JW, Mormons, and the Catholic Church

[garee]

A little leaven spoils the bread Then you have more than RCs to worry about among the trinitarian churches.

Three plus the Catholics Mother Queen of heaven makes four. Add the 3500 and rising, picking up speed as available disembodied workers with a familiar spirits ,that the non venerable pew Catholics must call call patron saints you have a legion of gods.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

Three plus the Catholics Mother Queen of heaven makes four. Add the 3500 and rising, picking up speed as available disembodied workers with a familiar spirits ,that the non venerable pew Catholics must call call patron saints you have a legion of gods.

Of the things you've mentioned in this post, only the first issue about Mary is familiar to me.

I agree that too much emphasis is placed on Mary. I agree that she is given more prominence than she should get. I agree that too many RCs look to her more than the Godhead.

RCs are trinitarians, nonetheless. Can't say the same about JWs or Mormons, which RCs were improperly lumped with.

Concerning the information in your posted excluding the bit about Mary, can you source that from a RC site? Not a RC-hate site.

 

[MacBestus]

Of the things you've mentioned in this post, only the first issue about Mary is familiar to me.

I agree that too much emphasis is placed on Mary. I agree that she is given more prominence than she should get. I agree that too many RCs look to her more than the Godhead.

RCs are trinitarians, nonetheless. Can't say the same about JWs or Mormons, which RCs were improperly lumped with.

Concerning the information in your posted excluding the bit about Mary, can you source that from a RC site? Not a RC-hate site.

Not all believers are Trinitarian. This is a meat issue not a milk issue. Plenty of those who walked with messiah did not understand the trinity (i speak of the larger group not the 12) were they not saved?

I do not think the trinity belief or unbelief to be a salvation issue.

Yet so much internecine fighting has happened over it. And here on this thread we see those who say nontrinitarians are unsaved or heretics or damned or whatever...

You will have to show me chapter and verse on that judgement criteria...

 

[Awakened]

Each person is born into a social and cultural setting—family, community, social class, language, religion—and eventually develops many social connections.
Throughout most of human history, people have been almost certain to live and die in the class into which they were born.

I've found this to be true with most people's religious beliefs. For example, I've met a lot of members of the Mormon church and found that the reason they believe what they do is because their parents and grandparents are also Mormon. They have never known anything different and some of the people in whom they recruit into their church have no knowledge of truth and are taught to believe the same as they do. (Just my experience.)

 

[Stephen63]

The Roman Catholic Church is the author of so many abuses against Christianity, and has attempted to rewrite history to make herself exist as if from the time of Christ when in actual fact the Roman Catholic Church did not come into being until the fourth century.The RCC elevates its manmade traditions above the revealed written Word of God. Some examples:

God several times throughout Scripture says He will not share His glory,
while Catholics glorify, venerate, and adore Mary. Jesus did not once in
Scripture address Mary as His mother, but Catholics call her the mother
of humanity, and as if that were not enough, the queen of heaven.

Jesus said that anyone who did the will of God was His mother, His brother,
His sister. Jesus never elevated Mary above others, but Catholics feel a need
to not just elevate Mary above others, but they put her on a par with Jesus in
terms of His sinlessness, (do you really think that she needed to be sinless so
that Jesus Christ could be sinless?).

They are forced by so-called infallible papal decree to accept the Marian dogmas
of her bodily assumption and immaculate conception, neither of which have any
basis whatsoever in Scripture.

Jesus told us to pray to our Father in heaven, yet they pray to Mary, because
their popes tell them to despite what Jesus explicitly instructed.

Scripture clearly states that there is one intercessor between God and man,
yet their popes, bishops, priests, parishioners etc, will tell you to pray to Mary,
and other dead people, for intercession. They fault those who do as Jesus
suggested, while they disobey Him to follow someone else instead.

We see nothing in Scripture to endorse her bodily assumption, her perpetual virginity
(Jesus had siblings after all, two of whom have books in the Bible!), her immaculate
conception. We see no need to pray to her, or any ability on her part, as dead as she
is believed to be, to intercede on our behalf against the explicit words of Jesus in Scripture.

Within Catholicism, there is a drive to define a new Marian dogma in which
Catholics, as a matter of faith, would be obliged to accept: 1) Mary participates
in redemption with Jesus Christ; 2) grace is granted by Jesus only through the
intercession of Mary; and 3) all prayers from the faithful must flow through
Mary, who brings them to the attention of her Son.

Scripture also tells us not to call anyone Father but God, while
they call many men "father" and blindly follow them.

They believe that a fallible man is the Rock that Jesus is building His Church on,
not a confession of faith divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, despite
a plethora of Scriptures that attest to the fact that God is the sole Rock
of our salvation.

They teach purgatory, and many other things neither the apostles nor Jesus
ever taught. For instance, they claim priests must be celibate, when they were
not in the early church. Another example would be infant baptism, nowhere
promoted in Scripture.They burned people at the stake for daring to read the Bible,
which is what Scripture tells us to do. Despite all this, and more, the Catholic Church
considers herself the only valid expression of the community of God.

Might I add to your good post that the RCC is delving more & more into mysticism & Babylonian religion?

 

[prove-all]

[h=3]Revelation 18:4 (KJV)[/h]

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people,

that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.​

 

[Stephen63]

The JW Bible (New World Translation) says Jesus was a god, they do not identify Him as God, but another god and so wouldn't that mean they are polytheistic?

The New World Translation is unique in one thing – it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group's doctrine. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Society realized that their beliefs contradicted Scripture. So, rather than conforming their beliefs to Scripture, they altered Scripture to agree with their beliefs.

This one I can't agree with, though you have a good argument.

The Bishop's Bible & the 1611 KJV have very strong leanings toward the church of England because of the control & interference of the Archbishop of Canterbury, who oversaw both projects.

 

[bluto]

Not all believers are Trinitarian. This is a meat issue not a milk issue. Plenty of those who walked with messiah did not understand the trinity (i speak of the larger group not the 12) were they not saved?

I do not think the trinity belief or unbelief to be a salvation issue.

Yet so much internecine fighting has happened over it. And here on this thread we see those who say nontrinitarians are unsaved or heretics or damned or whatever...

You will have to show me chapter and verse on that judgement criteria...

Here's a little meat for you mac? The main issue in all of this is not the Trinity but rather, "Who is Jesus Christ?" This is based on what Jesus said to His disciples at Matthew 16:13-19, specfically what Peter said at vs16, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Now, the word Trinity was coined by Tertullian about 100 and some years later which obviously refers to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who are identifed in the Bible as God. In other words, there are only three "Persons" in the Bible that are identified as God.

You should know that I do not believe the Trinity is a requirement for salvation. It is the "RESULT" of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. And of course we all know that God the Father is God. Please read Romans 8:9-11.

So my question for you mac, does the Bible clearly identify all three persons of the Trinity as God? I should also note that the word "trinity" is a word of convience because when it is used we know were talking about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is anothe issue to deal with and that is when you ask people, "Who is Jesus Christ" they will say 99% of the time He is the Son of God. But what does it mean that He is the Son of God? Hope this helps and if you have questions I will be happy to answer them.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[MacBestus]

Here's a little meat for you mac? The main issue in all of this is not the Trinity but rather, "Who is Jesus Christ?" This is based on what Jesus said to His disciples at Matthew 16:13-19, specfically what Peter said at vs16, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Now, the word Trinity was coined by Tertullian about 100 and some years later which obviously refers to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who are identifed in the Bible as God. In other words, there are only three "Persons" in the Bible that are identified as God.

You should know that I do not believe the Trinity is a requirement for salvation. It is the "RESULT" of salvation, for you cannot know Jesus Christ and somehow miss the
fact that He is God. You cannot have experienced the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and somehow miss that He is God. And of course we all know that God the Father is God. Please read Romans 8:9-11.

So my question for you mac, does the Bible clearly identify all three persons of the Trinity as God? I should also note that the word "trinity" is a word of convience because when it is used we know were talking about the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is anothe issue to deal with and that is when you ask people, "Who is Jesus Christ" they will say 99% of the time He is the Son of God. But what does it mean that He is the Son of God? Hope this helps and if you have questions I will be happy to answer them.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I dont want to engage in a trinity debate from either side. I have no dog in the fight.

My comment was an admonishment to those who appear to be using trintarian belief to determine salvation. There is no verse back up for that.

I am sure you can find someone to engage in this if you want to debate. I just am not interested in the debate.

I have no questions for you on your belief or what tertullian said.

If the trinity was important to believe in or deny scripture would have made this clear. This makes it specious, or at least another and less important issue to divide us.

The JW deny the diety of Messiah. That is a problem. But belief in the trinity just is not something we should be divided over. It just does not have the scriptural prominence for it. Tertulian brought it up for the first time in the second century. And no one else was interested until the fourth or fifth century if i remember correctly...seminary was a long time ago.

We have enough problems being one body without letting this divide us. Or judging each other over it. So unless you have the verses that prove it matters... I am disengaging.

 

[bluto]

Well mac, you are in debate since your the one who said the following: "Not all believers are Trinitarian. This is a meat issue not a milk issue. Plenty of those who walked with messiah did not understand the trinity (i speak of the larger group not the 12) were they not saved?

I do not think the trinity belief or unbelief to be a salvation issue.

Yet so much internecine fighting has happened over it. And here on this thread we see those who say nontrinitarians are unsaved or heretics or damned or whatever...

You will have to show me chapter and verse on that judgement criteria..."

I responded to what you said and now you said, "I don't have a dog in this fight?" First of all no one is "fighting," were discussing the issue which YOU brought up. I gave you my reasons by using the Bible and ask you a simple question which now your making up excuses when you said, "we have enough problems, division and judging. Who's judging, certaintly not me.

I can see your not familar with the Apostle Peter's admontion at 1 Peter 3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS BEING READY, to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an ACCOUNT for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence." So if a jw or mormon ask you about the trinity, what are you going to tell them? " I am disengaging."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[MacBestus]

Well mac, you are in debate since your the one who said the following: "Not all believers are Trinitarian. This is a meat issue not a milk issue. Plenty of those who walked with messiah did not understand the trinity (i speak of the larger group not the 12) were they not saved?

I do not think the trinity belief or unbelief to be a salvation issue.

Yet so much internecine fighting has happened over it. And here on this thread we see those who say nontrinitarians are unsaved or heretics or damned or whatever...

You will have to show me chapter and verse on that judgement criteria..."

I responded to what you said and now you said, "I don't have a dog in this fight?" First of all no one is "fighting," were discussing the issue which YOU brought up. I gave you my reasons by using the Bible and ask you a simple question which now your making up excuses when you said, "we have enough problems, division and judging. Who's judging, certaintly not me.

I can see your not familar with the Apostle Peter's admontion at 1 Peter 3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS BEING READY, to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an ACCOUNT for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence." So if a jw or mormon ask you about the trinity, what are you going to tell them? " I am disengaging."

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I would tell them the same thing i will tell you. It is a silly issue that argumentative blokes like to get cheeky about. That because there is so little concerning it they do not have to learn very much to get involved.

Noise is all this issue is.

 

[maxwel]

I am none of the above but I know people from all three and they all believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and try to serve him Faithfully

Evanwood,

You created a thread to discuss the salvation of JWs, Mormons, and Catholics.
You then stated, above, that you aren't affiliated with any of these groups.

For purposes of disclosure, and transparency in debate, would you please tell us what denomination, or organization, you're affiliated with?

Thank you.
Max

 

[notuptome]

I have heard that Mary in addition to being the queen of heaven is now the queen of television. Still trying to figure that one out.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[bluto]

I would tell them the same thing i will tell you. It is a silly issue that argumentative blokes like to get cheeky about. That because there is so little concerning it they do not have to learn very much to get involved.

Noise is all this issue is.

You just gave me a completly "asinine" answer and it also tells me you don't love people in the cults for the sake of Jesus Christ. There is nothing "silly" about it unless your Biblically illiterate (which you are) because you can not defend a valid Biblical teaching as the trinity. And btw, this is "NOT" some little issue as you say. It happens to be the most written about theological/doctrinal teaching you will encounter with the cults and especially with unitarians. And the only noise I hear is a big blast of hot air from you, bloke!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[resurrection33]

You logic is a little flawed because it does matter what others believe even though they may say they love the Lord with all their hearts, mind, and souls etc. What matters is what they teach which should/compared and tested by what the Bible teaches.

So here, let me help you out a with a cartoon of what Mormons believe that I saw many many years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q6brMrFw0E If you want I can also supply what the JW's teach or you can do your own homework and find out for yourself. PS: I think you have to start the video from the beginning, plus there is an extended version of the video.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

On the other hand, a person who fails to love the Lord with all their hearts, minds, and souls, and love their neighbor as themselves, might have some unpleasant surprises awaiting them.

 

[Mishah]

On the other hand, a person who fails to love the Lord with all their hearts, minds, and souls, and love their neighbor as themselves, might have some unpleasant surprises awaiting them.

Wisely said.

 

[MacBestus]

You just gave me a completly "asinine" answer and it also tells me you don't love people in the cults for the sake of Jesus Christ. There is nothing "silly" about it unless your Biblically illiterate (which you are) because you can not defend a valid Biblical teaching as the trinity. And btw, this is "NOT" some little issue as you say. It happens to be the most written about theological/doctrinal teaching you will encounter with the cults and especially with unitarians. And the only noise I hear is a big blast of hot air from you, bloke!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I should have known you would be an antagonistic fellow by your use of the bully boy from Thimble Theater as a persona.

That being said I suppose I shall have to reply to your troll.

For this bit I will put what you said in quotes and reply.


You said:
"I responded to what you said and now you said, "I don't have a dog in this fight?" First of all no one is "fighting,""

Of course. You just take offense and go on offense. No fighting...yeah?

You continue:
"were discussing the issue which YOU brought up."

Actually I did not bring up Trinitarian belief as a measure of salvation... I did denounce it however as not being a salvation issue. This by the fact that I use scripture as a metric and not the writings of "church fathers"

You go on:
"I gave you my reasons by using the Bible"

Actually you invoked tertullian. And gave this verse:

Romans 8:9**But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

*10**And if Christ*be*in you, the body*is*dead because of sin; but the Spirit*is*life because of righteousness.

*11**But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

As proof of the trinity. Do I even need comment?

You continue;
"And ask you a simple question which now your making up excuses when you said, "we have enough problems, division and judging."

I have made no excuse. I said that the most divisive bit of theory is not worth arguing over as the bible does not make it a large issue neither should we. And for 400+ years of original Christianity, believers seemed to agree.

You say:
" Who's judging, certaintly not me.*"

Really? Do you know what judging means? Your posts about this are redolent with judgement.

You go on:"I can see your not familar with the Apostle Peter's admontion at 1 Peter 3:15, "but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, ALWAYS BEING READY, to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an ACCOUNT for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."

My hope has nothing to do with the Trinity or individual deity. It has to do with the Grace of our Father earned through the sacrifice of his only Begotten Son our Messiah. That is what the bible tell me. Your gentleness and reverence however is an inspiration.

You go on;" So if a jw or mormon ask you about the trinity, what are you going to tell them? " I am disengaging."*"

i will answer him as I already mentioned.

You then say:
"You just gave me a completly "asinine" answer and it also tells me you don't love people in the cults."

I gave you an informed an honest answer. I don't need to impress you. I love all people enough to not saddle them with something as divisive and unprovable as the trinity as law or as a measure of the saved,as you alluded to in one post. I even love the people in your cult. Whatever cult it is.

You then continue (one can only imagine flecks of spittle flying onto your screen as you scream.) "for the sake of Jesus Christ. There is nothing "silly" about it unless your Biblically illiterate (which you are)."

I actually have two doctorates in this book. One from one of the most prestigious seminaries in the world. I also have been studying and teaching the bible for around 40 years. Not to toot my own shophar. my ordination many years ago was actually in the line of Peter so if I were to Join the RCC I would be eligible for Pope. Isn't that a hoot.

You go on:
" because you can not defend a valid Biblical teaching as the trinity."

It is not whether I can or not, but whether I will or not. And not all believers find it valid. Which was my original point. This issue has arguably cost more lives in Christian on Christian war than any other.

You continue:"And btw, this is "NOT" some little issue as you say. It happens to be the most written about theological/doctrinal teaching you will encounter with the cults and especially with unitarians."

Ok. And I would be as little impressed with their side as I am with yours. And say much the same to them as to you. If YHWH wanted us to care so very much there would be a chapter in Torah. If Messiah thought this such an important issue the apostles would have told us. A parable would be there. A paragraph in an epistle?

You finish with:
"And the only noise I hear is a big
blast of hot air from you, bloke!*"

Well done! I have never seen the word bloke used as an insult before.
I know you by your fruit. I forgive you and love you. And I apologize for not getting excited about your pet dogma and refusing to add to the scriptures or damn my brothers for it

Peace be with you.

 

[bluto]

First of all mac, just because I use the name "bluto" does not make me a bully. In like manner me calling you mac does not make you macaroni & cheese. I also explained why Tertullian coined the word just for informational purposes only. I then gave you Romans 8:9-11 for a reason which is to demonstrate the fact that you cannot experience the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and not miss the fact that Jesus Christ is God Almighty.

Wow, you really perked my ears with this statement of yours: "I love all people enough to not saddle them with something as divisive and unprovable as the trinity as law or as a measure of the saved,as you alluded to in one post. I even love the people in your cult. Whatever cult it is." Really! You don't believe the trinity can be proved and it's divisive to boot?

This in spite of the fact you have "two" doctorates from one of the most prestigious seminaries in the world. Which one might that be mac? And btw, that "book" you mentioned is not just a book, it's a collection 66 books spanning thousands of years and each one of them the writers as well as others that are written about have had an experience with the living God.

Now, little ole me doesn't have any degrees and I've been a Christian for about 54 years and I'm willing to debate you anytime on any Christian site on the Trinity being a Biblical doctrinal teaching. What I'm saying is I can by deduce the truth about the nature of God by resolving what would otherwise be gross contradictions in the Bible. I can tell this is the problem you are having otherwise you would not have made the statement that the trinity is divisive and cannot be proved. A lot of "amtaeurs" have that problem because they don't know their Bible. Lastly, I don't have any "pet" dogmas nor am I involved in any cults.

IN GOD THE SON
bluto

 

[pottersclay]

Plus the fact that the Catholic clergy wear big hats that look silly and usually don't go with the rest of the outfit.
They shout out words like b2 0 64 n38 which are not found in the bible but everyone pretends to agree like a sudden epiphany and yell out bingo....what ever that means.
They dress up like birds such as penguin and cardinals for what ever reason.

 

[MacBestus]

First of all mac, just because I use the name "bluto" does not make me a bully. In like manner me calling you mac does not make you macaroni & cheese. I also explained why Tertullian coined the word just for informational purposes only. I then gave you Romans 8:9-11 for a reason which is to demonstrate the fact that you cannot experience the presense of the Holy Spirit of God and not miss the fact that Jesus Christ is God Almighty.

Wow, you really perked my ears with this statement of yours: "I love all people enough to not saddle them with something as divisive and unprovable as the trinity as law or as a measure of the saved,as you alluded to in one post. I even love the people in your cult. Whatever cult it is." Really! You don't believe the trinity can be proved and it's divisive to boot?

This in spite of the fact you have "two" doctorates from one of the most prestigious seminaries in the world. Which one might that be mac? And btw, that "book" you mentioned is not just a book, it's a collection 66 books spanning thousands of years and each one of them the writers as well as others that are written about have had an experience with the living God.

Now, little ole me doesn't have any degrees and I've been a Christian for about 54 years and I'm willing to debate you anytime on any Christian site on the Trinity being a Biblical doctrinal teaching. What I'm saying is I can by deduce the truth about the nature of God by resolving what would otherwise be gross contradictions in the Bible. I can tell this is the problem you are having otherwise you would not have made the statement that the trinity is divisive and cannot be proved. A lot of "amtaeurs" have that problem because they don't know their Bible. Lastly, I don't have any "pet" dogmas nor am I involved in any cults.

IN GOD THE SON
bluto

I hope you feel better now. Thank you for illustrating the divisiveness of trinity teaching. Since I have no desire for a reenactment of Athanasius vs Arius as I have already said. I have no dog in this fight. There is absolutely no importance in my mind of the concept of Individual Diety over Trinitarian Diety. And it is certainly not importanr enough to trade insults with you over it.