The law is not your problem.

[Grandpa]

What role does Scripture play in that? What purpose does Jesus' instructions in the Word serve?

It brings you to Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

Married to the covenant? LOL Israel was never married to a covenant

Romans 7:4-6
[FONT=&quot]4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.[/FONT]

 

[JaumeJ]

Good morning. In your mention of parables, and your alluding to the law, prophesies, the Apostles, and more, I truly love how the prophesy of His parable of the sower is first mentioned in some regard in the law to not sow two kinds of seed in the same field. With Christ's parable of the sower we understand in depth the reasons for this particular law......there is much to learn from prayer and meditation when reading the laws....Jesus does clarify all of the law.

see thats your problem , without the apostle or paul or hebrew, you would not know what the lord has done for you.

Prophecy and Parables
34 All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable.35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables;
I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."Matthew 13

that s why history will tell you ,not until around 1500ad ,not many knew they way to a saviour. ie the bible going to print etc

 

[kohelet]

Just want you guys to know that I do not question your salvation in Christ or your motives. Blessings.

Hi gotime,

By this you mean that you don't question our being saved by grace, through faith. We are saved on this basis, regardless of what we do with the Sabbath, is that right? I was curious and have been looking at these threads for a bit of an indication.

 

[gotime]

Hi gotime,

By this you mean that you don't question our being saved by grace, through faith. We are saved on this basis, regardless of what we do with the Sabbath, is that right? I was curious and have been looking at these threads for a bit of an indication.

I simply mean I do not question peoples salvation. I don't know you and I don't know what you understand or what you don't understand. Whether you are saved or not is not for me to decide but for God. Therefore I do not question peoples salvation as it is not my place. I can not read the heart.

 

[kohelet]

I simply mean I do not question peoples salvation. I don't know you and I don't know what you understand or what you don't understand. Whether you are saved or not is not for me to decide but for God. Therefore I do not question peoples salvation as it is not my place. I can not read the heart.

Ah, I see, thanks gotime. I think you might have a rough idea of what evangelicals understand though, after 5 years and 3000+ posts. But you may be addressing people contributing to this thread who may not hold this view, of course.

Would it be right to believe, on the basis of Ephesians 2:8-9, that faith is all that is necessary for us to be saved: "For by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (cf. John 3:16)?

 

[gotime]

Ah, I see, thanks gotime. I think you might have a rough idea of what evangelicals understand though, after 5 years and 3000+ posts. But you may be addressing people contributing to this thread who may not hold this view, of course.

Would it be right to believe, on the basis of Ephesians 2:8-9, that faith is all that is necessary for us to be saved: "For by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (cf. John 3:16)?

Faith is the victory and even faith is given by God.

 

[kohelet]

Faith is the victory and even faith is given by God.

Well, that's the thing though. Is it? I was looking at an It Is Written study the other day and discovered the teaching there that it is those who keep the Sabbath who are are obeying God; others are following man's religion. "The Sabbath is a special sign, or seal, between God and his people." Sunday worship, on the other hand, is the mark of the beast. "These signs represent two systems of religion - one initiated by God, one initiated by human beings. One the way of truth! One the way of error! To every soul will come the crucial test: shall I obey God, or shall I obey humanity?"

I understand that where this "is written" is in prophecies by Mrs White in her The Great Controversy.

We can't have it both ways. Either the defining point of salvation is the work of correctly following a law or it is having faith and believing that Jesus has accomplished all the work necessary for our salvation.

I imagine that you have written so much about the importance of observing the Sabbath (as you see it) precisely for this reason - because it is a matter of our salvation or our being eternally lost.

 

[gotime]

Well, that's the thing though. Is it? I was looking at an It Is Written study the other day and discovered the teaching there that it is those who keep the Sabbath who are are obeying God; others are following man's religion. "The Sabbath is a special sign, or seal, between God and his people." Sunday worship, on the other hand, is the mark of the beast. "These signs represent two systems of religion - one initiated by God, one initiated by human beings. One the way of truth! One the way of error! To every soul will come the crucial test: shall I obey God, or shall I obey humanity?"

I understand that where this "is written" is in prophecies by Mrs White in her The Great Controversy.

We can't have it both ways. Either the defining point of salvation is the work of correctly following a law or it is having faith and believing that Jesus has accomplished all the work necessary for our salvation.

I imagine that you have written so much about the importance of observing the Sabbath (as you see it) precisely for this reason - because it is a matter of our salvation or our being eternally lost.

I do not agree with your reasoning here and find it lacking integrity. (not you, the reasoning) One has to differentiate between cause and effect.

For example, A Farmer only keeps the trees that bear fruit. But destroys any tree that does not bare fruit. However unless the tree has good soil it will not grow properly and bare good fruit. But if this Tree is in good soil it will bare good Fruit.

Now the soil is the cause but the good fruit is the effect.

Now if I say the tree will not be kept unless it has good soil, the statement is true. But it is also true to say if the tree does not bear good fruit it will not be kept. Both are true but it is still the good soil that is the saving agent for the tree. The fruit is simply the inevitable result of that good soil.

So one can rightly say that unless the tree brings fourth good fruit it will not be kept. While not meaning at all that it is the fruit that is the saving agent of the tree but rather the evidence that the saving agent the good soil is present.

I know the illustration is lacking but just focus on the point and it will work.

So the real issue here is not faith vs works, but rather what is the fruit of faith. I believe the fruit of faith in Christ ultimately is freedom from sin and thus naturally one obeys Gods law not to be saved but because they are saved. In fact to not obey is what we are when we are not saved but simply under law. salvation is from this slave to sin state.

 

[kohelet]

I do not agree with your reasoning here and find it lacking integrity. (not you, the reasoning) One has to differentiate between cause and effect.

For example, A Farmer only keeps the trees that bear fruit. But destroys any tree that does not bare fruit. However unless the tree has good soil it will not grow properly and bare good fruit. But if this Tree is in good soil it will bare good Fruit.

Now the soil is the cause but the good fruit is the effect.

Now if I say the tree will not be kept unless it has good soil, the statement is true. But it is also true to say if the tree does not bear good fruit it will not be kept. Both are true but it is still the good soil that is the saving agent for the tree. The fruit is simply the inevitable result of that good soil.

So one can rightly say that unless the tree brings fourth good fruit it will not be kept. While not meaning at all that it is the fruit that is the saving agent of the tree but rather the evidence that the saving agent the good soil is present.

I know the illustration is lacking but just focus on the point and it will work.

So the real issue here is not faith vs works, but rather what is the fruit of faith. I believe the fruit of faith in Christ ultimately is freedom from sin and thus naturally one obeys Gods law not to be saved but because they are saved. In fact to not obey is what we are when we are not saved but simply under law. salvation is from this slave to sin state.

Thanks for putting me in the clear integrity-wise!

The point of your illustration could have been kept at just that, a point. Good fruit will be the outcome of the roots of its tree going down into good soil. Or if we think in terms of grapes, of their abiding in the vine. And I agree with you.

But since anyone who is in Christ "no longer lives under the requirements of the law but under the freedom of God's grace" (Romans 6:14) and because "the law of the Spirit of life has set [him] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2), although nine of the ten commandments also apply under the new covenant, the fourth does not. Jesus, as we've discussed elsewhere, is our Sabbath rest.

I'm not anti-law, I'm for the law, the law of Christ, which deals not only with actions and behaviour but also with the intent of the heart and attitudes. But keeping the Sabbath is not part of it.

So if we find someone saying, as Mrs White does, that our salvation is dependent on our keeping the Sabbath, we certainly will be adding a "work" - of following a now defunct law, rather than being saved by grace, through faith alone. It is nonsense to say that Sunday observance is the mark of the beast. It's simply wrong, gotime my friend. It isn't biblical; it is an aberrant notion and you couldn't be more mistaken.

You would no doubt insist that good fruit includes also accepting the teaching concerning the so-called investigative judgment, a view held by no group other than the Seventh-Day Adventists. The corollary of this is that there is salvation in no other group, something all the cults claim.

I dare say others have made these points to you over the years, so I wonder, frankly, what I'm doing repeating them. I don't doubt that you benefit from keeping the Sabbath - you should continue to keep it. What you shouldn't do is insist we all observe it. You are not to judge anyone by the day they keep (Colossians 2:16). It is most certainly not a requirement for salvation.

Here endeth not only the lesson, but also my part in the discussion. I enjoy our chats - and I like you - but I think my time can be better spent, for now, at least (never say never!) on other things.

 

[followjesus]

It seems that many think Jesus came to do away with the law. I can see why at a glance this is assumed but let us examine the purpose of the law and in particular the 10 commandment law.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

First we note the law was designed to lead us to Jesus that we could be justified by faith not works of the law but faith. Once this faith comes we no longer need the law to bring us to Christ because we are there.

So first point is that the law was designed to bring us to Jesus to be saved by faith.

what function did the law play in order to do this?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The law reveals sin, notice that this is its function to reveal or make sin known. Its purpose is to bring us to Christ for salvation buts its function is to make sin known.

Is the law itself sin, if not how does it reveal sin?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The law is not sin, but rather reveals or gives an knowledge of sin by showing what is good.

But we fall short of it and thus because we are breaking that law we know we are sinners.


So we know that the purpose of the law was to lead us to salvation in Christ, it does this by revealing that we are breaking the law and thus sinning. The law itself is good and holy and spiritual. The problem is we are not.

So then does this mean that sin only existed after the law was given?


Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Notice death came by sin and death reigned form Adam to Moses. Thus sin was in the world before the law. as we have seen the law simply points it out so that we are without excuse:



Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.


Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

In Galatians it says it this way:

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

It was added because of transgression or in other words sin. So that all would be guilty and see their need of saving.

So we note that the law is good that it reveals sin and thus a need for a saviour. We know sin was in the world before the law was added. All the law did was make us knowledgeable of that sin and thus under condemnation and in need of salvation in Christ.

This automatically tells us that Christ did not come to get rid of the law for it is good and spiritual. But rather he came to save from sin. The whole reason he gave the law was so we would see our sin and our need of saving.

Our problem is not the law, it has always been sin. The law had no power to free us form sin. Many tried to keep it by in their flesh but all failed as the law could not save but rather reveal our hopeless condition. Jesus gives us hope and faith. He offers what we could not do ourselves. He offers to free us from sin. that is why he came:

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Jesus makes us free form sin and thus the condemnation of the law. and thus the very law that condemned the hopeless sinner becomes a witness to those who are saved from sin by faith as it is written:



Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

The righteousness of God that is not by works of the law is witnessed by the law and the prophets. That the law is written on the heart. That the sinner has been saved from sin.

Where once thou shalt not kill condemned the sinner, now it witnesses to the one saved that he does not kill and thus is of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Jesus is able to save us by his promises. praise God.

The Law of moses is no more applicable to those in Christ. the Gospel is the applicable Law. there are 2 covenants in the bible. One is meant to condemn, the other is meant to rebuild.

Jesus fulfilled the covenant of the first, and Gave the new and true covenant. the first is of the levitical priesthood and the priesthood is now Jesus Christ in the order of Melchezidek. We have a better Law that Heals what the old tore down in order to humble mankind before God, and provide our hearts with a complete need to be saved By God. consider this :

Abraham was told His descendants would be in captivity 400 years and then God would deliver them from slavery. from the last book of the o.t. which promises John the baptist and Jesus, ( the messenger of the new covenant malichi 3:1-4 ) there are 400 years of no communication between God and man.
Moses the mediator of the first covenant, was delivered as a child at a time when pharoah declared that all the male children of the hebrews, were to be killed. Jesus the mediator of the eternal covenant, was delivered at a time when herod decreed that all isreal males children under 2 years were to be killed.
Moses though an isrealite, is delivered into an egyptian family where he is kept safe from pharoahs decree. Jesus parents flees to egypt where He is kept safe from herods decree.
we are given little of moses life after the circumstances of His birth until he is called By God, to Go to the isrealites to deliver them from slavery in egypt. we are given little of Jesus life, after the circumstances of His birth until He is sent to deliver the gospel and deliver mankind from slavery to sin.
moses is given a relative of His as a companion in His ministry, Jesus is given john his relative as His companion in hIs ministry.
Moses is given the power to do miracles and signs so that the people will believe He is from God. Jesus is Given the power to do miracles and signs so that the people will believe that He is Gods Son. notice Jesus is given far greater power because He is Gods Son, and the new covenant is far greater than the first.
Notice that moses did many things to the pharoah and nothing caused him to let the people go, until....the passover. The people are finally delivered when God protects them from the plague of the firstborn. for those who dont know, the passover was the isrealites taking a lamb making it a sacrifice to God, feasting on it, and covering the doorways and windows with its blood. This is what protected them from the death of the firstborn that finally freed them.
Now consider what some already Know, that Jesus is the our passover Lamb, we are told to feed on His flesh, and that His blood is what redeems us from slavery to sin. God provided His Lamb in the person of Jesus to deliver the world from sin and its power, and to deliver us from slavery to sin, just as the passover lamb delivered the people from slavery to egypt.


Im simply sharing some things, there are alot more things like this that really bring to Light the 2 covenants and where the division need be, has already been accomplished and framed perfectly that we may trust and fix our minds and Hearts on Gods One and only Son and the true and everlasting Gospel. Moses Gave the first covenant of condemnation, in order to bring us to the new covenant that Gives Life to the condemned. the mistake is for people to mix Jesus and moses. Moses is the crucifixion, Jesus the resurrection. The promises in the Law are nothing compared to what Jesus offers. and the Law cannot acchieve what the gospel will, nor are its laws the same. One led us to the new, we obey God, by obeying the commands and principles of Jesus.