the Sabbath in the 10 commandments is a shadow fulfilled in Christ. I still think it is sin to not keep it but for most it would be a sin of ignorance. This means in my view that not keeping the Sabbath while I believe it is sin does not make all those who don't unsaved. So I don't think that because someone does not keep the Sabbath that they are lost. I believe they are following Christ in what they know. And thus are covered with the blood of Jesus for salvation.

However this is the issue, The Sabbath most clearly is not a shadow. Paul as I have shown clearly teaches the law applies to all whether Jew or Gentile. In fact you must believe this to be a Gentile and think the law points out sin. So that all both the Jew and the Gentile are under the law until they come to Christ.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Did Christ not come to redeem even the Gentiles. Thus all are under the law until they come to Christ. This includes the Sabbath commandment.

What I think is the problem here is your assumptions on Paul's writings. Paul is not talking about weather the law is obeyed by believers or not in regards to the 10 commandments. He is talking about how one is saved. Are they saved by works of the law or faith. Clearly the answer is faith. But as far as the keeping of the law Paul is also clear in Romans, That even Gentiles who have not the law keep it because the law is written on their hears. And thus they actually do what the Jews failed because the Jews did not have faith. I can support this with scripture if you want.

But if we are going to move on in this conversation i suggest we tackle one point at a time. For example, the shadow issue. or the does it aply to Gentiles issue. Etc.

 

[Grace777x70]

I hear what you are saying. I know many in fact most believe that the Sabbath in the 10 commandments is a shadow fulfilled in Christ. I still think it is sin to not keep it but for most it would be a sin of ignorance. This means in my view that not keeping the Sabbath while I believe it is sin does not make all those who don't unsaved. So I don't think that because someone does not keep the Sabbath that they are lost. I believe they are following Christ in what they know. And thus are covered with the blood of Jesus for salvation.

However this is the issue, The Sabbath most clearly is not a shadow. Paul as I have shown clearly teaches the law applies to all whether Jew or Gentile. In fact you must believe this to be a Gentile and think the law points out sin. So that all both the Jew and the Gentile are under the law until they come to Christ.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Did Christ not come to redeem even the Gentiles. Thus all are under the law until they come to Christ. This includes the Sabbath commandment.

What I think is the problem here is your assumptions on Paul's writings. Paul is not talking about weather the law is obeyed by believers or not in regards to the 10 commandments. He is talking about how one is saved. Are they saved by works of the law or faith. Clearly the answer is faith. But as far as the keeping of the law Paul is also clear in Romans, That even Gentiles who have not the law keep it because the law is written on their hears. And thus they actually do what the Jews failed because the Jews did not have faith. I can support this with scripture if you want.

The truth is that Christians have died to the law, been released from the law are not under the law but grace only - and Paul said that the law is the 10 commandments and Hebrews said that the sacrificial part was the law too. They can't be separated out.

We can trust the life of Christ in us for life and living. Grace teaches us how to live godly in this present world - not the law. Titus 2:11-12

None of the sides here are going to budge so most likely all this is useless except for young Christians viewing these threads - they can have the Holy Spirit speak to them about what they are to do.

I will say that if some extreme sects of the Hebrew Roots people say that "Christian's are sinning because they don't follow the Sabbath in the law of Moses" - they will be called Judaizers and I will have to agree 100% with them on that and so would Paul.

I'll just leave it at that. Bless you and have a great rest of the day.

 

[Dai3234]

The truth is that Christians have died to the law, been released from the law are not under the law but grace only - and Paul said that the law is the 10 commandments and Hebrews said that the sacrificial part was the law too. They can't be separated out.

We can trust the life of Christ in us for life and living. Grace teaches us how to live godly in this present world - not the law. Titus 2:11-12

None of the sides here are going to budge so most likely all this is useless except for young Christians viewing these threads - they can have the Holy Spirit speak to them about what they are to do.

I will say that if some extreme sects of the Hebrew Roots people say that "Christian's are sinning because they don't follow the Sabbath in the law of Moses" - they will be called Judaizers and I will have to agree 100% with them on that and so would Paul.

I'll just leave it at that. Bless you and have a great rest of the day.

Isn't the rest day from genesis, when god rested? And the law is fulfilled. Isn't it said from Christ something about they are man's days given to do his choice with ceremony days as a gift or something? Christ gives us rest etc.

 

[Grandpa]

I think you might be right and I have suspected this for a while. As to your question then:

Do we have to observe feast days as outlined in the law of Moses? As I am aware no as these are shadows of the work of Christ as Messiah. While they have valuable lessons within them to help us understand Jesus and know Him and his redemption better.

I am going to assume given context that the Sabbath you here refer to is not the feast Sabbaths but the Sabbath of the Ten Commandments. All feast Sabbaths were finished at the cross. This is due to the fact that These again are shadows of the work of Christ as Messiah.

The 7th day Sabbath though is in the 10 commandments. What does that tell us about it?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The fact that we know that the 10 commandments show what sin is and this is clear contextually that the 10 commandments are being spoken of here. Then the Sabbath commandment also like the other nine shows what is sin by that which is good. Notice also that Paul clearly teaches that the "world" may become guilty. This is not just for Jews. A law that does not apply to Gentiles can not make them guilty or show them sin. Thus it is clear contextually that all whether Jew or Gentile are under the law before they find Christ. Thus the Sabbath commandment applies just as truly as the other nine to all the inhabitants of the world.

Matthew 22:35-40
[FONT=&quot]35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38 This is the first and great commandment.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


What about rest on saturdays? How come the Lord did not address that here? It would have been the perfect opportunity, right?

The Lord Jesus had much bigger ideas for the sabbath than simply a carnal keeping of saturdays. The Law is spiritual. But not killing another person or resting on saturdays is not spiritual. Its a carnal understanding of a spiritual law.


[/FONT]

 

[gotime]

The truth is that Christians have died to the law, been released from the law are not under the law but grace only - and Paul said that the law is the 10 commandments and Hebrews said that the sacrificial part was the law too. They can't be separated out.

We can trust the life of Christ in us for life and living. Grace teaches us how to live godly in this present world - not the law. Titus 2:11-12

None of the sides here are going to budge so most likely all this is useless except for young Christians viewing these threads - they can have the Holy Spirit speak to them about what they are to do.

I will say that if some extreme sects of the Hebrew Roots people say that "Christian's are sinning because they don't follow the Sabbath in the law of Moses" - they will be called Judaizers and I will have to agree 100% with them on that and so would Paul.

I'll just leave it at that. Bless you and have a great rest of the day.

I know people will say that, but they have nor real basis form the bible to say that. I appreciate the chat.

 

[KohenMatt]

I notice that you keep using the word "destroy," which is incorrect. You are however correct in that, the law is holy and righteous. It is us who have a sinful nature that are unable to keep the law. And because of that, when we try to keep it, it brings wrath and condemns us. As I said in a previous post, God did not destroy the law, he came in the flesh as a human and met its requirements and that on our behalf. We who are in Christ have been crucified with Christ and are therefore dead to the law.

If the Law is holy and righteous, and Jesus' sacrifice met it's requirements, what practical role does the Law play for Christians today?

Anyone who wants to put themselves under the law, must keep the entire law, all the time and without fail. Then when you break it, it brings wrath and condemns.

What happens to those Believers who have put their faith in Jesus' salvation, if they break one of the individual laws and thus all of them? What is the consequence?

 

[gotime]

Matthew 22:35-40
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


What about rest on saturdays? How come the Lord did not address that here? It would have been the perfect opportunity, right?This question makes a false assumption. Namely that it was even an issue. This is an argument of assumption.

The Lord Jesus had much bigger ideas for the sabbath than simply a carnal keeping of saturdays. The Law is spiritual. But not killing another person or resting on saturdays is not spiritual. Its a carnal understanding of a spiritual law.

Jesus is speaking of the heart here. this was the issue all the time. Israel did not have the he art to obey. Thus they tried to obey without the heart to obey as it is written:

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

But in Christ we have been given new hearts and thus obey the very spirit of the law.

So can none obey the spirit of the law and not keep it physically?

Can a person not steal in spirit yet steal physically? no of course not.

So then can one keep the Sabbath Holy on the 7th day Spiritually while totally ignoring the 7th day? Again no. this is a clever way of twisting scripture. So that people can say they obey when they do not. thus revealing that their heart is still carnal, It is the carnal heart that can not obey. Some try in their flesh. But only the new heart given in Christ can truly obey.

 

[Grandpa]

Jesus is speaking of the heart here. this was the issue all the time. Israel did not have the he art to obey. Thus they tried to obey without the heart to obey as it is written:

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

But in Christ we have been given new hearts and thus obey the very spirit of the law.

So can none obey the spirit of the law and not keep it physically?

Can a person not steal in spirit yet steal physically? no of course not.

So then can one keep the Sabbath Holy on the 7th day Spiritually while totally ignoring the 7th day? Again no. this is a clever way of twisting scripture. So that people can say they obey when they do not. thus revealing that their heart is still carnal, It is the carnal heart that can not obey. Some try in their flesh. But only the new heart given in Christ can truly obey.

People don't keep commandments spiritually. People don't have the power to keep commandments spiritually.

Only the Lord Jesus Christ can keep commandments spiritually. If people desired to keep commandments they would trust that the Lord Jesus grows the fruit of spiritual obedience in their lives.

That's why this 7th day sabbath is such an issue. You can either rest in Christ or you can work at the law. You can't do both or you are double minded.

James 1:6-8
[FONT=&quot]6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Do you see?[/FONT]

 

[gotime]

People don't keep commandments spiritually. People don't have the power to keep commandments spiritually.

Only the Lord Jesus Christ can keep commandments spiritually. If people desired to keep commandments they would trust that the Lord Jesus grows the fruit of spiritual obedience in their lives.

That's why this 7th day sabbath is such an issue. You can either rest in Christ or you can work at the law. You can't do both or you are double minded.

James 1:6-8
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any hing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Do you see?

why do you assume that I think its a human effort? Oh Yes the Sabbath. So you think that a person who has faith can not do physical things? So is baptism a demonstration of unbelief? For you must think it is a carnal work of man? Now I know you do not think that but it illustrates a faulty argument. That just because something can be done in the physical body does not make it a carnal thing to do.

Come on this is human reasoning. You have zero scripture that can show that keeping the Sabbath holy is only works based. Sure it can be just like it can be for all 10 commandments. But it also can be a spiritual reality. I can't really get this through though because I know you wont address scripture on this topic. So guess we will just leave it.

 

[gotime]

How about this Grandpa,

Show me scripture that shows that if someone actually keeps the Sabbath Holy that it can not be by faith and has to be by works.

 

[Grandpa]

why do you assume that I think its a human effort? Oh Yes the Sabbath. So you think that a person who has faith can not do physical things? So is baptism a demonstration of unbelief? For you must think it is a carnal work of man? Now I know you do not think that but it illustrates a faulty argument. That just because something can be done in the physical body does not make it a carnal thing to do.

Come on this is human reasoning. You have zero scripture that can show that keeping the Sabbath holy is only works based. Sure it can be just like it can be for all 10 commandments. But it also can be a spiritual reality. I can't really get this through though because I know you wont address scripture on this topic. So guess we will just leave it.

Hebrews 4:4-10
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.


Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Galatians 3:2-3

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:7-12

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

[Grace777x70]

The 10 commandments were called the ministry of condemnation and of death by Paul. We can trust the life of Christ in us to live godly in this world.

The grace of God "teaches" now in the New Covenant how to deny ungodliness and to live sensibly, righteous and godly in this present age - NOT the law of Moses. Titus 2:11-12

The 10 commandments are called the "letter that kills" and the "ministry of death" - The New Covenant is called the "ministry of the Spirit" that brings Life.

The 10 commandments were called "the ministry of condemnation" - the New Covenant is called "the ministry of righteousness." This is Christ's righteousness given to us that believe.

2 Corinthians 3:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[SUP]7 [/SUP] But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

[SUP]8 [/SUP] how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

[SUP]9 [/SUP] For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

The law of Moses including the 10 commandments are like an x-ray machine - they show up things that are wrong but the x-ray machine has no power to "fix it".

It just reveals what is wrong. It's the same here for Christ Himself and His life in our new hearts is the only thing that can "fix us" with a transformed live.

 

[gotime]

Well thanx guys for the good talk back and fourth. I can agree with many things that have been said, But as you know I do not agree on everything. I have put my bit and am happy. good chatting.

 

[dalconn]

If anyone could keep the law then Christ died in vain...thank you Jesus for doing for me what I could never do, amen!

 

[Grace777x70]

Well thanx guys for the good talk back and fourth. I can agree with many things that have been said, But as you know I do not agree on everything. I have put my bit and am happy. good chatting.

Bless you brother...we look forward to spending eternity with you...it'll be awesome because Jesus our Lord will be there. He is our true treasure.

 

[gotime]

Just want you guys to know that I do not question your salvation in Christ or your motives. Blessings.

 

[JaumeJ]

Christ's suffering and sacrifice on the cross is by no means and excuse to deliberately disobey the law. No man will be perfect in this age, other than our Savior, but grace is not license to disobey.

It is our living in sin which cause His agony, so may all who know Him understand dhow He teaches obedience, yes, of the law, within the boundaries of grace. There are NO boundaries, but we must do as the Holy Spirit guides us, and the Holy Spirit guides all to obedience, never to disobedience.

If anyone could keep the law then Christ died in vain...thank you Jesus for doing for me what I could never do, amen!

 

[beta]

If anyone could keep the law then Christ died in vain...thank you Jesus for doing for me what I could never do, amen!

You are right, without Christ we can not keep the law/Commandments of God.
But what happens when we are given the SPIRIT of CHRIST ? what does that do for us ?
Are we left helpless and impotent ? Does He not heal us from all our infirmities and weaknessess ?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

If the Law is holy and righteous, and Jesus' sacrifice met it's requirements, what practical role does the Law play for Christians today?



What happens to those Believers who have put their faith in Jesus' salvation, if they break one of the individual laws and thus all of them? What is the consequence?

It must be lousy to be married to some of the saints on CC. We are willing to enter the ketubah with Christ but we are not willing to accept the content of the contract.

It is like I agree to get married to my wife but I still want to have a sexual relationship with my ex.... Why would she be interested in that half-commitment?

God is clear that He wants our everything. That is why He divorced Israel.

 

[Grandpa]

It must be lousy to be married to some of the saints on CC. We are willing to enter the ketubah with Christ but we are not willing to accept the content of the contract.

It is like I agree to get married to my wife but I still want to have a sexual relationship with my ex.... Why would she be interested in that half-commitment?

God is clear that He wants our everything. That is why He divorced Israel.

How ironic. That's what you guys do who go back to the law.

You want the blessing of Christ but you want to bring your ex with you (working at the law) into the relationship.

Galatians 3:23-25
[FONT=&quot]23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


But that can't be true, can it? Paul must be wrong here. How is it possible to not be under the law? And I mean completely not under the law. Not to observe it, not to try to keep it, not to let it be our "tutor" or our "guide". Dead to it.

That was weird how you described your own situation and then your own solution.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
[/FONT]