The easy way to spot a false grace message

[eternally-gratefull]

So I am trying to prove myself to God, am a religious person,

Thats not a good thing, If you have to prove yourself to god

Sinning blatantly is not part of the walk of grace.

AND NO ONE WOULD SAY IT IS.

Be careful Peter.. Slander is walling at the doorstep First warning.

 

[PeterJens]

You and others here like you have yet to understand this kind of grace and will fight it just like any religious person.

Got to be honest here. The more I have got into scripture the more nuts JP is.
Peter the apostle is very much about being dedicated and commited to walking in the ways
of Christ.

If anything, he was apt to be more religious rather than less.

The real question has been is who are you and what do you want to be.
Jesus is saying there is a process of choice, a path of discipline, self control, dedication,
perseverance that you can take with Him or the wide and easy road of letting things
flow along.

We become what we sow, to the Spirit or to the flesh. What many want to say is
nothing we do or build matters, it is only Jesus, while Jesus says I have come so that
you might become like me which means following, going down the hard road.

Now what it comes down to is who do you listen to and how much time you spend
in the word. Currently I spend 1 hour a day in scripture, reading passages and letting
major points jump out at me. And boy does it all the time. So either I am 100% growing
in the Lord or the bible is not the word of God and I am deluded.

Halleluyah that Christ has saved us, to His name be glory forever, Amen.

 

[joaniemarie]

So I am trying to prove myself to God, am a religious person,

Sinning blatantly is not part of the walk of grace.

Now this is an interesting claim. JP in his example is about someone blatantly sinning.
It then follows how you deal with that. You say you are righteous and deny the obvious
sin you should repent of.

You cannot come up with a more brainwashed disfunctional analysis of not dealing with
inappropriate behaviour than this. And for me to point out the obvious flaws means I am
an evil grace rejecting religious person.

Please leave from the door you entered. When we sin and are aware of it, we need to repent
confess and accept forgiveness through the cross.

I wonder how long the average HG believer lasts? Alone, maybe 5 years. In a loving relationship,
6 months. 5 bouts in inappropriate behaviour with no resolution, out the door.

Oh Peter I just couldn't resist jumping in because the topic said the easy way to spot a false grace message. I just wanted to join the rest in making it easy for you and others to spot a TRUE grace message.

P.S. You're not an evil grace rejecting religious person as far as I know.

The Bible says "freely you have received freely give". So that is what we who believe in the true grace message are wanting to do. Freely give what we have received. We freely received the righteousness of Christ and freely want to give out the good news of the Gospel of grace and truth.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing and hearing. And so I'm learning we should never tire or grow weary in well doing and in so doing., giving out the Word of God.

 

[joaniemarie]

LADYLYNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WB Have missed you!

Thank you EG!!! I've missed you guys too! Am working on getting my account back with my old name.

 

[Grace777x70]

LADYLYNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WB Have missed you!

Amen....welcome back Ladylynn - we have missed your posts about the beauty of the love of God for us and of His wondrous grace in our lives.

 

[JGIG]

Originally Posted by joaniemarie

For example, when you feel lousy because you have just shouted at your wife, God wants you to exercise your faith to see yourself as still righteous in the midst of that failure. This living revelation that you are still righteous will give you the strength to love your wife and reconcile things with her.

The devil may remind you of your foul temper and question your integrity: “How dare you call yourself righteous when you just did that!” Just ignore his lies and boldly declare, “I am not righteous because of what I have done or not done. I am righteous only because of the blood and finished work of Jesus at the cross!”

The above example illustrates the failure of the theology.
We are called to love, to repent of sin, to change our hearts so that we are conformed
to the image of Christ.

Rather than repentance over sin being preached, changing ones approach, getting things
right, so behaviour changes, this is your behaviour will continue, it is the devil who is saying
you are not as you should be, so claim everything is ok, and that is walking in faith.
You are righteous, no matter if you are sinning which is blatently false and hypocracy.

Sadly this theology is also implying that I must be the enemy to even say this.
Not surprisingly this theology is the enemy of the gospel of righteousness and grace.

This is so non christian, you cannot get more obvious. Only people enslaved to sin and
with no hope of freedom would accept such an approach.

Romans 5-8 is all about this issue - count yourself righteous unto God in Christ and dead to sin:

1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.


8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.


11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. (from Rom. 6)​

Right behavior comes out of right believing about who we are in Christ based on what HE has already done!

Example: Orphan, who has made a life out eating out of other people's garbage and whatever else they felt they needed to do to survive is lifted up and adopted by the King. Does that orphan unlearn all the behaviors of their old life immediately? No. It takes time for them to really comprehend their new identity - they are a child of the KING, now! How can they live as they formerly did anymore?!

Adjusting what we BELIEVE about who we ARE in Christ determines how we BEHAVE. This is the renewing of the mind (Rom. 12:1-2).

When we receive Christ, three things happen:

1. We receive the forgiveness paid for at the Cross for all of our sins (Eph. 1,2, Col. 1, 2, 1 Jn. 2)
2. We receive the gift of the Righteousness of God in Christ (Rom. 2-5, 2 Cor. 5)
3. We receive New Life in Christ, not our lives made longer or better, but the very eternal Life of Christ, His Holy Spirit dwelling in us, sealing us unto the day of redemption (Eph. 1)

We are given eternal life; a new heart.

Yet our minds still need renewing - what we HAVE in Christ because of His Work, we need to learn to UNDERSTAND.

What does the Reality of Christ in us mean to our day to day lives? When the orphan gets hungry, their first thought is the garbage bin - until they remember (or are reminded) of who they now are - no longer an orphan, but adopted by the King, in Whom all their needs are met. As their mind is renewed to the reality of who they now are, the urge to visit a garbage bin goes further and further away from them because they are becoming established in their new identity.

While the Enemy is all about accusing and pointing out bad behavior and how unlovable we are, the King is all about reminding us of how much He loves us and who we are in Him: "You are LOVED! Don't do that thing! Don't you know who you are?! You are a child of the KING! Your old self has died and been raised up new in ME!"

1 “Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.

2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and you will delight in the richest of fare.

3 Give ear and come to me;
listen, that you may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David. (from Is. 55)​

All through the Epistles, THAT is driven home again and again! Any passages that have to do with exhorting believers to good behavior are prefaced with building them up in who they are in Christ.

6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. (from Col. 2)​

So, PeterJens, what you interpret as a theological fail, the Scriptures proclaim as simple Truth.

For those in Christ, God is not interested in pointing out to them that which He has declared forgiven and is no longer counting against them! No! God is interested in rooting and building believers up in who they are in Christ, establishing them in faith, and teaching them by His Grace, so that they can live upright and Godly lives (Tit. 2)!

Hallelujah \o/ !​

-JGIG

 

[joaniemarie]

Got to be honest here. The more I have got into scripture the more nuts JP is.
Peter the apostle is very much about being dedicated and commited to walking in the ways
of Christ.

If anything, he was apt to be more religious rather than less.

The real question has been is who are you and what do you want to be.
Jesus is saying there is a process of choice, a path of discipline, self control, dedication,
perseverance that you can take with Him or the wide and easy road of letting things
flow along.

We become what we sow, to the Spirit or to the flesh. What many want to say is
nothing we do or build matters, it is only Jesus, while Jesus says I have come so that
you might become like me which means following, going down the hard road.

Now what it comes down to is who do you listen to and how much time you spend
in the word. Currently I spend 1 hour a day in scripture, reading passages and letting
major points jump out at me. And boy does it all the time. So either I am 100% growing
in the Lord or the bible is not the word of God and I am deluded.

Halleluyah that Christ has saved us, to His name be glory forever, Amen.

Peter, it doesn't matter how long you read the Bible or how long you have been saved if your heart is not willing. There are new Christians who are more willing to believe than those hardened religious baptized in lemon juice Christians.

Don't go by your "credits" go by the truth of the Word. When we "hear" it also means to believe what we are hearing from the Word apart from our human understanding. That is where faith begins to really take us where the Holy Spirit leads.

The Holy Spirit is the only one who can open our hearts to the truth. How open are we to His leading? THAT is the question. A sourpuss Christian can be so sour and hard that they are unwilling to open up to anything that sounds different to them.

So they interpret that unwillingness as a godly thing when in fact it is the very man made religious thing keeping them from growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

IMO - A sure way to spot a false grace/gospel message is this:

If one is doing any of it to keep salvation, maintain salvation or think that it has any bearing what so ever on their position in Christ.............It is legalism and a false gospel/grace message.

If one is walking in the Spirit and doing it through the Spirit by grace through faith in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection..........it is the holiness that is in the new creation in Christ being manifested and this is the true Christian life.

It is from start to finish - all by grace through faith alone in Christ's finished work. Right believing will produce the manifestation of His life in and through us to show His love and grace for others in this hurt and dying world.

The process is:

1) we hear the message of Christ

2) we believe the message of Christ

3) we become in manifestation what Christ is now because we see Him for who He really is. We are transformed to reflect in our outward behavior the life of Christ Himself by beholding the glory/goodness of the Lord by the Holy Spirit. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

We can see this being done in Eph. 1:13 when we first received Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, ( 1)the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, ( 2) you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, ( 3)

 

[Grandpa]

I've never seen a Grace message focus on sin. I think that's only something someone who doesn't understand Grace does.


People that fight against Grace don't care what Grace really is. They just know they don't like it.

 

[PeterJens]

You demanding?
Well here Peter. I will do what YOU REFUSE TO DO. and show at least I am honest.
1. I KNOW I am saved by GRACE (a word you forgot to use) throuogh FAITH in the work of the cross.
2. I KNOW you are adding legalism based on your LACK OF FAITH in the work of the cross.

They say you must HAVE FAITH, Mere Belief will NEVER save anyone, Even demons believe and tremble..

EG - thank you for this.

There is no slander here.
I have never hide my faith or beliefs, so I am 100% honest and open.
Is there a problem with the word believe.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

“Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
John 4:48

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
John 6:29

What have I refused to do?
I stated before I only know what you tell me is the problem.

 

[Grandpa]

The Grace Message;

My Grace is sufficient for you.

Every False Message;

His Grace is not sufficient for you. Now lets go focus on sin like we were before.

 

[PeterJens]

WIll now be honest and say you have not been listening to people. So you do not understand what they believe, even if you THINK you do?

EG - this grieves me. I have not been listening to people.

Let me give you the real translation of this, you have not been agreeing with people.
This is what you hate, with tremendous feeling. How dare you not agree with them
and not submit to their obvious superior spiritual and better understanding than your
own.

Yes, I get the message and hear it loud and clear.
The sin is to not submit to this forceful deluge. No, that is actually standing in the
full armour of God and knowing who is my Lord.

 

[joaniemarie]

The Grace Message;

My Grace is sufficient for you.

Every False Message;

His Grace is not sufficient for you. Now lets go focus on sin like we were before.

So true Grandpa. The grace message is about Jesus and His righteousness. Not sin and death. We have escaped sin and death and are NOW IN CHRIST. That is certainly GOOD NEWS. And we walk in that each day and confess Him daily as our righteousness. We are the righteousness of God IN Christ., not in ourselves.

 

[joaniemarie]

And I also want to add, being IN Christ does not make everything we "do" here on earth perfect or without mistake. We are STILL learning how to cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself above the knowledge of God.

Make no mistake about it., we are not perfect in our flesh and the Bible never says we are. It says that God sees NO SIN in us anymore. Just like when He looked down on Israel in the camp. He saw the cross. He did not BEHOLD their sin. He saw the cross.

Now WE have to learn to see the cross. We have to learn to see what God sees. That is our calling. And it begins with seeing ourselves as the righteousness of God IN Christ. That is such good news!!

 

[PeterJens]

I will do what YOU REFUSE TO DO

I did not notice I refused to do anything. I cannot do something I do not understand.

Righteousness - can we walk righteously, that is in obedience to the Spirit and fulfill
Gods law and find acceptance through faith in His heart?

It appears to me, though people accept this is our goal in Christ they say it is impossible

The best we can do is suppress sin and manage sin dia the truth and the Spirit, NO ONE IS SINLESS 100% while still bound in flesh.....the sooner you get this through your head the sooner you may see Jesus by faith!

So it would be fair to say if one is part of this group, it opposes those who say they
walk righteously ( empowered by the Holy Spirit and the cross of Christ )

Do you agree or are you saying this is slander?

It would appear to me by the above this is simply stating the truth.
Now where do you stand, with this group against those standing for righteous walking
or in support of us?

( Again unless you tell me and be honest, who am I to make a presumption )

 

[preacher4truth]

Turning the Gospel into a maintenance check list to retain, assist, or to gain salvation is turning the good news into really, really, really bad news.

You will never make it into the Kingdom of God. People think they're going to stand before God and be praised that 'they did it'? That is arrogant and blasphemous.

 

[Grace777x70]

And I also want to add, being IN Christ does not make everything we "do" here on earth perfect or without mistake. We are STILL learning how to cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself above the knowledge of God.

Make no mistake about it., we are not perfect in our flesh and the Bible never says we are. It says that God sees NO SIN in us anymore. Just like when He looked down on Israel in the camp. He saw the cross. He did not BEHOLD their sin. He saw the cross.

Now WE have to learn to see the cross. We have to learn to see what God sees. That is our calling. And it begins with seeing ourselves as the righteousness of God IN Christ. That is such good news!!

Amen...and we can see a type of this with Moses and the bronze snake in the wilderness. When the people were bitten by the snakes - the Lord said to lift up a bronze snake on a pole and when the people "looked at this image" they were healed.

God didn't tell them to watch out for the snakes, try to name the kind of snake it was, He didn't teach them 9 ways on how to avoid the snakes.

He just told them to look at the image of the bronze serpent on a pole ( bronze is a type for judgment in the OT ) - this is seen by Jesus when He said as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so too will the Son of Man be lifted up.

All judgment was drawn to Jesus for all sin. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

John 3:14-15 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

[SUP]15 [/SUP] so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

In Him we have the forgiveness of sins - that is the true gospel message of the grace of God in Christ towards us all. Acts 10:43

The dynamic in the New Covenant for us in Christ is "to behold the glory/goodness of the Lord" - in doing this - the Holy Spirit transforms us as we see Christ. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Because it's not expedient for us to be brought under that bondage. You sin and I sin and we all know it BUT what we call sin IS NOT sin for us because there is no law against it for us. Where there is no law sin is not imputted.

That sounds like the lawless doctrine called antinomianism shown here--->> Antinomianism | Theopedia

Under the New Covenant we have the laws of Christ written on our hearts and minds, so we are not without law as you suggest, nor do we practice lawlessness. Paul did not say he was without law, he said the opposite....

1 Corinthians 9:20-21[SUP] "[/SUP]And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;[SUP] 21 [/SUP]To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law."

Many people try to pit the law vs. Grace, but that is the wrong argument, it should be Grace vs. sin because the law is not against the promises of God. Think about this, if you removed all the laws in the world would everyone suddenly become holy and walk in righteousness? Of course not. But if God removed sin in the world and also in the people and imputed Christs righteousness in them, only then would people become holy and righteous having the righteousness of the law written in their hearts and minds. And if everyone were made righteous, then there would be no need for a law, as the law was not made for the righteous, but for sinners.

Here is a thread I wrote on Romans 7 which shows 2 laws at work in the world, the law of sin and death, and the law of God, which Paul said he served.

I have come across a grave error in my internet travels, and that error is in thinking that the law of God is a curse, and is the same Law as the law of sin and death. But Paul makes clear in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin. So what is the law of sin and death? I compare the law of sin and death to be much like the law of gravity; we are all firstborn under it naturally by reason of Adams original sin.

Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” As it is also written in Romans 5:19 “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,” So as it is also written, by nature we were the children of wrath Ephesians 2:3 and as by the judgement of one for sin was unto condemnation Romans 5:16 as the wages of sin is death= being under the law of sin and death.

We know this condemnation of sin was already in the world before the Law of Moses because death already reigned in the world. Romans 5:13 Notice we are told death reigned Romans 5:14“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

That is an important clue in understanding what it means to be under the law of sin and death. When you are under the law of sin you are a servant of sin, like sin being the Devils desire ruling over you as it is written in Romans 5:21 “That as sin hath reigned unto death…”

People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19 [SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:”

What Paul was showing in Romans 7 was the struggle and enmity between the law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit, these 2 spirits and 2 natures are contrary to one another. Notice in Romans 7 we are shown 2 laws, one is the law of sin and death, the other is the law of God. We already saw in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin, now notice Paul confirms in verse 13 the law of God is not death either.

Romans 7:12-25 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In the above we see the 2 laws (flesh vs. Spirit) warring against one another, but are we to remain in this state of captivity and bondage being under the law of sin and death? Scripture gives us the answer to this as well in Romans 8:1-4 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

What we see in the above is walking after the flesh is serving sin and =being under the law of sin and death. Thus when we are born again of the Spirit we are no longer walking in the lusts of the flesh. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” So it is the Spirit of Christ (law of the Spirit of Life) that sets us free from the first nature that desires to walk in the flesh and serve sin.

Now some might say this does not mean we are set free from sin and death, just that we are set free from the law of God. But that is not what is being said above by Paul. To what benefit would it be to be only set free from a holy law, and not be set free from sin and death? All that would amount to is a bunch of lawless sinners. Besides that, the Gentiles were never even under the Law of Moses to begin with, so how can you be set free from a law that you were never even under? Makes no sense.

But the law that both Jews and Gentiles are firstborn under, is the law of sin and death. Romans 3:9 “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;”

So hopefully you will see in this that it is sin you truly need to be set free from by faith in Jesus Christ, because a servant of sin abides not in the house forever. Peace.
​

 

[Grandpa]

I did not notice I refused to do anything. I cannot do something I do not understand.

Righteousness - can we walk righteously, that is in obedience to the Spirit and fulfill
Gods law and find acceptance through faith in His heart?

It appears to me, though people accept this is our goal in Christ they say it is impossible



So it would be fair to say if one is part of this group, it opposes those who say they
walk righteously ( empowered by the Holy Spirit and the cross of Christ )

Do you agree or are you saying this is slander?

It would appear to me by the above this is simply stating the truth.
Now where do you stand, with this group against those standing for righteous walking
or in support of us?

( Again unless you tell me and be honest, who am I to make a presumption )

The bible stands against you and everyone like you.

The very first thing you have to do is walk in the Light. That means honesty.

If you think that you walk perfectly in the Spirit then you are saying you are Jesus Christ on Earth. Its great that you aspire to that. To claim perfection as God is Perfection is just dishonest.

 

[HisHolly]

You should restate this.. claiming no one can walk perfect ' in the Spirit' is directly against what the Bible says.. Him being more than Spirit, sure we can mess up.. but in the Spirit, impossible

The bible stands against you and everyone like you.

The very first thing you have to do is walk in the Light. That means honesty.

If you think that you walk perfectly in the Spirit then you are saying you are Jesus Christ on Earth. Its great that you aspire to that. To claim perfection as God is Perfection is just dishonest.

... If you feel indignation about his posts then you my Sir, are self righteous.. He's not yours to judge but you should on your face seeking truth.. BC if he indeed is true, you oppose God.. dangerous..