Verse for "once saved always saved"?

[PeterJens]

How could it mean anything other than a literal fear and trembling? Since we don't have 'absolute' knowledge of our salvation (only God has 'absolute' knowledge) we, at times, fear for our soul.

I would argue, fear and trembling is not "awe and reverence" (as you say in your linked post)...rather it is "fear and trembling". Not sure how we can make such a leap away from the point-blank phrasing of Scripture!

We have "fear and trembling"...because the scrutinizing process regarding our salvation status, which both James and Paul are advocating...can, indeed, be a fearful process at times (in my understanding).

Some people equate fear with unbelief which for them is sin worthy of hell, so
fear and trembling cannot be fear and trembling else they are unbelievers doomed to hell.

You would not believe the sub-culture theology that is going on behind some of these
discussions that makes no sense until you see what they are really saying, which they
rarely admit to, because they also believe "religious" people will get upset and run away.

 

[John146]

Do you really think one sin can send you to hell?

Sin is the tip of an iceburg of failure and disease. If sin pokes through the whole thing
is about to cave in, it is just time before death arrives.

It is like you can be ill but it will not kill you. Or you are ill and you will die. Two very different
things. Without Christ and communion with God, we are going to die.

With Christ and communion the real relationship and life issues can be resolved and sin tackled
but sin is only a small part of the whole screwed up mess inside.

What sins were nailed at the cross? Past, present and/or future? Are we sealed unto the day of redemption or not? Whose job is it to guarantee our day of redemption? Do my good works and obedience help keep me sealed?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I have heard so many lies and false doctrine being spread about how ongoing unrepentant and willful sin will not effect your eternal security in Christ. I am going to prove this idea totally false by the words of Jesus. If you truly believe in Jesus Christ, then you will also believe and continue in His words right? Well here goes….

John 8:31-36 “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;[SUP]32 [/SUP]And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.[SUP]33 [/SUP]They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.[SUP]35 [/SUP]And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.[SUP]36 [/SUP]If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”

These words of Jesus are so plain and simple a child could understand them, but sinners will still argue against this very plain and simple truth because they themselves are still committing sins and are servants of sin, and thus they will also try to justify themselves and ongoing sin.

Let’s break this down. Jesus said those who commit sin are a servant of sin, and a servant abides not in the house forever. That verse right there crushes this false notion that ongoing sin does not compromise eternal security. The truth is right there in front of your face. A SERVANT OF SIN ABIDES NOT IN THE HOUSE FOREVER!

People, believing in the Truth according to the words of God has the power to set you free from the bondage of sin. Jesus Christ is the very Word of God, which is Truth and is that Eternal Life. Believe in what Jesus said above, and not the lies and false doctrine of carnally minded men. Believe Jesus when He said you can indeed be set free from the bondage of sin and death.
​

 

[HisHolly]

What do y'all think of this.. 1 John 5:16-17..
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death... There is a sin unto death, I do not say that he shall pray for it... They are already a brother so if saved and the sin is covered/ forgiven, why write this to sound as tho it's not so unless prayed for?

 

[Chester]

One lie can send a believer to hell? Is this what you are saying? Rightly divide brother, rightly divide.

It only takes one lie and God's justice demands full payment = eternity in hell - eternal death!

But if a person is a believer then the lie is forgiven - the blood of Christ cleanses us from each and every sin!

 

[PeterJens]

What sins were nailed at the cross? Past, present and/or future? Are we sealed unto the day of redemption or not? Whose job is it to guarantee our day of redemption? Do my good works and obedience help keep me sealed?

Hi John, let me not talk about your future sin forgiven doctrine, but what is in peoples lives
reality. Jesus opened a can of worms, your heart motivations, the mess within, not counting
how man tick boxes have I got a clean sheet for. You want a simple clean sheet view on life
and eternity.

This is no different than join the RCC church, do the rights and guaranteed heaven.

Jesus was so much more than this, or is this actually what you have bought into?

 

[Chester]

I don't recall quoting Ephesians........try John 3:16....!

For God so loved the world that whoever believes (Greek present tense - ongoingly continues to believe) in Him will not perish but has everlasting life.

Quite clear
- all who believe in Christ have eternal life
- those who do not believe do not have eternal life

 

[Grace777x70]

What do y'all think of this.. 1 John 5:16-17..
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death... There is a sin unto death, I do not say that he shall pray for it... They are already a brother so if saved and the sin is covered/ forgiven, why write this to sound as tho it's not so unless prayed for?

That's a good question.

Here is one guy's take on that. We must remember to always view all obscure scripture with the abundance of very clear scriptures and to never allow an obscure one rob us of the truth in the clear ones.

Under the Old Covenant, people’s sins separated them from God and kept Him from hearing their prayers (Isaiah 59:1-2). Praise God, in our New Covenant all our sins have been forgiven and do not keep God from hearing us (see my notes at Hebrews 9:12, 15; 10:10, and 14). God is merciful to our sins and doesn’t remember our iniquities anymore (Hebrews 8:12).

However, this verse states there is a sin unto death. Notice it doesn’t say there are sins (plural) unto death. There is A sin unto death.

Is this speaking of death literally or figuratively? The Greek word used for “death” can be used either way.

It would be possible that this is referring to the death effects sin brings in our lives such as depression or sickness (John 5:14). This could be saying that some sins open the door to these negative things in this life, and we will live with the results. We can’t pray them away.

It’s possible this could also be speaking of physical death. There may be a sin that will bring physical death to believers even though their eternal salvation has been purchased by the Lord and their future is secure. But through a sin such as some abuse of their body, they may open a door that costs them their physical lives, and they just can’t pray it away.

It’s possible as well that this could be speaking of lost people who repeatedly reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit to repent and place their faith in the Lord. People cannot come to God on their own (John 6:44).

If people reject the Holy Spirit, there is no guarantee that He will keep knocking at the door of their hearts (Revelation 3:20). If they reject this wooing of the Holy Spirit for the last time, it’s over. There is no way we can pray for them.

Notice also that this verse doesn’t use the definite article “the.” It doesn’t say THE sin unto death. There is just one sin that is unto death, but it may not be the same action for every individual. It is an attitude of the heart that might express itself in different actions in different individuals.

Andrew Wommack's Living Commentary.

 

[MattTooFor]

John seems to think that knowing we HAVE eternal life is essential to our continued faith in Christ.

You say "we have eternal life". Who is "we"? I think you may be brushing past that question. Who gets to say "I have eternal life"? Who are these people? Is it you and everyone sitting next to you in a church? James is saying that there are people who are mistakenly making this claim to eternal life. How do we sort out that issue? Who is mistaken and who isn't? James has a simple answer:

If your faith is producing works...then your faith is therefore producing proof of its genuineness. I certainly agree our salvation is not "performance-based". But our assurance of salvation is...in my understanding. Salvation cannot be earned, obviously.

But our assurance of salvation must be earned, in my view. Otherwise you run smack into the Book of James which is challenging us with "what have you done to deserve assurance of salvation? If your faith has no works, you do not deserve assurance".

To which modern-day Evangelicals would respond: "You can't tell me I'm not saved. I'm saved - and that's the end of it!"

 

[Chester]

John says that he has spoken things so that they may know that they have eternal life.

1 John 5:12-13 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Paul says to "work out " not "work for" in Phil. 2:12. The he says in verse 13 - "For it is God who is at work in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure".

In other words - work out what is in you now in the new creation in Christ. Put on Christ - put on the new man created in righteousness and holiness. It is God who is at work inside of you. Listen to the Holy Spirit inside of you. Keep your eyes on Jesus - the author and finisher of faith.

I agree with every word you wrote here!!

 

[PeterJens]

What bugs me is friendship.

So many people seem to be into equations and formula, how to be certain, how to not
worry.

Do you know your friends and just want to spend time with them?
Do you want to know how things work and how it can get sorted?

This is where Jesus is at. Sins are just the disease. Why did someone steal from
a shop? No money, no family, no education, no support, no friends, depression,
desperation etc. So is the solution to not steal or start dealing with the whole?

Is Jesus sending people to hell because they steal pens from work?
Is this worthy of destruction, or is there something more profound going on?

My answer is without Jesus they are a disfunctional mess that when resolved will die.
Jesus is declaring without Him there is no life, He is the Life. This is so profound, He
created a small sentence, "I am the way, the truth and the Life."

 

[HisHolly]

Ok I get it.. my next question is what happens if the sin done by the brother goes unprayed for? To pray is to get life..

That's a good question.

Here is one guy's take on that. We must remember to always view all obscure scripture with the abundance of very clear scriptures and to never allow an obscure one rob us of the truth in the clear ones.

Under the Old Covenant, people’s sins separated them from God and kept Him from hearing their prayers (Isaiah 59:1-2). Praise God, in our New Covenant all our sins have been forgiven and do not keep God from hearing us (see my notes at Hebrews 9:12, 15; 10:10, and 14). God is merciful to our sins and doesn’t remember our iniquities anymore (Hebrews 8:12).

However, this verse states there is a sin unto death. Notice it doesn’t say there are sins (plural) unto death. There is A sin unto death.

Is this speaking of death literally or figuratively? The Greek word used for “death” can be used either way.

It would be possible that this is referring to the death effects sin brings in our lives such as depression or sickness (John 5:14). This could be saying that some sins open the door to these negative things in this life, and we will live with the results. We can’t pray them away.

It’s possible this could also be speaking of physical death. There may be a sin that will bring physical death to believers even though their eternal salvation has been purchased by the Lord and their future is secure. But through a sin such as some abuse of their body, they may open a door that costs them their physical lives, and they just can’t pray it away.

It’s possible as well that this could be speaking of lost people who repeatedly reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit to repent and place their faith in the Lord. People cannot come to God on their own (John 6:44).

If people reject the Holy Spirit, there is no guarantee that He will keep knocking at the door of their hearts (Revelation 3:20). If they reject this wooing of the Holy Spirit for the last time, it’s over. There is no way we can pray for them.

Notice also that this verse doesn’t use the definite article “the.” It doesn’t say THE sin unto death. There is just one sin that is unto death, but it may not be the same action for every individual. It is an attitude of the heart that might express itself in different actions in different individuals.

Andrew Wommack's Living Commentary.

 

[Grace777x70]

For God so loved the world that whoever believes (Greek present tense - ongoingly continues to believe) in Him will not perish but has everlasting life.

Quite clear
- all who believe in Christ have eternal life
- those who do not believe do not have eternal life

I agree......we believe with the heart. Romans 10:10.

Is it possible to have something happen to our minds and be sick in them and have our thinking goofed up? Does the thinking in our minds or if we say things from our emotions that we really don't believe in our heart. ( Like a child will say to their parents - I hate you - but in reality they love their parents )

.....what if some believers that have received Christ are like that. What if they get goofed up in their minds? What if the drugs they are on screw them up too? Does this change their heart - the inner man in Christ that scripture says is sealed with the Holy Spirit?

Personally I don't believe it does. True belief is of the heart and our minds can get goofed up and we can say things that in our hearts we don't really believe.

 

[Chester]

Originally Posted by Chester

Hmmm!!?? There is no aorist verb tense in Ephesians 2:8.




Actually Eph. 2:8 would be a perfect example of eternal security in Christ's work.

Ephesians 2:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


The Greek word "you have been saved" is in the perfect tense. I love the perfect tense. It is also in the passive voice.

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that we are saved from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.

I honestly cannot see where someone could doubt that our salvation in Christ is not eternal - we are joined as one spirit with Him - sealed in the Holy Spirit. He loves us dearly and has made the perfect sacrifice so that we could be with Him and the Father for all eternity.

Interesting, Grace 777 - Here again in reality, I think I agree with everything you wrote!

As long as you don't go beyond Scripture and say "once save always saved" we are pretty close! LOL!

I believe like you that salvation is eternal for the believer - the Bible says so! As you said, it is "continuously happening in the present"!

 

[Grace777x70]

Ok I get it.. my next question is what happens if the sin done by the brother goes unprayed for? To pray is to get life..

I don't have the answer to that question - perhaps others have some revelation in that area.

I do now that Paul prayed for his fellow believers to have the eyes of their heart open to see Christ in them. Maybe that might have something to do with it. I really haven't given any thought to this area before.

You ask great questions...

 

[Grace777x70]

Interesting, Grace 777 - Here again in reality, I think I agree with everything you wrote!

As long as you don't go beyond Scripture and say "once save always saved" we are pretty close! LOL!

I believe like you that salvation is eternal for the believer - the Bible says so! As you said, it is "continuously happening in the present"!

I guess maybe we can agree on this part ( for those believing ...)

1 John 5:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[PeterJens]

Sheep, goats, good trees, bad trees

Now let me take an idea. We are sealed individually by the Holy Spirit except only each
person knows what that means for themselves, so therefore no other person really knows.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Peter 2:1

So whether one is able to distinguish who you are or what you are is probably unknown.
All we can do is follow and be faithful.

So unfortunately there is no security in faith, it is all about the walk and trust
and faith. Peters answer to this was simple.

For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:5-8

 

[Chester]

originally Posted by Gr8grace

Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The Believer's Study Bible writes that...
The full sense of the expression “you have been saved” is difficult to capture in English. The Greek perfect tense emphasizes action initiated in the past, the effects of which continue into the present and beyond. Therefore, salvation has a moment of initiation in the past, but the results of that primary experience continue (Ed: See Three Tenses of Salvation). This is another evidence of the permanence of our salvation, a doctrine which is called the “eternal security of the believer.” (Criswell, W A. Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)
Commenting on the significance of the tense of the two verbs "been" (present tense) and "saved" (perfect tense) Kenneth Wuest writes...
Not content with the details offered by the perfect tense, Paul uses a periphrastic construction (Ed note: a periphrasis is the use of a longer phrasing in place of a possible shorter form of expression = a roundabout way of expressing something. In Greek it specifically means the use of a verb in any tense but aorist in combination with the verb eimi = to be as the auxiliary verb) consisting of the participle in the perfect tense and the verb of being in the present tense. The perfect tense speaks of the existence of finished results in present time, whereas Paul wanted to express persistence of finished results through present time. So he borrows the durative aspect of the present tense verb to give persistence to the existing results. The Expanded Translation reads: “By the grace have you been saved completely with the result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time.” Present time in this instance is always the time at which the reader reads his statement. The security of the believer could not have been expressed in stronger terms. (Wuest, Kenneth - The Practical Use of the Greek New Testament - Part II: The Eloquence of Greek Tenses and Moods - Bibliotheca Sacra: A quarterly published by Dallas Theological Seminary. Volume 117. Issue 466. Page 142) (Theological Journal Subscription info) (List of 22 journals - 500 yrs of articles searchable by topic or verse! Incredible Online Resource!)

Note the line I put in bold print: "The security of the believer could not have been expressed in stronger terms" - I am now quite sure what Wuest means here, but Paul could have written; 'For by grace you are saved - and once you are saved you will always be saved' - But he did not write this . . . But I do agree that for the one who is believing in Jesus has complete security! The one who is not believing has no basis for security!

 

[Chester]

I don't think that is meant to bring uncertainty to salvation.

Jeremiah 33:9 And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.

I agree that the intent of God is never to bring insecurity to the one who believes in Him.

 

[HisHolly]

Oh okay.. I do thank you for your responses.

I don't have the answer to that question - perhaps others have some revelation in that area.

I do now that Paul prayed for his fellow believers to have the eyes of their heart open to see Christ in them. Maybe that might have something to do with it. I really haven't given any thought to this area before.

You ask great questions...