What causes God to hide his face?

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Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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The term or concept that God is "hiding His face" means God is allowing you to suffer for a spell.

The why is debatable: chastenment for your sins to produce righteousnes, Letting the fullness of others sins to ripen before they are punished, testing of your faith to produce patience, etc.

Some people say that God doesn't do this anymore. That the way God relates with His people has changed, but I have to disagree. Most of the objections are based on conjure of what they believe the phrase implies, instead of examining how it was used in scripture. God turn His face from the nation of Israel and allowed other nations to conquer them. They were punished until they cried out to God For deliverance. God sent prophets and Judges to deliver them from the hands of their oppressors.

How does that relate to us? We are not Israel, a nation to be conquered. God does not deliver us into the hands of the enemy to be punished. However, God didn't really deliver Israel into the hands of her enemies either. He took His hedge of protection from her. Allowed the demonic forces they worshiped instead of Him have control of their lives. He allowed them to suffer the consequences of their choices.

So what do you think? Does God still hide his face from people today?

Can you tell the difference in your life when God's face is upon you and when it's not?

Have you ever had a hedge of protection around your life and recognize God's grace that kept you from harm even though you deserved punishment?

Hi Ariel,

I just recently finished reading Ezekiel, well actually studying it. And I disagree with your statement that God didn't really deliver Israel into the hands of her enemies. Ezekiel goes into great detail about how God did bring death and starvation on His people Israel. He did bring the Babylonian king in to destroy their homes, their land, their temple. It's a very sad read and will break your heart, but God did do it. You will be left with no doubt about it if you read Ezekiel.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Grace 777, We have a failure to communicate. Its like we are talking about two totally difference subjects and your assumptions are too numerous to tackle in a single post.

But we can cover the basics.

1. Yes God will always give mercy and grace to those with a repentant heart. Even in the OT this is true.

2. How did you come to the conclusion that when God "hides His face" he is also "withholding His favor"?

3. Did you read the article or even the Isaiah 54? What are your thoughts on either one of those?

The whole term is mis-leading and I have heard it preached many times in the past and it is IMO - against the whole gospel message of Christ's work.

I tried to read the article but the black coloring is too much of a mess for me to read...sorry. Maybe I'll see if I can copy it and put it in a more readable format.

I love Isaiah 54. God is simple saying that He did forsake them for a minute but the reality is now that Christ has done His completed work - things are changed.

Look at what God says now after the work of Christ in Isaiah 53. Isaiah 54 says the complete opposite of "God hiding His face from us in Christ"

Isaiah 54:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "In an outburst of anger I hid My face from you for a moment, But with everlasting lovingkindness I will have compassion on you," Says the LORD your Redeemer.

Isaiah 54:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] "For this is like the days of Noah to Me, When I swore that the waters of Noah Would not flood the earth again; So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you Nor will I rebuke you.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] "For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake, But My lovingkindness will not be removed from you, And My covenant of peace will not be shaken," Says the LORD who has compassion on you.

Isaiah 54:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If anyone fiercely assails you it will not be from Me. Whoever assails you will fall because of you.

No weapon - including any wrong ideas or thoughts that are contrary to what Christ has done will prosper - why? - because Christ Himself is our righteousness.

Isaiah 54:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.

 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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I gather you really like that idea of God turning away from people, so be it then have it your way..
Beyond,

I don't believe that's what she's saying at all. She's trying to understand what it all means. It's like
thoroughly going over a biblical concept and how it applies today.
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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1. So what do you think? Does God still hide his face from people today?

2. Can you tell the difference in your life when God's face is upon you and when it's not?

3. Have you ever had a hedge of protection around your life and recognize God's grace that kept you from harm even though you deserved punishment?

Ariel, what would be your definition of God hiding His face from people. Also do you mean believers or just people in general. What does it look like to you for God to turn His face away from you? Do you believe He has turned His face away from you?
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Grace 777, We have a failure to communicate. Its like we are talking about two totally difference subjects and your assumptions are too numerous to tackle in a single post.

But we can cover the basics.

1. Yes God will always give mercy and grace to those with a repentant heart. Even in the OT this is true.

2. How did you come to the conclusion that when God "hides His face" he is also "withholding His favor"?

3. Did you read the article or even the Isaiah 54? What are your thoughts on either one of those?
Opps....I forgot to answer the first 2 questions...I apologize.

1) It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance - not Him hiding His face. How can we have confidence to come boldly to Him if we think He is "hiding His face from us"? The whole concept in the New Covenant is inconsistent with the whole gospel of the grace of God in Christ message.

2) I got that from when you said that God withholds His help from us to let us suffer. That is with-holding His grace to me. Perhaps you have a different view...:)
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
2,824
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Opps....I forgot to answer the first 2 questions...I apologize.

1) It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance - not Him hiding His face. How can we have confidence to come boldly to Him if we think He is "hiding His face from us"? The whole concept in the New Covenant is inconsistent with the whole gospel of the grace of God in Christ message.

2) I got that from when you said that God withholds His help from us to let us suffer. That is with-holding His grace to me. Perhaps you have a different view...:)


Actually when we suffer it's His grace upon us.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Perhaps you have been prejudice to the term because of sermons you have heard Grace?

Will have to study Ezekiel again desert_rose.
I just think of the verse that says people accuse God of tempting men to sin, when it is really the men's lust and desires that lead them astray.

I don't believe God told Israel's enemies to enslaved them but allowed Israel's own sins and actions to bring about their own downfall.

I believed that while His face was upon them, they were protected from their enemies. Even though they deserved destruction, they had a hedge of protection like Job's children had.

However when God "hide his face" the hedge was removed. When people call out to God, he "shines His face upon them" and sends a deliverer, He sends His Holy Spirit.

I believe this happens in everyone's life at least once. It is often this experience of "God hiding His face" that they realize they need a savior and can't do it alone. Before that they might have had the false belief that their good works were the reason for their good fortune.

Again God doesn't hide His face from people who are in trouble but those who are prideful, unrepentant sinners who are enjoying the luxuries of the world and seeking after their own lusts and desires. People who will shed innocent blood and justify it to themselves because it gets them what they want. Or the Pharisee. Or the,hypocrite.

Those are the type of people that God "hides His face from"

Not out of fear or because he is helpless, but because He has secret plans to bring them low and break their stubborn hearts of pride. So that they either repent and turn back to Him with humble and contrite hearts OR they curse God and die.
 
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Nov 22, 2015
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If Jesus pulls himself away from a crowd to have alone time, I don't think that would qualify as God hiding his face.
I agree....

A better look into Jesus life to see if "He withholds Hid face from the disciples" would be when Jesus was asleep in the boat and the storm came.

Jesus didn't say "I am not going to help you so that you will "learn" something". I am with-holding my face from you until you repent.

What did Jesus do? He spoke to the storm to quiet down - then He chastised the disciples with His words for their un-belief.

Or..when Peter started to sink when he was walking on the water.

Jesus didn't say "Peter, I am going to turn My face from you because you took your eyes off Me and now look at the mess you are in." - you need to sink more until you learn some things and repent for your unbelief.

No, Jesus "immediately stretched out His hand and took hold of him." Matt. 14:30

Then Jesus chastised him after He saved him - "Why did you doubt?" Jesus chastises us with His words - not by with-holding His face from us.

Jesus interaction in the gospels is perfect theology on how God interacts with us in the New Covenant now that we are in Christ. Jesus is the exact representation of the goodness and nature of God. No one knows the father said Jesus - but the Son has revealed Him.

Even the Father Himself said 'This is my beloved Son - hear Him."
 
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Ariel82

Guest
I will agree that it is a phenomen that happens more often before we are born again and as we are being trained by the Law to be lead to Christ. For the Law itself is not evil though evil men will twist and corrupt it for their own power struggles. The Law is to lead people to Christ, to the realization of how much grace and forgiveness God has given us. How much we should give others.

When we are able to learn to listen to the Holy Spirit within us, we can recognize when our actions and thoughts are displeasing to God.

Timeout works for a small child became they want to be in your presence. However it doesn't work as well for a teenager.

So Does God hide His face from believers who have received the Holy Spirit?

No I don't believe so. I believe He has other means to communicate. He gives us dreams. He sends people into our lives with His messages. His Holy Spirit warns us that we are straying from His path.

What happens if we don't listen? He chastens us.

Does God still turn His face from people today? Yes I believe God's face is NOT upon unbelievers. They are under the law. If they cry out to Him, He will answer and deliver them. However, until they accept the Gospel and Jesus as Savior, they will not get the blessing of having the in dwelling HOLY Spirit to guide and protect them. When they sin, God will turn His face away from them again.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
I agree....

A better look into Jesus life to see if "He withholds Hid face from the disciples" would be when Jesus was asleep in the boat and the storm came.

Jesus didn't say "I am not going to help you so that you will "learn" something". I am with-holding my face from you until you repent.

What did Jesus do? He spoke to the storm to quiet down - then He chastised the disciples with His words for their un-belief.

Or..when Peter started to sink when he was walking on the water.

Jesus didn't say "Peter, I am going to turn My face from you because you took your eyes off Me and now look at the mess you are in." - you need to sink more until you learn some things and repent for your unbelief.

No, Jesus "immediately stretched out His hand and took hold of him." Matt. 14:30

Then Jesus chastised him after He saved him - "Why did you doubt?" Jesus chastises us with His words - not by with-holding His face from us.

Jesus interaction in the gospels is perfect theology on how God interacts with us in the New Covenant now that we are in Christ. Jesus is the exact representation of the goodness and nature of God. No one knows the father said Jesus - but the Son has revealed Him.

Even the Father Himself said 'This is my beloved Son - hear Him."
Straw man.

The disciples were seeking help from Jesus, why would He turn His face from them?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Luke 18
Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Proverbs 16:5 Everyone who is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; Assuredly, he will not be unpunished.

James 4:6 But He gives us more grace. This is why it says: “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.“
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Straw man.

The disciples were seeking help from Jesus, why would He turn His face from them?
Jesus doesn't turn His face from them because they belong to Him just like we belong to Christ now only in a deeper way - we are actually one spirit with Him now - joined as one.

This Old Covenant teaching that God hides Himself from us is so contrary to the whole gospel message. I can understand that we can "perceive" He is hiding because of our emotions and bad teaching that mixes OT concepts with the New Covenant and thus our thinking is skewed.

Anyway, it's obvious that some people have different views and maybe it is in the "wording" that things can get mis-interpreted too.

I think I will just leave it in the hands of the Holy Spirit and trust that He will give us all light and understanding as He reveals Christ to us.

I do see that the thought of it is for the good to come as we rely on God because of hardships that do come for various reasons.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Ariel82 said:
How do we seek God's face?
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Arial82 said:
I am really interested in the answers to question 3.

How can you tell if you are being protected by God?
Yes, God has His hedge of protection around me. I know this by faith:

Jude 1:

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
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If you answer NO to question one, you might as well skip question 2.

I am really interested in the answers to question 3.

How can you tell if you are being protected by God?

we can tell ONLY by faith.

over the years of being a christan i've discovred (by faith) that Jesus is always good to His promises., He will never leave or forsake me. the obstacle to walking in His promises is my faith in Him. do i trust Him or the world and what i "see and feel"?
God will not force me to trust Him so if i chose not to trust Him.,its me., not Him who walks away from dwelling in the secret place of the most high. Jesus secured my position but its me who must walk there by faith so i will be in the dwelling place He provides so i am abiding in the shadow of the Almighty.

i've learned these things we have r seen and experienced through FAITH and then we walk it out in time and space here. first believe and then we see. believe what He promised and then see it worked in and through my life.

 
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Ariel82

Guest
Had thoughts about these scriptures but forgot them...will just post and come back if I remember.

Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood afar off. Then they said to Moses, “You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”
*
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And Moses said to the people, “Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin.” So the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near the thick darkness where God was.

But whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak with Him, he would take the veil off until he came out; and he would come out and speak to the children of Israel whatever he had been commanded. And whenever the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses’ face shone, then Moses would put the veil on his face again, until he went in to speak with Him.


But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

****I think I was researching the significance of "face" in the Bible and the difference between how God dealt with the Israelites and new born again believers.**
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Ariel82,

Have you ever looked at Romans 1:21-32 and how the behavior of the unbeliever draws him/her further and further from God to the point that they become reprobate?


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


They know God (or know of Him), but they do not glorify Him and they become unthankful. Then they become empty in their thinking and reasonings.

Result: foolish heart becomes darkened.



Rom 1:22-24 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


Those whose foolish heart is darkened profess themselves to be wise. In reality they become fools. They change the glory of God into an image.

Result: God gives them over to uncleanness and they then dishonor their own bodies amongst themselves.



rom 1:25-26 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:


Those who are given over to uncleanness change the truth of God into a lie; they worship the creation more than the Creator.

Result: God gives them over to vile affections and they change the natural into that which is against nature.



Rom 1:27-28 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


Once given over to vile affections they work that which is unseemly and receive in themselves the adequate recompence of their error.

Result: God gives them over to a reprobate mind because they do not like to retain God in their knowledge.



Romans 1:29-32 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Those who are reprobate in mind are filled with all these horrible behaviors. They seek out and have pleasure in those who behave in the same manner.

Is it any wonder why believers who want nothing more than to live in the light of the presence of God are so reviled?


And please note, people walk away from God and at some point, the further and further they walk away, God lets go (He gives them up). At each stage, there is a boundary which is crossed by the person who is given up.

Before you claim I am not on point in regards to the OP, please take a moment to reflect on the passage in Romans and how it might relate to the issue of God hiding His face. Thank you.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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My thinking is that God "hiding His face" is a mechanism to get His people to turn from their foolishness before they cross another line wherein God has to give them up to further and further foolishness.
 
B

BeyondET

Guest
Matt 5:22
“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery