Calvinism - Total Depravity

[Spurgeoncy]

Through Adam came sin and death.

Through Christ comes eternal life.

So Total Depravity really means that without Christ we are totally dead.

What does that really tell us? lol.

Diddly squat. It is just theological mumbo-jumbo.

 

[notmyown]

This is sop with most Calvinists. They insert their doctrine of vernacular into scripture and expect you to accept it but anybody who can read the scripture knows that the scripture does it say that we are totally depraved are there we have no ability to do good. The world is full of people who do good but are not Christians. Philippians 4:8 does not say anything about these things having to be Christian or of God. They are in and of themselves good.

of course unbelievers do 'good things'. we perceive them as such, anyway.
but God calls these good deeds filthy rags.
see Romans 3 for God's estimation of the human condition.

Phil 4:8? "Finally brothers..." he's talking to Christians there, don't you think?

 

[StanJ]

of course unbelievers do 'good things'. we perceive them as such, anyway.
but God calls these good deeds filthy rags.
see Romans 3 for God's estimation of the human condition.

Phil 4:8? "Finally brothers..." he's talking to Christians there, don't you think?

Jesus said; “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone?Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 7:7-12

Clearly we have the ability, as sinners, to do these things.
The point about what Paul was addressing in Philippians 4 were the good things he said to practice not the fact that the people were believers or not.

 

[Grandpa]

This is nonsense on many levels though.

Firstly you start with a usage of the word depravity that is so egregious it smacks of being cultic.

This specious use of language actually occurs because you are pulling a magic trick; while we get distracted with the linguistic left hand, the right hand of false logic goes to work.

So really what you are peddling is a doctrine of total sinfulness. But this is just cack, rubbish, twaddle.

You can go into many non-Christian cultures and you will find that children honour their mother and father. They therefore are partially obeying God's Law. They are therefore not "totally sinful" as you so disingenuously would put it, were you to use honest language. And the further examples are endless.

John 15:5 [FONT=&quot]I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[/FONT]Partially obeying a law is not obeying a law. We don't get credit for partially obeying laws.

So you are arguing that you are only partially depraved? You want credit for the part that is 'good'? Or did we already go over that scripture???

 

[StanJ]

4

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Partially obeying a law is not obeying a law. We don't get credit for partially obeying laws.

So you are arguing that you are only partially depraved? You want credit for the part that is 'good'? Or did we already go over that scripture???

Taking John 15:5 out of context doesn't prove anything as Jesus was speaking to his disciples not to the General Public. If you can't see the context in verses then you shouldn't quote them, but what about Matthew 13:58 & Mark 6:5-6? Why was Jesus not able to perform miracles there at will?
FYI, we are not under the law, we are under the spirit of grace.

 

[notmyown]

Jesus said; “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone?Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 7:7-12

Clearly we have the ability, as sinners, to do these things.
The point about what Paul was addressing in Philippians 4 were the good things he said to practice not the fact that the people were believers or not.

Stan, i do truly wish you well.

 

[StanJ]

Stan, i do truly wish you well.

As do I...Happy Hogmanay!

 

[garee]

Through Adam came sin and death.

Through Christ comes eternal life.

So Total Depravity really means that without Christ we are totally dead.

What does that really tell us? lol.

Diddly squat. It is just theological mumbo-jumbo.

I see that order a little differently.

Through Adam came sin and death.

So Total Depravity really means that without Christ we are totally dead.

Through Christ comes eternal life.

What does that really tell us?

A man must be born again through the incorruptible, seed Christ .

 

[Spurgeoncy]

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Partially obeying a law is not obeying a law. We don't get credit for partially obeying laws.

So you are arguing that you are only partially depraved? You want credit for the part that is 'good'? Or did we already go over that scripture???

You are confused Grandpa.

I am arguing nothing Calvinist as am not a Calvinist! You might, but not me.

Where did I talk about partially obeying a law, btw?

 

[Spurgeoncy]

I see that order a little differently.

Through Adam came sin and death.

So Total Depravity really means that without Christ we are totally dead.

Through Christ comes eternal life.

What does that really tell us?

A man must be born again through the incorruptible, seed Christ .

All TD means is that we are mortal.

Dead or totally dead - it is a meaningless distinction. When you are dead you are dead.

 

[Dino246]

All TD means is that we are mortal.

Dead or totally dead - it is a meaningless distinction. When you are dead you are dead.

It's rather humorous that you criticize others for making up definitions, and then do so yourself. Total depravity (as used in calvinism) does not mean that we are mortal; but then, I've already provided that definition (one I did not make up).

 

[StanJ]

I see that order a little differently.

Through Adam came sin and death.

So Total Depravity really means that without Christ we are totally dead.

Through Christ comes eternal life.

What does that really tell us?

A man must be born again through the incorruptible, seed Christ .

What does 'totally dead' mean to you?

 

[Grandpa]

4
Taking John 15:5 out of context doesn't prove anything as Jesus was speaking to his disciples not to the General Public. If you can't see the context in verses then you shouldn't quote them, but what about Matthew 13:58 & Mark 6:5-6? Why was Jesus not able to perform miracles there at will?
FYI, we are not under the law, we are under the spirit of grace.

There is only One that is Good and that is God. Without Christ, you can do nothing.

That's what total depravity is. Its scriptural. If you don't understand scripture then you can't see it.

No one wants to think that they aren't good and that they are powerless. So I totally understand people being against it.

2 Corinthians 12:9 [FONT=&quot]And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.[/FONT]

 

[Grandpa]

You are confused Grandpa.

I am arguing nothing Calvinist as am not a Calvinist! You might, but not me.

Where did I talk about partially obeying a law, btw?

If you click on the little blue arrow thing next to my name in your post it will take you to the post that was quoted. In that original post you will see that I quoted you. Its in your post.

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Nope, I didn't say that. You have invented something there.

 

[StanJ]

There is only One that is Good and that is God. Without Christ, you can do nothing.

That's what total depravity is. Its scriptural. If you don't understand scripture then you can't see it.

No one wants to think that they aren't good and that they are powerless. So I totally understand people being against it.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

This doesn't come anywhere close to dealing with my response to you, it's just more of your rhetoric. Try actually answering my post by addressing what I said. Jesus wasn't using this as a means to say only God is good, Jesus was using it as a means to say he was God because they were already calling him a good teacher. He was affirming his goodness but also explaining that as only God is good, based on what the of said, then they had to arrive at the conclusion that he was God.
If you don't understand that then you're basically saying that Jesus contradicted himself throughout the rest of the Gospels when showing that men had the ability to do good things. The Bible never contradicts itself so if you think there's a contradiction between verses then the problem is how you interpolate the scripture, not what the scripture says. When somebody gives you a scripture to support their point of view the proper thing to do is to address that scripture and their point of view and not ignore it by pointing out other scripture you think supports your point of view.

 

[Grandpa]

This is nonsense on many levels though.

Firstly you start with a usage of the word depravity that is so egregious it smacks of being cultic.

This specious use of language actually occurs because you are pulling a magic trick; while we get distracted with the linguistic left hand, the right hand of false logic goes to work.

So really what you are peddling is a doctrine of total sinfulness. But this is just cack, rubbish, twaddle.

You can go into many non-Christian cultures and you will find that children honour their mother and father. They therefore are partially obeying God's Law. They are therefore not "totally sinful" as you so disingenuously would put it, were you to use honest language. And the further examples are endless.

Post #279......

 

[Spurgeoncy]

Partially obeying a law is not obeying a law

No need to shout Grandpa.


The law and a law are totally different things.

How do you partially not jaywalk? Makes no sense. Please don't put words into my mouth.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Are there differing types of spiritual deaths?

 

[Cee]

I'm confused about this topic...

Jesus said even gentiles are able to love those who love them back, but what reward is there in that?

People can do good things, but that doesn't make them good.

The only one who is good is God. And Jesus is God in the flesh. And through His goodness we have access to God when we die and are reborn in Him.