Tongues Again???

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presidente

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EASY, there is NO SUCH THING AS AN ANGEL LANGUAGE. Every time an angel spoke in the Bible they spoke in the language of the people they were talking to..
The angels were speaking to humans who speak human languages.

Paul wrote, 'Though I speak with the tongues of men of and angels' so the Bible does mention tongues of angels, which is why we are having this discussion?


Saying the angels always spoke human languages when they spoke to humans (to whom they were trying to give a message), when the Bible mentions 'tongues of angels' is not proof that there are 'tongues of angels.'

Paul mentioned the idea. We should at least allow that one might speak in tongues of angels. Paul also wrote about moving mountains. Are you going to argue that mountains do not exist.
 

presidente

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1 Corinthians 14:5 (YLT)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and I wish you all to speak with tongues, and more that ye may prophecy, for greater is he who is prophesying than he who is speaking with tongues, except one may interpret, that the assembly may receive edification.

The word prophesying at the time of Paul meant to proclaim the Word and Truths of GOD without error.
That is a very poor definition. Was teaching the word of God or preaching the word of God doing so with error? Was the difference between a teacher and a prophet that a teacher spoke with error. Clearly not. Peter described the speech of prophets in the Old Testament, 'Holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.' The New Testament uses the same words for prophesy, prophecy, and prophet to describe these things after the ascension as it uses to describe them in the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament, prophecies often started with 'Thus saith the LORD.' Similarly, Agabus said, 'Thus saith the Holy Ghost'. Prophesying is revelatory in nature, which we can also see because when Paul was giving instructions on prophesying, he writes 'And if a revelation come to another sitting by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy..."

The demonized pagan who claimed to speak by Apollo (which you wish to associate with references to the gift of tongues) were supposed to be 'prophesying.' Notice that prophesying has to do with speaking a message allegedly from God or a god, the Spirit, or a spirit.

Remember, there were not individual Bibles back then, mostly these huge scrolls, and a Synagogue may have only had ONE copy, because they were very expensive. So you were dependent on someone's memorized scripture remaining perfect, or the gift of prophecy or prophesying. Because human memory does not remain perfect. If you doubt that, wait till you get older, your day is coming.
If you read Eidersheim's Life and Times, he says that in Greek speaking areas, they would have copies of the Septuagint, which were much cheaper, and which they treated as inspired translations, arguing minor points out of the Greek. He writes that these copies were about twice the cost of books in his own day. Having a copy of the Bible would not have been such a rarity. And reading it would not have been treated the same as 'prophesying.' Is it I or II Maccabees that says they were waiting for a prophet to arise to determine something, but they could have read scripture. The Jews would not have defined reading Torah as prophesying.

Btw, those Torah scrolls in the picture are heavy, and they can do a number on your back if you dance around with them.
 

presidente

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Not sure where you got that someone had to interpret for others to be edified. The only one that could be edified is Christ.
Why don't you read I Corinthians 14 through to the end in a translation that uses the word 'edify?' and maybe you'll see it. The word translated 'edify' means 'to build' or 'to build up.' It is used of construction as well.

I Corinthians 14
[SUP]3 [/SUP]But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

See. Prophesying edifies the church. Interpreted tongues edify the church. Later in the chapter, Paul points out that if someone blesses with the spirit, he gives thanks well, but the other is not edified.

2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
If our faith leads to real results, like building people up, that is not what Paul is talking about when he says walking by sight. Peter had faith and could walk on water, a miracle which people could see and which Peter could physically experience. When Peter saw the wind and waves, he doubted and could no longer do the miracle. He sank, and Jesus helped him back into the boat. This is a good illustration of what it means to walk by sight. Peter looked at the circumstances and wavered his faith to do what Christ told Him to do. Notice he saw the wind of the waves, and the Bible says not to walk by sight.
 

presidente

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Peter explained what had just happened ... (Acts 2:15-16) .. "These people are not drunk as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning. No .. this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel". You neglected to say that each heard the spoken tongues (glorifying God) in their own languages. Why do you do this ?


If you look back over the 20 plus pages of this thread, you'll probably find several occasions where I point out what happened in Acts 2. If you will notice, the part you bolded actually argues against your own case. They spoke of the wonderful works of God. You even said glorifying God. It does NOT say that they preached the Gospel. Peter had to actually preach for the people to understand and be saved. It does not say that Peter spoke in tongues. Instead, he proclaimed the Gospel to them.

Do you think the disciples were preaching the Gospel in tongues? What would be the justification for this idea? The text doesn't say it. I'm not saying God couldn't do that. But the Bible doesn't teach that is the purpose of speaking in tongues or give any example of it the Gospel being explained in tongues. Why make a doctrine out of what the text does NOT say instead of what it does say?

And why do you deny what the purpose of tongues were for at pentecost, if not for the preaching of God's fulfilled promise of salvation in Christ ?
Sorry, I just don't think posters on this forum have the authority to decide what the purpose of tongues was at Pentecost apart from what God has revealed, yourself included. The Bible does not teach that the purpose of tongues at Pentecost was to preach the Gospel. It did gather attention, and then Peter preached the Gospel and that is how people were able to be saved.

The Bible says that God hath chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. It does not say that God has chosen speaking in tongues to save them that believe.

Basically, what I am saying is let's stick with the text of scripture.
 

presidente

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If you've ever seen someone full-blown demonized, it looks a lot different from speaking in tongues. Demons can speak through people, either in the language of their listeners or in other languages or, I suppose, gibberish.

In the Bible, glossolalia refers to what happened in Acts 2 and I Corinthians 14. But since then, linguists and scholars in various other fields use the term to refer to speaking something that isn't a language, and will describe it like in the article above.

It is totally inconsistent with Christianity to think that what the Corinthian Christians were doing as described in I Corinthians was the same thing demonized pagans were doing. The Corinthians were operating in spiritual gifts given by the Spirit of God, and needed correction to be mature in their understanding and practice.

It's conceivable that Paul used pneumatika and that the word might have been used also to describe pagan utterances. I'm not sure. It seems conceivable reading the text, but what pagans did through demons was clearly not charisma, since it was not from God's grace (charis).

What pagans do might be the 'glossolalia' the way some anthropologist defines the term now, but it is not 'glossolalia' according to the Biblical understanding of the meaning of the word. We shouldn't call pagan demonized ramblings as 'glossolalia'.

There is a warped type of thinking that some secular liberal types have that puts paganism and the worship of the true God in the same category. I've seen someone on a blog arguing that Abraham was a priest of Horus, trying to explain his marriage to Sarah in terms of detestable Egyptian paganism. He had a whole list of arguments. Basically, it tries to paint the true God as one of the detestable false gods of the Egyptians, whom Yahweh exposed with the plagues in Egypt. T

here were Greek pagans who would describe Hebrew temple rituals as being to Dionysis or whatever other false god of theirs who had a similar ritual.

There are also secular liberals who think the God of the Hebrews was basically the same thing or evolved from the "'El" of the Canaanites as seen in the Ugaritic pantheon, including false gods condemned in the Bible. Their version of "'El" got drunk and struggled in his own excrement. In spite of the similarity of the name, this is not the God of the Bible.

But some people like to point to pagan rituals and see, "This is similar to what the Bible teaches" and make the false gods out to be the same as the true.

And this is the same sort of dark, unChristian thinking that would try to equate the ramblings of the pagans with the speaking in tongues of the Bible.
 

presidente

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Tongues and the Mystery Religions of Corinth

H. Wayne House

Tongues and the Mystery Religions of Corinth

This has some bits of history in it. But I don't know why any Christian would endorse these views. For example,
Possibly Paul spoke of these mysteries when he wrote that "one who speaks in a tongue…speaks mysteries" (1 Cor 14:2). If this is not an allusion to mystery terminology, it is certainly not a commendation from the apostle.
Paul always uses the term for 'mystery' in a positive sense. He uses it to refer to the mystery of Christ elsewhere. If he doesn't mean it in some deep, spiritual sense, then a few verses later, he argues that if you speak in tongues, you will be a barbarian to other people. (One theory for the origin of 'Barbarian is that they were presented as saying 'bar bar', an imitation of foreigners who spoke a gibberish-sounding foreign language and did not speak Greek.)

The darkness of some commentaries is disturbing. Look at this quote from the article

Rather than speaking immediately against their practice in the meetings, he desired to find a common ground of departure, endeavoring to bring them to his position at the end. This procedure was recognized by Chadwick.
  • The entire drift of the argument of 1 Cor. xii—xiv {1 Cor 12—1 Cor 14} is such as to pour a douche of ice-cold water over the whole practice. But Paul could hardly have denied that the gift of tongues was a genuine supernatural charisma without putting a fatal barrier between himself and the Corinthian enthusiasts…. [for] the touchstone of soundness in the eyes of those claiming to be possessed by the Spirit was whether their gift was recognized to be a genuine work of God. To deny this recognition was to prove oneself to be altogether lacking in the Spirit. That Paul was fully aware of this issue appears not only from 1 Cor ii.14—15 {1 Cor 2}, but also from 1 Cor xiv.37—8 {1 Cor 14}, a masterly sentence which has the effect of brilliantly forestalling possible counter-attack at the most dangerous point, and indeed carries the war into the enemy camp. To have refused to recognize the practice as truly supernatural would have been catastrophic. Paul must fully admit that glossolalia is indeed a divine gift; but, he urges, it is the most inferior of all gifts. But Paul does more than admit it. He asserts it: eucaristo to theo, panton humon mallon glossais lalo (xiv 18 {1 Cor 14:18}). No stronger assertion of his belief in the validity of this gift of the Spirit could be made; and in the context it is a master touch which leaves the enthusiasts completely outclassed and outmaneuvered on their own ground.42
This quote reminds me of the fact that Paul said that those people who claimed that he taught 'let us do evil that good may come'...that their damnation was just. Here, this author presents Paul as being dishonest and cowardly, not standing up for truth, and allowing outright pagan activity in the church. I see Paul as bold, on page after page of scripture. Even as an unbeliever, he appears to have been quite bold. Why would he warn Corinthians about idolatry in chapter 10, but be soft on paganism in the church?

And it is really awful nonsense to think that interpretations of pagan tongues are going to build up the church.

Some Bible commentators don't really believe the Bible. They don't think that the apostles taught the truth. They don't look at the teachings of the New Testament as inspired writings from God. They look at them as some kind of historical text, maybe, if that. They don't see the text as profitable for doctrine in the historical sense, the way the text was viewed since the early church. We need to be wary of such commentaries, including blogs and websites.

Basically, if we believed this commentary, we'd have to conclude that Paul was a liar. He said to the man speaking in tongues 'for thou verily giveth thanks well, but the other is not edified.' If Paul thought that this speaking in tongues was some kind of useless gibberish, he'd be lying to say the man gave thanks well. If he thought it was a demon-inspired rant, that would not only be lying, but it would be even more immoral for him to allow such a thing.

If speaking in tongues involved a supernatural speech in a real language, then every such utterance required a direct miracle by God. This would mean, in the case of the Corinthians, that God was working a miracle at the wrong time and wrong place! He was causing that which He was directing the Apostle Paul to curtail.40

This sort of thinking is hard for some people to wrap their minds around, this stewardship of spiritual gifts. But look at Elijah. On Mt. Carmel, he called fire down from heaven. After, that, he did it over and over again. The king sent soldiers to him, he called down fire. He did this until one begged for mercy and the Lord told Elijah not to be afraid. He went to the king.

It is clear from I Corinthians 14 that we are talking about a genuine gift of tongues. The individual has some control over it. He could choose to give thanks well in tongues, but others would not be edified. So he could also choose to pray with the understanding so others could benefit instead.

This link you pointed us to, zone, shows the rational behind those who take this perverse view of the scriptures.

What about you, zone? Do you think I Corinthians 14 is a lie that Paul was writing in a cowardly manner because he did not care to write down truth in scripture, or do you take the chapter as Biblical truth written by a faithful minister of the Gospel?
 
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VCO

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I certainly works, all of his posts are gone.
I do not like getting old. I make more typos, AND when I proof read, I read what I meant to type. :(

That should have read:

"It certainly works, all of his posts are gone."

Which was a reference to adding someone to the ban list.
 

VCO

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I do not like getting old. I make more typos, AND when I proof read, I read what I meant to type. :(

That should have read:

"It certainly works, all of his posts are gone."

Which was a reference to adding someone to the ban list.
There I go again, that should have read "ignore list".

Anyone besides me, that hates the 5 minute edit rule?
 

Cee

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May 14, 2010
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All the research in the world, and changing of terms in Scripture, doesn't take away from the simple easy to understand Scripture that so many willfully ignore.

Do not forbid tongues
No one understands tongues

Those 2 Scriptures invalidate everything contrary in this thread.
 

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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All the research in the world, and changing of terms in Scripture, doesn't take away from the simple easy to understand Scripture that so many willfully ignore.

Do not forbid tongues
No one understands tongues

Those 2 Scriptures invalidate everything contrary in this thread.
And yet proper context refutes everything you claim to be true about tongues today.

Jesus wept. Clearly scripture but without context it means anything the listener chooses.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
The idea that speaking in tongues mimics pagan practices is a made-up idea that certain anti-spiritual-gifts preachers and VCO promote.
according to historians, theologians and anthropologist the Ecstatic language was very common in the Greek, Phoenician, Babylonian cultures. the greeks got it from the phoenicians. it was most common among the phoenicians, they were the ancesters of the canaanites and still practiced the same dark occult rituals of their canaanite ancesters. according to our bible canaan was cursed.

glossolalia (n.) repetitive nonmeaningful speech (especially that associated with a trance state or religious fervor)

Jesus - Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
 
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If you look back over the 20 plus pages of this thread, you'll probably find several occasions where I point out what happened in Acts 2. If you will notice, the part you bolded actually argues against your own case. They spoke of the wonderful works of God. You even said glorifying God. It does NOT say that they preached the Gospel. Peter had to actually preach for the people to understand and be saved. It does not say that Peter spoke in tongues. Instead, he proclaimed the Gospel to them.

Do you think the disciples were preaching the Gospel in tongues? What would be the justification for this idea? The text doesn't say it. I'm not saying God couldn't do that. But the Bible doesn't teach that is the purpose of speaking in tongues or give any example of it the Gospel being explained in tongues. Why make a doctrine out of what the text does NOT say instead of what it does say?



Sorry, I just don't think posters on this forum have the authority to decide what the purpose of tongues was at Pentecost apart from what God has revealed, yourself included. The Bible does not teach that the purpose of tongues at Pentecost was to preach the Gospel. It did gather attention, and then Peter preached the Gospel and that is how people were able to be saved.

The Bible says that God hath chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. It does not say that God has chosen speaking in tongues to save them that believe.

Basically, what I am saying is let's stick with the text of scripture.[/SIZE]
For goodness sake. I wasn't implying that Peter preached in tongues. Peter explained what the tongues at pentecost were ... the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy ... "this is that" etc. The tongues glorifying God and being heard in every varied language were a sign of God's Holy Spirit within the believers present ... and were a sign to the unbelieving Jews present ... for the cause and furtherance of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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All the research in the world, and changing of terms in Scripture, doesn't take away from the simple easy to understand Scripture that so many willfully ignore.

Do not forbid tongues
No one understands tongues

Those 2 Scriptures invalidate everything contrary in this thread.

What you are not understanding, is we DO NOT consider the Charismatic tongues to be anything more than a counterfeit or imitation of the genuine GIFT OF TONGUES, which is what that verse you quoted is referring to. SO WE ARE OBEDIENT TO THAT VERSE because our SPIRIT led understanding is ONLY the TONGUES used by the Apostles, where unbelieving JEWS heard ever word in their own dialect, complete with their native accent, IS THE REAL McCOY.

OUR BELIEFS AND UNDERSTANDINGS are that JESUS Himself FORBID the ecstatic utterance style of tongues, when HE SAID:

Matthew 6:7-10 (HCSB)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] When you pray, don’t babble like the idolaters, since they imagine they’ll be heard for their many words.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Don’t be like them, because your Father knows the things you need before you ask Him.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] “Therefore, you should pray like this: Our Father in heaven, Your name be honored as holy.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (ESV)
20 O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called “knowledge,”
21 for by professing it some have swerved from the faith. Grace be with you.


I respect your right to believe differently, and it does not bother me that in this most minor of all the gifts, our understandings are the opposite. PLEASE RESPECT OUR RIGHT TO HONOR THE HOLY SCRIPTURES THE WAY THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS LED US TO UNDERSTAND THEM, EVEN THO IT IS OPPOSITE OF YOURS ON THIS MOST MINOR SUBJECT.
 
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presidente

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according to historians, theologians and anthropologist the Ecstatic language was very common in the Greek, Phoenician, Babylonian cultures. the greeks got it from the phoenicians. it was most common among the phoenicians, they were the ancesters of the canaanites and still practiced the same dark occult rituals of their canaanite ancesters. according to our bible canaan was cursed.
If what they were doing was talking in a demonized state, why would they have to get it from different cultures, and not directly from demons. This is clearly not the same thing as speaking in tongues, which is a gift of the Spirit.

glossolalia (n.) repetitive nonmeaningful speech (especially that associated with a trance state or religious fervor)
If someone repeats something in a foreign language I don't know, it is repetitive and not meaningful to me. Speaking in tongues is not necessarily repetitive. Some languages do have some repetition to them, though, including morphemes and grammatical features that come up over and over again.

Biblical glossolalia is not the same thing as 'secular academic' glossolalia. I know one PhD grad who writes about the issue and uses 'xenoglossaic glossolalia' to indicate that he is referring to Biblical tongues so that those who know the academic terminology will know what he means.

You mentioned religious fervor. Other posters say 'ecstasy'. 'Ecstatic utterances' is not an accurate description of Christian speaking in tongues. This is something that can be done when someone is calm. Certain groups of Pentecostals in particular have a very exuberant culture and encourage it. They encouraging shouting and other things found in the Psalms. Some of the Pentecostals from Holiness backgrounds from the Appalachian region are like this. The Assemblies of God had founders from Baptist, CMA, and various independent groups that joined together. My experience with them is that they are a bit more 'tame' emotionally, or can be, but it depends on what part of the country you are in. A lot of times, those who speak in tongues really loud also pray in English loud in the churches that promote emotional 'fervor.'

But that is not the same thing as ecstasy. If falling into a trance and having a vision counts as 'ecstasy' then both Peter and Paul experienced it, and it would not be wrong to speak in tongues or prophesy in such a state. If it is not an appropriate term for the trances in which they had visions, then we should be careful with the term.

Montanus was criticized and accused of falling into a frenzy that was contrary to church tradition. If you read Eusebius, critics rejected his prophesying, but not the prophesying of the church. After he and his two female coworkers died died, the argument the church have against the Montanists was that the church still had prophesying, but Montanus did not.

Jesus - Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
If you go back through the thread, I've posted sources on the difficulty of translating battalogeo. I discussed this with VCO, who blocked me after I repeatedly pointed out how his stances contradicted scripture and asked for support for his assertions for such things as his definition of battalogeo. His contention was that it was a kind of pagan gibberish. But that would be odd to think that the ecstatic speech of the priests was the norm for pagan prayer. Why would people go to the Oracle at Delphi, someone certain of those who argue for this stance associate this type of speech with, if every single run-of-the-mill pagan fell into an ecstasy when he prayed?

Another belief is that pagans prayed long incantations or long prayers to invoke whatever false deities they were praying to to try to persuade them to hear and answer. The verse connects the idea with 'much speaking.'
 

presidente

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For goodness sake. I wasn't implying that Peter preached in tongues. Peter explained what the tongues at pentecost were ... the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy ... "this is that" etc. The tongues glorifying God and being heard in every varied language were a sign of God's Holy Spirit within the believers present ... and were a sign to the unbelieving Jews present ... for the cause and furtherance of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sorry if I misunderstood. I mixed your argument up with another poster's while I was posting. In I Corinthians 14, the sign to unbelievers has to do with an unbeliever rejecting speaking in tongues.

 
E

ElMagnifico

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GLOSSOLALIA IS WRONG
 

presidente

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That is one of the better ones that I had found too. I am especially impressed at how well they documented their resources and findings at the end of that page.
This explains a lot. The author lists a lot of sources. But it seems the theory that gets the most emphasis has Paul acting like a coward and deceiving people into thinking that tongues is real, when it is really a pagan practice, so he doesn't lose his audience.

If you guys think Paul did that in the pages of the Bible, then why don't you do the same? If you think tongues in the churches is fake, why don't you do like you think Paul did and pretend you don't think that way so you can have an audience among those who believe in it?

Is Paul's teaching on salvation the same thing, just Paul being a coward and pretending to believe something he does not? How many other scriptures would you treat that way?

That is not a Christian way of interpreting the Bible. That's the way secular pagans do it.

It's also sophistry. It's arguing that Paul believed contrary to what what he wrote in the Bible. Some 'theologians' try to be too clever.