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The Stone which the builders rejected
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Okay, I'm back with the monster. So there are a few different numbers given for stone. This means they are different original words. I'll start with the number given for the Zech verse we're looking at. #68. So now I flip to the Hebrew section to #68.
It first gives the spelling in actual Hebrew letters, then the spelling of the word converted to English letters, then the pronunciation of the word. Then it says, from the root of 1129. (This is often helpful to a rounder understanding. It would be like saying...in English, such and such a word originates from this word, and if you weren't English speaking, it would helpful to you to get a rounder understanding by kno ing the definition of the root word in addition to the definition of the actual word derived from it.)
So then I have to mark my place and flip forward to #1129. It says, a primitive root. This means you have gone backwards as far as you can in the family tree, so to speak, of the word. This is the only root it derives from. It says, to build, (literally and figuratively), (begin to) build, obtain children, make, repair, set up surely.
That's the root that the word I want to understand comes from. It is NOT the definition of the word but it can help my rounder understanding OF the word, which I look up next. Flip back to #68. It says: from the root of 1129 through the meaning of "to build." - A stone. (plus possibly - carbuncle or mason or plummet) So the word could be translated, depending on the surrounding context of the other verses or even just the rest of the verse, as any of the following: mason stone, carbuncle stone, or plummet stone. Then it goes on to give even more things it could be translated as. - chalk stone, hail stone, sling stone. Then even further it says: stony or diverse weight or weights.
Now we can use the root wisely here by determining what we may be able to actually eliminate as not the best meaning considering the context in the verse in Zech. So if the root suggests building and the context of the verse seems to suggest building, we could probably do away with the one possible definition of "hail stone", right? Because in this case, the root does help us (even though it doesn't always, because in another context, it may be translated as actual hailstones, in which case it's too far removed from the root of "to build" and actually means something more related to weather. (Although....you could possibly build an igloo out of hail stones haha!)
Need to take care of dogs. If you want me to continue when I come back I am glad to. Or if this is not helping you, we can drop it too.
Let's continue I'm enjoy chatting with you. The root word means to build and stone means stone. Could we not assume that means a stone that has been shaped verses a stone that hasn't been shaped... a natural stone verses a chiseled stone.
I completely missed posts 67 and 71!
I'm using a very old dictionary and it's not one of the extremely conclusive ones.
Are you saying that headstone, when used in the context of building something rather than in the meaning of in a graveyard, can mean a main support stone? Because that seems to fit both the context of the passage AND with the root word in Hebrew AND with the actual word we are studying...
By the way, my dictionary does not have "mason stone" but from looking up different related words like mason and masonry, I WAS able to come to sort of an understanding that a mason stone is like...a stone that strengthens a construction...?
I'm using a very old dictionary and it's not one of the extremely conclusive ones.
Are you saying that headstone, when used in the context of building something rather than in the meaning of in a graveyard, can mean a main support stone? Because that seems to fit both the context of the passage AND with the root word in Hebrew AND with the actual word we are studying...
By the way, my dictionary does not have "mason stone" but from looking up different related words like mason and masonry, I WAS able to come to sort of an understanding that a mason stone is like...a stone that strengthens a construction...?
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BeyondET
Guest
Interesting statement KJV even a natural stone is shaped for that's why it's called a stone, a natural stone that hasn't been shaped is called a rock. River bed stone differs from river bed rock.
I should have added shaped by human hands. In other words the builders made the stone into a specific shape.
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BeyondET
Guest
Yea that just like the word Head can be used in other ways just not the top of your forhead but I'm making headway on my project.. If I'm not mistaken the combo of mason first then stone isnt used like that in the English language, it is used in this way stone first then mason,,, stone mason
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BeyondET
Guest
Or IMO the verses before that David speaks of others aka builders pushing him almost to fall beating on him swarming around him. Which can very well mean was being shaped formed not in a bad way but just like rain beatin down on rock the rain will shape the rock...
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BeyondET
Guest
Like at the beginning of the battle I was like a rock but at the end of the battle I was a stone...
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BeyondET
Guest
This concept I use can be just like when a person becomes a Christian they start out as a rock then after some seasoning that same christain is now a stone..
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BeyondET
Guest
IMO The bees swarming verse is a main key, real bees were not swarming around David its symbolic and a person has to look at nature the bee for what is it that's important about the bee to mention it in psalm it's the fact the bee are builders a hand full of animals in nature are what is called builders, a few are birds, bees, ants,
There us no such thing as a headstone being the top stone that I know of.
Edit: The top stone of a building would be called keystone.
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Well...this is interesting what you bring up here, for many reasons that sort of drift through my head.
First though, I want to say that a post of yours quite a ways back also was interesting because...it had some spiritual tone and yet you have to first go with a literal meaning and the Spirit sort of adds the spiritual tone in a different way than the literal meaning.
But the post of interest was where you said something like...Jesus, (who is in places in scripture called a stone, a rock, etc., is also called a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense), is somewhat like a gravestone for the law I think you said? And what drifted through my mind at the time, those sort of lazy, lax, gentle intuitive connections or brief flashes that seep through your mind which I think are given by the Spirit at times, was that a headstone is a stone of offense to us - offends our sensibilities, distresses us because it means death, makes us sad. It is a stone of offense that signifies death to us. And then part of another verse flashed through - whoever this stone falls on it will crush to dust...and then, many will stumble of this rock never to rise again....and then, He is the smell of death to those who are perishing... That's as near as I can come to trying to explain that some things flowed together in spirit, intuitively.
BUT, you must start with the best literal translation. And headstone as in, grave marker, has some spiritual tone, but not literal.
Anyway, again something just floated through and intertwined when you spoke of a hewn stone or a stone not hewn by human hands. I believe this stone in Zech is Jesus and...He is not created or cut from human hands but is from God. So I think of the two choices you gave, I would say it is He, the untooled stone, not shaped by human hands spoken of in places in scripture.
Don't know if all that will sound nuts to some, but I think some will catch the wind of it...
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BeyondET
Guest
That's not necessarily true Because the word keystone was not in the English language until 1637,, when the eygptians were building those great pyramids that main support stone was called something else possibly either head stone or corner stone or something completely else...
But,
just prior to this stone being spoken of, God says, NOT by human might or working - so I believe the stone was a stone from Gods' working, not of human but, as God says, by MY Spirit, NOT by might or strength (of man).
I can see head stone meaning top stone or capping off stone, as in building, and so can at least see where they came up with that translation, but the "head" part would be as in...the head and not the tail, or the chiefest/most importantly strong stone, or like the stone that actually does the most to hold up an archway...
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BeyondET
Guest
In the second chapter that the OP posted this teaching is of prophecy about Jesus a precious stone cornerstone...
Woe to the Leaders of Ephraim and Judah
1Woe to that wreath, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards,
to the fading flower, his glorious beauty,
set on the head of a fertile valley—
to that city, the pride of those laid low by wine!
2See, the Lord has one who is powerful and strong.
Like a hailstorm and a destructive wind,
like a driving rain and a flooding downpour,
he will throw it forcefully to the ground.
3That wreath, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards,
will be trampled underfoot.
4That fading flower, his glorious beauty,
set on the head of a fertile valley,
will be like figs ripe before harvest—
as soon as people see them and take them in hand,
they swallow them.
5In that day the Lord Almighty
will be a glorious crown,
a beautiful wreath
for the remnant of his people.
6He will be a spirit of justice
to the one who sits in judgment,
a source of strength
to those who turn back the battle at the gate.
7And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
they stagger when seeing visions,
they stumble when rendering decisions.
8All the tables are covered with vomit
and there is not a spot without filth.
9“Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?
10For it is:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for thata ;
a little here, a little there.”
11Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
12to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”—
but they would not listen.
13So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that;
a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
they will be injured and snared and captured.
14Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.
15You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehoodb our hiding place.”
16So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who relies on it
will never be stricken with panic.
17I will make justice the measuring line
and righteousness the plumb line;
hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie,
and water will overflow your hiding place.
18Your covenant with death will be annulled;
your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand.
When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
you will be beaten down by it.
19As often as it comes it will carry you away;
morning after morning, by day and by night,
it will sweep through.”
The understanding of this message
will bring sheer terror.
20The bed is too short to stretch out on,
the blanket too narrow to wrap around you.
21The Lord will rise up as he did at Mount Perazim,
he will rouse himself as in the Valley of Gibeon—
to do his work, his strange work,
and perform his task, his alien task.
22Now stop your mocking,
or your chains will become heavier;
the Lord, the Lord Almighty, has told me
of the destruction decreed against the whole land.
23Listen and hear my voice;
pay attention and hear what I say.
24When a farmer plows for planting, does he plow continually?
Does he keep on breaking up and working the soil?
25When he has leveled the surface,
does he not sow caraway and scatter cumin?
Does he not plant wheat in its place,c
barley in its plot,d
and spelt in its field?
26His God instructs him
and teaches him the right way.
27Caraway is not threshed with a sledge,
nor is the wheel of a cart rolled over cumin;
caraway is beaten out with a rod,
and cumin with a stick.
28Grain must be ground to make bread;
so one does not go on threshing it forever.
The wheels of a threshing cart may be rolled over it,
but one does not use horses to grind grain.
29All this also comes from the Lord Almighty,
whose plan is wonderful,
whose wisdom is magnificent
Woe to the Leaders of Ephraim and Judah
1Woe to that wreath, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards,
to the fading flower, his glorious beauty,
set on the head of a fertile valley—
to that city, the pride of those laid low by wine!
2See, the Lord has one who is powerful and strong.
Like a hailstorm and a destructive wind,
like a driving rain and a flooding downpour,
he will throw it forcefully to the ground.
3That wreath, the pride of Ephraim’s drunkards,
will be trampled underfoot.
4That fading flower, his glorious beauty,
set on the head of a fertile valley,
will be like figs ripe before harvest—
as soon as people see them and take them in hand,
they swallow them.
5In that day the Lord Almighty
will be a glorious crown,
a beautiful wreath
for the remnant of his people.
6He will be a spirit of justice
to the one who sits in judgment,
a source of strength
to those who turn back the battle at the gate.
7And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
they stagger when seeing visions,
they stumble when rendering decisions.
8All the tables are covered with vomit
and there is not a spot without filth.
9“Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?
10For it is:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for thata ;
a little here, a little there.”
11Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
12to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”—
but they would not listen.
13So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that;
a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
they will be injured and snared and captured.
14Therefore hear the word of the Lord, you scoffers
who rule this people in Jerusalem.
15You boast, “We have entered into a covenant with death,
with the realm of the dead we have made an agreement.
When an overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
it cannot touch us,
for we have made a lie our refuge
and falsehoodb our hiding place.”
16So this is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation;
the one who relies on it
will never be stricken with panic.
17I will make justice the measuring line
and righteousness the plumb line;
hail will sweep away your refuge, the lie,
and water will overflow your hiding place.
18Your covenant with death will be annulled;
your agreement with the realm of the dead will not stand.
When the overwhelming scourge sweeps by,
you will be beaten down by it.
19As often as it comes it will carry you away;
morning after morning, by day and by night,
it will sweep through.”
The understanding of this message
will bring sheer terror.
20The bed is too short to stretch out on,
the blanket too narrow to wrap around you.
21The Lord will rise up as he did at Mount Perazim,
he will rouse himself as in the Valley of Gibeon—
to do his work, his strange work,
and perform his task, his alien task.
22Now stop your mocking,
or your chains will become heavier;
the Lord, the Lord Almighty, has told me
of the destruction decreed against the whole land.
23Listen and hear my voice;
pay attention and hear what I say.
24When a farmer plows for planting, does he plow continually?
Does he keep on breaking up and working the soil?
25When he has leveled the surface,
does he not sow caraway and scatter cumin?
Does he not plant wheat in its place,c
barley in its plot,d
and spelt in its field?
26His God instructs him
and teaches him the right way.
27Caraway is not threshed with a sledge,
nor is the wheel of a cart rolled over cumin;
caraway is beaten out with a rod,
and cumin with a stick.
28Grain must be ground to make bread;
so one does not go on threshing it forever.
The wheels of a threshing cart may be rolled over it,
but one does not use horses to grind grain.
29All this also comes from the Lord Almighty,
whose plan is wonderful,
whose wisdom is magnificent
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B
BeyondET
Guest
and in this verse posted Matt in the OP 21: 42 in which that is simply Jesus talking about the Pharisees as the builders just as in psalm 118 which they themselves meaning chief priest and Pharisees knew Jesus was talking about them the bees swarming builders
Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King
1As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”
4This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
5“Say to Daughter Zion,
‘See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ”a
6The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. 7They brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on. 8A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted,
“Hosannab to the Son of David!”
“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”c
“Hosannad in the highest heaven!”
10When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”
11The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”
Jesus at the Temple
12Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13“It is written,” he said to them, “ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’e but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’f ”
14The blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them. 15But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple courts, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they were indignant.
16“Do you hear what these children are saying?” they asked him.
“Yes,” replied Jesus, “have you never read,
“ ‘From the lips of children and infants
you, Lord, have called forth your praise’g ?”
17And he left them and went out of the city to Bethany, where he spent the night.
Jesus Curses a Fig Tree
18Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
The Authority of Jesus Questioned
23Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you this authority?”
24Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 25John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?”
They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’ 26But if we say, ‘Of human origin’—we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”
27So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.”
Then he said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
The Parable of the Two Sons
28“What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
29“ ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30“Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
31“Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
The Parable of the Tenants
33“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
38“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“ ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’h ?
43“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”i
45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held
Jesus Comes to Jerusalem as King
1As they approached Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2saying to them, “Go to the village ahead of you, and at once you will find a donkey tied there, with her colt by her. Untie them and bring them to me. 3If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away.”
4This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet:
5“Say to Daughter Zion,
‘See, your king comes to you,
gentle and riding on a donkey,
and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’ ”a
6The disciples went and did as Jesus had instructed them. 7They brought the donkey and the colt and placed their cloaks on them for Jesus to sit on. 8A very large crowd spread their cloaks on the road, while others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. 9The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted,
“Hosannab to the Son of David!”
“Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!”c
“Hosannad in the highest heaven!”
10When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”
11The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”
Jesus at the Temple
12Jesus entered the temple courts and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13“It is written,” he said to them, “ ‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’e but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’f ”
14The blind and the lame came to him at the temple, and he healed them. 15But when the chief priests and the teachers of the law saw the wonderful things he did and the children shouting in the temple courts, “Hosanna to the Son of David,” they were indignant.
16“Do you hear what these children are saying?” they asked him.
“Yes,” replied Jesus, “have you never read,
“ ‘From the lips of children and infants
you, Lord, have called forth your praise’g ?”
17And he left them and went out of the city to Bethany, where he spent the night.
Jesus Curses a Fig Tree
18Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered.
20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked.
21Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
The Authority of Jesus Questioned
23Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you this authority?”
24Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 25John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?”
They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’ 26But if we say, ‘Of human origin’—we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”
27So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.”
Then he said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
The Parable of the Two Sons
28“What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’
29“ ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30“Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.
31“Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
“The first,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
The Parable of the Tenants
33“Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.
38“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”
41“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”
42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“ ‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’h ?
43“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”i
45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held
I don't think so, not me personally.
I think it refers back to the previous verses in Chapter three, the stone laid before Joshua, the stone with seven eyes. That is the Spirit of God, in my view, and it strangely and mysteriously ties into the lampstand with 7 bowls that the angel explains is the Spirit of God, the Lamb of Revelation that looked as if He had been slain who had seven eyes, and many other verses. It is all so wonderful and although I want to understand it all at once, He gives me understanding and the connections just little by little as I get to know Him more and more.