Dualism, the doctrine of a disassociated identity

[InSpiritInTruth]

I am going to post Romans 6 to show we can in fact be made free from sin that works in our members....

Romans 6 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
​

 

[PeterJens]

Romans 7 shows the two conflicts that are going on in a believer. One is not the real them ( not their true nature ). The flesh even though it stems from the corrupted Adamic influence in the world is now not the real us.

I think this is a wrong model and miss-understanding automatic systems and learnt responses
that dominate our lives. These are set through our lives, which can be reset, but form the foundation
of our personalities.

Paul is describing intellectually understanding the Lord and desiring to behave in a certain
way and discovering his life memory caused other behaviour patterns. This is the old man,
which is from our life before Christ.

With ministry of the Holy Spirit, obedience to Jesus commands, openning and hearts and
responding to love and in love, we change who we are. A point comes when we are a
complete new creation, but we will never know when that happens, we are just called
to walk.

The dualistic view of life is wrong because it believes we are perfect in a new spirit,
we just have to realise it, rather than the plant God has planted in our hearts needs
to grow and rebuild us. Now you could argue the two models are close except the
dualistic view does not believe in behaviour change and seeing the commandments
as a glorious walk with the Lord. So they tend to recognise the failure and stay
fixed in a time warp, without power to overcome.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

People need to understand why Paul said he spoke after the manner of men below in verse 19, it was because he was trying to relate to the condition of those who were yet in the flesh.

People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19 [SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:”

 

[stonesoffire]

Here's the context or Romans 7.

Romans 7:14-24 KJV
[14] For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
[15] For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[16] If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[18] For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[19] For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[20] Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[21] I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

All PRESENT tense speaking of RIGHT THEN when he wrote it.

KJV

we all have this struggle, true...but why stop here? This is past for Paul ends with his mind renewed and declares then...thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

is This not the working out of our salvation to coming to the end of the struggle and resting then to what we started out with? Faith in God for all things. From this place then comes Sonship. Know Him and the power of His resurrection life.

 

[stonesoffire]

People need to understand why Paul said he spoke after the manner of men below in verse 19, it was because he was trying to relate to the condition of those who were yet in the flesh.

People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19 [SUP]19[/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:”

What have you been born into Isit? Flesh or spirit? One has died and the other remains. But the power of living is always grace.

 

[stonesoffire]

Wasn't Paul alone with the Lord for many years before he actually began to minister?

So a new babe in Christ needs to grow. If it took Paul 14 yrs., give yourselves time. Mercy self. God does. He loves us much more than human love can ever do.

 

[stonesoffire]

I think this is a wrong model and miss-understanding automatic systems and learnt responses
that dominate our lives. These are set through our lives, which can be reset, but form the foundation
of our personalities.

Paul is describing intellectually understanding the Lord and desiring to behave in a certain
way and discovering his life memory caused other behaviour patterns. This is the old man,
which is from our life before Christ.

With ministry of the Holy Spirit, obedience to Jesus commands, openning and hearts and
responding to love and in love, we change who we are. A point comes when we are a
complete new creation, but we will never know when that happens, we are just called
to walk.

The dualistic view of life is wrong because it believes we are perfect in a new spirit,
we just have to realise it, rather than the plant God has planted in our hearts needs
to grow and rebuild us. Now you could argue the two models are close except the
dualistic view does not believe in behaviour change and seeing the commandments
as a glorious walk with the Lord. So they tend to recognise the failure and stay
fixed in a time warp, without power to overcome.

I hear works in this post Peter. When you see......perceive, understand, have a revelation of etc......you will be like Him. By Revelation through Holy Spirit of His nature towards mankind.

 

[stonesoffire]

Ok Posthuman here is that study on Romans 7,which I wrote about the 2 laws at work, and I'm also going to post Romans 6 in the following post to show you can indeed be set free from the law of sin and death that works in our members.....

I have come across a grave error in my internet travels, and that error is in thinking that the law of God is a curse, and is the same Law as the law of sin and death. But Paul makes clear in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin. So what is the law of sin and death? I compare the law of sin and death to be much like the law of gravity; we are all firstborn under it naturally by reason of Adams original sin.

Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” As it is also written in Romans 5:19 “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,” So as it is also written, by nature we were the children of wrath Ephesians 2:3 and as by the judgement of one for sin was unto condemnation Romans 5:16 as the wages of sin is death= being under the law of sin and death.

We know this condemnation of sin was already in the world before the Law of Moses because death already reigned in the world. Romans 5:13 Notice we are told death reigned Romans 5:14“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”

That is an important clue in understanding what it means to be under the law of sin and death. When you are under the law of sin you are a servant of sin, like sin being the Devils desire ruling over you as it is written in Romans 5:21 “That as sin hath reigned unto death…”

People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19 [SUP]19 [/SUP]I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh:”

What Paul was showing in Romans 7 was the struggle and enmity between the law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit, these 2 spirits and 2 natures are contrary to one another. Notice in Romans 7 we are shown 2 laws, one is the law of sin and death, the other is the law of God. We already saw in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin, now notice Paul confirms in verse 13 the law of God is not death either.

Romans 7:12-25 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In the above we see the 2 laws (flesh vs. Spirit) warring against one another, but are we to remain in this state of captivity and bondage being under the law of sin and death? Scripture gives us the answer to this as well in Romans 8:1-4 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

What we see in the above is walking after the flesh is serving sin and =being under the law of sin and death. Thus when we are born again of the Spirit we are no longer walking in the lusts of the flesh. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” So it is the Spirit of Christ (law of the Spirit of Life) that sets us free from the first nature that desires to walk in the flesh and serve sin.

Now some might say this does not mean we are set free from sin and death, just that we are set free from the law of God. But that is not what is being said above by Paul. To what benefit would it be to be only set free from a holy law, and not be set free from sin and death? All that would amount to is a bunch of lawless sinners. Besides that, the Gentiles were never even under the Law of Moses to begin with, so how can you be set free from a law that you were never even under? Makes no sense.

But the law that both Jews and Gentiles are firstborn under, is the law of sin and death. Romans 3:9 “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;”

So hopefully you will see in this that it is sin you truly need to be set free from by faith in Jesus Christ, because a servant of sin abides not in the house forever. Peace. ​

Good, until your last sentence. It's already finished.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

What have you been born into Isit? Flesh or spirit? One has died and the other remains. But the power of living is always grace.

When you are born again you are born of the Spirit, and you are no longer flesh. I've tried to explain this in another post but they are dull of hearing as usual.

 

[stonesoffire]

Joh 8:35 And the servantabideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abidethever.

the difference between those born of God, and those not. We are either a slave under law, or a Son who inherits the house.

Finished. Believe it.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Good, until your last sentence. It's already finished.

What's already finished?

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Joh 8:35 And the servantabideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abidethever.

the difference between those born of God, and those not. We are either a slave under law, or a Son who inherits the house.

Finished. Believe it.

It's a slave under sin=servant of sin

 

[stonesoffire]

When you are born again you are born of the Spirit, and you are no longer flesh. I've tried to explain this in another post but they are dull of hearing as usual.

I agree with you InSpirit. But then you point to action of sin versus faith that sin has no more power because of the work of Father giving once the sacrifice.

He doesnt set someone free and then place them back under law. We are free in Spirit which is greater than our humanity.

We move with Him through the leading of His Spirit.

We all have faults or weaknesses to overcome. That's the weakness of our human nature, this is true so sinless perfection will never be this side of our eternal life. But He knows our weaknesses and doesn't consider that against us because the blood of Jesus is on that mercy seat before God the Father in heaven. No condemnation ever to those who walk in Spirit or place their faith in what we are through Him. Innocent.

This has great power! To know we are free forever makes our will want to do His will and fills us with the peace and joy of the Holy Spirit.

Do you see?

 

[dcontroversal]

Wasn't Paul alone with the Lord for many years before he actually began to minister?

So a new babe in Christ needs to grow. If it took Paul 14 yrs., give yourselves time. Mercy self. God does. He loves us much more than human love can ever do.

I heard that...he does not even believe the disciples of Jesus had been born of the spirit when Jesus speaks to their weak flesh in the garden...even though they had given fruit worthy of repentance, been immersed and called out by Jesus as disciples....

 

[stonesoffire]

It's a slave under sin=servant of sin

Are you a slave of the house of God and under the law of Moses? Or have you inherited heaven, the house of God through faith in Jesus Christ?

This is the picture of the hard taskmaster that Jesus spoke of. He isn't this and never was. Israel itself had to have faith in blood for sins.

 

[stonesoffire]

I heard that...he does not even believe the disciples of Jesus had been born of the spirit when Jesus speaks to their weak flesh in the garden...even though they had given fruit worthy of repentance, been immersed and called out by Jesus as disciples....

the thief comes to steal and destroy. If you knew the struggles I've had....

inspiritintruth has much understanding. I see it.

 

[stonesoffire]

What's already finished?

Working to please God. The law of sin and death. We are now of the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus!

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Are you a slave of the house of God and under the law of Moses? Or have you inherited heaven, the house of God through faith in Jesus Christ?

This is the picture of the hard taskmaster that Jesus spoke of. He isn't this and never was. Israel itself had to have faith in blood for sins.

Jesus was not talking about being under the law of Moses when referring to those who commit sin as being servants of sin. Neither was Paul talking about the law of Moses when he was speaking of the law of sin and death.

If someone has been made from sin they will not continue to keep on sinning.

 

[Grace777x70]

The gospel of the grace and love of the Lord Jesus Christ speaks of better things.

The son does remain forever in the house.


John 8:35-36 (NASB)
[SUP]35 [/SUP] "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.

[SUP]36 [/SUP] "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Once we are in Christ - we become sons/daughters of God.

Galatians 3:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

[SUP]7 [/SUP] Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.


1 John 3:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I encourage us to start to believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ. It is "good news".

If we see ourselves as children of God we will walk as children of our Father and our true nature in our new creation will transform our minds to reflect that nature outwardly in our behavior powered by the Spirit of God inside of us.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Working to please God. The law of sin and death. We are now of the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus!

Those who commit sin are still under the law of sin and death being servants of sin. When Jesus makes one free from sin then they will no longer be servants of sin, but rather servants of righteousness. We are servants to whom we obey, either of sin unto death, or obedience unto righteousness through Jesus Christ.