And if I was dying of thirst....
you would probably show me a PICTURE of water!
OH WHEN WILL THE TEMPTATIONS END!!!!
Women Pastors? Help me.
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And if I was dying of thirst....
you would probably show me a PICTURE of water!
OH WHEN WILL THE TEMPTATIONS END!!!!
S
StanJ
Guest
Oh sorry, my apologies, I thought this had turned into an opinion column so I was just expressing my opinion.... didn't realize we were still talking about the actual Bible and what IT says.
Well my apologies for your apologies for whatever happened that made you express opinions about expressing your opinions on whatever you didn't realize we were talking about.
Oops.
A little levity never hurt anyone. Plus, this thread has been getting a bit on the nasty side, so IMHO the levity is needed.
S
StanJ
Guest
R
renewed_hope
Guest
Women should also be expected to either knit or crochet each member of their family some booties, scarves, a hat, and a blanket to keep them warm
Sorry to keep on discussing this, but I noticed as I was catching up on this thread, a lot of the "complimentarian" men were using 1 Cor. 14:33-34 as their final argument "proving" women could not preach in church. Because all women in all churches are required to keep silent, right Maxwel?
You know, the verse that is only 2 chapters after Paul was telling the Corinthians the cultural instructions for HOW women are to pray and prophecy in church.
"But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since that is one and the same as having her head shaved." 1 Cor. 11:5
So, unless Paul is a bit conflicted, or 1 Cor. 14:33-34 has a different meaning. And there is a very SIMPLE explanation for that.
Option #1 "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says."
In fact, the only confusion comes from the fact that the punctuation is in the wrong place.
Option #2 "For God is not a god of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." Then it continues - "the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law says."
Notice the difference.
Option #1 - a period (.) As....
or
Option #2 ...saints period (.) The women should keep silent... as the Law says.
You see, the original Greek was in majuscules, or capitals, all squished together, and no punctuation. Very easy to put a period in the wrong place if it suits your purpose. ESV is very male hierarchical (they call themselves "complementarians" but you get the idea!) and they have lovingly retained the KJV mistake. LOL! (See the example below for how the scribes and early writers jammed the words together, so they would save space on the precious parchment or scrolls.
Now the reason scholars know the punctuation is in the wrong place, is because of the last part of the passage. "As the law says". Except for in no place does it say in the law, that women should not speak, not even in the synagogue.
So Paul is likely quoting someone, some kind of early misogynist, and being sarcastic. I was in an Orthodox synagogue several years back when I took Hebrew, and the women talked to each other, and to the men over the barriers separating the men from the women. They obviously had never heard of a law prohibiting women from speaking either! Certainly, this is sarcasm, or some kind of Greek rhetorical joke.
The law never says women are to keep silent, Paul tells them how to pray and prophecy in church only 2 chapters earlier, so Paul is NOT saying the women have to be silent in ALL churches. He is saying that God is the author of peace in ALL the churches.
Then he writes snidely that the women should keep silent, just like the law does NOT say. Any converted Jew would have understood that. There were probably Gentiles in the church, and the Jewish believers explained that Paul was being sarcastic, and certainly the women were not to keep silent.
In fact, looking at combining the last part of verse 33 with the first part of 34 doesn't make sense.
"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches." Not very good writing style, to have the word churches written twice. It makes no sense for Paul to do this. He would have said either, "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent." Or "The women should keep silent in all the churches of the saints." BUT he does NOT!
Instead, there is NO LAW that says women should be silent in Jewish services, and it is no where in the law. And correspondingly, no Christian service is telling women to be quiet. Instead, Paul is using sarcasm to point out the exact opposite.
Women can and may speak in church! No prohibition at all, as much as some men and denominations would love it if Paul had said women can't speak in church, any time, anywhere.
You know, the verse that is only 2 chapters after Paul was telling the Corinthians the cultural instructions for HOW women are to pray and prophecy in church.
"But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since that is one and the same as having her head shaved." 1 Cor. 11:5
So, unless Paul is a bit conflicted, or 1 Cor. 14:33-34 has a different meaning. And there is a very SIMPLE explanation for that.
Option #1 "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.
As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says."
In fact, the only confusion comes from the fact that the punctuation is in the wrong place.
Option #2 "For God is not a god of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." Then it continues - "the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law says."
Notice the difference.
Option #1 - a period (.) As....
or
Option #2 ...saints period (.) The women should keep silent... as the Law says.
You see, the original Greek was in majuscules, or capitals, all squished together, and no punctuation. Very easy to put a period in the wrong place if it suits your purpose. ESV is very male hierarchical (they call themselves "complementarians" but you get the idea!) and they have lovingly retained the KJV mistake. LOL! (See the example below for how the scribes and early writers jammed the words together, so they would save space on the precious parchment or scrolls.
Now the reason scholars know the punctuation is in the wrong place, is because of the last part of the passage. "As the law says". Except for in no place does it say in the law, that women should not speak, not even in the synagogue.
So Paul is likely quoting someone, some kind of early misogynist, and being sarcastic. I was in an Orthodox synagogue several years back when I took Hebrew, and the women talked to each other, and to the men over the barriers separating the men from the women. They obviously had never heard of a law prohibiting women from speaking either! Certainly, this is sarcasm, or some kind of Greek rhetorical joke.
The law never says women are to keep silent, Paul tells them how to pray and prophecy in church only 2 chapters earlier, so Paul is NOT saying the women have to be silent in ALL churches. He is saying that God is the author of peace in ALL the churches.
Then he writes snidely that the women should keep silent, just like the law does NOT say. Any converted Jew would have understood that. There were probably Gentiles in the church, and the Jewish believers explained that Paul was being sarcastic, and certainly the women were not to keep silent.
In fact, looking at combining the last part of verse 33 with the first part of 34 doesn't make sense.
"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches." Not very good writing style, to have the word churches written twice. It makes no sense for Paul to do this. He would have said either, "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent." Or "The women should keep silent in all the churches of the saints." BUT he does NOT!
Instead, there is NO LAW that says women should be silent in Jewish services, and it is no where in the law. And correspondingly, no Christian service is telling women to be quiet. Instead, Paul is using sarcasm to point out the exact opposite.
Women can and may speak in church! No prohibition at all, as much as some men and denominations would love it if Paul had said women can't speak in church, any time, anywhere.
I DO have a problem with that scenario.
I also have a problem with a MAN leading a church.
Our assemblies are not to be "led" by any one person. The only "one person" to lead the church is Jesus.
To be scriptural, if leaders (plural) are needed, there should be a group of elders/pastors/shepherds/overseers, whichever term you prefer.... but more than one. And there are specific traits that these people should have.
Having a single person "lead" a church, whether male or female is NOT scriptural, and is, in my mind, a very dangerous thing for the spiritual health of that body of believers
I think I made mention of this very verse (1 Cor 11:5). The thing about it is, that even if it were the law, the law, as Paul so eloquently states again and again and again, has been nailed to the cross. It is only sinful men that keep trying to put others under laws that have been done away with in Christ.
Agreed, only Christ is the Leader of His church.
I also take a stand that women are to be quiet in the worship assembly, and not teach over the men of the congregation.
Oh, I had not yet posted this, but had it typed out
Paul said as it was under the law, but then claims the law
is nailed to the cross. Is he contradicting himself?
Also it is plain that married couples are being addressed.
In 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, Paul wrote: “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church” (vv. 33-35).
If we take this literally, it would mean that women are not allowed to sing in church nor respond when the pastor asks for comments or questions from the audience. Moreover, it would contradict what Paul said in chapter 11, where he said that women could pray and prophesy in church if they had the appropriate attire.
Common sense, church custom, and good principles of biblical interpretation all say that we should not take these verses literally. Paul is not making a blanket prohibition that says that women can never speak in church. Rather, he was addressing his comments to a certain situation, and his comments are limited in some way. https://www.gci.org/church/ministry/women9
This was also part of it:
Have you read 1 Cor 11 where women are praying and prophesying in church? Paul commends them for doing so as long as their head is covered. Is he contradicting himself? Or is he addressing a different issue, in relation to a specific problem?
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StanJ
Guest
IMHO, verses 34 - 35 is Paul quoting what had been submitted to him previously before writing this letter to the Corinthians and as such is why it is set apart by itself in most translations.
Verse 36 is Paul refuting this idea and going on to set the standard for corporate worship in the church.
S
StanJ
Guest
The real issue is not about who has a problem with women being pastors it is whether God has a problem with it or not and based on any lack of clarity in scripture to the contrary God does not have a problem with women being pastors, teachers, or leaders. If that was problematic every Church would have to get rid of about 90% of their Sunday school teachers.
Oh, no, to be perfectly Scriptural the women must enter the assembly with gags on! That would assure peaceful silence during the meeting time. Otherwise the men will freak out and feel threatened, yes? Isn't this what we have been told? That women must be silent or we are breaking some law that was never given to us (Christians) in the first place? As if the law still applies to us? And not only that, because we claim the freedom we have in Christ and acknowledge that in Christ there is neither male not female, we have now been told that we will stand condemned before God, as if Scripture does not also proclaim that there is now no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. No, they will tell us that Adam did not sin and that Adam was not disobedient and they will likewise lie about what was written of Eve because Scripture butchers are like that, you know, nothing is sacred to them but their own opinion. Nobody is safe from the liars and wolves that butcher Scripture. That is why we must put on the full armour of God.
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renewed_hope
Guest
I have never been to a church where the women don't speak. I firmly believe women are the heart of the church....they have the gift of emotion and sensitivity that brings the congregation together. Men are just as important as women but they hold a different purpose in the church.
I have a voice, a calling, and desires...however if I was married, my husband would have to support me and agree that I can step out in ministry...if not then I will trust his leadership and the role God put him in, in my life. I believe that is where a lot of this goes south because women believe they can do anything they want to do when they want to do it and the bible just does not say that
