To all the post trib and no trib believers.

[dcontroversal]

And why must they endure this tribulation.

Jesus said, Through much tribulation we must enter the kingdom....spoken to his disciples which were saved, immersed called out and organized by Jesus Himself and identified as a CHURCH at least twice in the present tense....

The parable of the tares and wheat...God begins to move against the tares first before the angels GATHER the wheat...

Because Matthew, Mark and Luke all teach the ingathering by the angels AFTER the Great tribulation

Because if they will kill the master what will they do to the servants

Because the time is coming that the disciples will be killed by those claiming to do god service

Because the Beast/Little Horn makes war against, prevail against and overcome the saints during the GREAT TRIBULATION

Because Tribulation and wrath are two different words with two different applications and applied unto two different groups

Because The gathering together unto Christ takes place after the man of sin has been revealed and the great apostasy

Because Revelation states clearly that the saints are murdered 5th seal and Losing head for not taking the mark (saints in the N.T. are IDENTIFED with CHURCHES)

Because the resurrection/change takes place at the LAST DAY which is at the 7th trump after the GREAT TRIBULATION and PRE-WRATH (7 BOWLS) identified as WRATH in HEAVEN...at the sounding of the 7th trump TIME SHALL BE NO MORE (LAST DAY)

BECAUSE, BECAUSE, BECAUSE that is what the BIBLE teaches................

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello tanakh,

That is absolutely correct tanakh. Those who are of the "one taken," group are being compared to the wicked who were taken away in the flood. When Christ returns to end the age, according to the parable of the weeds and the tares, the angels will go out and will first gather the weeds (one taken) and bring them to Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword, where the birds that will have been gathered will eat their flesh.

 

[PlainWord]

The dispensational distinctions made between the three terms referring to Christ’s return are simply untenable (see Boettner, 1957, pp. 163-165). Dispensationalists assert that the “coming” (parousia) in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 refers to the “Rapture.” Yet the same word is used in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 to speak of Jesus coming “with” His saints and therefore coincides with the dispensational concept of the “Appearing” or “Revelation” seven years after the “Rapture.”
Dispensationalists apply 2 Thessalonians 2:8 to the “Antichrist” and therefore must understand this verse as a reference to the “Appearing” (epiphaneia). Yet the verse uses the expression “the manifestation (brightness—epiphaneia) of His coming (parousia).” Thus the term “coming” is used in the New Testament to refer to both dispensational concepts of the “Rapture” and the “Appearing,” and the two expressions are even combined in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 to refer to one and the same event.

The term “Revelation” (apokalupsis) in 1 Corinthians 1:7 is descriptive of what the dispensationalists call the “Rapture” since Christians await it. But in 2 Thessalonians 1:7, it clearly refers to the “Appearing” (epiphaneia). The term “appearing” (epiphaneia) is used in 1 Timothy 6:14 as the event that terminates Christian activity on Earth and thus fits the “Rapture” concept. But in 2 Timothy 4:1, the reference to judgment fits the “Appearing.” Paul stated: “Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing” (2 Timothy 4:8). Observe that dispensationalists would have Paul translated into heaven at the “Rapture” before he receives his crown of righteousness—which he says he will receive at Jesus’ “appearing” (epiphaneia).

In view of these observations, it is evident that the three words relating to Christ’s return are used in the New Testament synonymously and interchangeably. The New Testament simply makes no distinction between the coming of the Lord for His saints (“Rapture”) and the coming of the Lord with His saints (“Appearing” or “Revelation”). The dispensational dichotomy is not supported by the language of the New Testament.

 

[PlainWord]

Additionally, if Christians are to be removed seven years before the “Revelation,” then no passage should admonish them to live their lives expecting to remain on Earth until the “Revelation.” However, many passages do just that. For example, in Titus 2:13, Paul refers to the “blessed hope” and the “appearing” as one and the same event, i.e., Christ’s coming. Boettner observes:

In the original Greek the two substantives hope and appearing are closely united with the common article. They are not two separate events, as if it read, “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing,” but simply, “looking for the blessed hope and appearing.” The one explains the other. “The blessed hope” of Christians is “the glorious appearing” of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ (p. 166, italics in orig.).


​

Another example is 1 Peter 2:14 and 4:13 where the grace that the Christian is to set his hope on is to be received at the revelation (apokalupsei) of Christ, at which time the Christian may rejoice. But, according to dispensationalism, the Christian may rejoice seven years earlier at the “Rapture.”

Further, the word “end” (sunteleia) means “completion, consummation, close, the full end” (Arndt and Gingrich, 1957, p. 799; Thayer, 1901, p. 606; Nicoll, n.d., 1:202; Moulton and Milligan, 1982, p. 613). Used six times in the New Testament, it refers to the end of the world (i.e., the last of life on Earth). Noted Presbyterian commentator Albert Barnes explains that the term as used in Hebrews 9:26 refers to “the last dispensation or economy; that under which the affairs of the world will be wound up” (1971, p. 215). The term parallels the expression “last days” which likewise refers to “the closing period of the world” (Barnes, 2005, p. 31). Lutheran commentator R.C.H. Lenski describes the word as “‘the completion’ when all things shall reach their goal and end” (2001, p. 538).

 

[NayborBear]

At one time, many MANY years ago, I believed there was an event called "rapture", as my parents believed. And believed this way for quite some time. But, after I was baptised, and started asking what I started asking questions about certain interpretations of the Bible, and the "church", and was told time after time, that "I/we don't HAVE to worry about it, cuz we're not going to be here!"....I found this to be nothing SHORT of a "cop-out" from actually delving into and, deeply studying the WORD!

I no longer believes in a "rapture" of ANY kind. And, methinks I have been the more blessed because of it! As if it isn't bad enough to believe that you don't have to understanf..Just believe, and yer gonna be OUTTA here, or worry your poor little hearts out to just WHEN this "event" is going to occur?....FOR WHAT PURPOSE?!?...so, you can KNOW when it's coming, and suddenly MAKE PEACE?...Or, Push yourself that much harder trying to convert someone else to Jesus?...Why does some "knowing" take up SO MUCH of people's times and energies?..Wasn't it Jesus Himself that said, the "I come like a thief in the night!?"....So, You AIN'T gonna know, and ANY knowing you THINKS you believes is just so much a deceiving of oneself, or worse..OTHERS, that, me no thinks it would look very well on one's report card!....But, I digress!

What I really wanted to say was, with the way, and speed and veracity with which Satan is hitting this 'ol world with, as he KNOWS his time is short, I wonder WHICH doctrine these these pre er mid er post tribbers shall subscribe to NOW?!?

Cuz, simply put?...If these times AIN'T "tribulation"?.........Well?...I'll kiss yer arse!

 

[ElMagnifico]

those who don't believe in the tribulation will do so once they witness it

 

[tanakh]

Hello tanakh,

That is absolutely correct tanakh. Those who are of the "one taken," group are being compared to the wicked who were taken away in the flood. When Christ returns to end the age, according to the parable of the weeds and the tares, the angels will go out and will first gather the weeds (one taken) and bring them to Armageddon where they will be killed by that double-edged sword, where the birds that will have been gathered will eat their flesh.

Im glad we agree on something! lol

 

[tanakh]

In the seven letters Jesus promises rewards for them that overcome. As Revelation deals mainly with the events of the tribulation and the second coming what are believers supposed to overcome if they are all raptured before the tribulation takes place and if this is correct why bother to write the book in the first place as it would have no relevance to the raptured church.

 

[JesusRules1]

In the seven letters Jesus promises rewards for them that overcome. As Revelation deals mainly with the events of the tribulation and the second coming what are believers supposed to overcome if they are all raptured before the tribulation takes place and if this is correct why bother to write the book in the first place as it would have no relevance to the raptured church.

I believe the 7 letters is Church history in major influence at that point in time,which they all can have some influence today,but the Roman Catholic Church does not influence like it used to with the Protestant movement,and all people involved with it.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This Church is surely going on now,and has to be a prophetic statement,for there is only one temptation that can come upon all the world,to try them that dwell upon the earth,and that is when they say Peace and safety,which is when the world comes together trying to solve their problems,and have peace,but the Bible says the saints will not be deceived by them,which Jesus pointed out He will deliver all the saints from that temptation.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.

We know that this Church is going on today more than it ever did,the last Church,with people that claim Christ heaping money,and material things,to themselves,and saying they have need of nothing,but God said they are not right with Him.

Never before in the history of the Church age has people heaped such things to themselves,and disregarded the poor,and thought godliness is gain(money,and material),where the early Church sold all they has and distributed to the poor saints.

 

[Ahwatukee]

In the seven letters Jesus promises rewards for them that overcome. As Revelation deals mainly with the events of the tribulation and the second coming what are believers supposed to overcome if they are all raptured before the tribulation takes place and if this is correct why bother to write the book in the first place as it would have no relevance to the raptured church.

Good evening tanakh,

The book of Revelation is divided up into three sections, as demonstrated when Jesus told John to "write what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the seven letters to the churches, also representing the entire church period.

what will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now" i.e. after the church period.

What is now is represented by the church period. Once the building of the church has been accomplished, the Lord will descend from heaven and gather the church. After the church has been gathered, the "what will take place later" will commence:

" And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” - Rev.4:1

Revelation 4:1 is prophetic of the church being gathered and the voice that sounds like a trumpet says " I will show you what must take place after this i.e. after the church period. I am convinced that the this voice that sounds like a trumpet is a clue which is pointing to the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thes.4:16, which is the promise of the gathering of the church.

In addition, the last time the word "church" is used is at the very end of chapter 3 and is never seen again within the narrative. The next time the church is referred is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride. But the word itself does not appear again until Rev.22:16, which is outside the narrative.

what are believers supposed to overcome if they are all raptured before the tribulation takes place

That is a fair question. Believers within those types of churches, are to overcome the things that Jesus rebuked them for within the letters. But the following is what all believers are also to overcome:

"The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts."

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."

When Jesus said "he who overcomes" he was not speaking to believers about overcoming God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for they are plagues of wrath are not meant to overcome. But what we are to overcome are the willful acts of the sinful nature, whatever they may be in each individuals life.

I hope that this sheds some light on the subject.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Im glad we agree on something! lol

I'll say Amen to that too!

 

[GaryA]

In Rev 7: 2-4 it states that the 144000 have a seal of God placed on their foreheads. In Rev 9: 3-6 it states that the Locusts are allowed to torture those of mankind that do not have the seal. Whether one believes that the 144000 are literal Jews or not the fact remains that they are on earth during the tribulation and appear to be immune to Gods judgments. ... Also how do the two witnesses manage to perform miracles for three and a half years and the so called tribulation saints get saved when the rest of the church has gone?

What you need to understand is that - in 'event' terms - the tribulation is over at the beginning of the 'trumpet' events -- ended by the two witnesses ( not Jesus ). In 'event' terms - ALL of the 'trumpets' and ALL of the 'vials' are post-tribulation - "by definition"...

I believe that the 144,000 are [ basically and essentially ] "what is left" ( of the saved ) after the tribulation.

Anyone saved after that is saved by virtue of the testimony of the two witnesses ( and the Holy Spirit, of course ).

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello NayborBear,

I'm sorry that those were the answers that you were given. The reason for any belief in God's word should be grounded in scriptural fact. My understanding of the gathering of the church comes from an in depth study of this topic. And your understanding of this should be based on the same. I would advise not to throw the topic of the gathering of the church out because of what you experienced, but study it for yourself.

Why does some "knowing" take up SO MUCH of people's times and energies?..

The gathering of the church, is a promise that was made to the disciples and to all believers, that Jesus went to the Father's house to prepare mansions, rooms, dwelling places, for all believers. And that he is coming back again to gather us and take us to those dwelling places in the Father's house. - John 14:1-3

The detailed account of when Jesus comes to gather us, is given in detail in 1 Thes.4:13-18. Regarding our being gathered, Paul said for believers to "comfort one another with these words." In writing Titus and regarding our being gathered, he call it "the blessed hope." So, as believers, we long for His appearing, for at that time is when believers will be changed into those immortal and glorified bodies and caught up with the Lord, where he will take us back to the Father's house.

As a believer in Christ, the promise is to you as well and you should also look forward to and long for the Lord's appearing. In addition, what follows the gathering of the church is the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. So, you definitely wouldn't want to miss out on being gathered, because those who are left here will be exposed to the full force of God's wrath.

Cuz, simply put?...If these times AIN'T "tribulation"?.........Well?...I'll kiss yer arse!

What you perceive as tribulation now, is nothing in comparison to what is coming. By the time the tribulation of God's wrath is over, the majority of the earth's population will have been decimated and the all human government will dismantled and that in preparation for Christ's millennial kingdom.

To understand what the coming wrath of God entails, I would suggest that you do a study on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. When and if you do, read them in the literal sense. By the time you are done reading about them, you will have an idea of the severity and magnitude of God's wrath which is going to shortly come upon this earth.

Regarding his promise to appear and gather us, Jesus said, "what I say to you, I say to all, WATCH!" So we watch and long for the fulfillment of His promise.

 

[GaryA]

What does more harm, ...

Whatever the truth - whatever the lie -- it does more harm to teach the lie and not the truth. Period.

to teach that the Lord is going to gather His church prior to His wrath

'post-trib' teaches this.

send her through is wrath and gather her afterwards?

'post-trib' does not teach this.

...

The problem is -- you cannot properly understand 'post-trib' from a 'pre-trib' perspective.

You keep making claims that 'post-trib' teaches [ certain things ] which it does not teach!!!

Why? Because you are trying to understand - and 'define' - 'post-trib' from a 'pre-trib' perspective.

Until you learn to look at 'post-trib' from the proper perspective, you will not understand it.

One of the biggest problems with expositors today, is not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

EXACTLY!!!!!

And, anyone who properly understands this will thereby also understand the difference between 'Judgment' and 'Wrath' when considering the 'seals', 'trumpets', and 'vials'.

The other is not discerning that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

This is "imaginative thinking" only, and is not in any way present in the scriptures. The 'discerning' of this idea comes straight from Satan...

It is you and others who are not believing in the Lord's promise nor believing in His word.

"Guess again..."

 

[Ahwatukee]

What you need to understand is that - in 'event' terms - the tribulation is over at the beginning of the 'trumpet' events -- ended by the two witnesses ( not Jesus ). In 'event' terms - ALL of the 'trumpets' and ALL of the 'vials' are post-tribulation - "by definition"...

I believe that the 144,000 are [ basically and essentially ] "what is left" ( of the saved ) after the tribulation.

Anyone saved after that is saved by virtue of the testimony of the two witnesses ( and the Holy Spirit, of course ).

Hello GaryA,

Forgive me, but there is nothing in the context stating that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment all take place after the tribulation. They are three sets of seven judgments and should not be separated as people keep trying to do. They will take place in chronological order (one after another) and will become worse and closer together like a woman having birth pains.

As proof of this consider the following:

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

If you will notice, the seven bowls are treated as a unit, as being the last plagues, because with them God's wrath is completed. Consequently, since these seven bowls are last, completing God's wrath, then there would have to have been wrath before them. For you can't have something that is last unless something was first or before them. The only other events before the bowls, would be the seals and the trumpets. Which would mean that they would have to come before the bowl judgments in order for the bowls to be referred to as last.

The two witnesses will be bringing their own plagues upon the earth in addition to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

ALL of the 'trumpets' and ALL of the 'vials' are post-tribulation - "by definition"...

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the tribulation of God's wrath. They are a detailed account of how God is going to carry out his wrath.

ended by the two witnesses ( not Jesus )

Once again, there is no scriptural support that the tribulation is ended by the two witnesses. It's pure conjecture! It is the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age which ends the tribulation period, as demonstrated in the detailed account of Jesus returning to the earth in Rev.19:11-21

 

[Ahwatukee]

Whatever the truth - whatever the lie -- it does more harm to teach the lie and not the truth. Period.

Your response above did not address the claim that I brought up. By not believing in the Lord's promise to keep us out of the time of trial and not believing the scripture that states that we are no appointed to suffer wrath and not understanding that Jesus already experienced wrath for us, you are the one who is teaching the lie, a false teaching.

The meaning behind our being gathered as "the blessed hope" is because we are not appointed suffer God's coming wrath. What you and others do, is to circumvent and distort scripture, redefining what God's wrath is. That is how it is will all false teachers, they distort and circumvent scripture.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all God's wrath and will be carried out throughout that last seven year period up, with Christ returning shortly after the 7th bowl judgment. You people should not be teaching either Revelation nor end-time events.

You keep making claims that 'post-trib' teaches [ certain things ] which it does not teach!!!

Why? Because you are trying to understand - and 'define' - 'post-trib' from a 'pre-trib' perspective.

I am very familiar with the term "Post-Trib" and it doesn't take much to understand that it has to do with the church being gathered after the tribulation. The problem is that you redefine what the tribulation/wrath of God is, distorting it.

The other is that, if you understand that the wrath of God/tribulation will be in operation during that entire last seven years, then you would be putting the church through the entire wrath of God, which believers are not appointed to suffer. So, which ever way you slice it, your interpretation is distorted. The wrath of God does not take place after the tribulation. The wrath of God is the tribulation! God's tribulation of wrath, with the last 3 1/2 being the great tribulation.

[quote]And, anyone who properly understands this will thereby also understand the difference between 'Judgment' and 'Wrath' when considering the 'seals', 'trumpets', and 'vials'.[/quote]

The words wrath, judgment and plagues, are all referring to the same thing, which is God's wrath. You redefine them so that you can segregate the tribulation as one event and the seals, trumpets and bowls as another, which is your error. Below is just one proof that the words previously mentioned are used interchangeably referring to God's wrath:

I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.

Plagues = wrath

Not only this, but the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all referred to as wrath within each set. The wrath of God is going to commence after the church has been gathered. We have been redeemed, reconciled and credited with righteousness for faith in Christ. The bridegroom is not going send his bride through his wrath first and then gather her after his wrath! Logically speaking and in consideration of God's nature, what kind of blessed hope would that be, If the church was to first through God's wrath? How could we comfort one another with the promise of being gathered if we were to first be exposed to God's wrath? The church cannot be here. This is why I say, you have no idea of the severity, magnitude or timing of God's wrath. You invent a separate time of tribulation and then stick God's wrath behind that, when you should be recognizing that God's wrath will be operating throughout the entire period.

As proof of what I am telling you, when you see a political leader establish a seven year covenant with Israel, allowing them to build their temple, then know that you are have entered into the time of God's wrath.

The next event that will take place after that will be that emergence of that red horse whose rider will take peace from the earth so that men kill one another (nation shall rise against nation).

After that, the third seal/black horse which represents a coming, wide-spread famine, which results in a little bit of food being very expensive.

After that, at the 4th seal, death and Hades will be given power to kill a fourth of the earth's inhabitants.

When you see these things, then know that you have entered the time of God's wrath.

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee

The other is not discerning that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Responded to by GaryA:
This is "imaginative thinking" only, and is not in any way present in the scriptures. The 'discerning' of this idea comes straight from Satan...

The above is not imaginative thinking. It is a matter of using proper exegesis to arrive at a right conclusion. When you compare the scriptures that refer to the gathering of the church vs. the scriptures referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, it is obvious that they are two different events

Man I am tire of false teacher's who don't know that they are false teachers!

 

[PlainWord]

those who don't believe in the tribulation will do so once they witness it

Which Tribulation? This one?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains... [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Who was told to flee? I underlined it for you.

 

[PlainWord]

Jesus discusses two tribulations in Mat 24. I like to refer to them as "tribulation" small "t" and "Great Tribulation" capital "T."

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Tribulation (small "t") is promised to believers. It is persecution by the world for our faith in Jesus. The world hates us because we do not belong to this world as John teaches. We are to rejoice in this tribulation as Paul teaches at length. 75% of today's church lives in areas where tribulation is common place. This tribulation started at the Cross and continues to this day, really without break.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The GT is the one where there is much disagreement. The context is clearly ISRAEL in the passage as only those in Judea are to flee and no warning goes out to those living anywhere else. Many good Christians believe the GT happened back in AD 70 and that the many Christians living in Jerusalem at the time indeed fled when they saw the Romans coming from the north. If this view is correct then the GT is over.

Others believe that the GT is yet future and deals with the invasion of Gog in Eze 38. I have been a strong advocate for this position but am waffling a bit because the more I study the events of AD 70, the more I see that this period was undeniably the worst tribulation the state of Israel endured in her history to date.

Then others still think the GT is a period of God's wrath aimed at the unbelieving world after all believers have been raptured off the planet. They cite the seals, trumpets and bowls as GT events and view them as literal events. Using Dan 9:27 and inventing a 7 year gap, they introduce the AntiChrist from this verse and add him to Rev 13 and invent a new world-wide religion that all must follow or be killed. This last view of the "Tribulation" popularized by Hal Lindsay and others, is pure fiction. No passage in the Bible teaches this view in one coherent lesson.

Paul discusses a "Man of Sin" who appears before Christ (2 Thes 2:3). Paul gives this character several titles:

man of sin
son of perdition
lawless one

It is clear from the context that the Lord destroys this character when He returns and that He doesn't return until this character appears and claims to be above God. It is also clear from this passage that the unsaved are deceived. Many think this character was Nero, however, Nero died in AD 68 and essentially at his own hands. He was not "consume(d) with the breath of His mouth and destroy(ed) with the brightness of His coming."

So, I for one still look for the revealing of this Man of Sin whom the Lord will personally destroy. Paul makes mention of a massive deception using miracles. I can point to no figure who has done that to bolster his deity claims nor was personally killed by the Lord relative to His coming. If anyone can point out a historical event that fits, please let me know.

 

[GaryA]

Hello GaryA,

Forgive me, ...

"Yes - I forgive you -- for calling me a false teacher --- because, you do not know any better..."

 

[PlainWord]

I believe that this tribulation:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Is the same as this tribulation:

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The word, "the" in bold above is not in the original text as we see from the KJV below:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

"They come out of great tribulation" rather than "the great tribulation." To me this means they paid the ultimate price and were martyred for their faith. An estimated 50 million Christians were murdered by the Ottoman Islamic Empire from 1299 to 1922 alone. Today ISIS is carrying on the tradition of murdering Christians by the tens of thousands. We also have China, N. Korea, and communism killing Christians over the years as well as the other Islamic nations. The point is, enough Christians have been killed since the Cross to satisfy the Great Multitude shown in Rev 7.