Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

[wanderer6059]

Originally Posted by CeileDe

Well then I refuse to belong to a bigoted hateful site such as this. Remove me from this hypocritical place.

What I can't except is the fact that your willing to go down and out over a concept you're admittedly not well versed in. Stick around there is a lot of good fruit on CC.

i admit it im WoF and just cause people disagree with me i'm not leaving, i have had many amazing conversations here, and learned alot, i never discredit the words said against me and i take every response to the word. this is an amazing site and i hope that over time i can show people that 1 not all WoF people are nuts, and 2 what i stand on ist a legit

 

[Miri]

I think the WOF movement doesn't understand the difference between the
physical and the spiritual.

There are many reasons for ailments sometimes it can be spiritual. I've seen people
set free from demonic based ailments but the WOF movement would take that and use
that in every situation turning it into an immediate doctrine of wellness.

We fight the world, the flesh and the devil. In the world we have sickness, it's part and
parcel of our fallen world. It's part of the law of sin and death. God doesn't go out of His
way to make us deliberately sick (although I know there are very rare teaching examples
in the bible like when Miriam got lepresy - but God also healed her as part of that teaching).

So while God doesn't cause sickness, He does use it to hone us and refine us. What Satan
intended for evil God turns it around to use for good and to spread to gospel and to transform
us.


Funnily enough I was thinking about transformation yesterday.

http://christianchat.com/miscellaneous/144795-butterfly-dream.html




Romans 8:26-28 NKJV
[26] Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what
we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us
with groanings which cannot be uttered. [27] Now He who searches the hearts
knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints
according to the will of God. [28] And we know that all things work together for good
to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.




Sometimes that may mean a person is miraculously healed resulting in many coming to
salvation. (But WOF would try to claim that as evidence of their doctrine).

But what about those who take years to be healed or who are never healed at all.
People assume they are not healed because of lack of faith but healing can be
spiritual and emotional as well as physical. The WOF movement does not take this into account.

The WOF movement makes no allowance for the work of God in a person's life, it
makes no allowance for God's will in a person's life, it makes no allowance for the
simple fact that He is God and we are not!


Matthew 17:17-21 NKJV
[17] Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation,
how long shall I be with you? How long shall I bear with you? Bring him here to
Me." [18] And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him; and the child
was cured from that very hour. [19] Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and
said, "Why could we not cast it out?" [20] So Jesus said to them, "Because of your
unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will
say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing
will be impossible for you. [21] However, this kind does not go out except by
prayer and fasting."




WOF points to the move mountains verses but this was said in the context of
defeating and moving in the spiritual, not the physical. Yes as born again Christians
satan should have no power over us, demons should flee. We are covered by the blood
of the lamb but that is moving mountains in the spiritual. WOF uses these verses to
say we should drive away all sickness and if we don't that means we lack faith.

There are people who do have a healing ministry, WOF would try to say everyone
should be the same. But we are all different parts of the body each with its own gifts.

So on balance don't discount healing and miracles and continue to press in. Thank
God for victories and answered prayer.

But don't let WOF make you feel inadequate if you are not healed, that is not God speaking.
God works in many ways, I honestly think WOF is obsessed with physical healing
to the detriment of emotional and spiritual healing and it causes far more damage
to the parts of the body than the original illness.

Many crowds followed Jesus because they wanted to be fed and watered and healed.
Not because they wanted to know Jesus.
The story of the 10 lepers for example only one returned to say thank you.

The WOF is in danger of attracting people who want an experience with God but who
don't want a relationship with God.

 

[Cee]

Scripture teaches God's name is the one who heals not the one who makes us sick. If God made us sick, why would we go to doctors? Is it any wonder people don't get healed when they are taught God made them sick so they can learn a lesson?

 

[trofimus]

"Word of Faith... teaches that Christians can access the power of faith or fear through speech...
The basic doctrine preached is that of wealth and health..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith

Ok, some of you reacted to the "health" part, I will post something to "wealth" part.

The Bible clearly says that to be rich is not the part of the Gospel or even the Christian goal to achieve:

"Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you.
Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes.
Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days."
James 5:1-3

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 19:23

"Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction."
1Tm 6:9

"Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God."
Luke 6:20

 

[trofimus]

Is it any wonder people don't get healed when they are taught God made them sick so they can learn a lesson?

No, this is not any wonder.

Do you now what is the wonder?

That people who are taught God wants them healthy, even people preaching such things, masters in these doctrines, do not get healed and die by various diseases because of their strong faith and the lack of medical treatment.

This is the wonder.

 

[Grace777x70]

I could post lot's of scriptures that show beyond a shadow of doubt in my mind that our loving Father wants us well but I am not going to do it because it may be a violation of the admin opinions and that is their right to have that as we are using their site and we thank God for it.

There have been many abuses in the past and many people hurt for various reasons over this subject. I'll leave that with the Lord.

I am just going to state my belief in God's word as revealed through our Lord Jesus Christ and not debate things because of the emotional involvement with some of us and it never leads to anything good and edifiying.

People are allowed to belief what they want - that is between them and the Lord. Don't let anyone "lord it over your faith" - that is a manifestation of a controlling religious spirit and it is not from God - but check everything out with the Holy Spirit within you by the witness of the Holy Spirit and scriptures.

We can change the meaning of scriptures by making them "metaphorical". We are allowed to have our opinion on subjects that are different from others. Luther had a different opinion on a subject and he was persecuted for it by the orthodox church at the time.

Jesus never once refused to heal those that came to Him. NOT one single person.

I have never seen Jesus saying to anyone that came for healing - " I cannot heal you because God is trying to teach you something and you need to suffer for Him."

I have never seen Jesus saying to anyone coming for healing - " I cannot heal you until you forgive your mother-in-law.":

I have never seen Jesus say to anyone - "No, I cannot heal you because you have all this sin in your life".

I have never seen Jesus say to anyone - "No, I cannot heal you because you have not been eating right - ( funny thing is that they were all on the Mediterranean Diet..lol )

I have heard Jesus say to some that came to Him - " If you can believe - all things are possible."

Jesus is perfect theology:

Jesus is the exact representation of the nature of the Father. Jesus said no one knows my Father.

Jesus came to reveal the Father and His true nature to us as truth in the OT was progressive and in pictures and in shadows, but it ends with the revelation of Jesus Christ and what He has already done in His finished work.

So, whatever understanding of God we get from the Old Covenant that doesn't line up with Jesus' manifestation of the Father will be inaccurate.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways
,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

[SUP]3[/SUP] AndHe is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

If we want to see what the Father's will is concerning a subject - see what Jesus did while He was on this earth.

If we want to see how the Father views sinners - look to see how Jesus interacted with them. ( both the prostitutes and the religious Pharisees )

If we want to see if it's God's will to heal people in their physical bodies - look to Jesus while He was here on this earth.

If we want to see what the Father's discipline looks like - watch Jesus discipline the disciples - He did it with His words.

Jesus and the Father are One in their nature, purpose and love.

 

[PeterJens]

Well then I refuse to belong to a bigoted hateful site such as this. Remove me from this hypocritical place.

When in a christian community truth, that someone is ill and needs help, is ignored because of
a faith position, then loving individuals who hold love and the welfare of others above anything
else will be deeply troubled.

Latter reign theology was declared heretical back in the 70's so why it would now be taken
so seriously with such grevious damage to fellowships and peoples lives is beyond me.

Maybe it is simply money talks.

 

[PeterJens]

I could post lot's of scriptures that show beyond a shadow of doubt in my mind that our loving Father wants us well

The above statement is true, God wants His people whole, in eternity.

The mortal world though is just a veil on what is to come. Our state here
is more about demonstrating eternal love no matter the circumstance than
always being healthy and wealthy without any challenges.

And when push comes to shove, love is not the highest goal in WOF, so
they fail in their testimony. If they fail at this simple demonstration of
a transformed life, then how much more error is there in everything else?

If you want to see the extreme of error and miss-understanding see G7 the above post.

God only rebukes with words????????? Have they read scripture, at all !!!!!!!!!

If we want to see what the Father's discipline looks like - watch Jesus discipline the disciples - He did it with His words.

 

[LaurenTM]

Another basic reason why healing is not included in the atonement is simple. Christ died to atone for our sins. We are saved when we believe this. We are never accused in the Bible of not having enough faith or doubting our salvation, if we believe Christ died on the cross for our sins.

But neither healing, nor prosperity is included in the atonement, or it would indeed have to be perfect healing, and every Christian a rich person, from the time they are saved. I think there are enough testimonies on the other thread, including my own concerning how people are not always healed, and how God uses that for good.


So again – we are saved when we believe in the atonement. I would hope that this is generally agreed upon, no matter what their denominational background.

BUT, we are not automatically healed, nor do we automatically become rich when we believe in the atonement. The atonement is about sin, not healing or riches.

you know, I once made the distinction in church from the platform...just before singing from Isaiah 53, that Jesus healed BEFORE He was crucified but He had to DIE for our sins

that made the senior pastor really mad, cause I did not know he was a WOF person...the church was actually a English/French congregation and I was on the much smaller and English side...with the pastor who's wife died of refusing treatment for cancer...

so...anyway...everything is closed up now...everything totally failed...the school...the church...his daughter got pregant with her ex-con boyfriend and had to get married (after she told me she was sorry for me because at that time my ex did not come to church with me) and his son went a little koo koo and would rant and rave at the exploitation of infants being used sexually...it was disgusting...I walked out of church for that performance and his dad was angry at him that time...what a bunch!!

now the pastor who's wife died has his own church...as I said in the other thread...remarried...they are doing fine while the extreme pastor who got angry at having to acknowledge that Jesus died for our sins, folded up and lost everything

this same man, also got a hold of a book that stated the date and time of Jesus second coming and had his French congregation convinced it was going to happen to the point people had their pets put down so as not leave them without food etc

yeah...and of course everyone just returned quietly to their seats as if nothing had ever happened

I could rack up thing after thing after thing about my experiences in church...been in a lot of them and had plenty of experience and been serving God since I am 15...but of course, I have no faith...so I have been told...

 

[LaurenTM]

Never said I wasn't well versed in it. I won't belong to anything that purposely attacks others because they don't line up with their own opinions.

I know he has left...but this is the opposite of what he said in the other thread

this movement just seems to bring out the flesh screaming in opposition to the fact that we are not actually in control after all

 

[LaurenTM]

If they said it was the admin's view that the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation were Daffy Duck and Donald Duck - you would have to abide by not saying anything against this view if you wanted to stay on here.

that is UTTER malarkey!

they put up with YOU and a few others fighting over the same thing for literally months! and they did NOT necessairly agree with your position

you never stopped...you had to give for everything you think you got and then when the mods finally stepped in, you stopped...

you do not seem able to let go of anything but have to constantly defend what you say you believe

oh for sure most of us posted in some of those threads...but the more I read of your posts now, the more it seems I was thinking one thing about God's grace and you were actually saying something different

I find this post of yours really off base and nasty...you are sniping at the mods

 

[LaurenTM]

Scripture teaches God's name is the one who heals not the one who makes us sick. If God made us sick, why would we go to doctors? Is it any wonder people don't get healed when they are taught God made them sick so they can learn a lesson?

no one is saying that...no one is saying God makes us sick

that may very well be what you think you see because of a pre-existing prejudice, but that is not what is being said

not at all

people are forever claiming healing...and you know...why don't all the healers go into hospitals ...I would love to see cancer stricken children cured and allowed to go home to grief stricken parents

what? no one can heal in there cause there is not enough faith?

well by gum...just ask for more! God is the one who provides the faith after all

if you people could just hear yourselves!

go and do what you say you believe in!

and for the record, I am not angry at people here...because not for a minute do I think most of you are unsaved or do not love God

but I HATE the deception and the pain it causes!

and for the record? I think there are a few who just copy/paste and sound a certain way, but it is not really in their heart

 

[Grandpa]

We truly cannot look down on God from above Him and say "God is good and I think this is good so God has to do it".

God looks down on us. God Knows what is good. Everything He does is good. Whether we think so or not.

You can try to say God doesn't want this and God doesn't want that but we don't always know His Perfect Will.


Isaiah 53:5 [FONT=&quot]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

John 6:63 [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Corinthians 15:54-57
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT]

 

[nowyouseem033]

Scripture teaches God's name is the one who heals not the one who makes us sick. If God made us sick, why would we go to doctors? Is it any wonder people don't get healed when they are taught God made them sick so they can learn a lesson?

God heals, YES but also sends sickness. The same God that blesses nations is the same God that curses them. He brings up rulers and he humbles them.

 

[posthuman]

We truly cannot look down on God from above Him and say "God is good and I think this is good so God has to do it".

God looks down on us. God Knows what is good. Everything He does is good. Whether we think so or not.

You can try to say God doesn't want this and God doesn't want that but we don't always know His Perfect Will.


Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Corinthians 15:54-57
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

amen; we pray,
"Lord open our eyes to see the good you work by all these things!"

 

[wanderer6059]

God heals, YES but also sends sickness. The same God that blesses nations is the same God that curses them. He brings up rulers and he humbles them.

where does it say in scripture that God send sickness....

 

[nowyouseem033]

My biggest hatred is the prosperity gospel!!! The same gospel that WoF movement advocate for. It is a distortion of the true gospel and seeks to accommodate and attract people to it through other means. People must stand against this heresy creeping into churches all over the world. And the leaders are a bunch of clowns.

 

[notuptome]

where does it say in scripture that God send sickness....

Ask Job if it matters. God allows it for His glory.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

Never said I wasn't well versed in it. I won't belong to anything that purposely attacks others because they don't line up with their own opinions.

i'm sorry CeileDe may never read this, ((late to the party))
but Jesus did not declare Himself "the opinion, the way and the life" -- and the scripture is full of admonishment to hold sound doctrine and reject, refute and even to abhor false doctrine.

this isn't about opinion; it's about truth - it's not a rejection of others, but a rejection of lies.
anyone can love any sinner and hate sin, which is God's will for us, should be able to see this for what it is.

 

[jenniferand2]

Never said I wasn't well versed in it. I won't belong to anything that purposely attacks others because they don't line up with their own opinions.

yes good Christians are supposed to respect others and spew hate when it comes to other religions and beliefs. Good Christians are however supposed to try guide the mislead back into the place of Gods word and what Gods wants from us not what other people or religions say they think is okay.... i do not think it is hateful to make an opinion on other religions as long as it is done in a non demeaning manor