Verse for "once saved always saved"?
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E
if there is nothign we can do. how can we LOSE that preservation?
so if we can UNPRESERVE ourself. that means we are in actuality, preserving ourselves by a deed, correct?
(2) Does God only preserve those who preserve themselves?
God only preserves those who believe.
We cannot preserve ourselves, anymore than putting strawberries in the freezer makes them preserves! LOL!
God only preserves those who believe.
We cannot preserve ourselves, anymore than putting strawberries in the freezer makes them preserves! LOL!
F
That puts the onus on yourself, and should make you very worried indeed. If you really want freedom from worry and dread and doubt, believe the truth that it is God who holds onto you and who will never let you go.
"...for He has said, “I will never [under any circumstances] desert you [nor give you up nor leave you without support, nor will I in any degree leave you helpless], nor will I forsake or let you down or relax My hold on you [assuredly not]!” Hebrews 13:5
"...for He has said, “I will never [under any circumstances] desert you [nor give you up nor leave you without support, nor will I in any degree leave you helpless], nor will I forsake or let you down or relax My hold on you [assuredly not]!” Hebrews 13:5
Grace 777 wrote:
I firmly believe in eternal security of the believer that is in Christ. I also can see the many warnings in the life for those that live according to the flesh too.
Take up shooting heroin in your arms and you will see very quickly how death will come to us. Same for eating so much until we are so obese we have a heart attack.
Notice that Paul says "after" you were believing when we heard the message of Christ - you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
You were sealed is in the Greek Aorist Indicative tense - passive voice - which means it was a one time act in the past - completed and this act was done to you - we didn't do it to ourselves.
How does one "unseal" themselves from the Holy Spirit? - by an act of their own will? Can we as an act of our own will un-born ourselves as a human?
Can someone by an "act of their will" un-born themselves from being a human being?
Can they one day say "I don't want to be a human anymore so I as an act of my will - I am un-born myself" ( we would think there is something wrong with this person's mind )
Can some one by "an act of their will" stop being a son/daughter to someone? Of course not - they will always be the child of their parents whether they like it or not.
We can no more by "an act of our will" un-born ourselves from God which Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed which lies and abides forever. We cannot "un-child" ourselves from being God's child because of Jesus Christ.
( we can become sick in our minds as the person that wants to "un-born" themselves as a human but the real us - the inner man of the heart that is in Christ - that inner man has his will entwined with God's perfect will because of union with Christ )
This is one of the reasons we need to "renew our mind" to align up with the spiritual truths that are in our new spirit in Christ.
Response: Ephesians 1:13 as you say says that after we believed, that we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. It was done to us: we did not do it ourselves. I think we completely agree on that! Rich, powerful blessings of God to those who believe!! Yes and amen!
As to your further explanation that "sealed" must mean that we can not "unseal" ourselves . . . The text itself says nothing about "unsealing" - I leave that to God.
As I said in another place, if one approaches this text believing in OSAS, then I can easily see how it can be read into the text.
I approach the text believing simply that the one believing is saved and the one not believing is not saved (as is very clear in other Scriptures - at least I think so - my presupposition perhaps! I don't see this text saying that an unbeliever will be saved. Nor do I see it saying clearly that once a person believes that they will always believe.
I firmly believe in eternal security of the believer that is in Christ. I also can see the many warnings in the life for those that live according to the flesh too.
Take up shooting heroin in your arms and you will see very quickly how death will come to us. Same for eating so much until we are so obese we have a heart attack.
Notice that Paul says "after" you were believing when we heard the message of Christ - you were sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
You were sealed is in the Greek Aorist Indicative tense - passive voice - which means it was a one time act in the past - completed and this act was done to you - we didn't do it to ourselves.
How does one "unseal" themselves from the Holy Spirit? - by an act of their own will? Can we as an act of our own will un-born ourselves as a human?
Can someone by an "act of their will" un-born themselves from being a human being?
Can they one day say "I don't want to be a human anymore so I as an act of my will - I am un-born myself" ( we would think there is something wrong with this person's mind )
Can some one by "an act of their will" stop being a son/daughter to someone? Of course not - they will always be the child of their parents whether they like it or not.
We can no more by "an act of our will" un-born ourselves from God which Peter says we are born again of incorruptible seed which lies and abides forever. We cannot "un-child" ourselves from being God's child because of Jesus Christ.
( we can become sick in our minds as the person that wants to "un-born" themselves as a human but the real us - the inner man of the heart that is in Christ - that inner man has his will entwined with God's perfect will because of union with Christ )
This is one of the reasons we need to "renew our mind" to align up with the spiritual truths that are in our new spirit in Christ.
Response: Ephesians 1:13 as you say says that after we believed, that we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. It was done to us: we did not do it ourselves. I think we completely agree on that! Rich, powerful blessings of God to those who believe!! Yes and amen!
As to your further explanation that "sealed" must mean that we can not "unseal" ourselves . . . The text itself says nothing about "unsealing" - I leave that to God.
As I said in another place, if one approaches this text believing in OSAS, then I can easily see how it can be read into the text.
I approach the text believing simply that the one believing is saved and the one not believing is not saved (as is very clear in other Scriptures - at least I think so - my presupposition perhaps!
I don't see this text saying that an unbeliever will be saved. Nor do I see it saying clearly that once a person believes that they will always believe.
E
Ah! Ah! We are so so close (and yet so far apart?) in our beliefs!
If you would let me just tweak the above words just a little bit . . .
Just change "That will never happen to "That should never happen"
If you would let me just tweak the above words just a little bit . . .
Just change "That will never happen to "That should never happen"
As far as "NEVER" vs "Should" The bible does not say SHOULD it says they were NEVER OF US,, or they would have remained WITH IS..
so I have to go with John on that one.
I could respond but I think it may be best to just stop here for now. I gave an answer to the verse(s) you posted and we differ on the interpretation - and I am OK with that. I respect your position, though I do not agree.
I am fine if you say things like "to me 'I should lose NOTHING' is perfectly clear". Obviously to me it is not "clear" in that I do not see the same things as you do in the text. Not a problem to me - I want to learn from other believers.
I am a bit confused on why you need to make statements like "but if you want to say that Jesus Christ is not telling the truth that is up to you". I do not think that I said anywhere that Jesus Christ does not tell the truth - I believe that all the words of Christ are 100% truth!
Yes, we disagree on the meaning of the words of Christ - and I guess if you feel so strongly about your interpretation to the extent that my interpretation makes me a heretic and an unbeliever - OK - you have a right to your opinion . . .
You also say at one place that I am "in the dark" - Is this how you feel - that those who do not believe in OSAS are not believers?
I for the record will say that though I disagree with those who believe in OSAS, I count many of them as my brothers in Christ.
I am fine if you say things like "to me 'I should lose NOTHING' is perfectly clear". Obviously to me it is not "clear" in that I do not see the same things as you do in the text. Not a problem to me - I want to learn from other believers.
I am a bit confused on why you need to make statements like "but if you want to say that Jesus Christ is not telling the truth that is up to you". I do not think that I said anywhere that Jesus Christ does not tell the truth - I believe that all the words of Christ are 100% truth!
Yes, we disagree on the meaning of the words of Christ - and I guess if you feel so strongly about your interpretation to the extent that my interpretation makes me a heretic and an unbeliever - OK - you have a right to your opinion . . .
You also say at one place that I am "in the dark" - Is this how you feel - that those who do not believe in OSAS are not believers?
I for the record will say that though I disagree with those who believe in OSAS, I count many of them as my brothers in Christ.
It's amazing to me that though I am completely free from the fear and dread of losing my salvation, that I am told that I should be very worried indeed . . .
I am very glad that as I believe in God, that His grace and power is completely sufficient to keep me secure in Him.
No worry or fear in that!
I am very glad that as I believe in God, that His grace and power is completely sufficient to keep me secure in Him.
No worry or fear in that!
F
It's amazing to me that though I am completely free from the fear and dread of losing my salvation, that I am told that I should be very worried indeed . . .
I am very glad that as I believe in God, that His grace and power is completely sufficient to keep me secure in Him.
No worry or fear in that!
I am very glad that as I believe in God, that His grace and power is completely sufficient to keep me secure in Him.
No worry or fear in that!
That verse in I John 2:19 - I assume you mean that verse:
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us"
I think I agree with you on this: the verse seems to mean that the group of people he is referring to were in the church, but were not actually born again Christians - because they left the church - and all this proved that they were not really born again.
No argument with that interpretation - It seems to me, though, that you are taking this verse and saying that because this was true of the group of people John writes about here - (that they were never born again) that this means that anyone anywhere in any age that seems to leave the faith (or the church, or true Christianity) was not truly born again to start with.
I do not think the text (I John 2:19) says this.
All it says is that the group of people John is writing about were not ever truly born again.
Now I do agree that very often people who seem to have "backslid" or "left the faith" probably never were born again to start with. But I don't see any clear Scriptural text that clearly says that this is always the case.
Thanks for the congenial discussion, EG - I am not sure what I am writing above is the verse you were referring to - so maybe I am trying to answer the wrong question - clarify as needed . . .
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us"
I think I agree with you on this: the verse seems to mean that the group of people he is referring to were in the church, but were not actually born again Christians - because they left the church - and all this proved that they were not really born again.
No argument with that interpretation - It seems to me, though, that you are taking this verse and saying that because this was true of the group of people John writes about here - (that they were never born again) that this means that anyone anywhere in any age that seems to leave the faith (or the church, or true Christianity) was not truly born again to start with.
I do not think the text (I John 2:19) says this.
All it says is that the group of people John is writing about were not ever truly born again.
Now I do agree that very often people who seem to have "backslid" or "left the faith" probably never were born again to start with. But I don't see any clear Scriptural text that clearly says that this is always the case.
Thanks for the congenial discussion, EG - I am not sure what I am writing above is the verse you were referring to - so maybe I am trying to answer the wrong question - clarify as needed . . .
D
I LOVE hanging on to Christ!! (Just like I love hanging on to my wife - though that is no business of yours!)
LOL!
And the more the devil "gets going" the more I love hanging on to Christ!
LOL!
And the more the devil "gets going" the more I love hanging on to Christ!
It's a shame you have such little trust in God that you think you hold onto him. Worse yet, you also think you're stronger than "the devil."
I lost my strength more than once. Twice was directly related to my husband coming so close to death, I couldn't hang onto him either. And, of course, he couldn't hang onto me. The last time he couldn't even lift his arm to hold. Of course, he was unaware of anything around him during those months in ICU, so at least he wasn't thinking he was the one clinging to God.
E
John is talking about antichrists. People who were going to the church, and professed Christ, but now, have professed unbelief in Christ.
I think it speaks for all time because of what John said.
1. If they had been truly of us, they would never have left. This is like other aspects of scripture which says the same, Like a dog returns to his vomit, A person who is really not saved can only act for so long..
2. They (the ones who now do not believe) left to reveal their true self (they they were never saved to begin with (of us)
besides this, I would ask the same question I always ask.
How can someone who is BORN OF GOD, Is CHASTENED BY GOD, has WITNESS and EXPERIENCED his TRUE LOVE because they had FAITH IN GOD.
ever turn from that and stop believing. What reason would God give them to do this? people do not do things without a reason. People deny God because of a reaon,, What reason did God give then that he was not trustworthy?
And, I respectfully disagree (though I agree with much of what you say)
Don't think I will answer here - my answer was in a previous post!
I will let you have the last word - for now! I plan to convince John of the truth of my position and then we'll confront you (in heaven!) Don't know that it will do any good, though - you are quite stubborn! (in a good way!
Don't think I will answer here - my answer was in a previous post!
I will let you have the last word - for now!
I plan to convince John of the truth of my position and then we'll confront you (in heaven!) Don't know that it will do any good, though - you are quite stubborn! (in a good way!