Interesting messages. Some folks approach the bible is such a way that they could have Jesus return in a flying UFO if that was their desire. Folks you don't "make" the bible say something that is not literally in the bible. Someone said the church age ended before chapter 4 in Revelation. This is the human mind dreaming up something to fit an agenda and pretending it is in the bible. Can anyone READ where it says the church age ended before Rev 4? If such an idea cannot be quoted from the bible then it is not in the bible...is that hard to comprehend?
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Gary,
Explain scientifically how 1/3 of all light can literally be dimmed.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
The only way for this to happen would be a global haze in the atmosphere blocking out the light but that would only reduce the observable (from earth) light. The passage states that the celestial bodies themselves were darkened. There is no possible scientific cause that would reduce the energy of the universe by 1/3. All kinds of problems would result due to laws of conservation of energy and of planetary motion.
The more logical explanation lies here and John himself uses this symbolism in his gospel:
Matthew 5:14
“You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
John 8:12
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
John 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
Acts 13:47
For so the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
These are just some of the dozens of references to us being the "light of the world." Without us (and the HS) there would be nothing but "darkness" and evil in the world. Is there any passage that teaches a "dimming of our light?" Turns out there is:
The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...
The timing is certainly right placing this event just before the torture of those following the Beast. At least consider the figurative. All of the trumpets contain figurative symbols which have spiritual meanings and Revelation employs heavy use of OT figurative language. Just saying...
Explain scientifically how 1/3 of all light can literally be dimmed.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.
The only way for this to happen would be a global haze in the atmosphere blocking out the light but that would only reduce the observable (from earth) light. The passage states that the celestial bodies themselves were darkened. There is no possible scientific cause that would reduce the energy of the universe by 1/3. All kinds of problems would result due to laws of conservation of energy and of planetary motion.
The more logical explanation lies here and John himself uses this symbolism in his gospel:
Matthew 5:14
“You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
John 8:12
Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
John 9:5
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
Acts 13:47
For so the Lord has commanded us: ‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
These are just some of the dozens of references to us being the "light of the world." Without us (and the HS) there would be nothing but "darkness" and evil in the world. Is there any passage that teaches a "dimming of our light?" Turns out there is:
The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition...
The timing is certainly right placing this event just before the torture of those following the Beast. At least consider the figurative. All of the trumpets contain figurative symbols which have spiritual meanings and Revelation employs heavy use of OT figurative language. Just saying...
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P
My what a surprise as this thread along with many others like it end up in name calling, slander of faith, false accusation, and worst of all boasting.
Paul told us to remember we are only "grafted in"don't think yourself higher than we are.
Of all this Christianity history we bring to the table saints we are only a foot note in history, just a footnote.
So as I look back in the days of Noah which the Lord told me to do who is a foot note there? One we know little about yet would like to be , one who has the testimony that pleased God? Could it possible be Enoch.
I will come back to this thinking latter.
Saints let's get real for a moment and stop the argument on symbols, and metaphors, and concentrate on what revelation is.
As it was determined there are 2 events taking place here...a marriage for one. But what other event do you see?
Give ya a hint....Jesus fulfilled 4 out of seven now it's time to fulfill them all.
The feast days...there are 7 of them.
Passover.....his death.
Unlearned bread....when in grave.
First fruits....resurrection.
Pentecost....holy spirit sent to church.
So what's left?
Feast of trumpets.
Atonement. When they look on him that was pierced.
Tabernacle. When all nations come to worship.
What do these feast have to do with Christians....nothing...May I suggest that they already have been fulfilled for the Christian .
Trumpets....we have been warned and praise God for his grace and mercy.
Atonement....we believe Jesus is the only true way to God.
Tabernacle....if we are true believers we are found in Christ Jesus and have communion in and with him.
What's left for us....nothing .....only the promise of Jesus to come for the bride.
Is our testimony pleasing to God that that we may not see death but have everlasting life.....hope so.
And if it is like the testimony of Enoch as he walked with God what happened to him before the judgement even started?
Paul told us to remember we are only "grafted in"don't think yourself higher than we are.
Of all this Christianity history we bring to the table saints we are only a foot note in history, just a footnote.
So as I look back in the days of Noah which the Lord told me to do who is a foot note there? One we know little about yet would like to be , one who has the testimony that pleased God? Could it possible be Enoch.
I will come back to this thinking latter.
Saints let's get real for a moment and stop the argument on symbols, and metaphors, and concentrate on what revelation is.
As it was determined there are 2 events taking place here...a marriage for one. But what other event do you see?
Give ya a hint....Jesus fulfilled 4 out of seven now it's time to fulfill them all.
The feast days...there are 7 of them.
Passover.....his death.
Unlearned bread....when in grave.
First fruits....resurrection.
Pentecost....holy spirit sent to church.
So what's left?
Feast of trumpets.
Atonement. When they look on him that was pierced.
Tabernacle. When all nations come to worship.
What do these feast have to do with Christians....nothing...May I suggest that they already have been fulfilled for the Christian .
Trumpets....we have been warned and praise God for his grace and mercy.
Atonement....we believe Jesus is the only true way to God.
Tabernacle....if we are true believers we are found in Christ Jesus and have communion in and with him.
What's left for us....nothing .....only the promise of Jesus to come for the bride.
Is our testimony pleasing to God that that we may not see death but have everlasting life.....hope so.
And if it is like the testimony of Enoch as he walked with God what happened to him before the judgement even started?
Hello Samuel23,
The church age does end in chapter 4.
"And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
First, I believe this "voice that sounds like a trumpet" is not a coincidence, but is a Godly clue alerting the reader that this is significant, being synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thessalonians 1:4:16
Trumpet call of God = a voice like a trumpet saying "come up here."
Another clue, which many don't seem to think is important, is the fact that, the word Ekklesia/church after solely being used to describe believers throughout chapters 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, then word is never used again from Rev.4 onward.
In addition in Rev.1:19, John was told to write: what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. The "what is now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period and which we are still currently in, i.e. we are still in the "now." Then in Rev.4:1, John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here" and I will show you "what must take place after this" i.e. after the church period.
These spiritual truths are garnered from a deeper study of God's word. He put these clues in there to be found by those who would diligently search for these answers. Sadly though, when those people who have discovered these hidden truths, those who haven't understood reject it. God has hidden these things within his word for us to find. I've just shared a few of them with you above. So this is not from the human mind, dreaming up something to fit an agenda, but is a deeper understanding of the truths that are hidden within God's word.
Consider this: Jesus told the disciples that he was going back to his Father's house to prepare dwelling places for them and therefore the promise is for all believers. Then he said that he was going to come back to get us and take us back to those dwelling places in the Father's house. At some time this must take place and will end the church period. This is why Jesus and the apostles warn us throughout scripture to watch and be ready, because the Lord is going to come like a thief.
Once the Lord descends from heaven and gathers those who are ready, that will be the end of the church period. Those who are left here on earth are not apart of the church, though still saved through Christ, they do not belong to the church, but are referred to as saints and never as the church. From Rev.4 onward, believers are never referred to as the church. That is not coincidence, but is foretelling.
The church age does end in chapter 4.
"And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
First, I believe this "voice that sounds like a trumpet" is not a coincidence, but is a Godly clue alerting the reader that this is significant, being synonymous with the "trumpet call of God" found in 1 Thessalonians 1:4:16
Trumpet call of God = a voice like a trumpet saying "come up here."
Another clue, which many don't seem to think is important, is the fact that, the word Ekklesia/church after solely being used to describe believers throughout chapters 1 thru the very end of chapter 3, then word is never used again from Rev.4 onward.
In addition in Rev.1:19, John was told to write: what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later. The "what is now" is represented by the letters to the seven churches, which also represents the entire church period and which we are still currently in, i.e. we are still in the "now." Then in Rev.4:1, John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here" and I will show you "what must take place after this" i.e. after the church period.
These spiritual truths are garnered from a deeper study of God's word. He put these clues in there to be found by those who would diligently search for these answers. Sadly though, when those people who have discovered these hidden truths, those who haven't understood reject it. God has hidden these things within his word for us to find. I've just shared a few of them with you above. So this is not from the human mind, dreaming up something to fit an agenda, but is a deeper understanding of the truths that are hidden within God's word.
Consider this: Jesus told the disciples that he was going back to his Father's house to prepare dwelling places for them and therefore the promise is for all believers. Then he said that he was going to come back to get us and take us back to those dwelling places in the Father's house. At some time this must take place and will end the church period. This is why Jesus and the apostles warn us throughout scripture to watch and be ready, because the Lord is going to come like a thief.
Once the Lord descends from heaven and gathers those who are ready, that will be the end of the church period. Those who are left here on earth are not apart of the church, though still saved through Christ, they do not belong to the church, but are referred to as saints and never as the church. From Rev.4 onward, believers are never referred to as the church. That is not coincidence, but is foretelling.
I think it's time for bluto to take popeye's spinach away but first of all I want say non of you pre-tribbers are heretics at least not on the issue of when the second coming happen. Now, having said that I will address you keep asking us to provide a verse supporting the post-tribulation view. And in this post your asking what you guys need to correct regarding the pre-tribulation view.
Ok, I will on both counts. Like I have been saying in many of my post Jesus was asked the question by His disciples, "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE?" (Matthew 24:3)
Jesus then starts to expound on this issue starting at vs4 and continuing all through chapter 24 of Matthew and even into Matthew 25. Here is the interesting part because last night when I was sleeping the Lord gave me a verse but I could not remember the reference. All I remembered was "those that endure to the end will be saved." I woke up and looked it up and "Volia," I find out it was at Matthew 24:13.
"But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved." I knew right away according to the context this was not talking about salvation proper. I also tied what Jesus said about the "end" at vs3 to this verse by asking myself a question? "If were goning to be raptured like you guys say then what "end" is Jesus talking about that we have to endure? Especially what Jesus says will happen after vs13? I also looked up Strong's number 4982 and you can read the following yourself. Strong's Greek: 4982. σώζω (sózó) -- to save Please notice it says to bring to safety or safely through is the idea. Just like salvation can mean being delivered to or from something.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Ok, I will on both counts. Like I have been saying in many of my post Jesus was asked the question by His disciples, "And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, AND THE END OF THE AGE?" (Matthew 24:3)
Jesus then starts to expound on this issue starting at vs4 and continuing all through chapter 24 of Matthew and even into Matthew 25. Here is the interesting part because last night when I was sleeping the Lord gave me a verse but I could not remember the reference. All I remembered was "those that endure to the end will be saved." I woke up and looked it up and "Volia," I find out it was at Matthew 24:13.
"But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved." I knew right away according to the context this was not talking about salvation proper. I also tied what Jesus said about the "end" at vs3 to this verse by asking myself a question? "If were goning to be raptured like you guys say then what "end" is Jesus talking about that we have to endure? Especially what Jesus says will happen after vs13? I also looked up Strong's number 4982 and you can read the following yourself. Strong's Greek: 4982. σώζω (sózó) -- to save Please notice it says to bring to safety or safely through is the idea. Just like salvation can mean being delivered to or from something.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
P
Saved.
Saved means saved from.
Are you trying to get us to believe all those not attending the entire 7 year Gt, are not saved?
"endure to the end" is what every believer that finishes the race does.
And BTW,When it says the AC Kills every man woman and child on the planet refusing the mark,is that a misprint,or a game changer for post tribs?
Saved means saved from.
Are you trying to get us to believe all those not attending the entire 7 year Gt, are not saved?
"endure to the end" is what every believer that finishes the race does.
And BTW,When it says the AC Kills every man woman and child on the planet refusing the mark,is that a misprint,or a game changer for post tribs?
Hi Ahwa: It is obvious to me that we approach the bible in different ways. I read the scriptures just the same as I would any other written message, that is I take the obvious in context meaning of what is written. Rev 4 says, the voice which I heard,as it were a trumpet talking, which said, come up here and I will show you things which must be hereafter(in the future). I just accept this for what it literally says, a voice called John up into Heaven to see and record the future. On the other hand, you come up with various meanings from various words to equate them to mean various things. To me this is a sure fire way to miss the truth because you are giving yourself authority to produce things in the scripture that are not actually there, and the particular interpretations come from yourself...in essence, you have made yourself co-producer of the intentions of God by placing your personal ideas on a par with what God has actually caused to be written. My question, if you stood before Christ could you really convince Him that Rev 4:1 means more then just a voice calling John up into Heaven to record the future...I know I could not.
P
Yeah...yeah...gotcha....the church goes through the tribulation your right...your right....So if it comes here before I leave this earth I better brush up on my preaching of a loving God.
Ahem....Please people believe me when I tell you you have a loving God. That his son took the wrath for your sins and all you need to do is repent. Don't take the mark of the beast. And as you might starve to death or freeze to death or get beheaded and watch your children do the same just remember you have a loving God.
It will be over soon believe me , you need only to hide for 3 and a half yrs. Believe and be baptised if we can find any fit water. Your God loves you and will provide , just endure it to the end, in fact this is your loving God allowing this to happen. He gave the powers that be the power to do this.
Yeah that works.
Ahem....Please people believe me when I tell you you have a loving God. That his son took the wrath for your sins and all you need to do is repent. Don't take the mark of the beast. And as you might starve to death or freeze to death or get beheaded and watch your children do the same just remember you have a loving God.
It will be over soon believe me , you need only to hide for 3 and a half yrs. Believe and be baptised if we can find any fit water. Your God loves you and will provide , just endure it to the end, in fact this is your loving God allowing this to happen. He gave the powers that be the power to do this.
Yeah that works.
Again popey, your shooting your self in the foot. Secondly, you have a reading comprehension problem so what I'm going to do is take this issue by the numbers. At Matthew 24 the disciples ask Jesus a question Matt 26:3? Jesus is the first to address this question, not the Apostle Paul, not Peter, not John but Jesus. Jesus begins by saying to see to it no one misleads you. He says many will come in His name saying their the Christ. There will be wars, earthquakes, famines and you will be hated and killed. (Sounds like today).
Many false prophets will arise and btw, this is only the beginning. Then to vs13, "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. How popeye? Is this the spot where the pre-trib rapture occurs? Just asking because I'm not done yet. Notice vs14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then THE END SHALL COME." Is this the place popeye when the pre-trib takes place?
Now look at vs15, "Therefore" (why is that word therefore there for popeye?) to show that "when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). What are we to understand popeye? Starting at vs16 Jesus outlines what is going to happen from vs16 through vs28. And notice vs24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead , if possible EVEN THE ELECT." So again popeye, where do you insert the pre-trib rapture? I mean if it's almost possible to mislead the elect who are already saved why are they still here?
Now for vs29, "BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS." What happens popeye? You can read it for yourself. The rest of the chapter is dealing with other things that will happen because we are still here. Then at chapter 25 Jesus explains about the kingdom of heaven etc. The Apostle Paul in his writings and Peter and John back up everything Jesus said. And take note, I started with the words of Jesus Christ first because He is the expert who answered the disciples question? Jesus did not expound on many vials there will be or how many trumpets will sound, who will or will not take the mark of the beast, none of that. So again, you tell me where your going to insert the pre-trib rapture? Isn't Bible study fun popeye?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Many false prophets will arise and btw, this is only the beginning. Then to vs13, "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. How popeye? Is this the spot where the pre-trib rapture occurs? Just asking because I'm not done yet. Notice vs14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then THE END SHALL COME." Is this the place popeye when the pre-trib takes place?
Now look at vs15, "Therefore" (why is that word therefore there for popeye?) to show that "when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). What are we to understand popeye? Starting at vs16 Jesus outlines what is going to happen from vs16 through vs28. And notice vs24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead , if possible EVEN THE ELECT." So again popeye, where do you insert the pre-trib rapture? I mean if it's almost possible to mislead the elect who are already saved why are they still here?
Now for vs29, "BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS." What happens popeye? You can read it for yourself. The rest of the chapter is dealing with other things that will happen because we are still here. Then at chapter 25 Jesus explains about the kingdom of heaven etc. The Apostle Paul in his writings and Peter and John back up everything Jesus said. And take note, I started with the words of Jesus Christ first because He is the expert who answered the disciples question? Jesus did not expound on many vials there will be or how many trumpets will sound, who will or will not take the mark of the beast, none of that. So again, you tell me where your going to insert the pre-trib rapture? Isn't Bible study fun popeye?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Again popey, your shooting your self in the foot. Secondly, you have a reading comprehension problem so what I'm going to do is take this issue by the numbers. At Matthew 24 the disciples ask Jesus a question Matt 26:3? Jesus is the first to address this question, not the Apostle Paul, not Peter, not John but Jesus. Jesus begins by saying to see to it no one misleads you. He says many will come in His name saying their the Christ. There will be wars, earthquakes, famines and you will be hated and killed. (Sounds like today).
Many false prophets will arise and btw, this is only the beginning. Then to vs13, "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. How popeye? Is this the spot where the pre-trib rapture occurs? Just asking because I'm not done yet. Notice vs14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then THE END SHALL COME." Is this the place popeye when the pre-trib takes place?
Now look at vs15, "Therefore" (why is that word therefore there for popeye?) to show that "when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). What are we to understand popeye? Starting at vs16 Jesus outlines what is going to happen from vs16 through vs28. And notice vs24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead , if possible EVEN THE ELECT." So again popeye, where do you insert the pre-trib rapture? I mean if it's almost possible to mislead the elect who are already saved why are they still here?
Now for vs29, "BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS." What happens popeye? You can read it for yourself. The rest of the chapter is dealing with other things that will happen because we are still here. Then at chapter 25 Jesus explains about the kingdom of heaven etc. The Apostle Paul in his writings and Peter and John back up everything Jesus said. And take note, I started with the words of Jesus Christ first because He is the expert who answered the disciples question? Jesus did not expound on many vials there will be or how many trumpets will sound, who will or will not take the mark of the beast, none of that. So again, you tell me where your going to insert the pre-trib rapture? Isn't Bible study fun popeye?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Many false prophets will arise and btw, this is only the beginning. Then to vs13, "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. How popeye? Is this the spot where the pre-trib rapture occurs? Just asking because I'm not done yet. Notice vs14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then THE END SHALL COME." Is this the place popeye when the pre-trib takes place?
Now look at vs15, "Therefore" (why is that word therefore there for popeye?) to show that "when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, (let the reader understand). What are we to understand popeye? Starting at vs16 Jesus outlines what is going to happen from vs16 through vs28. And notice vs24, "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead , if possible EVEN THE ELECT." So again popeye, where do you insert the pre-trib rapture? I mean if it's almost possible to mislead the elect who are already saved why are they still here?
Now for vs29, "BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS." What happens popeye? You can read it for yourself. The rest of the chapter is dealing with other things that will happen because we are still here. Then at chapter 25 Jesus explains about the kingdom of heaven etc. The Apostle Paul in his writings and Peter and John back up everything Jesus said. And take note, I started with the words of Jesus Christ first because He is the expert who answered the disciples question? Jesus did not expound on many vials there will be or how many trumpets will sound, who will or will not take the mark of the beast, none of that. So again, you tell me where your going to insert the pre-trib rapture? Isn't Bible study fun popeye?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Your error is three fold, 1) you are not recognizing that those are being referred to, as demonstrated by the mention of the abomination being set up and the warning to flee into the mountains of Judea, that Jesus is referring to Israel.
And 2) you are not understanding that there are going to be saints, which are not apart of the church, who will be here after the church has been gathered. This group is introduced in Rev.7:9-17, who are from every nation, tribe, people and language, making them Gentile saints. This is the same group that the beast is will be given authority to wage war against and to conquer (Rev.13:5-8).
You are also not believing in the scripture which says that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer the coming wrath of God, which will be well under way by the middle of the seven years when that abomination is set up. You have to discern who Matt.24 is directed at and its not the church, but Israel, and that in fulfillment of that last seven years in completion of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24-27)
During this time, God will also be dealing with a Christ rejecting world, the haughty, the prideful, arrogant, the sexually immoral and all of the works of the flesh. The church will not be on the earth and that because they will have already received Christ and have been reconciled, and credited with righteousness. The church, Christ's bride, is not going to suffer the same plagues of wrath that the unrighteous are going to suffer. And if you think that the church could somehow survive on the earth while God's wrath is being poured, you need to do a deeper study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
By the way, according to Rev.19:6-8,14, the church that will have previously been resurrected and caught up, will be that army riding on white horses and wearing that fine linen, white and clean. And they following Christ out of heaven, demonstrating that they are already in heaven.
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