Verse for "once saved always saved"?

[Grace777x70]

Originally Posted by Chester

Hmmm!!?? There is no aorist verb tense in Ephesians 2:8.

I don't recall quoting Ephesians........try John 3:16....!

Actually Eph. 2:8 would be a perfect example of eternal security in Christ's work.

Ephesians 2:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


The Greek word "you have been saved" is in the perfect tense. I love the perfect tense. It is also in the passive voice.

perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.

passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it

Without a doubt this verse says that we are saved from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.

I honestly cannot see where someone could doubt that our salvation in Christ is not eternal - we are joined as one spirit with Him - sealed in the Holy Spirit. He loves us dearly and has made the perfect sacrifice so that we could be with Him and the Father for all eternity.

 

[MattTooFor]

John says that he has spoken things so that they may know that they have eternal life.

1 John 5:13 (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

OK but...the above scripture only applies to..."you that believe". Only those who truly "believe" can know they are saved, in my understanding. And the Book of James subjects anyone's faith...to a scrutiny. One's faith must be scrutinized to determine it's validity. A lot of people are under the impression they have a valid and genuine belief...but they may be deceived about that:

1Cor.6:9-10 -- "Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, [etc.]...will inherit the kingdom of God."

A gigantic load of people in the American church world in particular...are deceived about their salvation status. They're living a split life. Jekyll-and-Hyde But because someone told them they are "saved" based on the fact they "prayed for salvation" when they were six years old at Vacation Bible school...they brush aside 1Cor.6:9-10 and claim "I know I'm saved!".

Paul says to "work out " not "work for" in Phil. 2:12.

I certainly agree. It is God who saves us. But it seems that verse is indicating there can be uncertainty about our salvation status, otherwise there wouldn't be "fear and trembling".

 

[Awakened]

Amen...the "perfect tense" in Greek is very descriptive. It is also used in Jesus' words " It is finished".

Here is another one of those "perfect" uses.

1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.

I like reading everyone's posts on the forums and then going to my Bible to gain my own understanding.* I do agree that once a person believes in Jesus Christ his/her past, present, and future sins have been forgiven.

Hebrews10 :26 has me stumped. Does this mean unless you sin unknowingly, it's not covered?

Hebrews 10:9

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:26

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

 

[88]

Once saved always saved is not something I would practice or preach----I think it is hard to lose one's salvation---- and I wouldn' t want to find out---- there's many warning Scriptures which show us to steer away from living a careless life...Grace and Peace

 

[Grace777x70]

Eph 2:8~~New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The Believer's Study Bible writes that...
The full sense of the expression “you have been saved” is difficult to capture in English. The Greek perfect tense emphasizes action initiated in the past, the effects of which continue into the present and beyond. Therefore, salvation has a moment of initiation in the past, but the results of that primary experience continue (Ed: See Three Tenses of Salvation). This is another evidence of the permanence of our salvation, a doctrine which is called the “eternal security of the believer.” (Criswell, W A. Believer's Study Bible: New King James Version. 1991. Thomas Nelson)
Commenting on the significance of the tense of the two verbs "been" (present tense) and "saved" (perfect tense) Kenneth Wuest writes...
Not content with the details offered by the perfect tense, Paul uses a periphrastic construction (Ed note: a periphrasis is the use of a longer phrasing in place of a possible shorter form of expression = a roundabout way of expressing something. In Greek it specifically means the use of a verb in any tense but aorist in combination with the verb eimi = to be as the auxiliary verb) consisting of the participle in the perfect tense and the verb of being in the present tense. The perfect tense speaks of the existence of finished results in present time, whereas Paul wanted to express persistence of finished results through present time. So he borrows the durative aspect of the present tense verb to give persistence to the existing results. The Expanded Translation reads: “By the grace have you been saved completely with the result that you are in a state of salvation which persists through present time.” Present time in this instance is always the time at which the reader reads his statement. The security of the believer could not have been expressed in stronger terms. (Wuest, Kenneth - The Practical Use of the Greek New Testament - Part II: The Eloquence of Greek Tenses and Moods - Bibliotheca Sacra: A quarterly published by Dallas Theological Seminary. Volume 117. Issue 466. Page 142) (Theological Journal Subscription info) (List of 22 journals - 500 yrs of articles searchable by topic or verse! Incredible Online Resource!)

This post here describes the reality of the truth that we are saved for eternity because we are in Christ through faith when we hear the message of Christ and the effects of that salvation are always present. Tomorrow when it comes will be the "present".

Yes, there are admonishments for walking after the flesh that need to be heeded and the destruction that those bring to us while on this earth - but let's preach and teach the Christ and His finished work and then the revelation of Him brings the grace needed for transformation and life.

To preach the warnings without the foundation of Christ's work being established in our lives produces a performance driven religion that denies the true power of God to effect changes in us.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

I like reading everyone's posts on the forums and then going to my Bible to gain my own understanding.* I do agree that once a person believes in Jesus Christ his/her past, present, and future sins have been forgiven.

Hebrews10 :26 has me stumped. Does this mean unless you sin unknowingly, it's not covered?

Hebrews 10:9

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:26

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Good questions. Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.

Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.

Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.

Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.

Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins. Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.

The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.

There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.

Here is a short 2 minute video which will illuminate this clearly.

[video=youtube;yrc5EOpokSc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrc5EOpokSc[/video]

 

[Grace777x70]

OK but...the above scripture only applies to..."you that believe". Only those who truly "believe" can know they are saved, in my understanding. And the Book of James subjects anyone's faith...to a scrutiny. One's faith must be scrutinized to determine it's validity. A lot of people are under the impression they have a valid and genuine belief...but they may be deceived about that:

1Cor.6:9-10 -- "Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, [etc.]...will inherit the kingdom of God."

A gigantic load of people in the American church world in particular...are deceived about their salvation status. They're living a split life. Jekyll-and-Hyde But because someone told them they are "saved" based on the fact they "prayed for salvation" when they were six years old at Vacation Bible school...they brush aside 1Cor.6:9-10 and claim "I know I'm saved!".

I certainly agree. It is God who saves us. But it seems that verse is indicating there can be uncertainty about our salvation status, otherwise there wouldn't be "fear and trembling".

Hi Matt.

There are a few things about this. Good questions.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,


Eph. 1:13 shows the process of salvation as in being in Christ.

1 ) hear the message of Christ

2) believe the message of Christ

3) then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit at the time we believed.

First Paul says "It is with the heart that man believes" Romans 10:10 - so only God can look on the heart to say who believes in Christ and who doesn't.

I agree there are those in the churches that may not be "in Christ" at all. Jesus did say that there would be tares in with the wheat and that His angels would separate them out at the end. So, I'll leave the diagnoses of who is "in Christ" up to the Lord. who knows the hearts of all men.

As far as James goes - here is a link to a post that talks about faith and works and that James used as an example what Abraham and Rahab did. Just what did they do to "prove their faith"?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/145721-calvinism-another-heresy-14.html#post2911157

Here is a link that probes deeper into the "lists" of the works of the flesh and eternal life being manifested. Some things to consider about this subject.

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-what-does-mean-does-heaven-hell-depend.html

The "fear and trembling" thing of Phil 2:12 has been mis-interpreted in my opinion and thus it can be used to create "doubt" in one's salvation.

If our salvation for going to heaven is based on us - we are in deep trouble. Thank God for the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Basically "with fear and trembling" means to not be dependent on ourselves but on the goodness and power of God in our lives as this term's other uses in scriptures show what is the meaning of the phrase.


Here is the link that talks more fully on this subject.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/139255-wages-sin-death-3.html#post2716422

You have asked great questions and coming from a Pentecostal background - I too had the exact same questions.

 

[PeterJens]

To preach the warnings without the foundation of Christ's work being established in our lives produces a performance driven religion that denies the true power of God to effect changes in us.

Amen. It is wrong to be moral without God, because morality is evil by itself and leads
people to do such evil things. The reason why the world is lost is because of all the
good they do. ( I am being sarcastic here )

The problem in the world is "evil desires" from the heart that defile or destroy people.

And the remedy is repentance, admitting these desires are evil and lead to sin, rebellious
and destructive behaviour against God and other people, and even ourselves.
We need to then commit to do that which is right founded on love.
Confession, we need to outwardly confess our commitment and rejection of sin.
Christ. We need to approach God and accept Christ is the attoning sacrifice for our sins
through the cross, and ask Him to forgive us.
We then need to listen and learn from Jesus and follow in obedience.
Now upon this foundation we can build. Amen.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I thought g777 spoke very well in that phrase. I've heard a woman on her death bed who I went to talk with say (and I've heard it elsewhere by people many times) that she had always tried to be good. But without the foundation of Christ, to try to be good and have manners is a building block of society, but not a building block of eternal life. Many well mannered people who have been well trained by society, (for the purpose of society running smoothly instead of devolving into anarchy), are not covered by the Blood. And another verse agrees with this phrase from g777 - there is one foundation to build on and building on any other foundation (like manners and civic duties) will be burned in fire. (as always, my paraphrase )

 

[Grandpa]

OK but...the above scripture only applies to..."you that believe". Only those who truly "believe" can know they are saved, in my understanding. And the Book of James subjects anyone's faith...to a scrutiny. One's faith must be scrutinized to determine it's validity. A lot of people are under the impression they have a valid and genuine belief...but they may be deceived about that:

1Cor.6:9-10 -- "Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, [etc.]...will inherit the kingdom of God."

A gigantic load of people in the American church world in particular...are deceived about their salvation status. They're living a split life. Jekyll-and-Hyde But because someone told them they are "saved" based on the fact they "prayed for salvation" when they were six years old at Vacation Bible school...they brush aside 1Cor.6:9-10 and claim "I know I'm saved!".

I certainly agree. It is God who saves us. But it seems that verse is indicating there can be uncertainty about our salvation status, otherwise there wouldn't be "fear and trembling".

I don't think that is meant to bring uncertainty to salvation.

Jeremiah 33:9 [FONT=&quot]And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it.[/FONT]

 

[PeterJens]

A gigantic load of people in the American church world in particular...are deceived about their salvation status. They're living a split life. Jekyll-and-Hyde But because someone told them they are "saved" based on the fact they "prayed for salvation" when they were six years old at Vacation Bible school...they brush aside 1Cor.6:9-10 and claim "I know I'm saved!".

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Eph 1:4

Paul believed we can be, are, as believers walking in the Spirit, Holy and blameless.

The real problem is without love alive in ones soul, and walking with integrity, people do not
have the language of Holy and blameless, only sinners in continual sin, with a religious ceremony
that keeps them on heavens side of judgement, maybe.

The reason why preachers do not preach Paul, is people would leave the church.
So they would rather have sinners sinning filling the pews than an empty buildings.

In reality they are wrong because most of the people are believers faithfully following
Christ with dilemmas that if brought into the open could be worked with and resolved.

But there is the compromise, go for truth or die with compromise. Following God is
not their primary desire.

 

[Awakened]

Good questions. Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.

Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.

Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.

Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.

Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins. Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.

The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.

There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.

Here is a short 2 minute video which will illuminate this clearly.

[video=youtube;yrc5EOpokSc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrc5EOpokSc[/video]

Thank you! I understand now. ☺

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree, if I'm understanding you correctly. (And it's probably wise to agree with someone who has 39,000 posts versus my 1.) But this is the aspect that is overlooked by 99.9% of all those who debate OSAS:

Certainly, once God has saved someone they cannot become 'unsaved' anymore than someone can become unborn. The problem from the human perspective is...only God knows whose names are written in the Book of Life. We here on earth don't get a sneak peek at this book. So we're left to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling". Of course, anyone who is walking on the 'straight and narrow' certainly deserves to have a very strong sense of assurance...but never to simply presume "hey, I'm saved, period -- end of discussion". I know there is a kind of 'false doctrine' out there which says believers can know with "absolute certainty" that they are saved, but no one has "absolute" knowledge about anything...except God.

And certainly, modern-day Evangelical "absolutists" would be in an awkward situation if they had been sitting in the Corinthian congregation on the day there was a reading of Paul's second epistle, chapter 13 verse 5, which says "examine yourselves whether you are of the faith".

Modern-day mainstream Evangelical: "Hey wait a minute, I don't have to examine myself. I already know absolutely that I'm saved."

This two verses comes to mind.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

John seems to think that knowing we HAVE eternal life is essential to our continued faith in Christ. If we doubt we are saved or have any fear of loss of salvation for any reason, Our faith in Christ will not continue to strength, but will fade, Causing us to lose faith in God (unless your dishonest with yourself) because if you do not KNOW you have eternal life, your christian life becomes perfromanced base, So if you are honest, you have to look deep inside, and realize, Your performance is not up to snuff..which would cause doubt, Or worse, you staert to water down Gods laws to a point where you do not feel judged, and start judging others.

Either way, it causes your true faith in God (if there ever was faith) to go away. .

 

[Grace777x70]

Thank you! I understand now. ☺

You are welcome. We all need each other and the Lord has set in His church those teachers that have what I call the "Daniel spirit". These anointed of God to teach on certain areas of truth will help to "show us hard sentences" and to help "dissolve doubts".

Daniel 5:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar: now let Daniel be called, and he will shew the interpretation.


I have asked the Lord to send me those types of people so that I would grow up in Him and rely on His grace for all things in my life.

Jesus said that we would know the truth and this truth would set us free.

Sometimes we need help as when others helped Lazarus get rid of his grave clothes when Jesus raised him from the dead.

 

[PeterJens]

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Heb 10:26-27

Willful sinning. Sin is treated as a minor issue. Ok we sin, but everybody sins,
and as a believer we consciously do evil, choose to do it, knowing God hates it
yet it is ok to us, so this cannot be talking about us, or else we have lost our
salvation or do not even know it in the first place.

This is a lie. The verse is saying what it is saying, get serious with sin, if you
do not you will loose your faith. It is a farce to in one hand talk about purity,
holiness, blamelessness, and walking righteously while being a slave to behaviour
you know is wrong, but choose to indulge in. That is wrong.

 

[PeterJens]

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Heb 10:26-27

Spiritual realities. I have met believers who like the upside of praise and the high of
christian life, but do not care about the morality or righteousness involved. They
habitually sin, and it is not a problem. The real problem is they are destroying their
conscience, their soul, their spirituality, who they are as an integrated loving person,
and their faith. When all is done, the cross will mean nothing, because they have
trampled on everything sacred in their lives, and only judgement awaits, there end
is pitiable poor and blind.

 

[John146]

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
Heb 10:26-27

Willful sinning. Sin is treated as a minor issue. Ok we sin, but everybody sins,
and as a believer we consciously do evil, choose to do it, knowing God hates it
yet it is ok to us, so this cannot be talking about us, or else we have lost our
salvation or do not even know it in the first place.

This is a lie. The verse is saying what it is saying, get serious with sin, if you
do not you will loose your faith. It is a farce to in one hand talk about purity,
holiness, blamelessness, and walking righteously while being a slave to behaviour
you know is wrong, but choose to indulge in. That is wrong.

One lie can send a believer to hell? Is this what you are saying? Rightly divide brother, rightly divide.

 

[MattTooFor]

Hi Matt.


Eph. 1:13 shows the process of salvation as in being in Christ.

1 ) hear the message of Christ

2) believe the message of Christ

3) then we are sealed with the Holy Spirit at the time we believed.

I agree. But still...the question would seem to remain "what is real belief and is real belief occurring in the life of a particular believer?"

First Paul says "It is with the heart that man believes" Romans 10:10 - so only God can look on the heart to say who believes in Christ and who doesn't.

OK. So far, so good.

I agree there are those in the churches that may not be "in Christ" at all. Jesus did say that there would be tares in with the wheat and that His angels would separate them out at the end. So, I'll leave the diagnoses of who is "in Christ" up to the Lord. who knows the hearts of all men.

Well, there you go! How does one determine whether they are "in Christ" or not? That's the question I think believers are responsible for dealing with their whole life. At what point does one stop scrutinizing oneself in the way Paul instructs in 1Cor. 6:9-10 and any number of other scriptures?

In your other post you linked to, you described what you believe to be a singular act of faith that confirms salvation:

Both Rahab and Abraham each did a one time corresponding action to demonstrate their faith.

But that singular act was recognized only in hindsight and only by means of the divine inspiration of the author, James. How do we ourselves go about recognizing some 'singular' act of faith?

Somebody might 'trust' God during a bout with cancer and those around him might marvel at this 'faith'. The man recovers from the cancer but some time later falls into sin. And then here comes the Apostle Paul with his 1Cor.6:9-10 - "hey, those that practice sin will not see the kingdom of God". And the guy says: Wait a minute, I demonstrated my 'singular act of faith' during the cancer. I'm saved, period.


That's what these passages in James are all about: People are mis-identifying their salvation status. This is a huge ongoing problem in the church world. Some people here seem to be saying they think they are immune from mis-identification...contrary to what James indicated.


If James came along today on a speaking tour, preaching the same warnings from his book...he would be bombarded with "hey buddy, you're instilling fear and worry in the congregation." His response: "there are a lot of people who need to worry - their faith is not real"...but they are deceived into thinking it is real, just as Paul warned could happen in 1Cor.6".


The argument is being made here by some folks, that you can get rid of the entire process of scrutinizing and carefully identifying your salvation status.

Basically "with fear and trembling" means to not be dependent on ourselves but on the goodness and power of God in our lives as this term's other uses in scriptures show what is the meaning of the phrase.

How could it mean anything other than a literal fear and trembling? Since we don't have 'absolute' knowledge of our salvation (only God has 'absolute' knowledge) we, at times, fear for our soul.

I would argue, fear and trembling is not "awe and reverence" (as you say in your linked post)...rather it is "fear and trembling". Not sure how we can make such a leap away from the point-blank phrasing of Scripture!

We have "fear and trembling"...because the scrutinizing process regarding our salvation status, which both James and Paul are advocating...can, indeed, be a fearful process at times (in my understanding).

 

[Chester]

Ephesians 1 is quite clear is it not? It's a promise to the believer that the redemption will happen, guaranteed!

Yes, definitely - it is a promise to the believer - but not to an unbeliever!

 

[PeterJens]

One lie can send a believer to hell? Is this what you are saying? Rightly divide brother, rightly divide.

Do you really think one sin can send you to hell?

Sin is the tip of an iceburg of failure and disease. If sin pokes through the whole thing
is about to cave in, it is just time before death arrives.

It is like you can be ill but it will not kill you. Or you are ill and you will die. Two very different
things. Without Christ and communion with God, we are going to die.

With Christ and communion the real relationship and life issues can be resolved and sin tackled
but sin is only a small part of the whole screwed up mess inside.