Willie, I am one of the few here who hold to the fact that the wages of sin is death. Are you also an annihilationist?
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Jesus wasn't experiencing "punishment from God" on that cross. He was experiencing all the horrible feelings we went through before we surrendered that part of us, and what we still go through because we often won't let go of sin....... And not just our horrid emotions, but those of billions of people who have and will live on the Earth.
Simple 'death' wasn't the anguish. Rather, it was becoming sin, and not letting the alien enemy — sin — get back out of Him.... until He could take it to the grave with Him, and leave it there.
Simple 'death' wasn't the anguish. Rather, it was becoming sin, and not letting the alien enemy — sin — get back out of Him.... until He could take it to the grave with Him, and leave it there.
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If sin is still in the world then Jesus did not take it to the grave to be gone forever as you seemed to say just minutes ago. Some people say Satan is bound now, too. I am not one of them. I also thought Jesus was resurrected in a glorified body. Isn't that why He was unrecognizable to those who actually knew Him best? Are we not also to be given new bodies when we pass from death to life, when the mortal is clothed in immortality (rather kills the belief that the soul is already immortal as many teach) and the corruptible puts on the incorruptible?
I would like to see some of the many Scriptures you say exist denying
God's wrath fell upon Jesus. Still, He said it for our benefit, right?
Does the nonbeliever pass into the second death following judgement, or are they tortured forever after?
Look at it from Satan's eyes:
"That fool, Jesus, thought these simple humans would accept Him. But, LOOK, they are actually murdering Him. How dumb of Him to trust them. NOW is my chance to take over, by BECOMING Him.... even though He has resisted and thwarted me for 33 years. Go get Him Boys! Every single one of you go right into His body and mind. Take over. BECOME God!"
Sort of the way some people have underestimated a certain human being recently, Satan underestimated God for a second time. He thought he had Him. That He was defeated, down and out. But God elected Him King and Savior.
A poor analogy, but quite illustrative. LOL
"That fool, Jesus, thought these simple humans would accept Him. But, LOOK, they are actually murdering Him. How dumb of Him to trust them. NOW is my chance to take over, by BECOMING Him.... even though He has resisted and thwarted me for 33 years. Go get Him Boys! Every single one of you go right into His body and mind. Take over. BECOME God!"
Sort of the way some people have underestimated a certain human being recently, Satan underestimated God for a second time. He thought he had Him. That He was defeated, down and out. But God elected Him King and Savior.
A poor analogy, but quite illustrative. LOL
Since most of what we understand of "judgement" comes from Second-Temple Judaism's inculcation and adoption of a never-before-imagined Egyptian theology of the afterlife (something the Jews didn't even consider in their original worship of God), I would have to say all I really know is that whatever is beyond death is what God planned for me (us) from before the beginning of time.
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BeyondET
Guest
Show where the scripture says God brought wrath upon His Son, it doesn't say it like that at all, now some take some verses and assume it means that like these below but that's not what it's saying..
as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live
Or this one that says saved from the wrath of God through Jesus..
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! Rom 5:9
I know some people have been turned off from the gospel because they thought God killed Jesus. Never mind that Jesus said: “No one takes my life from me, but I lay it down of my own accord” (John 10:18).
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FreeNChrist
Guest
I like that indeed, not sure why people think Jesus was here only in human flesh form but yet his mind wasn't and didn't have a need to ponder on things while in such pain...
Not sure you are getting the meaning of the phrase. It speaks to Jesus assuming all of the consequences of man's sin in order to heal all.
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Ariel82
Guest
Wait that isn't logical. Who was David taking to when he plead with God to turn His face back to him?
The phrase doesn't imply that God was no longer present but that He no longer had the hedge of protect from the enemy and allowed Satan's attack upon Jesus to deceive people and have Him crucified.
So when God "turns His face from us" he allows the enemy to attack and allows certain test to happen like Job.
This does not mean we are guilty of sin, but it does help grow our faith to yield fruits like patience and righteousness. Perhaps not just ours but others who watch as we grow and stand strong in the Lord.
Would you still love God if you felt His presence was absent or would you get drunk with your friends and beat your servants?
Yes, sin is still in the world. Jesus didn't take Satan and the influence and temptation to sin to the grave. He took the ruling dominance over, and consequence of, the sin of anyone who would believe He did that. Satan is still right here tempting and hoping to get people NOT to trust in what Jesus did. Sometimes he seems to be successful in keep many from accepting what was already done for them.
I stand by God being loving, just, and merciful. Jesus promised life ever after to those who believe on Him. All of Scripture testifies of Him. He created everything for Himself, for His own glory. He holds the keys to life and death. Abraham saw the day of Jesus and was glad. It would be quite a, oh what is the word? Um, atheists love it haha. The dissonance, is it intellectual dissonance? Abraham had already been promised numerous descendants through Isaac. Do you think he believed in a resurrection? Certainly some believed in a resurrection through Him. It is why He tarried when Lazarus fell ill, so Jesus could call him out of the grave, four days after his passing, and have more come to belief, and wasn't it the week before He Himself was to be put to death? When were the Psalms written? Psalm 49:15 God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me.
Yes, and Jesus is God, so some say He committed suicide. But I don't care what non-believers say here and now, when I am asking for the Scriptures that explicitly state the wrath of God did not fall upon Jesus. Jesus asks at one point, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? True He was addressing the religious leaders whom He viewed as a den of vipers etc but the wrath of God is a well known tread on the wheel of Scriptural Truths. I am not one of those who purports that God is going to torture and torment forever after those who refuse Him. When you get right down to it, how could anyone come face to face with God and refuse Him? The demonic influence would have to be so strong to hold such sway. Yes, Jesus' blood saves us from the wrath of God as the verse you provided from Romans so clearly puts forth. I never said Scripture says the wrath of God fell on Him, but I was just told that plenty of Scriptures say otherwise. I have not been provided one yet.
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BeyondET
Guest
Your talking about David who wasn't sinless as Jesus was so that comparison is not logical... A prime example on context context matters even in the bible..
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BeyondET
Guest
It's quite simple scripture doesn't say God did not bring wrath upon Jesus nor does it say he did that's the point.. Your listening to what you have learned through the hearing of others...
Ex 33:17-23
17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
KJV
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Ariel82
Guest
Well...just trying to discuss the phrase. Not sure if I would agree or disagree that God turned His face from Christ on the Cross....kind of a side topic.
More interested in understanding what David meant by "God turning his face from me" and if it happens to us today.
I was just told there were lots of Scriptures saying that the wrath of God did not fall on Jesus. If there are none that actually say that, okay. Jesus became sin for us. Does the wrath of God not fall upon sin? It makes sense to me that it does. Jesus took the punishment for sin upon Himself; He Who knew no sin became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God.
On another somewhat related note, people have been talking about God hating this or that thing, including people who work iniquity, and bringing up Esau and Jacob, Esau have I hated etc God decided this before the boys were born... but could not hate simply be a removal of love? In the same way that darkness is the lack of light. When God removes His love from the equation of anyone's existence, what is one left in the presence of? Darkness, and workers of iniquity, and the forces that work to see such things brought to pass. How grateful we all shall be when those forces are finally laid to rest, in the lake of fire, where even our works that do not align with the will and purposes of God shall be burnt away. Neither shall there be need for a planetary body to cast light upon us! For the Light that is the true Light shall be among us. I cannot help but look forward to that time, when sin and death no longer beset us.