What’s involved in doing God’s will unto salvation?

PeterJens · Dec 5, 2016

The interesting thing I find with Paul he is standing between the world of grace
and the world of the law.

If we walk in grace, we walk in the law, because love fulfills the law.
But we do not overthrow the law, and the law does not judge us because we
have fulfilled it.

Now Paul is talking very much the moral law of righteousness, and the passing
away of ceremonial obligations. So gentiles do not need to be jews and jews
do not need to become gentiles etc.

What I do not understand is why I am regarded as a works salvationist. Paul is
obviously saying we need to walk in Gods ways, as a pure holy people.

Now the contrast to rebellion against God is very stark.

This starkness is not what I have been told by various contributors, emphasising their
failure to meet the mark in various undisclosed degrees.

Paul is supporting very much victory through Christ rather than defeat, freedom from
slavery to sin, to walk as Jesus walked.

VCO · Dec 5, 2016

PeterJens said:

May I try to make this more understandable to you. Works Righteousness or as you put it Works Salvationist, is a term used when people think their works are earning part or all of their Salvation. They fail to recognize Salvation happens the moment we repent, and truly BELIEVE in the the Lord Jesus Christ, receiving Him as LORD, which literally means MASTER. Because we were saved, we LOVE HIM and that is only possible because that moment we Believed, GOD had the Holy Spirit pour HIS LOVE into our hearts (Rom. 5:5). Love for God and/or Jesus Christ manifests itself in many ways (Mat. 25:31-40), but the PRIMARY way is it produces our willingness to OBEDIENCE. The difference between those who are a slave to the Law and we who were SAVED BY GRACE, is we OBEY because we LOVE HIM, while they erroneously think that HAVE TO KEEP the LAW to get saved.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

1 John 4:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love because He first loved us.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

John 14:21 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The one who has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me. And the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father. I also will love him and will reveal Myself to him.”

1 John 5:1-3 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Messiah has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves the one born of Him.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] This is how we know that we love God’s children when we love God and obey His commands.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is what love for God is: to keep His commands. Now His commands are not a burden,

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Romans 6:22-23 (ESV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. {Sanctification is a life long process of conforming our flesh to be more and more like Christ, therefore this eternal life reference is talking about Eternal Life for the body too, because we already have eternal life in our human spirit.}

[SUP]23 [/SUP] For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

IT IS NOT A free gift, IF YOU HAVE WORK TO GET IT OR TO KEEP IT.

John 3:36 (HCSB)
[SUP]36 [/SUP]The one who believes in the Son has eternal life {born again (human spirit birthed into eternal life) and therefore that person is SAVED}, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

VCO · Dec 5, 2016

Here is a simple way to picture this discussion on Salvation, and the relationship of the our works. This came to me as I meditated on His word and remembering my childhood of growing up on the farm.

John 15:8-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] My Father is glorified by this: that you produce much fruit and prove to be My disciples.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “As the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you. Remain in My love.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If you keep My commands you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commands and remain in His love.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] “I have spoken these things to you so that My joy may be in you and your joy may be complete.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] This is My command: Love one another as I have loved you.

GOD is the Farmer.

HIS LOVE, is the Rain, Fertilizer, Tractor, Trailor, and Elevator, needed to bring in the Harvest.

THE CORN CRIB, is Eternal Life in Heaven.

THE SEED CORN is HIS WORD that was planted in the Good Soil of our hearts.

THE CORN SPROUT coming out of ground, is our human spirit coming to ETERNAL LIFE, being BORN AGAIN.

ALL THE SEED KERNELS ON EACH EAR OF CORN are our WORKS.

SO, how much credit do you think our WORKS deserve, for getting INTO THE CORN CRIB?

ZacharyB · Dec 5, 2016

mailmandan said:

First, those of us who have the new nature are FREE from the bondage of sin,
i.e. our nature no longer demands that we MUST sin,
i.e. we no longer are slaves to sin!
Geez, I do hope that everyone accepts this KEY to understanding!

Second, works refers to good works/good deeds ... towards mankind ... not towards God.
So, obedience to God and His commands has nothing to do with works!

PeterJens · Dec 5, 2016

VCO said:

My friend, now the problem is not your definition but who you aim it at.
I am not a works salvationist, never have been.

My question is why are you addicted to believing people are works salvationists
when they are not. People jump to the wrong conclusions because it fits their
world view, and those guys over there must be lying.

The next point is simple. People who believe in love and caring, speaking from the
heart, may get concerned by people saying how you behave is not important, you
will just become like Christ by just identifying yourself as saved.

Most believers have no problem with enthusiasm to be good, righteous, pure.
We have a problem with people with closed hearts and trapped in sin.

So who do you want to encourage and who do you want to discourage.
Those desiring to follow Jesus you want to discourage, and to encourage
those who do not see the slavery of sin and live compromised lives.

VCO · Dec 5, 2016

ZacharyB said:

Please give us the chapter and verse on that line that I just changed to red.

Romans 3:20 (ASV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

PeterJens · Dec 6, 2016

VCO said:

Beliefs

1. One off transaction to establish one in the kingdom.
2. A walk which transforms the believer into the image of Christ.

1. One off transaction to establish one in the kingdom.
This is putting faith in Christ, who then gives us a new spirit, eternal, perfect, irrevocable.

2. We are a new creation, a new beginning and in the walk we grow into becoming
the image of Christ through obedience and love.

Accusation - If you do not believe the transaction is irrevocable you have not had it.

Problem - An unconditional irrevocable change cannot be chosen, and happens to all
alike who have faith in Christ. To suggest some have not had this purely because they
do not believe it is irrevocable is putting a condition on salvation beyond faith.

The walk is saying the relationship has been established and now new life has begun
founded on communion, love and obedience.

But with all active things they can be stopped, and walked away from as Jesus described
in the parable of the seed and the sower.

So the attack against believers about not being saved is unfounded and wrong.
It is also counter productive as it is discouraging the very people you claim to want to
encourage to walk closer to Jesus. It suggests to me the fruit of your theology is
destructive, thorns and thistles. Odd that for greater spiritual insight.

Whoever started this cart and horse analogy, is talking to the wrong people.
We are never accepted by God because of our righteousness, but our righteousness is
the fruit of His work in our hearts through repentance and faith in Christ.

It would appear this is also what you are saying, but hate any suggestion obedience,
righteousness, sin, repentance, confession are part of the walk and part of our life
of transformation.

ZacharyB · Dec 6, 2016

VCO said:

Is there a verse for every spiritual truth?
During his prayer time, the Lord told Tom to donate $500 to his church's baptistery fund.
What happened to Tom is a real spiritual truth.
Is there a verse for that?

Jesus said 4 times in John 14, "If you love Me, you will keep (obey) My commandments."

So, why argue about if this is a work or not?

Why? Because most here just simply refuse to heed God's commands, warnings, and etc.
And they think they're going to heaven.

“You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize
that you are (spiritually) wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. (Rev 3:17)

VCO · Dec 6, 2016

ZacharyB said:

You are missing the key point, LOVE FOR HIM comes first via GOD's Love that was poured into your heart; which is the moment you were SAVED. Learning to walk in Obedience is Sanctification, which is what genuine SALVATION will always produce.

ZacharyB · Dec 7, 2016

VCO said:

Yes, and since many here are fighting against OBEYING Jesus' commandments,
what does this prove about their salvation?

Grandpa · Dec 7, 2016

ZacharyB said:

You misunderstand.

No one fights against obeying the Lords commands.

What is being fought against is your works at them and carnal understanding of them.

There is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof is death. That being your carnal understanding of commands and your subsequent work at them.

It sure does seem right to work at those commands. Especially in your eyes. Heed those warnings so you can keep yourself un-defiled.

Trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding. If you are working at commandments and heeding 'warnings' you aren't trusting in the Lord with all your heart. You are leaning unto your own understanding...

VCO · Dec 7, 2016

ZacharyB said:

First of all Spiritual growth mirrors physical growth.

You learn to crawl before you learn to toddle; you toddle, before you walk like a child; you walk like a child before you walk like an adolescent teenager; and you walk like an adolescent teenager before you learn walk like a man or woman. I even believe there is a level of spiritual maturity that is like a spiritual grandfather.

So your yard stick that you are measuring other people with, will only apply to measuring yourself, and the Lord will certainly use YOUR YARDSTICK to measure YOU:

Matthew 7:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and
by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye,
but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

And just in case you think you have arrived at full spiritual maturity:

Romans 14:23 (ASV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But he that doubteth is condemned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith;
and whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

How much of your life or things in your life, ARE STILL NOT OF FAITH?

James 2:10 (NIV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For whoever keeps the whole law and
yet stumbles at just one point
is guilty of breaking all of it.

know1 · Dec 7, 2016

ZacharyB said:

I am sure you know by now that to many on this forum, you have blasphemed and are teaching a doctrine of devils. Most here on CC don't believe one can lose their salvation, regardless of how eloquently and scripturally accurate you put it. Like you, I too believe one can lose their salvation if they don't do the will of God as the parable states. Many don't believe the devil can blind the minds of the children of God either. So waving a loaded gun in front of a blind person wont make them see the light until they first can see/perceive the loaded gun pointing at them.
I would however like to point out that the bedrock or the rock that the wise person dug deep into and laid the foundation of their house on, represents God's word. Not personal experiences or the testimonies of others, or the doctrines of denominational churches, or the natural things of this world. We are saved by grace through faith in the word/promises of God, and we are told that IF we keep that word in our hearts, we shall continue in the son. For Jesus is the word of God and the word of God is spirit, and as the spirit is in us, so are we. If we therefore keep His word, we shall keep Jesus, and we then shall be like Him, and therefore will seek to do His will.
Also, many don't think they have to repent of their sins to be forgiven. After all, once saved always saved, right? Again, many think forgiveness is an automatic thing of once washed/cleansed in the blood of Jesus, always washed/cleansed, not taking into consideration the scripture in 1 Jn. Nor do they believe the consequences of sin. Nine times out of ten, sickness comes on a person, parent, or child due to sin, and sometimes, depending on the severity of the sin, it doesn't matter how much faith one has, until they repent of that sin in their heart and verbally name and confess that sin as a sin against God, the curse will not be broken. But if they do repent and confess the sin, then God will remove the curse, for God is the one who put it their in the first place, according to Deut 28. After the curse is removed, then one must remove the worker of that curse by casting it out with the word of God, or still the healing will not come. The devil, through his demons, afflicts people with a sickness or disease like the stink that is with a skunk. If you get rid of the skunk the stink leaves with it, even though the sickness or disease are physical entities,.
Jesus clearly tied forgiveness to healing with the man who had the palsy and James with the one in need of the prayer of faith. So one MUST be forgiven to get healed. But as we are forgiven of our sins for salvation by grace through faith, so are we forgiven of, I would say, the lesser sins that are not unto death, through the same said prayer of faith, as it is written in James 5:15. Either way, the sin has to be forgiven, otherwise the spirit causing or the source cause of the sickness or disease, will have a legal right to be there and you will not be able to cast it out or get healed, in most cases.
Good post though.

know1 · Dec 7, 2016

VCO said:

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

know1 · Dec 7, 2016

ZacharyB said:

I think they see good works or deeds as being toward God and not so much toward man.
I however see there being more than one kind of work written in the bible. The works written by Paul in Romans and Ephesians is not the same as the works written by James.
One can walk uprightly before God by obeying the law or even the new testament commandments. That is, to love God and your neighbor as yourself. But the JUST shall live by faith, and the faith that justifies is the kind James speaks of, where it is accompanied by works.
These works are the same kind that Jesus and His disciples did. These works are that of the Spirit of Christ/God, which is the Word of God. It is the Word of God that made the worlds and brought us into the kingdom of God, and it is the same word of faith, (that is the word of God spoken in faith) that proceeds out of our mouths that does the work.
Even as our righteousness is not our own, neither is this work that justifies of us, nor it is of our own power. I cannot heal anyone, but the same word that was with power in Jesus and the same word that was sent to heal and deliver, can, if I do as Jesus did.
So if I believe and act on Mk 11:23 or 24 and cast out demons or get what I ask for, as it is written, then it is not I doing the work, but God through His word. I simply have to believe it in my heart and act accordingly. If one truly believes something, they will act on it, regardless of the odds or contrary circumstances.
So to me, one form of work is of man through obedience, and the other is of God by His word through the man of faith.

VCO · Dec 7, 2016

know1 said:

Now is that spiritually clean, or physically clean? Since you apparently think it applies to both, why did Paul write this:

Romans 7:14-25 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;
[SUP]4 [/SUP] that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] not in the passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] that no one transgress and wrong his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as we told you beforehand and solemnly warned you.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Therefore whoever disregards this, disregards not man but God, who gives his Holy Spirit to you.

Philippians 1:6 (ESV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:9-12 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

Ephesians 4:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Sanctification of the body is a life-long process of studying and applying that knowledge to our Christian Walk.

1 John 2:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

VCO · Dec 7, 2016

know1 said:

AND why did Paul write THIS?

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NIV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

No, the human spirit was cleansed and saved in an instant, but the Sanctification of this body with a sin nature in it, is a life-long struggle, and will not be completed until Christ gives us our glorified body at the Resurrection.

ZacharyB · Dec 7, 2016

VCO said:

I could repeat for the 10 millionth time what I'm doin' here, butski I tink I won't bother.
Carry on with your misunderstanding of who I am, what I believe, how much faith I have, etc.

FYI, I have the incredibly-strong spiritually powerful "gift of faith" (1 Cor 12),
which is completely necessary to do the evangelizing I did in Eastern Europe.

know1 · Dec 7, 2016

VCO said:

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

As the spirit is, so is the man, for as a man thinks in his heart, so is he.

1Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

As stated above, we are made clean by and through the word of God,... if it remains in us.

Luk 11:39 And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness.

It is spiritually clean, for we are even as He is that is in us.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Even as our righteousness is not our own, neither is our cleanliness. We are clean by and because of the seed/offspring/word/spirit of the Spirit of God abiding in our righteous/clean/new/fresh spirit. That is why we are clean. Not the outside or physical part of the cup, but the inside or the inward part of the cup, that is the spiritual part.
So we are not clean through our obedience to do good deeds or by obeying the law, but by and through keeping that which is clean, which is the word of God, in our hearts. For as the tree is so is the man. If the seed be holy, so will the roots be holy, and if the root be holy, so will the tree, and if the tree be holy, so will it's fruit. The kind of seed that one agrees with, believes, and receives personally, is the seed that will be planted in their heart, and that seed will cause the person to be as it is. If it is of God, then it will cause one to be like God. That is why Jesus said, either make the tree good and his fruit will be good or else make the tree corrupt and his fruit will be corrupt.

A_Friend_In_Christ · Dec 7, 2016

People beware, there are a lot of out there people on these forums. They claim to be real Christians, but are they? Be careful what you read and what you believe on here.

Always check with God and the bible first. Amen.

What’s involved in doing God’s will unto salvation?

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