-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D
Hello Miktre..
Maybe I was not clear about my vision.. on the endtimes.. Or, maybe you missed my point on it.. I never told you that I believe in a pré-rapture like where the discussion is going about.
Yes I believe in a rapture.. like is written after Chapter Mt 24, namely 25. And how it is written in Tes 4.
I hope that you believe that too..
And if you think that your view is the only 'honest' view on a case.. on a case what only gave a view in the future.
-
But assume I believe in a pre-rapture.....
The exegesis is more than only Mt 24.
But ok.. I will look at your arguments..
Maybe I was not clear about my vision.. on the endtimes.. Or, maybe you missed my point on it.. I never told you that I believe in a pré-rapture like where the discussion is going about.
Yes I believe in a rapture.. like is written after Chapter Mt 24, namely 25. And how it is written in Tes 4.
I hope that you believe that too..
And if you think that your view is the only 'honest' view on a case.. on a case what only gave a view in the future.
-
But assume I believe in a pre-rapture.....
The exegesis is more than only Mt 24.
But ok.. I will look at your arguments..
D
Well about Mt 24, Jesus isn't talking about the rapture.. here but at his second coming. And about the destroying of Jerusalem in 70 AD. So thanks for the sharing of Mt 24, but it was to long to read.. and it cost my to much time.. The Lord didn't told it with a purpose.. Because He would tell Paul it in 1Cor 15.
But when Paul wrote the mystery.. he meant actually he got a word of the Lord Him self. So, it mean too.. the Lord Jesus didn't mention it with purpose.
What are the arguments?
Well I will start first with Mt 25:1,6
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened to ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom
6 And at midnight there was a cry made: ‘Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him..
we have to understand, that the main subject is do we have oil? is the Spirit burning? The Spirit is the only ticket to be with the Lord. We can see too.. that the virgins are walking to the Lord... when He come.. So this would be happen. Is that true? Yes.. because Paul write in 1Tes 4:15
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so will God bring with Him those also who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Is there a escape? Well we can read Lc 21 with Mt 24.. So we can read in Mt 24 24 things that is going to happen before the Lord comes.. And Mt 24 said: It hit anybody.. But Lc 21:36 said: Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
The next passage is;
John 14:1-4
1 Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.
First.. we have to understand.. the Lord is going to the Father.. to prepare a place for us.. and He will come to receive us.. When the Lord Jesus will come to reign..and there is no rapture.. there is a problem with this text. Because actually Jesus said here: I am going,but first I am coming back to pick you up.. actually it is just like is written in 1Tess 4, Mt 25.
On this moment there is no talking about the second coming of Jesus.. like is written in Mt 24. This passage is a passage of hope for the Christians. To look forward that the Lord will pick them up. But when we look at the second coming we can see that the Lord comes and put His feet on Mt Olive..So, when we have to look with a 'honest' eye.. before that the Lord comes back.. there is something happen before...that the Lord comes back..
And it will be happen before the 1000 year of peace..
Interesting is the Greek word Paralam'bano
The Greek-Dutch dictionary of this word said how it is written here in this context: to take up ...
Another argue:
1Cor 15:51-56
51 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
this is a mystery.. It is not a secret.. but the Lord Him self revealed it to Paul..
We have to understand some... because actually this is not an easy text.. Because what will happen... if there is no rapture?
If Jesus is coming back.. and He put His feet on the Mt Olive well.. the Bible teach us, in Isaiah, and Zach that we are mortal people.. The world isn't perfect (see for example Is 65:20, and Zach 14:17.. Here we aren't talking about the New Jerusalem.. But the old Jerusalem.. the city like it is now.
To understand everything clear and 'honest' we have to watch the at the OT.. and we have to watch the meaning of the Trumpet.. Or in the Hebrew it is called the Shofar...
I will go further on this subject an other time.. because I, if I am going to about this part... and the rapture.. I think the message would be to long. And I can show you a Jewish 'look' at it..
Is it possible a kind of rapture? Yes in my eye's it is possible.. when we looked at Henoch and Eliah. So yes it is possible...
But when Paul wrote the mystery.. he meant actually he got a word of the Lord Him self. So, it mean too.. the Lord Jesus didn't mention it with purpose.
What are the arguments?
Well I will start first with Mt 25:1,6
1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened to ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom
6 And at midnight there was a cry made: ‘Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him..
we have to understand, that the main subject is do we have oil? is the Spirit burning? The Spirit is the only ticket to be with the Lord. We can see too.. that the virgins are walking to the Lord... when He come.. So this would be happen. Is that true? Yes.. because Paul write in 1Tes 4:15
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so will God bring with Him those also who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Is there a escape? Well we can read Lc 21 with Mt 24.. So we can read in Mt 24 24 things that is going to happen before the Lord comes.. And Mt 24 said: It hit anybody.. But Lc 21:36 said: Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
The next passage is;
John 14:1-4
1 Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.
First.. we have to understand.. the Lord is going to the Father.. to prepare a place for us.. and He will come to receive us.. When the Lord Jesus will come to reign..and there is no rapture.. there is a problem with this text. Because actually Jesus said here: I am going,but first I am coming back to pick you up.. actually it is just like is written in 1Tess 4, Mt 25.
On this moment there is no talking about the second coming of Jesus.. like is written in Mt 24. This passage is a passage of hope for the Christians. To look forward that the Lord will pick them up. But when we look at the second coming we can see that the Lord comes and put His feet on Mt Olive..So, when we have to look with a 'honest' eye.. before that the Lord comes back.. there is something happen before...that the Lord comes back..
And it will be happen before the 1000 year of peace..
Interesting is the Greek word Paralam'bano
The Greek-Dutch dictionary of this word said how it is written here in this context: to take up ...
Another argue:
1Cor 15:51-56
51 Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep; but we shall all be changed
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality
this is a mystery.. It is not a secret.. but the Lord Him self revealed it to Paul..
We have to understand some... because actually this is not an easy text.. Because what will happen... if there is no rapture?
If Jesus is coming back.. and He put His feet on the Mt Olive well.. the Bible teach us, in Isaiah, and Zach that we are mortal people.. The world isn't perfect (see for example Is 65:20, and Zach 14:17.. Here we aren't talking about the New Jerusalem.. But the old Jerusalem.. the city like it is now.
To understand everything clear and 'honest' we have to watch the at the OT.. and we have to watch the meaning of the Trumpet.. Or in the Hebrew it is called the Shofar...
I will go further on this subject an other time.. because I, if I am going to about this part... and the rapture.. I think the message would be to long. And I can show you a Jewish 'look' at it..
Is it possible a kind of rapture? Yes in my eye's it is possible.. when we looked at Henoch and Eliah. So yes it is possible...
There will be a resurrection of the saints who will receive their glorified body when they are caught up.
The tribulation period will be for 7 years,which God will give the world their way to go against the truth so God can put their kingdom down.
The saints will be in the tribulation for the Bible says that the saints will not be united with Christ until the antichrist claims to be God and makes war against the saints.
The saints will be caught up to be with Jesus and be off this earth and the wrath of Gof will be poured upon the heathen.
The whole world will go against the Jews,who then will know that Jesus is their Messiah,and Jesus will come back with His saints and put down their kingdom and rule the earth with His saints over one sixth of the world that fought against the Jews.
The saints will be in the tribulation period and be caught up to be with Jesus and then come back with Jesus to fight at the battle of armageddon.
Matt
The tribulation period will be for 7 years,which God will give the world their way to go against the truth so God can put their kingdom down.
The saints will be in the tribulation for the Bible says that the saints will not be united with Christ until the antichrist claims to be God and makes war against the saints.
The saints will be caught up to be with Jesus and be off this earth and the wrath of Gof will be poured upon the heathen.
The whole world will go against the Jews,who then will know that Jesus is their Messiah,and Jesus will come back with His saints and put down their kingdom and rule the earth with His saints over one sixth of the world that fought against the Jews.
The saints will be in the tribulation period and be caught up to be with Jesus and then come back with Jesus to fight at the battle of armageddon.
Matt
D
About Mt 24 and the rapture. Mt 24, isn't 'the prove' chapter for the rapture.. it is more...
Further.. like the first coming in the world.. it was a mystery too.. The Jews didn't expect that the King Messiah would come like a slave. Yes there where some.. but the most of them didn't believe it. They didn't saw it.
To understand all... what is happen.. we have actually know what we believe. And what are the consequence...
We can say.. no or yes there is a rapture.. but what is the consequence..if you say what you believe....
Further.. like the first coming in the world.. it was a mystery too.. The Jews didn't expect that the King Messiah would come like a slave. Yes there where some.. but the most of them didn't believe it. They didn't saw it.
To understand all... what is happen.. we have actually know what we believe. And what are the consequence...
We can say.. no or yes there is a rapture.. but what is the consequence..if you say what you believe....
M
I'll tell you the difference Phil, the documentation and confirmation time and time again in the Bible it what has been posted in this thread.
The Bible has left no doubt whatsoever in my mind and it is such a wonderful thing to stay within the simplicity in which Christ taught on the subject.
There is no shame in teaching Gods word boldly with confidence on this subject.
The Bible has left no doubt whatsoever in my mind and it is such a wonderful thing to stay within the simplicity in which Christ taught on the subject.
There is no shame in teaching Gods word boldly with confidence on this subject.
Hi motkre,
I don't doubt God's word.. it is correct... What Iw as saying really was that what is our understanding of that.
Amilleninism, premillenianism, postmillenianism all have adherents to these stances,,, and all say that it can be proved in Scripture... I believe in one of those stances.. yet others will believe in any of the 3, either with a pre raptur, mid rapture and post rapture.. thay all can't be right?
In Love
Phil
M
Ok I understand Phil, this is the the purpose of this thread. To take a look at the verses and discuss as to why we believe what we believe from those verses.
It gets so easily sidetracked with comments like it "doesn't matter to me" or "its not important" or "just trust God"
What does just trust God look like to me? Doing our best to understand what He took the time to write to us. I do think some will come to the truth at the end, those that can't study the word due to handicap or whatever. But if you are able to study and just roll with the attitude it doesn't matter and I don't have to take heed when Christ told me to take heed then there is a danger. How can one love the Lord with all his heart and mind yet ignore His words?
This is not all directed at you Phil but to some of the other comments.
It gets so easily sidetracked with comments like it "doesn't matter to me" or "its not important" or "just trust God"
What does just trust God look like to me? Doing our best to understand what He took the time to write to us. I do think some will come to the truth at the end, those that can't study the word due to handicap or whatever. But if you are able to study and just roll with the attitude it doesn't matter and I don't have to take heed when Christ told me to take heed then there is a danger. How can one love the Lord with all his heart and mind yet ignore His words?
This is not all directed at you Phil but to some of the other comments.
J
Dude becarful of calling something false, I know you quoted about being aware of false teachers but I also look at this with people who try to tear down everything becarful ur not the false teacher, If you don't believe in the Rapture then explain this verse? I'm not talkin to the guy that posted this quote i'm just useing it, But why would you think that a God that we say is so loveing and holy would make use go through the tribulation? what would be the point of it?
D
Mike, it is never my purpose to insult you. And yes I know you did a lot of work... If I did that with my posting.. really I am sorry.
For you it is maybe 15 minutes to read.. But for me it cost me some more..You sent a complete Chapter from Mt 24 with your notes.. and for you all what you wrote is relevant.. Well for me what you wrote a lot is not relevant.. with the subject. Because Mt 24 is not the prove chapter for a rapture or not. I know you disagree with me.But I have to say, I did read your posting.
The Bible is long to read.. and I don't read the Bible in a day... even I can't read it in two days... Even when we do a study about a subject...of the Bible it can cost your days.. maybe weeks.. So I think you missed the comparison.
I sent you really my apology.
For you it is maybe 15 minutes to read.. But for me it cost me some more..You sent a complete Chapter from Mt 24 with your notes.. and for you all what you wrote is relevant.. Well for me what you wrote a lot is not relevant.. with the subject. Because Mt 24 is not the prove chapter for a rapture or not. I know you disagree with me.But I have to say, I did read your posting.
The Bible is long to read.. and I don't read the Bible in a day... even I can't read it in two days... Even when we do a study about a subject...of the Bible it can cost your days.. maybe weeks.. So I think you missed the comparison.
I sent you really my apology.
M
No apologies needed,
Again no real dialog going on here.
This is not how to have a conversation just to say everything you wrote wasn't relevant to me.
You address no verses specifically or leave your take as to why this or that was irrelevant.
Leave no one the wiser.
Its clear from your very first post in here that you don't know for certain whats going to happen.
This does not mean everyone is lost on the subject or should stay lost on the subject.
Maybe it would be better for you to start another thread for those who want to stay in the dark.
Christ told you in 24 exactly how it was going to happen so to say it isn't relevant is pretty silly.
Again no real dialog going on here.
This is not how to have a conversation just to say everything you wrote wasn't relevant to me.
You address no verses specifically or leave your take as to why this or that was irrelevant.
Leave no one the wiser.
Its clear from your very first post in here that you don't know for certain whats going to happen.
This does not mean everyone is lost on the subject or should stay lost on the subject.
Maybe it would be better for you to start another thread for those who want to stay in the dark.
Christ told you in 24 exactly how it was going to happen so to say it isn't relevant is pretty silly.
Last edited by a moderator:
D
Hoi Miktre..
It is true, there is no dialogue.. because if people aren't agree with you.. you lost your love..
Or actually like I wrote earlier.. I missed that by your posting. For me it is clear that you don't wanted to listen but pull your ideas.. because you think you understand a lot.. But unfortunately I think you missed a lot of points.
Like I see your posting I can't see light in it.. Sorry.. No light, no love.. And it is true.. it is better for you, me and the rest.. that I don't respond at your posting. I try to answer with respect to you.. but I don't see any respect from your side... I am not here to fight with the Bible.. and for you I wish you the Blessing of Him who Saved us, Jesus from Nazareth.
It is true, there is no dialogue.. because if people aren't agree with you.. you lost your love..
Or actually like I wrote earlier.. I missed that by your posting. For me it is clear that you don't wanted to listen but pull your ideas.. because you think you understand a lot.. But unfortunately I think you missed a lot of points.Like I see your posting I can't see light in it.. Sorry.. No light, no love.. And it is true.. it is better for you, me and the rest.. that I don't respond at your posting. I try to answer with respect to you.. but I don't see any respect from your side... I am not here to fight with the Bible.. and for you I wish you the Blessing of Him who Saved us, Jesus from Nazareth.
Last edited:
M
Hoi Miktre..
It is true, there is no dialogue.. because if people aren't agree with you.. you lost your love.. Or actually like I wrote earlier.. I missed that by your posting. For me it is clear that you don't wanted to listen but pull your ideas.. because you think you understand a lot.. But unfortunately I think you missed a lot of points.
Like I see your posting I can't see light in it.. Sorry.. No light, no love.. And it is true.. it is better for you, me and the rest.. that I don't respond at your posting. I try to answer with respect to you.. but I don't see any respect from your side... I am not here to fight with the Bible.. and for you I wish you the Blessing of Him who Saved us, Jesus from Nazareth.
It is true, there is no dialogue.. because if people aren't agree with you.. you lost your love..
Or actually like I wrote earlier.. I missed that by your posting. For me it is clear that you don't wanted to listen but pull your ideas.. because you think you understand a lot.. But unfortunately I think you missed a lot of points.Like I see your posting I can't see light in it.. Sorry.. No light, no love.. And it is true.. it is better for you, me and the rest.. that I don't respond at your posting. I try to answer with respect to you.. but I don't see any respect from your side... I am not here to fight with the Bible.. and for you I wish you the Blessing of Him who Saved us, Jesus from Nazareth.
Again maybe you should start your own thread where nobody actually has any answers and no truths are found. Seriously, start another were you can play, you won't see me posting in it.
Last edited by a moderator:
P
Growing up in the Church I was always taught that when Jesus comes back, He's coming back and that's it, you better be prepared. It's not up until recently that I've heard about this 1st coming-2nd coming stuff. When I first heard it, it made absolutely no sense to me, and I was shocked.
The danger is that people will think: "oh, He's gonna come twice, so I can do whatever I want, then when He comes the first time I'll know it's time to accept Him"
It gives this idea of a second chance, very, very, VERY dangerous teaching.
The danger is that people will think: "oh, He's gonna come twice, so I can do whatever I want, then when He comes the first time I'll know it's time to accept Him"
It gives this idea of a second chance, very, very, VERY dangerous teaching.