This is just your way of thinking, not the scriptures. The Bible teaches that no man know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son is pleased to reveal him. So there is ongoing revelation, so that people can be saved. Paul prayed for beleivers to have the Spirit of revelation. Romans 1 speaks of that which may be known of God being understood by the things that are made-- revelation through creation.The Bible also speaks of gifts given to the church, like prophecy. I Corinthians shows us that prophesying is a revelatory thing, because it says if a revelation cometh to him who sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. If you mean by 'new revelations', adding to the gospel, no that doesn't happen. But God can reveal that such and such a person is supposed to go to Africa. Or He can show a believer about some detail in another's life to help bring encouragement, correction, etc. God is sovereign and He is not bound by your pronouncements about what he can and cannot do. You can't show any scripture at all for many of these pronouncements, even the one about God not giving any new revelation. You have to take verses that don't say what you are saying to back it up, like a passage about not adding to the scroll of the book of Revelation.
God may choose to have beleivers do signs and wonders, which may lead unbelievers to believe. Jesus told a man, 'Except ye see signs and wonders, ye shall not beleive' and then healed the one the man had asked to be healed. You shouldn't be against the works of Christ.
Does this have anything to do with the fact that many cessationists on this forum refuse to believe God does certain things unless you physically show them evidence, and the fact that people who believe God does things will believe that God does something just based on scripture whether they see it or not? I haven't seen God raise the dead, but I believe He may do it through individuals in the church, and I am waiting for the resurrection at the end of the age as well.Where is the 'who walk after the flesh' part in the Bible?By the way, some people read about an evil and adulterous generation seeking after a sign and make the logical error of affirming the consequent. He doesn't say that anyone who seeks a sign is an evil and adulterous generation, but that an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign. This doesn't tell us whether it is wrong for the non-evil and non-adutlerous to seek a sign. These people sought a sign and he said no sign would be given to it but the sign of the prophet Jonah. The apostles asked for the sign of his coming and of the end of the age and He answered their question at length, including the verse from Matthew 24 you quote below:
As usually on this topic, you are off balance, not taking into consideration the whole counsel of scripture, interpeting one part in a way that contradicts others.Jesus had said, as recorded in the previous chapter, "Behold, I send unto you, prophets, and wise men, and scribes...." So He established the fact that He would send prophets. He also said that he that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophets reward. Ephesians 4:11 shows that after He ascended, He gave gifts unto men, including prophets. Joel's prophecy, as interpreted in Acts 2, shows that the last days are characterized by an outpouring of the LORD"s Spirit and prophesying.We also see that the gift of prophesying and the gift of the working of miracles are given to members of the body as the Spirit wills.So a Biblical understanding of the last days is that there are true and false prophets, genuine miracles, and also lying signs and wonders. We are required to discern, not accept all indiscriminately, but not reject all just because they occur in the last days. Your teaching is unbiblical.
Tongues Again???
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But the problem is many people misinterpret His Word, and never realize it, because they lean on experience and feelings to confirm what is Truth. Instead of learning from the Bereans and searching the Scriptures confirming the True meaning by comparing one verse to other verses on the same subject.
Yes, that is a problem in this thread, that and leaning on poor eisegesis that misuses historical information.
How many cessationists on here use the fact that they haven't experienced something as evidence for cessationism?
The Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonicans and they were right to search the scriptures. But Bereans ran Paul out of town, too, like the Thessalonicans.
How many cessationists on here use the fact that they haven't experienced something as evidence for cessationism?
The Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonicans and they were right to search the scriptures. But Bereans ran Paul out of town, too, like the Thessalonicans.
This is clearly false and unbiblical, or Paul would not have been forgiven.
The ones who saw him MIGHT have been eye witnesses of the miracle they had attributed to the Devil. But Jesus did not say that only the eye witnesses who speaks against the Spirit would not be forgiven. The text says 'whosoever'.
The ones who saw him MIGHT have been eye witnesses of the miracle they had attributed to the Devil. But Jesus did not say that only the eye witnesses who speaks against the Spirit would not be forgiven. The text says 'whosoever'.
You would be wrong if you really think faking tongues and interpretations is difficult.
My wife was taught to pray in Tongues in the Pentecostal Church she grew up in, when they lived in Loisiana. She said the Pastor told her "Say Jesus, Jesus, Jesus over and over again as fast as you can and GOD will turn it into a heavenly language only He understands."; and it WORKED. Years later before I met her, she came to conclusion that it all was a fake form of tongues that was nothing more than learned behavior, imitating what she heard other doing in the Church.
THEN decades later when I was doing a serious study on Tongues, while I was looking into the PAGAN Mystery Religions use of tongues; I found that in the Worship of Apollo the Pagan Priests taught their followers to speak in tongues some 300 years before Christ, by these instructions, "Say batta, batta, batta, over and over again as fast as you can and the gods will turn it into a language only they can understand." When I told my wife what I had found, she GASPED and said that was exactly how she was taught to do it in that Louisiana Pentecostal Church. She had NEVER told me that story prior to my study discovery during my research of how the Greek Mystery Religions used and learned tongues speaking.
Back in the early 80s or late 70s, some Students from Dallas Theological Seminary decided to put that so-called gift of Interpretations to the TEST. One of the students memorized the 23rd Psalm in Hebrew. One Sunday they went to the largest Charismatic Church in Dallas. When the tongues speaking began, they waited until the first two speakers had their tongues interpreted by the same gentleman. Then the Dallas Theological Seminary student, who had memorized the 23rd Psalm in Hebrew, stood and quoted that Psalm in Hebrew. Sure enough the same gentleman stood and gave a very Biblical sounding Interpretation, BUT NOT ONE WORD OF IT WAS FROM THE 23rd PSALM.
Satan has been in the BUSINESS of imitating GOD's miracles at least as far back as Pharaoh's magicians, and you guys have no way to distinguish the true from the false.
My wife was taught to pray in Tongues in the Pentecostal Church she grew up in, when they lived in Loisiana. She said the Pastor told her "Say Jesus, Jesus, Jesus over and over again as fast as you can and GOD will turn it into a heavenly language only He understands."; and it WORKED. Years later before I met her, she came to conclusion that it all was a fake form of tongues that was nothing more than learned behavior, imitating what she heard other doing in the Church.
THEN decades later when I was doing a serious study on Tongues, while I was looking into the PAGAN Mystery Religions use of tongues; I found that in the Worship of Apollo the Pagan Priests taught their followers to speak in tongues some 300 years before Christ, by these instructions, "Say batta, batta, batta, over and over again as fast as you can and the gods will turn it into a language only they can understand." When I told my wife what I had found, she GASPED and said that was exactly how she was taught to do it in that Louisiana Pentecostal Church. She had NEVER told me that story prior to my study discovery during my research of how the Greek Mystery Religions used and learned tongues speaking.
Back in the early 80s or late 70s, some Students from Dallas Theological Seminary decided to put that so-called gift of Interpretations to the TEST. One of the students memorized the 23rd Psalm in Hebrew. One Sunday they went to the largest Charismatic Church in Dallas. When the tongues speaking began, they waited until the first two speakers had their tongues interpreted by the same gentleman. Then the Dallas Theological Seminary student, who had memorized the 23rd Psalm in Hebrew, stood and quoted that Psalm in Hebrew. Sure enough the same gentleman stood and gave a very Biblical sounding Interpretation, BUT NOT ONE WORD OF IT WAS FROM THE 23rd PSALM.
Satan has been in the BUSINESS of imitating GOD's miracles at least as far back as Pharaoh's magicians, and you guys have no way to distinguish the true from the false.
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I'm trying to figure out what this has to do with the post of mine you were responding to, other than presenting a bit of background information about the church in Corinth. All of us who are familiar with Acts know that Paul went to synagogues first, and that he did so in Corinth. Typically, the church would have started with a group of Jews and Gentile God-fearers who heard Paul at the synagogue.
I'd have to guess why you consider this relevant to the discussion. Before introducing spiritual gifts, Paul mentions the fact that his readers used to be led about by 'dumb idols', contrasting such pneumatika with the manifestations of the Spirit. So he treats his readers as predominantly former pagans.
When Paul writes about an unbeliever or unlearned man coming into the assembly, he does not specify whether such a man is a Jew or Gentile. We should not eisegete the idea into the text. Instead, we should understand the application of the passage Paul is making in the immediate context, just as we should with the 'not my people' prophecy from Hosea in Romans 9. The passages are similar in this regard. Would you say Paul uses that passage to refer exclusively to 'natural' Israel? It makes even less sense than your interpretation of I Corinthians 14.
I would like a specific source for the assertions you are making about a specific Greek word. Why should I believe you found it online or in the library if you can't produce it? I quoted the Wikipedia page, which cites real sources that have very different interpretations of the word. I read a Facebook post by someone who graduated from Trinity seminary who said that if his students were to read a Wikipedia article first, it would keep them from making mistakes, and that Wikipedia is better than a lot of other sources they cite. He wouldn't cite Wikipedia for a paper, but it is a good starting point. You argue that battalogeo has a very clear specific meaning. Various scholars disagree with you. Why should we believe you? The least you could do is present your evidence and make a case for your assertion.
Do you have a primary source that says that battalogeo has to do with someone saying 'say batta batta' or did some modern secondary source guess this is what it meant? I want to see real research, not speculation.
Beyond that, your approach to scripture is very liberal when it comes to I Corinthians 14. I follow a method of interpretation that a lot of people who do not believe in the gifts follow. It requires actually following the flow of argument in the text, rather than just taking a verse here or there, divorcing it from what Paul is saying, finding some 'evidence' from pagan literature that Paul is talking about something pagan, and coming up with a junk interpretation.
Paul is talking about a real spiritual gift. Tongue in the singular is good, because Paul says that if he prays in a tongue, his spirit prays, and that he would pray in the spirit. Speaking in tongues, plural, which we know because Paul spoke in tongues 'more than ye all'. If these utterances in tongues are interpreted, the interpretation edifies the body. Therefore, it stands to reason that the content of what is spoken in tongues is good. These are manifestations of the Spirit, in this passage, not of demons.
This interpretation that the speaking in tongues in I Corinthians 14 are pagan is the bizaar interpretation that doesn't hold water. If one doesn't believe I Corinthians is inspired, like some unbelievers think, he might equate it with pagan experiences. There are unbelieving 'scholars' who consider idol worship and worship of God in the temple to be more or less the same thing, who equate pagan religious experience with the religious experiences of the apostles. There are those who think Jesus learned to do miracles from pagans in India. Your interpretation is along this ilk. But it is not consistent with the interpretation methods of Bible-believing Christianity. It is in the same category with the homosexual-apologists interpretation, with the Greek pagans who equated Hebrew practices with aspects of their paganism, and with those who would argue that Abraham worshiped one of the detestable gods of the Egyptians during the stages of his life we read about in scripture.
Notice this is a prophecy of Yahweh talking, not Apollo or some other false God.
My question is why do you respond like the hypothetical unbelieving or uninstructed man in the passage, who responded to speaking in tongues with unbelief?
This is commentary on what Jews and Greeks wanted, not on God's designs for signs and wonders. In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabas report about the signs done among the Gentiles. We can read at least two specific accounts in the chapters prior.
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AND is is your eisegesis that is in serious ERROR.
As I said before, "there is nothing new under the sun", coming from your side of the fence.
That is why I have grown to dislike discussing this subject with any of the Charismatics or Pentecostals. I have not heard any new arguments in 20 years or more. Give it up already and agree to disagree. I post to encourage non-Charismatics.
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That sounds like a foolish way to approach speaking in tongues, trying to generate it falsely. Some early Pentecostals complained about it. I don't know about everyone else, but I wouldn't claim that everything that people claim is speaking in tongues really is.
On the other hand, I wouldn't teach an unbiblical level of skepticism toward the gift. We should have the same attitude toward the gift Paul displays in I Corinthians. Paul does not teach Christians to fear that it may be demonic. He does not say their speaking in tongues was akin to pagan practices.
As far as history goes, I wouldn't say that the pagans might not have mumbled some stuff. One of the Roman legends has an early king of Rome, before being crowned king, hearing the oracle of Delphi, and understanding it, though others could not. I am not sure if the oracle of Delphi was supposed to have spoken in riddles or some sort of incomprehensible syllables. There is a theory that there were some volcanic gasses leaking into the shrine that made the people there high.
Here is the problem, equating mystery religion practices with 'tongues' which is how we refer to an actual gift in the Bible.
How anyone could read I Corinthians 14 carefully and think Paul is talking about a false manifestation of a pagan gift is something I don't quite get. I understand that there could be spiritual blindness that can keep people from understanding simple things, but this interpretation is truly bizarre. My guess is most atheists would not have this kind of confusion when reading the passage.
You still haven't answered why Paul would think that interpreting pagan utterances would edify the church. Care to explain that one?
This looks like a folk etymology approach to the word, drawing a meaning out of the morphemes the words are made of. It's the same thing some people do with the word 'Nicolaitans'. It looks like you've combined it with some story about pagan priests, likely made up in modern times as an anti-tongues polemic. Do you have any evidence from ancient literature of priests actually teaching people to say this?
I heard the story before, but that time it was a different passage of scripture. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened. I'd also want to know if they did this, but what followed as a prophecy that said something along the lines of 'Do not put the LORD your God to the test.' What did they say after? Without that information, you can't really use this as evidence for your line of argument.
Do you have a YouTube video recording to show us of this Psalm 23 incident?
I notice here that your arguments against speaking in tongues rely on experience. You rely on your wife's experience. You rely on second hand experiences.
The issue here is whether the spiritual gift still exists. Neither example you gave disproves that. I don't think anyone on here would actually argue that there cannot be false manifestations of the gift or people who teach or do foolish things.
If you want to argue experiences, we should discuss the accounts of people who heard speaking in tongues in their own language, and confirmed the interpretation to be genuine, or people who understood tongues and there was no interpretation.
Sure we do. You can't always know from its content right away if a prophecy is true or false. But Jesus said we could know false prophets by their fruits. So, there is a test right there. We also know whether some prophecies, etc. are in accordance with the word and the testimony. And we can treat speaking in tongues like the Bible actually teaches us to in I Corinthians 14, instead of rejecting it like you do, or believing that the spiritual gifts in the very pages of scripture were pagan, like the idea you were promoting several pages back.
On the other hand, I wouldn't teach an unbiblical level of skepticism toward the gift. We should have the same attitude toward the gift Paul displays in I Corinthians. Paul does not teach Christians to fear that it may be demonic. He does not say their speaking in tongues was akin to pagan practices.
As far as history goes, I wouldn't say that the pagans might not have mumbled some stuff. One of the Roman legends has an early king of Rome, before being crowned king, hearing the oracle of Delphi, and understanding it, though others could not. I am not sure if the oracle of Delphi was supposed to have spoken in riddles or some sort of incomprehensible syllables. There is a theory that there were some volcanic gasses leaking into the shrine that made the people there high.
Here is the problem, equating mystery religion practices with 'tongues' which is how we refer to an actual gift in the Bible.
How anyone could read I Corinthians 14 carefully and think Paul is talking about a false manifestation of a pagan gift is something I don't quite get. I understand that there could be spiritual blindness that can keep people from understanding simple things, but this interpretation is truly bizarre. My guess is most atheists would not have this kind of confusion when reading the passage.
You still haven't answered why Paul would think that interpreting pagan utterances would edify the church. Care to explain that one?
This looks like a folk etymology approach to the word, drawing a meaning out of the morphemes the words are made of. It's the same thing some people do with the word 'Nicolaitans'. It looks like you've combined it with some story about pagan priests, likely made up in modern times as an anti-tongues polemic. Do you have any evidence from ancient literature of priests actually teaching people to say this?
I heard the story before, but that time it was a different passage of scripture. I'm not saying it couldn't have happened. I'd also want to know if they did this, but what followed as a prophecy that said something along the lines of 'Do not put the LORD your God to the test.' What did they say after? Without that information, you can't really use this as evidence for your line of argument.
Do you have a YouTube video recording to show us of this Psalm 23 incident?
I notice here that your arguments against speaking in tongues rely on experience. You rely on your wife's experience. You rely on second hand experiences.
The issue here is whether the spiritual gift still exists. Neither example you gave disproves that. I don't think anyone on here would actually argue that there cannot be false manifestations of the gift or people who teach or do foolish things.
If you want to argue experiences, we should discuss the accounts of people who heard speaking in tongues in their own language, and confirmed the interpretation to be genuine, or people who understood tongues and there was no interpretation.
Sure we do. You can't always know from its content right away if a prophecy is true or false. But Jesus said we could know false prophets by their fruits. So, there is a test right there. We also know whether some prophecies, etc. are in accordance with the word and the testimony. And we can treat speaking in tongues like the Bible actually teaches us to in I Corinthians 14, instead of rejecting it like you do, or believing that the spiritual gifts in the very pages of scripture were pagan, like the idea you were promoting several pages back.
That was a quote? I hadn't picked up on the fact that you were quoting some other human opinion, rather than stating your own human opinion.
I pointed out what Jesus Christ the Lord said.
If rejecting the truth about Jesus were unpardonable, Paul could not have been forgiven for it, and neither could the multitudes of believers who at one time or another 'kicked against the pricks.'
Some people reject the truth, repent, and then believe.
I pointed out what Jesus Christ the Lord said.
If rejecting the truth about Jesus were unpardonable, Paul could not have been forgiven for it, and neither could the multitudes of believers who at one time or another 'kicked against the pricks.'
Some people reject the truth, repent, and then believe.
That's really sad, considering the nonsense you spout and the straightforward Biblical arguments people can use against it.
I'd be curious in knowing what other cessationists on here think about the interpretation that the Corinthians were speaking 'pagan tongues' in I Corinthians 14? Do you think that Paul wanted pagan tongues interpreted to edify the church?
I'd be curious in knowing what other cessationists on here think about the interpretation that the Corinthians were speaking 'pagan tongues' in I Corinthians 14? Do you think that Paul wanted pagan tongues interpreted to edify the church?
READ either of his books, RATHER than mis-quote Dr. MacArthur and me, because both the Pagan style of tongues and the Genuine Gift of TONGUES were present in that most messed up and confused Church in the New Testament. They could not distinguish between the True and the False, and neither can you guys.
His two books on the Subject are:
The CHARIS-MATICS, and
CHARISMATIC CHAOS, and the new book
STRANGE FIRE, which is the one I have not personally read yet, but all three are on Amazon.com
His two books on the Subject are:
The CHARIS-MATICS, and
CHARISMATIC CHAOS, and the new book
STRANGE FIRE, which is the one I have not personally read yet, but all three are on Amazon.com
1 Corinthians 12:3 (ESV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
And I have documented where it has actually happened in two Charismatic gift believing Churches, and someone in that Church heard and understood the CURSING in a foreign language that the hearer had learned years before. Both times it was reported, and the Pastors refused to believe it.
Like I said, you guys have absolutely NO WAY to distinguish the True from the False.
EVERYONE, this is a perfect example of why I really do not want to discuss this subject with any Charismatic believing Christian, they always degenerate to this.
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Ongoing revelation is the extra biblical account where many cults fall into lines. The complete revelation of God’s Word is enough for people to have an understanding of salvation. The simple message of John 3:16 will suffice for any folk to be saved. I believe what the Bible says not what experience says. The Bible is the Final Revelation. “Thus sayeth the Lord”.
The gift of discerning spirit is given by the Holy Spirit in line with what the Bible says. Judging others, other than what the Bible teaches is not spirit of Christ working in him. That’s totally a different spirit.
Now concerning what the Bible teaches regarding “signs and wonders” which actually this scope of ministry was given during the days of the Apostles, since the death of the Apostles and the completion of the 66 books of the Bible is now no longer in operation as on those days of the Apostles. God can still works miracles, signs and wonders though at His own will and will be in operation during the lasts days when the saints are gone on earth. Much of the prophecy in the Revelation will be fulfilled including wonders and signs. This also includes Acts partial fulfillment during the Pentecost.
The gift of discerning spirit is given by the Holy Spirit in line with what the Bible says. Judging others, other than what the Bible teaches is not spirit of Christ working in him. That’s totally a different spirit.
Now concerning what the Bible teaches regarding “signs and wonders” which actually this scope of ministry was given during the days of the Apostles, since the death of the Apostles and the completion of the 66 books of the Bible is now no longer in operation as on those days of the Apostles. God can still works miracles, signs and wonders though at His own will and will be in operation during the lasts days when the saints are gone on earth. Much of the prophecy in the Revelation will be fulfilled including wonders and signs. This also includes Acts partial fulfillment during the Pentecost.
The Bible teaches this also
Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
This type of judging is a huge problem in this thread.
There is nothing in the Bible that cancels the teaching that the Spirit gives gifts, including the working of miracles, to believers today. As you pointed out God can do miracles, signs, and wonders as He wills. It would be foolish for men to presume to say that God cannot do signs and wonders now
Matthew 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
This type of judging is a huge problem in this thread.
There is nothing in the Bible that cancels the teaching that the Spirit gives gifts, including the working of miracles, to believers today. As you pointed out God can do miracles, signs, and wonders as He wills. It would be foolish for men to presume to say that God cannot do signs and wonders now