Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

Whassup · Nov 29, 2016

Jesus never tells anyone to go to the doctor... saying "Luke sends his greetings" is simply saying hi and is not telling anyone to trust in medical science before trusting in the Lord.

Nourishment, or in this case a mouthful of wine to help kill bacteria from eating bad food and drinking bad water.... if not the Lord telling anyone to trust in medical science before trusting in the Lord.

Try again... WHERE does God's Word specifically give us a call to action to go to the doctor and trust what man can do before trusting the Lord, not just in health but in any area of life???

wanderer6059 · Nov 29, 2016

see this is one thing in WoF that gets me a little heated is the complete disregard of the natural. its not using "faith" to clam protection then walk in traffic, its not using "faith" to clam health then eat like crap and never work out, its not using "faith" to clam needs met while maxing out CC's on material things. i swear i am glad i wasn't there but at a meeting a speaker had a heart attack and instead of PREFORMING CPR AND BASIC LIFE SAVING SKILLS people watched and tried laying hands on the person while they died... iv i was there i would have thrown some chairs, and probably slapped someone if they tried to do that to a patient. that right there is what is wrong with WoF and its not from false doctrine but stupid people...

wanderer6059 · Nov 29, 2016

Whassup said:

i'll post this again for you....
Mark 2:17 “And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

and that was medical medical of the day, that Paul most likely got when he asked LUKE the DOCTOR sitting next to him "hey Tims having stomach problems, whats a good remedy"

and you Where does it say not to go to a doctor, Jesus mentioned that people need doctors... show me where it says its forbidden, sow me where it is even discouraged to not seek medical help in a time of need.

[FONT=&quot]33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

btw thats basic first add to prevent infection, mentioned by Christ....[/FONT]

oldethennew · Nov 29, 2016

ROm. 8:17.
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

1COR. 9:12.
If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power;
but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

10:13.
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer
you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape,
that ye may be able to bear it.

11COR. 1:6.
And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring
of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted,
it is for your consolation and salvation.

PHI. 1:29.
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

11TIM. 2:12.
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

HEB. 13:3.
Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity,
as being yourselves also in the body.

1PETER 4:16.
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Grace777x70 · Nov 29, 2016

HisHolly said:

I like it when he sings spontaneous songs of the spirit . They are always edifying.

HisHolly · Nov 29, 2016

Im sure he did. What a place you're in, fortunate I think. Enjoy all that, soak it up... His series are off the charts. I've watched some good ones and have gained big time

wanderer6059 said:

HisHolly · Nov 29, 2016

I agree! God has grown me thru him. I'm grateful

Grace777x70 said:

bluto · Nov 29, 2016

What you said wanderer is "SICKENING." This is the real "wof" coming out of you. When you first came here you started a thread that said, "I'm part of a wof church and I'm here to answer questions and confirm wof teaching to clear up misconceptions." (I'm parapharasing you).

Then after extensive discussions on wof not only on your thread but on this one that sister angela started your true colors come out. You really got some "huevos" to tell somebody that has epilepsy that they do not have enough faith to be healed. Quoting you, "right there is a fault in your belief." This "DOES NOT" surprise me because I've heard it thousands of times over the years, excuse number two.

So wanderer, since your such a "wof spiritual giant" why are you not clearing out the hospitals? And what about all the millions of babies, children, teenagers and adults that are born with problems and are not healed and some of them are Christians? And then in your post you tell billyd the devil is holding him back? How sick is that kind of thinking?

And btw, there is no cure for epilepsy unless God gives you a miracle, it can only be controlled by medication. And yes, one of these days he will be completely healed when Jesus Chirst comes back or like I said God heals him completely before His return. Remember wanderer, your in the big leagues now and not messing around with little kids that some of us don't know what were talking about.

Here is a question for you? Does it take the same amount of faith to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation than it does to get physically healed by Jesus Christ?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

wanderer6059 · Nov 29, 2016

HisHolly said:

Thank you! i am its amazing, i just wish i could convey to people and places like this site that WoF is not as extreme as they think it is, and there is a lot of people who have gotten the wrong idea about a lot of good teachers of the word.

bluto · Nov 29, 2016

wanderer6059 said:

You mean wanderer like dad hagin said here in his book, “In the name of Jesus” on the topic of divine healing and health. “I have so often said, I haven’t had a headache in so many years (45 to be exact) ... Just a few months ago, as I left the office building and started home, suddenly my head started hurting, someone might say, “well, you had a headache. No, I didn’t have one! I don’t have headaches. I haven’t had a headache since August 1934. 45 years have come and gone. And I haven’t had a headache…but if I had a headache, I wouldn’t tell anybody. And if somebody asked me how I was feeling, I would say, I’m fine, thank you.” (In the Name of Jesus, p.44)"

Where am I taking his own words out of context wanderer? hagin is outright denying his symptoms of having a headache. In short, he is not living in reality.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

wanderer6059 · Nov 29, 2016

bluto said:

pistis: faith, faithfulness

Original Word: πίστις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: pistis
Phonetic Spelling: (pis'-tis)
Short Definition: faith, belief, trust
Definition: faith, belief, trust, confidence; fidelity, faithfulness.

ok ill big leage you brother

faith and belief are the same, if you don't believe in something, you don't have faith in it. or if you have a wrong belief it will hinder a true one.

so 1 lets prove that your faith can be measured.

[FONT=&quot]8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God. 3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you. 4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and not all members have the same function,…

so right there is an example that faith, is given by God, can be measured, and must be released.

and the last part of Romans there explains why i'm not out there healing people... i do not have the gift of healing, i have the authority over my own health through faith but not others.

and brother it takes the same faith to receive anything from God, it is measured as greater or less buy what you believe He says. [/FONT]

wanderer6059 · Nov 29, 2016

bluto said:

funny you are quoting the wrong book, but hey ill help you, further on he talks about his confession of symptoms to God alone. and if you look in his other books you will se he advocates going to the doctors.

http://www.ekklesia.lt/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Kenneth-E-Hagin-The-Name-of-Jesus.pdf

heres the book on line, check pg.44 yourself...

oldethennew · Nov 29, 2016

.
1PETER 4:16.
Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

bluto · Nov 29, 2016

wanderer6059 said:

Ok wanderer,what about the following:

"Kenneth Hagin states: It is not God's will for any to be sick (Healing the fathers Provision, p.9 ) I believe that it is the plan of our father that no believer should be sick that every believer should live his life to full time and actually wear out if Jesus tarries then fall asleep in Jesus. I state boldly that it is not the will of God my father that we should suffer with cancer and other dread disease and reap pain and anguish. No its God's will that we should be healed.”
While Hagin says he has had no headaches, he had 4 major cardiovascular failures. But this is one of those incidents he's not telling you (Christianity in Crises, pp.237-238; a Different Gospel by D.L McConnell) Hagin suffered 4 separate episodes of heart-crisis in 1939, 1942, 1949, and 1973.
Hagin claims he was healed of numerous sicknesses a “deformed heart,” “paralysis,” and “incurable blood disease.” He also declared his “healing from the top of my head to the soles of my feet” on August 7, 1934, so that “every symptom of distress, deficiency and physical wrongness was driven out of my body,” perpetually. “I'm still healed after 49 years,” Hagin said. (Kenneth E. Hagin, Exceedingly Growing Faith, 2d rev. ed. [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1990, 48-49, 82-83.) His healing occurred on Tuesday of the “second week” of August 1934, or August 7, which was not the same date as the “second Tuesday” that month [August 14). Elsewhere Hagin gives various dates, such as “6 days before my 17th birthday [August 20, 1934,” which would be August 14, the “second Tuesday of August 1934”: (Kenneth E. Hagin, El Shaddai [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 19801, 24-25.) But see Kenneth E. Hagin, How You Can Be Led by the Spirit of God (Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1978), 87 (healing on a “Thursday” in August 1934). In still another place Hagin claims his healing was on “August 8, 1934,” which was a Wednesday (Kenneth E. Hagin, Zoe: The God-Kind of Life [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1981], 13.) Maybe Hagin needs his memory healed as well. (adopted from Christianity in Crises)
Kenneth Hagin died Sept. 23.2003 After eating breakfast his head fell to his chest. Charisma News Service reported that “An exact cause of death was not immediately known” Hagin had been hospitalized in a cardiac intensive care unit since Sept. 14, when he collapsed at home. (Charisma News Service September 23, 2003 edition People & Lifestyle) We later find out that was transported by an ambulance admitted to the cardiac intensive care unit and remained in the hospital until he died. This become an interesting point of contention because Hagin claimed he was healed of his heart problem supernaturally years before. He also held to the belief that one should actually wear out, not die this way.
Kenneth Hagin states: It is not God's will for any to be sick (Healing the fathers Provision, p.9 ) I believe that it is the plan of our father that no believer should be sick that every believer should live his life to full time and actually wear out if Jesus tarries then fall asleep in Jesus. I state boldly that it is not the will of God my father that we should suffer with cancer and other dread disease and reap pain and anguish. No its God's will that we should be healed.”
While Hagin says he has had no headaches, he had 4 major cardiovascular failures. But this is one of those incidents he's not telling you (Christianity in Crises, pp.237-238; a Different Gospel by D.L McConnell) Hagin suffered 4 separate episodes of heart-crisis in 1939, 1942, 1949, and 1973.
Hagin claims he was healed of numerous sicknesses a “deformed heart,” “paralysis,” and “incurable blood disease.” He also declared his “healing from the top of my head to the soles of my feet” on August 7, 1934, so that “every symptom of distress, deficiency and physical wrongness was driven out of my body,” perpetually. “I'm still healed after 49 years,” Hagin said. (Kenneth E. Hagin, Exceedingly Growing Faith, 2d rev. ed. [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1990, 48-49, 82-83.) His healing occurred on Tuesday of the “second week” of August 1934, or August 7, which was not the same date as the “second Tuesday” that month [August 14). Elsewhere Hagin gives various dates, such as “6 days before my 17th birthday [August 20, 1934,” which would be August 14, the “second Tuesday of August 1934”: (Kenneth E. Hagin, El Shaddai [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 19801, 24-25.) But see Kenneth E. Hagin, How You Can Be Led by the Spirit of God (Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1978), 87 (healing on a “Thursday” in August 1934). In still another place Hagin claims his healing was on “August 8, 1934,” which was a Wednesday (Kenneth E. Hagin, Zoe: The God-Kind of Life [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1981], 13.) Maybe Hagin needs his memory healed as well. (adopted from Christianity in Crises)
Kenneth Hagin died Sept. 23.2003 After eating breakfast his head fell to his chest. Charisma News Service reported that “An exact cause of death was not immediately known” Hagin had been hospitalized in a cardiac intensive care unit since Sept. 14, when he collapsed at home. (Charisma News Service September 23, 2003 edition People & Lifestyle) We later find out that was transported by an ambulance admitted to the cardiac intensive care unit and remained in the hospital until he died. This become an interesting point of contention because Hagin claimed he was healed of his heart problem supernaturally years before. He also held to the belief that one should actually wear out, not die this way."

I could go all day long quoting these heretical teachers using their own words/lies against them.

IN GOD THE SON ,
bluto

wanderer6059 · Nov 29, 2016

oldethennew said:

paschó: to suffer, to be acted on

Original Word: πάσχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: paschó
Phonetic Spelling: (pas'-kho)
Short Definition: I am acted upon, suffer
Definition: I am acted upon in a certain way, either good or bad; I experience ill treatment, suffer.HELPS Word-studies
3958 pásxō (a primitive verb) – properly, to feel heavy emotion, especially suffering; affected, experiencing feeling (literally "sensible" = "sensed-experience"); "the feeling of the mind, emotion, passion" (J. Thayer).
3958/pásxō ("to experience feeling") relates to any part of us that feels strong emotion, passion, or suffering – especially "the capacity to feel suffering" (J. Thayer). The Lord has privileged us to have great capacity for feeling (passion, emotion, affections). Indeed, this is inherent because all people are created in the divine image. Note for example how Jesus in His perfect (sinless) humanity keenly felt (3958/pásxō, see Lk 17:25, 22:15, 24:26,46, etc.).
[3958/pásxō ("experiencing strong feeling") is the root of: 3804 /páthēma ("passions, sufferings"), 3805 /pathētós ("suffering") and 3806 /páthos ("strong feeling, passion").]

Text Analysis
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μὴ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1063 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]gar[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]γάρ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]indeed[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5100 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tis[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τις[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]anyone[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]IPro-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hymōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑμῶν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]of you[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-G2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3958 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]paschetō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πασχέτω[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]let suffer[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PMA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5613 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὡς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]as[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5406 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]phoneus[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]φονεὺς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]a murderer,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2228 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἢ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]or[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2812 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kleptēs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κλέπτης[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]a thief,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2228 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἢ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]or[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2555 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]kakopoios[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κακοποιὸς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]an evildoer,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2228 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἢ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]or[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5613 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὡς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]as[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]244 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]allotriepiskopos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀλλοτριεπίσκοπος·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]a troublesome meddler;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Text Analysis
[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%, bgcolor: #0099FF"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1487 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ei[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]εἰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]if[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δὲ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]however[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5613 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hōs[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὡς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]as[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5546 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Christianos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Χριστιανός,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]a Christian,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3361 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]mē[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]μὴ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]153 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]aischynesthō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]αἰσχυνέσθω,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]let him be ashamed;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PMM/P-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1392 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]doxazetō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δοξαζέτω[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]let him glorify[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PMA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δὲ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]however[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ton[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]-[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2316 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Theon[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Θεὸν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]God[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1722 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]en[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐν[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]in[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Prep[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3588 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]tō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τῷ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]the[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Art-DNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3686 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]onomati[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὀνόματι[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]name[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3778 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]toutō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]τούτῳ.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]this.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]DPro-DNS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
ill just post stuff to and not explain it.

Billyd · Nov 29, 2016

LanceA said:

I described true deliverance for you. I recommend that you study the entire Gospel, not just bits and pieces. Begin by studying the lives of the apostles.

Aside: I have probably spent a lot more time on my knees in prayer, and in fasting than you have spent in the word of God.

wanderer6059 · Nov 29, 2016

bluto said:

Ok wanderer,what about the following:

"Kenneth Hagin states: It is not God's will for any to be sick (Healing the fathers Provision, p.9 ) I believe that it is the plan of our father that no believer should be sick that every believer should live his life to full time and actually wear out if Jesus tarries then fall asleep in Jesus. I state boldly that it is not the will of God my father that we should suffer with cancer and other dread disease and reap pain and anguish. No its God's will that we should be healed.”
While Hagin says he has had no headaches, he had 4 major cardiovascular failures. But this is one of those incidents he's not telling you (Christianity in Crises, pp.237-238; a Different Gospel by D.L McConnell) Hagin suffered 4 separate episodes of heart-crisis in 1939, 1942, 1949, and 1973.
Hagin claims he was healed of numerous sicknesses a “deformed heart,” “paralysis,” and “incurable blood disease.” He also declared his “healing from the top of my head to the soles of my feet” on August 7, 1934, so that “every symptom of distress, deficiency and physical wrongness was driven out of my body,” perpetually. “I'm still healed after 49 years,” Hagin said. (Kenneth E. Hagin, Exceedingly Growing Faith, 2d rev. ed. [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1990, 48-49, 82-83.) His healing occurred on Tuesday of the “second week” of August 1934, or August 7, which was not the same date as the “second Tuesday” that month [August 14). Elsewhere Hagin gives various dates, such as “6 days before my 17th birthday [August 20, 1934,” which would be August 14, the “second Tuesday of August 1934”: (Kenneth E. Hagin, El Shaddai [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 19801, 24-25.) But see Kenneth E. Hagin, How You Can Be Led by the Spirit of God (Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1978), 87 (healing on a “Thursday” in August 1934). In still another place Hagin claims his healing was on “August 8, 1934,” which was a Wednesday (Kenneth E. Hagin, Zoe: The God-Kind of Life [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1981], 13.) Maybe Hagin needs his memory healed as well. (adopted from Christianity in Crises)
Kenneth Hagin died Sept. 23.2003 After eating breakfast his head fell to his chest. Charisma News Service reported that “An exact cause of death was not immediately known” Hagin had been hospitalized in a cardiac intensive care unit since Sept. 14, when he collapsed at home. (Charisma News Service September 23, 2003 edition People & Lifestyle) We later find out that was transported by an ambulance admitted to the cardiac intensive care unit and remained in the hospital until he died. This become an interesting point of contention because Hagin claimed he was healed of his heart problem supernaturally years before. He also held to the belief that one should actually wear out, not die this way.
Kenneth Hagin states: It is not God's will for any to be sick (Healing the fathers Provision, p.9 ) I believe that it is the plan of our father that no believer should be sick that every believer should live his life to full time and actually wear out if Jesus tarries then fall asleep in Jesus. I state boldly that it is not the will of God my father that we should suffer with cancer and other dread disease and reap pain and anguish. No its God's will that we should be healed.”
While Hagin says he has had no headaches, he had 4 major cardiovascular failures. But this is one of those incidents he's not telling you (Christianity in Crises, pp.237-238; a Different Gospel by D.L McConnell) Hagin suffered 4 separate episodes of heart-crisis in 1939, 1942, 1949, and 1973.
Hagin claims he was healed of numerous sicknesses a “deformed heart,” “paralysis,” and “incurable blood disease.” He also declared his “healing from the top of my head to the soles of my feet” on August 7, 1934, so that “every symptom of distress, deficiency and physical wrongness was driven out of my body,” perpetually. “I'm still healed after 49 years,” Hagin said. (Kenneth E. Hagin, Exceedingly Growing Faith, 2d rev. ed. [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1990, 48-49, 82-83.) His healing occurred on Tuesday of the “second week” of August 1934, or August 7, which was not the same date as the “second Tuesday” that month [August 14). Elsewhere Hagin gives various dates, such as “6 days before my 17th birthday [August 20, 1934,” which would be August 14, the “second Tuesday of August 1934”: (Kenneth E. Hagin, El Shaddai [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 19801, 24-25.) But see Kenneth E. Hagin, How You Can Be Led by the Spirit of God (Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1978), 87 (healing on a “Thursday” in August 1934). In still another place Hagin claims his healing was on “August 8, 1934,” which was a Wednesday (Kenneth E. Hagin, Zoe: The God-Kind of Life [Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin Ministries, 1981], 13.) Maybe Hagin needs his memory healed as well. (adopted from Christianity in Crises)
Kenneth Hagin died Sept. 23.2003 After eating breakfast his head fell to his chest. Charisma News Service reported that “An exact cause of death was not immediately known” Hagin had been hospitalized in a cardiac intensive care unit since Sept. 14, when he collapsed at home. (Charisma News Service September 23, 2003 edition People & Lifestyle) We later find out that was transported by an ambulance admitted to the cardiac intensive care unit and remained in the hospital until he died. This become an interesting point of contention because Hagin claimed he was healed of his heart problem supernaturally years before. He also held to the belief that one should actually wear out, not die this way."

I could go all day long quoting these heretical teachers using their own words/lies against them.

IN GOD THE SON ,
bluto

i know all about that brother your a bit off with that story thats not how he past tho. i even know they worked his heart for longer that most MFR's but the myocardial infarction that he suffered was not connected to his childhood Hypoplastic condition or his hematologic disorder that were cured, by the face that he walked out of a hospital at 17 and didn't die. if you read any of his other writing you would know that. he like many others "worn out" and i'll tell you this like his son pastor Hagin, they are horrible with dates takes an extra 5 mins for him to remember it, but no bodys perfect.

CharlieGrown · Nov 29, 2016

wanderer6059 said:

i know all about that brother your a bit off with that story thats not how he past tho. i even know they worked his heart for longer that most MFR's but the myocardial infarction that he suffered was not connected to his childhood Hypoplastic condition or his hematologic disorder that were cured, by the face that he walked out of a hospital at 17 and didn't die. if you read any of his other writing you would know that. he like many others "worn out" and i'll tell you this like his son pastor Hagin, they are horrible with dates takes an extra 5 mins for him to remember it, but no bodys perfect.

Can you give some examples of how WoF has benefited/enhanced/impacted/salvaged your life?

Angela53510 · Nov 29, 2016

Whassup said:

I just want to deal with this last item in your list. Which has to be one of the most absurd rationalizations I have ever read! I wonder what the martyrs in the Middle East would think of this totally self centred gospel, you WoF people teach?

I would just love to transport you there, set you down in one of the ISIS held cities in Syria or Iraq, and watch you scrambled.

Because this verse is about persecution??? Or don't you get that? In your little fake bubble of WoF lies, wrapped up so you are out of touch with reality?

But, I digress.

Here is the verse, with some actual context.

"Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.37 They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated—38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised,40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect." Hebrews 11:35-40.

Oh! So they sacrificed themselves for others and for their faith! And THEY WERE ALL COMMENDED FOR THEIR FAITH! It seems to me, that these people had a lot more faith than the typical WoFer sitting in his pews, demanding that God answer their prayers! In fact - they did this not for themselves - but for others!!

"God had planned something better for us so that only TOGETHER WITH US, would they may be made perfect." ( v. 40) That's hard sanctification, but what a blessing for us, that their sacrifice helped us! They didn't lose their supposed "long" life in vain, but rather GOD planned something better for us!

Yet, despite the clear words of Scripture, you say, "This is not God's best!" And I quote from above! Wow! My Bible clearly says "GOD PLANNED SOMETHING BETTER!" Where on earth do you get this garbage from? From your WoF false teachers? Or did you just make it up yourself? Probably not, as you don't seem to have the writing skills to punch your way out of a grade 6 comprehension and writing test.

So, one more time - What does the BIBLE say about Hebrews 11:35? It says, that people were tortured, faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two, they were killed by the sword. And so on....

And what does God say?

"They were COMMENDED for their faith!" Real faith - in God - not in this WoF lies and false teachings. Faith in GOD! And was this not God's plan? Were their lives unnaturally cut short??

No, "God had planned something better for us, so that only together with us would they be made perfect." 11:40

Also remember, whoever wrote Hebrews did not put the chapter and verses in. The very next 2 verses after 11:40 say the following;

"12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." Hebrews 12:1-2.

Wow- are we supposed to crow about our good health and money, are we supposed to:

FIX OUR EYES ON JESUS!!

I just keep missing that deep abiding relationship with Christ in this whole Word Faith heresy. Because, nothing else really matters in this world - not life, not death, not health or sickness or persecution or tribulation or distress!

ONLY JESUS MATTERS!! Knowing and obeying him.

Oh yes, you might even read on to Paul's next thoughts in Hebrews 12 -

"Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." Hebrews 12:7-11

Wow - maybe your problem is that you are not experiencing discipline, so that you are not a legitimate child of God. Think seriously about that one, in your quest to prove your perfect health and life. Because if you think you have arrived, this passage alone tells that you have missed the Kingdom of God. And that means you are not saved! I hope that is not the case! I know I was upside down when God used Rheumatoid Arthritis to discipline me! But how grateful I am, that rather than perfect health, I have a perfect God who loved me enough to shake me to the bottom of my toes, and get me taking up my cross and following Jesus!

Just a final thought about the metaphor, as much as some of you refuse to see the incredible poetry and use of figures of speech in both the OT and NT.

So if you are going to get that long life, in Psalm 91:16, when did you fight off thousand at your side and ten thousand at your right hand? When did you escape from the lion and cobra? Or the pestilence or plague? Not too many of those in North American since I was born long ago!! So when did you go through a plague or something massive like that, and get through the other side, without doctors (like in ancient Israel) and live to crow about long life. You need to have the suffering to get the long life, is what Psalm 91 is saying! BUT, it is also saying:

"I will say to the Lord, “My refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust.”" Psalm 91:2

When I came out the other side of RA, I truly had learned to trust God - God is my refuge and my fortress, my God in whom I trust. I hope you can say that, too!

If you want to claim a single verse in a Psalm, which were basically songs - songs of encouragement, but songs, none the less, feel free to make sure it is talking about you, and when you can prove that you have been able to fight off eleven thousand, while avoiding lions and cobras, then I will let you claim this verse.

"With long life I will satisfy him
and show him my salvation.” Psalm 91:16

Oops, now the anti-metaphor people will say that is "my opinion!" Why, because I read something in context? Like Hebrews 11:35, too??

What a disgusting misuse of Scripture. And yes, sometimes, dying is the hardest choice of all - are you afraid of dying, Wassup? I think I am detecting a theme in your writing. Because, you know, Jesus died to save you. But you will have to believe in HIM, not your false prophets, and, repent of your sins, take up your cross and follow him!

In fact, Jesus is pretty clear that if you lose your life you will save it. That hanging onto life, isn't the way Jesus wants us to go!

"And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it." Luke 9:23-24

How much taking up your cross and denying yourself have you done lately??

My hope and prayer is that people like you will actually pick up their Bibles, get off the internet and read the Bible. This is God's revealed Word. All of it. And note just verses picked out of their spot, their context, and then twisted to make up this very dangerous heresy of name it and claim it, we are little gods, and can therefore speak things into existence.

God knows you all - time to lay down this lie, and take up your cross instead, and follow Jesus!

Angela53510 · Nov 29, 2016

Whassup said:

Hmm! I just saw this nonsense again!

When I was referring to the fact that all the Word of Faith people had basically only one Scripture - Isa. 53 coupled with 1 Peter 2, I was saying:

There simply are no scriptures to support healing is in the atonement. One Scripture, repeated over and over, is not a doctrine, but parroting by people who do not look at the verses in context.

Salvation is a topic in the Bible you could post literally hundreds of verses to support it is part of the atonement.

The Bible has NO verses to support healing is in the atonement. Except the one out of context verse in Isa. 53. One verse, does not a doctrine make, even if it did imply the atonement took care of all healing, which it does not.

Get it? Not that the people have such a paucity of verses, that the only one posted in the early pages was Isa. 53. It is still one Scripture.

Feel free to read the OP again. I think I reposted the part about Isa. 53 somewhere else in this thread.

Wait, for those who are challenged, I will do it again.

"It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.

"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6

While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.

Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)

"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek

"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV

The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV

This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:

"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."

"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)

The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"

Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)

Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!

"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.

So my point!

Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.

But what did Isaiah himself intend??

The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.

The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.

As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.

Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified."

Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

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