Tongues Again???

[presidente]

It’s not what the law which is not subject to change informs us. It does not say signs are for those who believe or for both .

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

That verse does not say 'signs are for them that believe not.' It says that tongues are for a sign to them that believe not. I showed you a translation that rendered the verse to say that prophesying is a sign to them that believe. It's not directly stated, but that was the sense the translators, and many others, get from the text.

Be that as it may, the verse does not say or hint that signs are exclusively for unbelievers, and Matthew 24 shows a sign given to believers.

And I pointed this out to you before. This reminds me of another verse from Isaiah about hearing and not understanding and seeing and not perceiving.

It’s not what the law which is not subject to change informs us. It does not say signs are for those who believe or for both .

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I could quote the same verse and say, "See, right there in the Bible. Eating chocolate is forbidden between the 1st of the month and the 15th. It is right there in the verse." Insisting it is in the verse does not make it so.

Following the same law in 1 Corinthians 14 . Signs are for those who believe not prophesy.Prophecy (the word of God) for those who do believe.

'Wherefore' in I Corinthians 14:22, which you quote above, shows a logical connection to the previous verse. The sign of tongues is the fulfillment of the prophesy of Isaiah, 'and yet for all that, they will not hear Me.' When unbelievers hear speaking in tongues, they do not hear God. The prophecy is fulfilled, i.o.w. the sign is fulfilled.

Signs can also be for believers if God chooses. The verse you quoted to support your theory did not support it.

Not outward signs. A contrite new heart ,yes.

Why wouldn't you consider the events of Matthew 24 to be 'outward signs'? That doesn't make sense. Why, when confronted with scripture, don't you incorporate those scriptures into your belief system? It's like you have your own beliefs and you string phrases from the Bible together to support your made-up theory. When confronted with scripture that disproves your theory, you keep on believing and saying the same thing. Learning from the word of God is a good thing.

I would say your theory rejects his law.

I supported what I said from the Bible. The disciples asked Jesus for a sign, and He gave them many. One of them He specifically called a 'sign' in his answer. Read Matthew 24.

You are taking a specific verse that says that tongues are for a sign to them that believe not. Then you say signs are for them that believe not. The verse does not say that signs are exclusively for them that believe not. You are reading ideas into the verse, ideas that contradict other scriptures.

What sign and wonder did He perform at that time ? Christ said it is an evil generation (natural man) that seeks after one.

Many.
Acts 5
[SUP]12 [/SUP]The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade.

The fact that the disciples asked Jesus for a sign and prayed to God for signs and wonders does not mean they had no faith or that they lacked faith.

They lacked the faith that comes form hearing God's word

So you are saying that the disciples lacked faith that comes from hearing God's word. I've got another explanation. The apostles had learned something from spending years with Jesus, and they were filled with the Holy Spirit. They knew what they were doing. But you don't know what you are talking about. The apostles were right and you are wrong. That's my theory. Why should we believe you understand the word of God better than the apostles?

,Prophecy having it in respect to their own selves. by performing a work. so its a mater of whose faith of the things of God or those of men

I understood the first part of the run-on sentence, I think. But this looks like you took a bunch of phrases from sentences you wanted to say, wrote them on pieces of paper, put them in a hat, and pulled them out and strung a sentence together. I don't really get your point. I can sort of guess based on past correspondence. You seem to have this wrong idea that performing a miracle is 'a work' in some bad sense. Since Jesus performed a lot of miracles, you should rethink whatever this theory of yours is. But, admittedly, what you wrote in the post above is word salad, so I'm not exactly sure what you meant.

Faith has to do with things not seen, the eternal, not that which is seen them, temporal flesh

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The apostles and others had faith, and then they saw stuff. They had faith before they saw. Paul wrote of the manifestation of the Spirit. If the Spirit manifests something that can be seen, observed, etc., that is not contrary to the Christian faith. I think we have another case of your taking a verse and reading an idea into it that contradicts other scripture.

Paul was preaching in Lystra. He saw a man who had the faith to be healed. Paul spoke and the man was healed. The healing was something visible and verifiable. The fact that his physical body was healed in an observable way is not contrary to Christian faith. Some of your statements remind me of gnostic beliefs that the material world is bad.

There is nothing to indicate we should seek after a sign (outward appearance) before we can believe, proving God is with us. .
It would seem the verse below as to how it is understood could be the issue.

God does not owe people signs to help them believe. But God is merciful. Any believer in Christ should know better than to think he needs a sign before he can believe God. In Acts 4, the apostles weren't asking for signs so they could see something so they could believe God exists. They knew God exists. They had faith in Jesus. They probably wanted the signs to help unbelievers come to faith.

Unbelievers are in a pitiful state. God sometimes helps them with signs, wonders, or other things that help them come to faith. Muslims and Jews who don't believe in Jesus report having dreams or visions that help them come to faith, for example.

 

[presidente]

I said I didn't want to post here to debate Charismatics or Pentecostals, because my experience, ever since the early 80's in over a 100 such discussions, has been that the VAST majority of those discussions with them, just lead to Charismatics and Pentecostals getting bitter and furiously mad. They usually end up showing contempt for us by yelling or using LARGE TYPE, and almost always degenerate to hurling name calling insults.

VCO has presented some bizarre theories, at least that should be considered bizarre from the perspective of a Bible-believing Christian. But I can't think of one person on here that has actually called him names. I've seen him post in large type several times, including in this post.

I can see why some people would get upset with his posts, especially when they refute him clearly with scripture and he says, the reason you believe you do is because you have an emotional experience, and goes into a bunch of made-up details. People don't appreciate it when someone tells them what they believe or why when it isn't true.

I will Agree to Disagree with any of them, before love and respect goes out the window. I said, I post here to encourage the non-charismatics in OUR BELIEFS, and to show the younger ones of us, that OUR BELIEFS can be supported BIBLICALLY.

Some translations of Acts say that Paul disputed with the Jews. In Acts 15, when some men from Jerusalem taught false doctrine in Antioch, Paul and Barnabas disputed with them. My guess is this took place publically in their church meeting. Is it really unloving to confront false doctrine? Love does not delight in iniquity, but rejoices with the truth.

Calling the gifts of the Spirit in the pages of the Bible itself pagan is a pretty big deal. I think people have been very easy with VCO on this thread considering.

There are a few Charismatic and Pentecostal exceptions here who have proven they can discuss this subject, presenting their beliefs, WITHOUT showing BITTERNESS and CONTEMPT for those of us, who interpret these Scripture like the rest of mainline Protestants. AND, those FEW have proven that they can do this while maintaining LOVE for all the brethren, both charismatics and non-charismatics.

I notice the caps here. I wonder what 'mainline Protestant' means these days. Are liberal, modernist beliefs, such as the idea that the parting of the Red Sea was just low tide and not a miracle, or that Jesus did not really turn water into wine or perform other miracles, and things like that, 'mainline Protestant' beliefs? If so, maybe explaining away speaking in I Corinthians 14 tongues as a pagan practice would fit with 'mainline.' But it's based on a type of unbelieving liberalism. It is not consistent with a high view of scripture or with believing that the actual text of I Corinthians 14 is an accurate description of what is going on, or with the idea that Paul was an honest, God-fearing, sincere minister of the Gospel.

 

[notuptome]

VCO has presented some bizarre theories, at least that should be considered bizarre from the perspective of a Bible-believing Christian. But I can't think of one person on here that has actually called him names. I've seen him post in large type several times, including in this post.

I can see why some people would get upset with his posts, especially when they refute him clearly with scripture and he says, the reason you believe you do is because you have an emotional experience, and goes into a bunch of made-up details. People don't appreciate it when someone tells them what they believe or why when it isn't true.




Some translations of Acts say that Paul disputed with the Jews. In Acts 15, when some men from Jerusalem taught false doctrine in Antioch, Paul and Barnabas disputed with them. My guess is this took place publically in their church meeting. Is it really unloving to confront false doctrine? Love does not delight in iniquity, but rejoices with the truth.

Calling the gifts of the Spirit in the pages of the Bible itself pagan is a pretty big deal. I think people have been very easy with VCO on this thread considering.




I notice the caps here. I wonder what 'mainline Protestant' means these days. Are liberal, modernist beliefs, such as the idea that the parting of the Red Sea was just low tide and not a miracle, or that Jesus did not really turn water into wine or perform other miracles, and things like that, 'mainline Protestant' beliefs? If so, maybe explaining away speaking in I Corinthians 14 tongues as a pagan practice would fit with 'mainline.' But it's based on a type of unbelieving liberalism. It is not consistent with a high view of scripture or with believing that the actual text of I Corinthians 14 is an accurate description of what is going on, or with the idea that Paul was an honest, God-fearing, sincere minister of the Gospel.
[/SIZE][/SIZE]

You just cannot help yourself. You continue your relentless attack because you cannot tolerate any opposing position to your own.

There are a few Pentecostal or Charismatic folks who are able to concede that tongues are languages and not babble. There are some that I am certain they are apostate and will not suffer the truth to be heard.

Pr 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[VCO]

Jesus is the way, THE TRUTH, and the life. I don't think He would agree to disagree.

I know there are those who might think a firm stand on scripture is unloving. The problem really is though, will we believe all the scripture or just half? And was Jesus really victorious over principalities and powers of the demonic realm? He had a reason to give the body of Christ His own overcoming power. To say that one might be cursing Him while worshipping Him in His own Spirit is just way too ridiculous to not challenge.

It's love to speak the truth no matter how uncomfortable it may be to do so.

Agreeing to Disagree, is how I believe we are to remain obedient to these verses:


2 Timothy 2:23-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,


We believe 100% in the TONGUES where unbelieving Jews hear the speaker proclaiming the mighty works of GOD in their own native Dialects. We believe anything minus those specific characteristics that are directly from the BIBLE, is a Counterfeit.

I believe you have a right to believe something different, but WHY is that not a two way street?


1 Corinthians 13:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels {who spoke with the boldness and fortissimo voice of authority}, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.


So where is the LOVE, coming from the vast majority of Charismatics and Pentecostals, for those of us who believe the HOLY SPIRIT has taught us that your charismatic ecstatic utterances is a counterfeit of the genuine Miracle Sign of TONGUES.


1 Corinthians 13:2 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.


We believe Paul wrote the first half of the following verse 3 as a condemnation in response to real literal event that happened in the Corinthian Church:


1 Corinthians 12:2-3 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.


We love you all, despite the fact that we do not agree on this minor issue.

HOW COME, that is not a two way Street?


Galatians 5:22-23 (ESV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[SUP]23 [/SUP] gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.


WHERE IS YOUR LOVE?

 

[VCO]

. . . Why is both grace and tongues the subjects that bring the most division?

I don't know but am asking the Lord why.

Now that you brought it up, what side of the division on Salvation is by Grace alone, are you on.

We believe that SALVATION the moment we first Believed by HIS GRACE AND MERCY. It has nothing to do with our works of Righteousness, that WILL HAPPEN because we WERE genuinely SAVED, the moment we Believed in our Heart, and not just an intellectual decision on whether or not the stories about Jesus are True.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works {Produced after we are SAVED out of GOD's Love the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts, Rom. 5:5), which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Titus 3:4-7 (ESV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
[SUP]5 [/SUP] he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[VCO]

This in and of itself is a troubling concept. I hope that you are correct and those who in my observation abuse what they call the gifts of the Spirit namely tongues have a correct knowledge of Jesus Christ which is essential to eternal life.

I know I will be blasted for this but some of the testimonies I have read regarding their conversion experience and the lack of a defined understanding of Holy Spirit baptism in regard to the regeneration or new birth is absolutely chilling.

Jesus taught us about tares and wheat. Jesus taught us that He would know who are His and who are not. I do not presume to judge because I cannot do so with certainty like the Lord Himself. There is simply a nagging inconsistency in word and actions that does not give me comfort regarding their eternal state.

I do not love them less nor do I wish evil upon them but something just isn't right. Not to worry as Paul never gave up on his kinsmen Israel I will not abandon those in the Pentecostal or Charismatic camps. I have seen the Lord do mighty works in the hearts of men and in the Lord is my hope, trust and confidence.

Rom 10:1 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are correct, this Charismatic thing is not proof of Salvation; whereas did they genuinely from the heart confess their sins and repent, and believe in Christ sincerely enough to out of a God given LOVE FOR HIM, willingly surrender to HIM as LORD and MASTER? That is the genuine proof of Salvation, not the ecstatic babble, they call Charismatic

 

[VCO]

This in and of itself is a troubling concept. I hope that you are correct and those who in my observation abuse what they call the gifts of the Spirit namely tongues have a correct knowledge of Jesus Christ which is essential to eternal life.

I know I will be blasted for this but some of the testimonies I have read regarding their conversion experience and the lack of a defined understanding of Holy Spirit baptism in regard to the regeneration or new birth is absolutely chilling.

Jesus taught us about tares and wheat. Jesus taught us that He would know who are His and who are not. I do not presume to judge because I cannot do so with certainty like the Lord Himself. There is simply a nagging inconsistency in word and actions that does not give me comfort regarding their eternal state.

I do not love them less nor do I wish evil upon them but something just isn't right. Not to worry as Paul never gave up on his kinsmen Israel I will not abandon those in the Pentecostal or Charismatic camps. I have seen the Lord do mighty works in the hearts of men and in the Lord is my hope, trust and confidence.

Rom 10:1 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;


For the cause of Christ
Roger

You are absolutely right, there is a reason to worry about them. Their ecstatic utterances that they call Charismatic tongues is NOT the proof being genuinely SAVED. It is sincerely confessing sins and repenting, and out of a DEEP God given LOVE for HIM, surrendering and receiving HIM as LORD and Master, that is the genuine proof of Salvation.

The most dangerous thing about the Charismatic Movement, is the extreme likelihood of ushering many onto the Broad Road to Destruction, deceiving them via their counterfeit tounges experience, into believing they born again, when they actually bypassed genuine confession/repentance and lovingly receiving Jesus Christ as LORD and MASTER. I believe that is why Jesus said:

Matthew 7:13-23 (ESV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


I have had several in the past bitterly say to me, "Oh, so you are just one of those Lordship Salvationists."

If they mean, that I think one has to repent and receive HIM out of LOVE, as Lord and Master, in order to be SAVED and Born Again? YES I AM ONE OF THOSE. What I mean by that is, that kind of Faith, is a Work of the Holy Spirit, and not an intellectual decision. It is part of the free Gift that comes by the GRACE of GOD. You cannot do that Without the Holy Spirit being in you. Conviction, Repentance, and submitting out of LOVE FOR JESUS CHRIST, to HIS Lordship, is all a Work of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 5:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

1 John 4:7 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

This in and of itself is a troubling concept. I hope that you are correct and those who in my observation abuse what they call the gifts of the Spirit namely tongues have a correct knowledge of Jesus Christ which is essential to eternal life.

I know I will be blasted for this but some of the testimonies I have read regarding their conversion experience and the lack of a defined understanding of Holy Spirit baptism in regard to the regeneration or new birth is absolutely chilling.

Jesus taught us about tares and wheat. Jesus taught us that He would know who are His and who are not. I do not presume to judge because I cannot do so with certainty like the Lord Himself. There is simply a nagging inconsistency in word and actions that does not give me comfort regarding their eternal state.

I do not love them less nor do I wish evil upon them but something just isn't right. Not to worry as Paul never gave up on his kinsmen Israel I will not abandon those in the Pentecostal or Charismatic camps. I have seen the Lord do mighty works in the hearts of men and in the Lord is my hope, trust and confidence.

Rom 10:1 ¶ Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

For the cause of Christ
Roger

1 Cor. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.For the body is not one member, but many.If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body.And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.


I do not worry about your salvation because you do not believe in manifesting the gift of holy spirit - I ask that the salvation of those who believe in manifesting the gift of holy spirit not be questioned. Thanks.

 

[VCO]

You are correct, this Charismatic thing is not proof of Salvation; whereas did they genuinely from the heart confess their sins and repent, and believe in Christ sincerely enough to out of a God given LOVE FOR HIM, willingly surrender to HIM as LORD and MASTER? That is the genuine proof of Salvation, not the ecstatic babble, they call Charismatic

I wondered where that partially written post disappeared to. I wasn't even holding on to the mouse when it happened. The screen flickered and it was gone.

 

[VCO]

You just cannot help yourself. You continue your relentless attack because you cannot tolerate any opposing position to your own.

There are a few Pentecostal or Charismatic folks who are able to concede that tongues are languages and not babble. There are some that I am certain they are apostate and will not suffer the truth to be heard.

Pr 25:14 Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Like I said, he earned his way to my Ignore List.

So what kind of fruit is dissensions, strife, and fits of anger again?

 

[presidente]

Like I said, he earned his way to my Ignore List.

So what kind of fruit is dissensions, strife, and fits of anger again?

This is slander. I've disagreed with VCOs error. That's not dissension or strife. I've not displayed any 'fits of anger.' If VCO disagrees with someone, he thinks that's okay. If someone disagrees with him, he accuses them of being angry? I'm calm over here on this side of the Internet. He was doing that kind of stuff when we were talking. Now, he's posting about me while I'm on his ignore list still. Weird.

 

[presidente]

I don't think someone has to believe in the operation of certain gifts of the Spirit to be a Christian. But Paul did not want the Corinthian Christians to be ignorant of them. I suppose they could have been Christians and remained ignorant, but it would not have been beneficial to me.

It does concern me when I see people attribute a gift of the Holy Spirit to demons. There is such a thing as fruit. It really grieves me when people attribute the very gifts of the Spirit in the Bible to demons or paganism. I pointed the dangers of this out to VCO, which is probably what led to his putting me on the ignore list.

 

[presidente]

Agreeing to Disagree, is how I believe we are to remain obedient to these verses:

Is it right to 'agree to disagree' when someone else is promoting doctrinal error? Isn't that saying, "I agree that it is okay that you oppose the truth."

2 Timothy 2:23-25 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Disagreeing and discussion is not the same thing as quarreling. Some people can handle disagreement without quarreling.

We believe 100% in the TONGUES where unbelieving Jews hear the speaker proclaiming the mighty works of GOD in their own native Dialects. We believe anything minus those specific characteristics that are directly from the BIBLE, is a Counterfeit.

Who is 'we.' The thing is, with cessationists, they each have some tool to arrive at their conclusion that certain gifts have ceased. But they use a different path to arrive at the conclusion they want to reach. Not all cessationists would accept this theory, because it is a rather weak way to interpret the passage, relying on forcing an interpretation down there in the 'early 20's' verses of the passage while ignoring or deemphasizing the verses that come before and after.

The biggest error in this assertion is that in Corinth, God did not make it so that people were present who understood the language when speaking in tongues occurred. In Acts 2, that was something that happened in addition to the Spirit enabling people to speak in tongues.

Paul says tongues are a sign to them that believe not. You go beyond how Paul interpreted the verse to say it only applies to unbelieving Jews. But if you were right about that, there are still unbelieving Jews, so that is not an argument that tongues have ceased.

The passage does not teach that the only purpose of tongues is for a sign to unbelievers. Some people want to do away with tongues, so they try to force that idea into the passage. 'Divers tongues' is among the manifestations of the Spirit given to the body 'for the common good' in chapter 12. In chapter 14, it edifies the speaker, and with interpretation, it edifies the church. Paul says of everyone of you having a tongue, 'let all things be done unto edifying.'

We need to look at the whole argument in the epistle and in the passage, not take one little verse and try to squeeze an interpretation into it that fits some agenda.

 

[presidente]

VCO wrote

I believe you have a right to believe something different, but WHY is that not a two way street?

Who gave us the right to believe doctrinal error? Neither John Locke nor Thomas Jefferson had the right to do that.

1 Corinthians 13:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels {who spoke with the boldness and fortissimo voice of authority}, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

So where is the LOVE, coming from the vast majority of Charismatics and Pentecostals, for those of us who believe the HOLY SPIRIT has taught us that your charismatic ecstatic utterances is a counterfeit of the genuine Miracle Sign of TONGUES.

VCO has promoted the idea that a certain gift that we read about as being practiced in the church in the very Bible itself was pagan in origin, a rather putrid doctrine. But who has called him names or treated him harshly? Who has shown him a lack of love?

Why does he consider it loving to promote his error on a forum and disagree with others, but consider it unloving when others disagree with him?

We love you all, despite the fact that we do not agree on this minor issue.

HOW COME, that is not a two way Street?

We can't know if you love us. We are having a discussion on the forum. We can't see your face. You can't give us $5 if we are out of cash, or give us a shirt us the shirt off your back if we are cold. We can't do the same to you in this means of communication. We've got the same issue on this side?

Why would you assume Pentecostals and Charismatics don't love you? Why is it you think you can disagree with people and you love them, but if people disagree with you, you assume they don't love you?

You assumed I was angry at you when I disagreed with you? I've not felt hot under the collar during this thread. I do find attributing the works of the Spirit to pagan sources disturbing.


As far as Pentecostals and Charismatics having love, I saw an article recently about how prominent Pentecostals and Charismatics are in social charities and things of that nature. A Pentecostal church in LA during the Great Depression fed more people in soup line than the federal government. Mercy Ships sails around Africa performing operations. I read those who started it were from a Charismatic or Pentecostal background.

 

[presidente]

We believe Paul wrote the first half of the following verse 3 as a condemnation in response to real literal event that happened in the Corinthian Church:


1 Corinthians 12:2-3 (ESV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.

This is another one of those cases where all cessationists will not agree. It's just not reasonable to assume it was happening. It could have, but that doesn't prove it.

I wonder why this has to be a real event while, 'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels' has to be interpreted as hyperbole by a number of cessationists.

If you do assume someone was cursing Christ, it makes more sense to associate it with the situation in verse 2, something they might have done or witnessed while pagans. It does not make sense to associate cursing Christ with the 'manifestations of the Spirit' which Paul expounds on in the verses that followed.

He establishes here in verse 3 that no one speaking by the Spirit of God curses Christ. Then he lists 'manifestations of the Spirit.' People do not curse Christ doing those things because no one speaking by the Spirit of God curses Christ. 'Divers tongues' is listed among those manifestations of the Spirit.

The passage clearly teaches us that someone speaking by the manifestation of the Spirit of 'divers tongues' is NOT cursing Christ.

There is no rebuke of any of the people in church cursing Christ in the church. Paul gets onto them for sins they had committed or that he was concerned that they might commit, such as fornication and idolatry, in this chapter. Would it have been negligent if he knew people were cursing Christ in church and did not rebuke or correct them for it?

Some interpretations of scripture are foolishness, and many of these can be debunked by a careful reading of the text. Fortunately, most cessationists I have encountered have not argued for the interpretation (read into the text) that Paul was rebuking Corinthian Christians for cursing Christ in church.

 

[presidente]

You just cannot help yourself. You continue your relentless attack because you cannot tolerate any opposing position to your own.

I'm participating in the thread. I see someone promoting error, and I post against it. If you don't believe in extra-biblical revelation, you shouldn't pretend to know other people's motives. It is not rational. I could do the same thing to you, and assume what your motives and feelings are. That's also a rude thing to do.

There are a few Pentecostal or Charismatic folks who are able to concede that tongues are languages and not babble.

Historically, Pentecostals have seen 'tongues' as 'languages.' Part of this has to do with what the word means. Part of it probably has to do with all of the testimonies of people understanding their own language at Azusa Street. There were those who had this theory back then, as some cessationists do, that if they spoke in tongues they could just go evangelize all over the world without learning the language. The Bible doesn't teach that, and that usually didn't work out. It apparently wasn't happening when the gift was exercised in Corinth either.

You did not answer the questions in my post.

Can you see that it is appropriate to speak out against attributing the gifts of the Spirit in the pages of the Bible itself to imitating pagan practice or people speaking under a demonic frenzy? I can understand people who don't believe in the miracles in the Bible saying the Corinthians were imitating pagan practice. It fits their worldview. That seems to be where the theory originated.

 

[presidente]

You are absolutely right, there is a reason to worry about them. Their ecstatic utterances that they call Charismatic tongues is NOT the proof being genuinely SAVED. It is sincerely confessing sins and repenting, and out of a DEEP God given LOVE for HIM, surrendering and receiving HIM as LORD and Master, that is the genuine proof of Salvation.

Prophesying by the Spirit of God is not proof of eternal salvation either. Balaam did it. So did Saul, the king. Caiaphas prophesied while plotting to have Jesus murdered.

Matthew 7:13-23 (ESV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

This is an important passage to keep in mind. Not everyone who claims to be a prophet or does miracles is someone worth following. Some are false prophets. But notice Jesus says that ye shall know them by their fruits. He doesn't say that if He's a prophet, He's false. He does not say that you will know him by what time period he prophesies in.

Matthew 23
[SUP]34 [/SUP]Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Jesus said those words. So He was not condemning all prophets as false. Jesus also said that he that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophets reward. Ephesians 4 shows that after the ascension Jesus gave prophets to the church. We see references to church prophets in Acts and I Corinthians.

Paul wrote in I Thessalonians 5,
Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.

When it comes to prophesyings, we are to hear and discern, not just assume they are false. We aren't to accept them without proving them either. The book of Acts and I Corinthians shows the apostles and later certain deacons (possibly, some say the seven were elders) and later certain regular members of the body of Christ were able to do miracles by the grace of God. There are genuine miracles and there are lying signs and wonders.

The Bible teaches us to reject the false, but not to reject the true. We aren't supposed to say to the brother who God has gifted to work miracles, "I have no need of thee." Doing so is divisive.




I have had several in the past bitterly say to me, "Oh, so you are just one of those Lordship Salvationists."

If they mean, that I think one has to repent and receive HIM out of LOVE, as Lord and Master, in order to be SAVED and Born Again? YES I AM ONE OF THOSE. What I mean by that is, that kind of Faith, is a Work of the Holy Spirit, and not an intellectual decision. It is part of the free Gift that comes by the GRACE of GOD. You cannot do that Without the Holy Spirit being in you. Conviction, Repentance, and submitting out of LOVE FOR JESUS CHRIST, to HIS Lordship, is all a Work of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 5:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

1 John 4:7 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.[/QUOTE]

 

[VCO]

. . .
I do not worry about your salvation because you do not believe in manifesting the gift of holy spirit - I ask that the salvation of those who believe in manifesting the gift of holy spirit not be questioned. Thanks.

1 John 4:7 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

1 John 4:12 (ESV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:20 (ESV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

John 5:24 (HCSB) [SUP]24 [/SUP] “I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.

John 6:47 (HCSB)
[SUP]47 [/SUP] “I assure you: Anyone who believes has eternal life.

1 John 5:11 (NKJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.


NOT in manifesting the Charismatic experience.


Colossians 2:13 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

 

[stonesoffire]

Wolf:

Yes Stone I read acts. To whom are Acts 1,4-5 is said?

Stones:
They. We don't know for sure how many, but there are those named in one verse, but 120 according to verse 15 received the baptism initially.

Wolf:
To the electet apostels! They had a special task. We know from Thomas that he has been in India f.e..

stones:

well, yes, they were chosen to be His disciples. What does it matter that Thomas went to India?

Wolf:
We can not simply take all what Jesus said to the apostels convey to us today!

stones:

please provide a list of what we shouldn't believe.

Wolf
In the time of acts we find 3 different people groups in israel. Jews, Heathen (romans) and Samaritans

Stones:
I corrected that for you. Or autocorrect did. Ok.


Wolf:
The events of given the Holy Spirit to the people we have 4 times. In Acts 2, 8, 10 and 19.

stones:
not looking so will take your word for it.

Wolf:
In acts 2 we find at pentecost the partfulfillment of Joel 2 and a proof for the jews that the Holy Spirit came to the followers of Christ. And the expection of the jews was that the Holy Spirit is only for them. In Acts 8 we read that also the samaritians which are more to see as an enemy to the jews, also received the Holy Spirit. And it was to see for the people, so that it was a proof to the Jews that it is gods will. In Acts 10 we read that God has prepared Peter first to accept that the Holy Spirit is also given for the heathen. And so given as it was in acts 2 at pentecost. Also this was a proof for the jews, that this was fom God. In acts 19 we find a 4th event.

We read from the disciples from John the Baptist, which did not know about the Holy Spirit. So they recivied it and it is recordet also as an proof that the Holy Spirit is for all believers.

If I simply read this chapters it is clear to me why it is mentioned. I dont need to search for a meaning behind and also I cant create a new doctrine from this events.

If the doctrine from the 2nd baptising and as proof speaking in tongues would be biblical, than we would find easily a proof for this there and also a practice in the churchhistory. But we cant find without reading something in the text and createing a new meaning.

Stones:

Water baptism which is after repentance from sin is the first baptism. What I said was that the disciples received what Paul calls the Spirit of Christ after He breathed on them before His ascension. He said receive ye my Holy Spirit. He was leaving, He anoints them and tells them to wait for the promise of the Father.

On the day of Pentecost 120 assembling together are praying.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

The first baptism is the water of repentance. The inner witness, Spirit of Christ, new birth.
The second baptism is from Jesus Himself to His body.

Some receive in two experiences, and some in one. Both are seen in scripture.

What I see as the differences now....the Jews were taught of being born again. It's nothing new to them. They were baptized in water after repentance and turning to God. That's what we see as the preparation for the Spirit of Christ. John said one was coming that was greater than the baptism that he preached. This was for Jews only. And some sects baptized daily for cleansing.

Paul speaks to a group later in Acts who had only Johns baptism, so he rebaptizes them in the name of Jesus, and then lays hands on them and they receive the baptism of Holy Spirit.

Today, we baptize in the name of Jesus after the preaching of the gospel, and some receive this baptism here at the water, some have hands laid on them, and some no intervention of man at all.

I see three levels in the temple. There actually were in the physical temple.

Passover
Pentecost
Tabernacles.

Much to this.

 

[stonesoffire]

I said I didn't want to post here to debate Charismatics or Pentecostals, because my experience, ever since the early 80's in over a 100 such discussions, has been that the VAST majority of those discussions with them, just lead to Charismatics and Pentecostals getting bitter and furiously mad. They usually end up showing contempt for us by yelling or using LARGE TYPE, and almost always degenerate to hurling name calling insults. I will Agree to Disagree with any of them, before love and respect goes out the window. I said, I post here to encourage the non-charismatics in OUR BELIEFS, and to show the younger ones of us, that OUR BELIEFS can be supported BIBLICALLY.

There are a few Charismatic and Pentecostal exceptions here who have proven they can discuss this subject, presenting their beliefs, WITHOUT showing BITTERNESS and CONTEMPT for those of us, who interpret these Scripture like the rest of mainline Protestants. AND, those FEW have proven that they can do this while maintaining LOVE for all the brethren, both charismatics and non-charismatics. Those FEW, I am comfortable discussing with them, why our interpretations and understandings are opposite, because I trust them to maintain mutual respect and Christ-like love, which is a two way street.

Well, VCO, I am not bitter nor do I hold you in contempt. I said you are working with the enemy against the baptism of Holy Spirit, but I believe you are in ignorance or not understanding. I didn't call you ignorant by the way. That's different. The problem is that I have experienced it; and it's scriptural. There's nothing in the Word that you have been trying to interject with presidente in posts though. That subject is too intellectual for me anyway. But, I am offended when you say that we who number in the ? who knows...all experiencing the same scriptural happening, are speaking pagan babbling. So how is this Christlike on your end?